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So, Tebow... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Eminence
- Start date
pittstownkiller
Footballguy
It seems ridiculous that he couldn't even find the field for the Jets, especially after their season.
EBF
Footballguy
The fact that the Broncos shipped him away for peanuts and that he can't even get on the field with the Jets suggests that the people who see him up close in practice everyday don't think so. He's just not that good. A guy who thrived in a gimmicky college offense, but doesn't have the tools for the next level. Those types are a dime a dozen.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Rex Ryan was just being a ####... I think Sanchez was getting him donuts or something?He deserved to see the field and the Jets just sabotaged him... I don't think he is anything special, but he should've gotten a chance. There are probably 75-80 QB's I would've switched out for Sanchez this season.
Warrior
Footballguy
You mean the same guy who took over a team with no hope for the playoffs, one where the coaches completely gave up and traded away their best WR for peanuts, and carried them on his back to the playoffs? Including 4 or 5 4th quarter/overtime comebacks? And then beat the Steelers in the playoffs?That guy doesn't have tools to thrive outside of a gimmicky college offense?lol. Gotta love stat geeks who know very little about the game.
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EBF
Footballguy
You've gotta be trolling.Tebow didn't carry Denver on his back. He played pretty poorly overall and fluked his way to a win in a couple notable games.It's not just stat geeks saying he's garbage. His own coaches don't rate him. The Jets are desperate for an upgrade at QB and they haven't even given him a chance. He can't beat out Sanchez and McElroy. Kinda says it all. The guy just isn't a pro caliber passer.
Sweet Feet
Footballguy
Fail to mention that Denver had to play a certain style in all phases to get into the playoffs with Tebow but they werent good to begin with while Orton was at the helm. Take that a lot of ways but it worked. The Jets just didnt seem to ever intend on giving Tebow a chance. He's not a good practice player and they knew that but the excuse to not play him is ridiculous. The Jets paid Sanchez because he was butt hurt they looked at Manning and now they look even more ridiculous. Pride before the fall. Tebow may not be good but I guarantee he wouldnt have turned the ball over like Sanchez which costed the Jets any chance. And dont tell me Mcelroy beat out Tebow. He was #3 ALL YEAR. Tebow wont get a shot because the Jets coaches wont hear the end of it if Tebow actually won games. Rex Ryan can say he thought Sanchez gave the Jets the best chance to win but the tape doesnt lie. Ryan along with Tannenbaum should be fired among others. I also think Johnson looks like a complete idiot who cared more about headlines than winning with what he allowed to happen.
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Gottabesweet
Footballguy
Honestly, I never got the hate, the guy works hard, throws an ugly ball and wins, granted it was a great D he had, the Jets didn't use them because of ego's on that staff. I'd love him in Chan Gaileys offense with Spiller and maybe draft a guy. We run mostly 3-4 WR sets anyways.
I cringe when I watch ESPN, I get it Cris Carter you hate the guy. You don't need to consistatly tell me.
I cringe when I watch ESPN, I get it Cris Carter you hate the guy. You don't need to consistatly tell me.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
It also doesn't help that Rex made him gain 20 pounds for punt coverage because he never wanted it a problem from the start. I'd love him on the Bills, Fitz can't throw deep to save his life, Neither can Tebow, put him with Spiller in the pistol which we run all the time or spread. I'll even try Vick at this point.
Most of the coaches in the league don't want to change their already installed offenses to suite this guy. It took John Fox weeks to do that when he had Tebow.
Most of the coaches in the league don't want to change their already installed offenses to suite this guy. It took John Fox weeks to do that when he had Tebow.
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glumpy
breeze
This. The guy's got an arm, just not the style people want. He wins, it seems so far, and in the right place he sells. Shoulda gone to Jax.
