Some thoughts on Andy Reid (1 Viewer)

[Jason Wood]

Over the years I've found myself defending Andy Reid to my buddies and fellow Eagles fans quite a bit. Does he make infuriating decisions? Sure. Are some of his in game moves bothersome? Yep. Can his reliance on the pass at all costs drive you nuts? You bet. And while I don't dispute that Reid can be maddening, I also have generally said to my fellow Eagles fans that they should be careful what they wish for.

Before the Birds demolition of the Cowboys yesterday, I would say that at least 50% of Eagles fans I know personally wanted Reid gone. And if you listen to Philly sports radio, you would think it was 80%+ that wanted him gone. I suspect that some folks have backed off a bit on their Reid hatred.

But the fact is he's just completed his first decade as an NFL head coach. And looking at those 10 years, it's very tough for me to imagine that we could find a new head coach that would match, much less exceed, Reid's accomplishments.

To wit...

Most Wins, Regular Season [1999-2008]

(1) -- Indianapolis Colts -- 113 wins [11.3 per season]

(2) -- New England Patriots -- 110 wins [11.0 per season]

(3) -- Pittsburgh Steelers -- 100 wins [10.0 per season]

(4) -- Philadelphia Eagles -- 97 wins [9.7 per season]

(5) -- Tennessee Titans -- 96 wins [9.6 per season]

(6) -- Green Bay Packers -- 92 wins [9.2 per season]

(7) -- Denver Broncos -- 91 wins [9.1 per season]

(7) -- Baltimore Ravens -- 91 wins [9.1 per season]

But the next thing you'll notice is that the three teams ahead of Philly all have Super Bowl titles to their credit.

So here is a list of the playoff wins, by franchise, over Reid’s decade…

Most Wins, Playoffs [1999-2008]

(1) – New England Patriots – 14 wins, 3 Super Bowls

(2) – Philadelphia Eagles – 8 wins, 0 Super Bowls

(3) – Indianapolis Colts – 7 wins, 1 Super Bowl

(3) – Pittsburgh Steelers – 7 wins, 1 Super Bowl

(5) – New York Giants – 6 wins, 1 Super Bowl

(5) – St. Louis Rams – 6 wins, 1 Super Bowl

(7) – Baltimore Ravens – 5 wins, 1 Super Bowl

(7) – Carolina Panthers – 5 wins, 0 Super Bowls

(7) – Tennessee Titans – 5 wins, 0 Super Bowls

So in Reid's tenure as a head coach, he's won more regular season games than any other NFC team, and won more playoff games than anyone outside of New England. The absence of a SB victory certainly stings, but let's not forget it wasn't long ago that Tony Dungy and Bill Cowher were in similar positions. And guys like Jeff Fisher, Marty Schottenheimer and John Fox are still looking for their first titles.

My point being...fellow Eagles fans...even if we lose to Minnesota this week, just be careful what you wish for.

 

[wadegarrett]

We'll take him in Cleveland.

 

[tommyGunZ]

"BRINGING IT HOME FOR ANDY REID" just doesn't have the same effect.

On a serious note, Iggles fans who believe Philly would be better off with any of the re-treads available are in fantasy land. There are few coaches out there who are proven winners Reid is one of them. Bill Cowher isn't any better than Reid b/c of one win.

When you've taken your team to the Super Bowl in the past, and you're currently going to the playoffs, anyone suggesting your job is in jeopardy is crazy.

 

[Jason Wood]

We'll take him in Cleveland.

I'm sure you would He's not going anywhere, but I can imagine that if the Eagles lay an egg against Minnesota the noise that he SHOULD be fired will be deafening around Philly; and it shouldn't be.

 

[wadegarrett]

We'll take him in Cleveland.

I'm sure you would He's not going anywhere, but I can imagine that if the Eagles lay an egg against Minnesota the noise that he SHOULD be fired will be deafening around Philly; and it shouldn't be.

Part of me wanted Philly to lose yesterday so there'd be a chance he'd be foolishly fired.Then I remembered how much I hate the Cowboys and that thought disappeared.

 

[TCFF]

You might be right, but you have to wonder with the tallent that the Eagles have if more could not have been done with this group over the regular season. As long as he has been a head coach some mistakes simply are not excusable. For example:

1. The worst clock management in the league.

2. A run to pass ratio that is often laughable.

As a GM, I generally think he has done a good job, but some mistakes are also really glaring:

1. Having no kick or punt returner on the roster last year.

2. Having no legitimate fullback on the roster this year.

Andy Reid has done a good job over the last 10 years, but he has not won a super bowl and from the last three years you can get a sense that his best is behind him and that the league may have passed him by a bit. Still, he is not going anywhere even if Eagles fans think that Lurie should take a risk with another coach. I just hope he never calls the plays in a game again. That would help a great deal, and while I thnk it is optomistic, it could help with the clock management issue in the long run too.

 

[Jason Wood]

"BRINGING IT HOME FOR ANDY REID" just doesn't have the same effect.On a serious note, Iggles fans who believe Philly would be better off with any of the re-treads available are in fantasy land. There are few coaches out there who are proven winners Reid is one of them. Bill Cowher isn't any better than Reid b/c of one win.When you've taken your team to the Super Bowl in the past, and you're currently going to the playoffs, anyone suggesting your job is in jeopardy is crazy.