EBF
Footballguy
Okay, but why would the Jets have signed him if they didn't think he could help? It's not like there's some league-wide conspiracy to keep Tebow down. The coaches who work with him just don't trust him. The simple answer is because he's just not a very good quarterback. If he was, why wouldn't New York play him? They have no vested interest in keeping him on the bench if they think he can win games for them. So they must not think he's an upgrade over their other options. And given how bad those other options are, that's a pretty harsh indictment.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Tebow didn't carry the team, the defense did. If the D didn't keep it close for the first 52 minutes of every game, then Tebow wouldn't have been able to even be close enough to try it. IIRC, Thomas pretty much made those TDs/yards with great individual effort. Tebow doesn't give up and gives it his all, that much should be very clear. But he isn't even in the top 5 players that helped the Broncos win those games last year, much less carrying them.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
People don't like the way he carries himself, He's overly a great guy and for whatever reason the way he carries himself and talks bothers people, Again it comes down to ego's - Rex Ryan could care less about winning than keeping his tough guy culture in NY. Sanchez should have been done long ago. Their system is for a game manager, tebow isn't that, He's a risk/reward type guy- Spread offense, run pass option with explosive backs and WR's and a solid D.
Even the Jags have more of those quick solid WR's than the Jets ever did with their slow big backs and useless WR'S.
The guy will win games in a spread offense system. Someone will give him a chance and people will freak when he goes 11-23 156 yards 1-1 and 40 rushing yards but they win 20-13
Kitrick Taylor
Footballguy
Tebow needs to go to a place where he can be a backup for 2-3 years and actually learn how to be a NFL passer. He needs to get quality coaching. He's certainly not getting that in NY, and I'm not sure how much he got in Denver either. A team like GB or Miami would be good. The next team should immediately name him the #3 QB, and say he's not going to be a gadget guy. The plan is to develop him into a real NFL QB. IMO that's his best chance for long term success.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
Then why did the D randomly get alot better when Tebow played than Orton? Guys may not like the way he plays but know he is a great leader, has command in the huddle and will fight. He has a Ray Lewis like atmosphere. Obviously all his accomplishments came in college but they fought and knew that if the game was close he'd win.I love how the D carried them for the whole game is always the argument, look around 90 PERCENT of NFL games are 1 possession games and a few plays here or there. Why not want to put it in a guy that makes those plays more often or not when its needed. Who cares if he wins the game in the last 8 minutes vs first 52. Theirs alot of average QB's and he's one of them but I'd rather have him with the way he fights than alot of these guys that trot out for NFL teams.
EBF
Footballguy
Correlation vs. causation. Tebow played on a winning team in Denver. This does not mean that Denver won because of Tebow.
I'm not going to waste any more time arguing against him. He's already gotten exponentially more ink here and elsewhere than he deserves. Everything I said in the Tebow thread last year still applies, except now there's the added stain of yet another coaching staff deeming Tebow unworthy.
I'm not going to waste any more time arguing against him. He's already gotten exponentially more ink here and elsewhere than he deserves. Everything I said in the Tebow thread last year still applies, except now there's the added stain of yet another coaching staff deeming Tebow unworthy.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
Yes a whole coaching staff that will be turned over. Whose the unworthy one. Denver went out and got Peyton Manning. Why because he's a HOF QB. Haters going to hate.
pizzatyme
Footballguy
I don't know that I'd base anything about Tebow's abilities based on the Jets offensive coaching staff. WTH have they done successful over the last several years?
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fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
**Tebow played on a winning team after he became QB. He walked into an awful situation when they were 1-4.Not saying the guy is a stud, but he should've gotten a shot in NY since they brought him in and their QB was awful.
mjr
Footballguy
There were times this season when Sanchez looked so bad they pulled him out and sent Tebow in. Tebow looked even worse out there than Sanchez did. How do people think the third string QB even got into the game this year? Wasn't because of injury. It's because neither one of these guys are starting caliber QBs. Either one MIGHT be good if you give them 10 years on the sidelines, but bottom line is that they ain't doing it right now and neither belong out there.
It's time for a big turnover in NY (off the field, not on the field as usual....) Staff, players... everywhere.
It's time for a big turnover in NY (off the field, not on the field as usual....) Staff, players... everywhere.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
The Denver defense ranked 23rd in the NFL counting only the games that Tebow started (25th the whole season). Yeah, how could anyone not win with that brilliant defense
Meanwhile, 6 of the top 10 teams defensively missed the playoffs.
A great winning team that was 5-16 leading up to Tebow taking over. By some magical coincidence, that group of losers that had people considering Denver as one of the leading candidates in the "suck for luck" campaign transmorphed into a good team the exact same moment that Tebow came in by some otherworldly coincidence. Is that your argument?I know I already harp a lot on FFers having a short memory, but it boggles my mind how people completely forget how absurdley awful everyone thought Denver was after week 5 of last year. Then they change quarterbacks and start winning and magically they were a great team all along.
Sweet Feet
Footballguy
I can tell you dont get it. The defense did well because a lot of times the Broncos put offenses in long field position. The team was based around a boring.. time of possesion.. field game which Denver used in the end. It was a team game. They kept the game close and made plays at the end. Tebow made plays to help so dont discredit him.In the end... it comes down to this... Turnovers win and lose games. Sanchez has 50 in the last 2 seasons I believe. The team stuck with him because of $$ and pride which failed.In terms of teammates not liking Tebow.. what do they expect? He was a national champion, heisman trophy winner, great person that played QB for a team that made the playoffs.. so yea.. he's going to get attention.. GET OVER IT. Last thing... You had teammates coming out with negativity about Tebow without attaching their names when the guy didnt even play.. I wonder why.. The Jets are full of losers and self righteous idiots is why. Happened last year and now this year. No surprise here.
EBF
Footballguy
There are a lot of other variables at work though. The Broncos didn't draft Von Miller until 2011 and Demaryius Thomas didn't come back from injury until about the same time as when Tebow got his chance. Having a couple genuine impact players like that will go a long way towards making an average team good. And Denver wasn't even that amazing that year. They backed into a playoff spot at 8-8 and won a lucky game in overtime against a pretty mediocre and banged up Steelers team. It's pretty clear that professional evaluators don't rate Tebow highly at all. He only fetched a pair of late draft picks on the open market. That's a pittance compared to what teams spent on guys like Palmer, Kolb, Schaub, Cutler, and Feeley. If that weren't bad enough, Tebow has thus far been unable to crack the starting lineup on a team with a bad quarterback situation. The people who think this guy has a long term future as a starter in the league have been watching too much ESPN. He's a zero.
Sweet Feet
Footballguy
DT had 4 good games last year.. he was wildly inconsistent and dropped balls along with being injured. He was a big upside player that needed time to develop. Obviously Tebow wasnt a good fit for DT. Besides the point. Denver wasnt very good like you said.Getting to the bolded.. Tebow wasnt going to command any high picks. I dont think anyone with sense thought that. Tebow didnt crack the Jets lineup based on pride and $$ owed to Sanchez. Let's be real here EBF.. Tebow didnt play because if he did and won games, the whole front office would look dumber than they already are because of the Sanchez deal. Tebow isnt good but he wouldnt have turned the ball over like Sanchez which wouldve given the team a better shot. I dont think anyone is denying that Tebow isnt ideal. Sanchez got his shot and was horrible. He shouldve been yanked. Tebow will be out of the league in 2-3 years Im guessing but to say the Jets shouldnt have given him a shot to what was being put on the field is crazy.
I usually agree with a lot of what you have to say on player evaluation but you're wrong here in terms of player management. I wont comment on the Steelers being mediocre... they got in and lost. They were the better team and got beat.. oh well. Stop discrediting Denver.
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EBF
Footballguy
I don't buy that. The Jets would've looked like geniuses if Tebow had taken the starting job and won a bunch of games for them. His price tag was so low because there was no interest. There was no interest because he isn't very good. Completed just 46.5% of his passes last year for 6.38 yards per attempt. If not for his college reputation and the 2011 W-L record (which came with razor thin margins against a very soft schedule consisting mostly of non-playoff teams), the cult of Tebow would've croaked a long time ago. He's no better than a guy like Tarvaris Jackson or Josh McCown. Probably worse, actually. But people will probably keep pumping him up long after he's been put out to pasture by a league that's indifferent to his alleged talents. There's just something about him that inspires belief in fans and pundits. Actual NFL decision makers clearly aren't as impressed.
Sweet Feet
Footballguy
we'll just agree to disagree on that first part.
Tebow wouldnt be my QB if you put a gun to my head but Sanchez was horrible and needed to be pulled weeks ago. Sanchez got that contract and obviously the brass wasnt going to pull him at all or at least until it was over.
To be fair.. guys like Brady Quinn..Weeden, Lindley, Skelton, Ponder, Chad Henne, Jake Locker and Ryan Fitzpatrick are starting in the league. The QB position is thin and not only that but guys that arent ready are being thrown into the fire. Tebow isnt a starting QB but is Mark Sanchez? No.
NFL decision makers have tons of guys on the roster that stink... TO is on the street yet guys like Braylon Edwards who openly call his former team management morons gets a job a week later. If that isnt comical idk what is. Not every NFL executive is about winning....
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Sweet Feet
Footballguy
he's not elite and to play Tebow means you have to plan everything around him... offense,defense, ST. You have to have a coaching staff that will buy in and thats dangerous. Jags coach (Murlarkey) (Sp?) didnt want him because if it goes wrong then thats a year off your coaching life.
fatness
Footballguy
Teams don't owe Tebow a starting job, or a shot at one. His first team traded him cheap and his second team is going to trade or cut him. He hasn't earned it.
The sense of entitlement among Tebow fans is extraordinary.
Tebow's last 5 starts.
Loss 41-23
Loss 40-14
Loss 7-3
Win 29-23
Loss 45-10
The sense of entitlement among Tebow fans is extraordinary.
Tebow's last 5 starts.
Loss 41-23
Loss 40-14
Loss 7-3
Win 29-23
Loss 45-10
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asuterlowe
Footballguy
Sweet Feet
Footballguy
so you wouldve stuck with Sanchez at a turnover rate of #1 the last 2 years? This isnt about Tebow... its about how bad Sanchez was... almost convinced people are missing the point.
fatness
Footballguy
So the topic isn't "So, Tebow... Can he become a better passer?"
Sweet Feet
Footballguy
9 years and thats what you bring? Why this place sucks now.'fatness said:
8 threads based on the same BS topic... follow accordingly
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Machiavelli
Footballguy
Tebow isn't playing because IMO he isn't that good. He does bring an interesting skill set but one that will not be a stRting QB, barring injuries again. I like Tim and would love for him to have a shot but the reality is thT he isn't very good. Those watchingbDenver this year can see that Denver has a dominating defense and the WR ply HS been very good. The reason that Denver won all of those games in Denver was not because of the heroics of Tenow but in spite of him. He typically played a miserable 3 quarters, then in the fourth launched some bombs nd got relatively lucky. The defense played lights out and they deserve those wins.
As for NY, I think Sanchez should of been benched weeks ago nd Tebow given a try. However, Rex maybe fighting to save his job, nd as much as a jack@$& he is, Tebow, in his mind, doesn't give him the best shot. Indeed, no one from the organization who has seen him believes he is the ideal guy.
As for NY, I think Sanchez should of been benched weeks ago nd Tebow given a try. However, Rex maybe fighting to save his job, nd as much as a jack@$& he is, Tebow, in his mind, doesn't give him the best shot. Indeed, no one from the organization who has seen him believes he is the ideal guy.
Tebow will win wherever he ends up next year.
Yes he will get better as a passer because he is determined and realizes that he has to improve.
The guy was essentially a rookie when he took the 1-5 Broncos to the playoffs and beat the Steelers in the first round.
He still has only 16 career starts including the 2 playoff starts
Yes he will get better as a passer because he is determined and realizes that he has to improve.
The guy was essentially a rookie when he took the 1-5 Broncos to the playoffs and beat the Steelers in the first round.
He still has only 16 career starts including the 2 playoff starts
Chaka
Footballguy
I don't see how you could possibly know that.It seems far more likely that the reason they brought in Tebow is exclusively because they were hoping he would have a positive impact on a locker room that had gotten out of control over the past few seasons. Clearly they didn't bring him in to be a QB.'Gottabesweet said:
jurb26
Footballguy
I agree, he does seem to have great work ethic and drive. Yet, despite 3 years in the NFL he has not gotten better. Therefor my answer is no, he will not. I give him a pass on college because they didn't try to train him properly in this area. Though in reality they did his senior year....'Eminence said:
Chaka
Footballguy
You don't just change mechanics at 25 years old. He has been playing this style his whole career and it is very unlikely that he will ever be able to deconstruct his style and completely rebuild it. His delivery is slow and terribly inaccurate and no matter how much you try to change it, during the heat of action he will revert to his old style.
His absolute high water upside as a passer is probably something like Byron Leftwich (another guy with a big slow release). So, if he maxes out it's not terrible but not really starting caliber either.
His absolute high water upside as a passer is probably something like Byron Leftwich (another guy with a big slow release). So, if he maxes out it's not terrible but not really starting caliber either.
Chaka
Footballguy
I could see him doing well in a system geared for him but I doubt it would be long term success. It would probably go the way of the wildcat pretty quickly. There is also the problem of having a viable backup in case he got injured.He really should consider going to the CFL, it would be the best opportunity to showcase his skills and, if he's successful, possibly get a legit NFL opportunity in a couple years.
pizzatyme
Footballguy
Tiger Woods did it. Maybe he hasn't had a quality QB coach in the NFL?! I mean Jim Caldwell is an OC for goodness sakes! He's never called an offensive play his adult life. There are bad coaches just like there are bad players.
EBF
Footballguy
Yea, I think people really overrate the extent to which playing QB is a learnable skill. Every player has a natural ceiling when it comes to things like poise, accuracy, and decision making under duress. Just because a guy is tall with a strong arm doesn't mean he "has all the tools" to be a great quarterback. Tebow is just an above average athlete with poor mental talent. Similar to someone like Josh McCown or Tarvaris Jackson. He won't be able to "learn" how to play quarterback any more than they did.
jurb26
Footballguy
This will be the 4th coach who has tried.1. UF his senior year.2. Some specialist hired prior to the NFL draft and combine.3. Den.4. NYJ.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
But Tiger Woods already had a "good but not fundamentally perfect" swing. Tim Tebow has to get to "good" before he can start thinking about being fundamentally perfect.
Buffaloes
Footballguy
Do you remember how Denver was winning most of its games last year? BTW, Tebow had the exact same record over the last 5 games of the season as the Orton-led Broncos had over the 1st 5 games of the season...1-4. In the games Denver did win, the defense played very well and Prater and Colquitt played like All Pros. In the games Denver lost, the d gave up points early and the offense was unable to come from behind because the gimmicky, run-heavy offense (which was necessary due to TT's limitations) was neutralized & unable to forge a comeback via the pass. So, from that standpoint, the team did go about as far as the defense could lead.'FreeBaGeL said:The Denver defense ranked 23rd in the NFL counting only the games that Tebow started (25th the whole season). Yeah, how could anyone not win with that brilliant defense'mad sweeney said:A great winning team that was 5-16 leading up to Tebow taking over. By some magical coincidence, that group of losers that had people considering Denver as one of the leading candidates in the "suck for luck" campaign transmorphed into a good team the exact same moment that Tebow came in by some otherworldly coincidence. Is that your argument?I know I already harp a lot on FFers having a short memory, but it boggles my mind how people completely forget how absurdley awful everyone thought Denver was after week 5 of last year. Then they change quarterbacks and start winning and magically they were a great team all along.'EBF said:
TT has had teams and QB coaches like Mazzone and Bartkowski constantly trying to turn him into a better passer since he entered the league. Not sure what else can be done. In addition to not being a very good passer he struggles to read defenses quickly enough to run a pro-style offense. The Denver O worked because of the formidable run game and a gameplan that didn't require TT to play in a pro-style offense.'Eminence said:
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Chaka
Footballguy
Golf <> FootballSeriously there isn't even remotely a comparison between taking your time to mentally go over your mechanics as you set up your shot and running like hell from JJ Watt while trying to deliver the ball to your WRs.
Chaka
Footballguy
I wouldn't say that he has poor mental talent. In fact everything I have seen and heard indicates that he is a football savvy guy with a solid work ethic. I just don't think that you can change something so fundamental about a player as his delivery such that it will hold up under pressure (i.e. when Jared Allen is trying to take your head off).I also don't think that accuracy is something that you can teach. Sure with a ton of hard work you may be able to improve by a couple percentage points but with Tebow we are talking about turning from 48% passer to a 65% passer and I think that is simply impossible.