Hey TGunz,I don't think many would suggest his job is in jeopardy, but PLENTY of Eagles fans would argue it should be. While I get that every team gets frustrated at their coaches and players [heck, I have ripped Andy plenty this year, much more than in years past], I think it's all about perspective.I got to thinking about this when discussing the firing of Mangini and my thread on whether Shanahan should be on the hot seat. I responded to Joe in the Mangini thread that the decision to fire Mangini will be judged on the success of his replacement. You can never know how things will turn out with a new coach, and I don't think organizations should be afraid to pull the trigger. Certainly Bucs fans gave up one of the league's ultimate winners in Tony Dungy, and the immediate results were "worth it" in that Gruden came in and got them a Super Bowl. As an Eagles fan, i would be first in line to cheer a replacement coach who delivered a ring. But in retrospect, was Gruden really the "better coach" than Dungy? Hard to say. And that's a case of a successful replacement. Think of how many coaches were bounced for "fresh starts" and the teams regressed.

 

[JuniorNB]

You might be right, but you have to wonder with the tallent that the Eagles have if more could not have been done with this group over the regular season. As long as he has been a head coach some mistakes simply are not excusable. For example:1. The worst clock management in the league.2. A run to pass ratio that is often laughable.As a GM, I generally think he has done a good job, but some mistakes are also really glaring:1. Having no kick or punt returner on the roster last year.2. Having no legitimate fullback on the roster this year.Andy Reid has done a good job over the last 10 years, but he has not won a super bowl and from the last three years you can get a sense that his best is behind him and that the league may have passed him by a bit. Still, he is not going anywhere even if Eagles fans think that Lurie should take a risk with another coach. I just hope he never calls the plays in a game again. That would help a great deal, and while I thnk it is optomistic, it could help with the clock management issue in the long run too.

Reid's a good GM and a good coach. He's a bad play caller, however. He has to permanantly hand that job off.As for claiming he didn't win a Super Bowl over the last ten years, neither did a lot of other teams. The Eagles made it into one and most teams have not even done that.The most impressive thing about the Reid tenure is that the Eagles are always good. They're not always great, but they're always good. In the parity-era of salary caps and draft picks favoring the worst teams, that's quite an accomplishment.

 

[mudshark]

I love Andy Reid as the Eagles head coach and give him a lot of the credit for turning around the franchise. But most of those impressive post season wins came between 2000-2004. So far they have won 1 playoff game since beating the Falcons in '04 and have been very average since the Super Bowl loss. Yesterday's game was certainly great, but didn't require Reid to make any real decisions such as clock management, half time adjustments or when to challenge a play (the opening drive non-challenge notwithstanding).

I would like to see him stay as coach but not as GM or primary play caller. Its hard to ignore the success they have with a balanced attack.

 

[Boston]

To often we tend to rate people on extremes...either they're great or they're horrible. In Andy Reid's case he's a good but not great coach. He's been a stablizing force that has helped the Eagles remain a contender for the past decade in a league that makes it difficult to remain on top. I think the major issue with Reid is he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes and I'm sure that's what drives some Eagle fans nuts. Yet, for those who want him axed they need to take a step back and realize that the devil you know can be a lot better than the devil you don't know. Andy Reid has been very successful in one of the tougher media/fan markets in the country and that's not an easy task. If he could take a step back and honestly look at what has prevented the Eagles from going the distance he could probably take his coaching to the next level but unfortunately that doesn't look like it's going to happen which may prevent him from ever winning a championship.

 

[Jason Wood]

To often we tend to rate people on extremes...either they're great or they're horrible. In Andy Reid's case he's a good but not great coach. He's been a stablizing force that has helped the Eagles remain a contender for the past decade in a league that makes it difficult to remain on top. I think the major issue with Reid is he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes and I'm sure that's what drives some Eagle fans nuts. Yet, for those who want him axed they need to take a step back and realize that the devil you know can be a lot better than the devil you don't know. Andy Reid has been very successful in one of the tougher media/fan markets in the country and that's not an easy task. If he could take a step back and honestly look at what has prevented the Eagles from going the distance he could probably take his coaching to the next level but unfortunately that doesn't look like it's going to happen which may prevent him from ever winning a championship.

That's exactly what I'm saying Boston. Jeff Fisher is in his 15th season with Tennessee and has zero rings. Bill Cowher went 13 years without a ring in Pittsburgh. Tom Coughlin was dead man walking; a season later he was a Super Bowl champion with long-term job security. It's all about expectations. The tremendous success Andy had early on, going to 4 straight NFC Championship games and a SB appearance, has colored Eagles fans expectations to unrealistic levels IMHO.When I see things like, "the worst clock management in the league" or "ridiculous play-calling", I start realizing just how extreme people tend to get about things. When you look at the rampant mediocrity this league has endured over the last 10 years, and the number of head coaches that have come and gone, it stuns me that anyone would label Andy as the "worst" anything.

 

[rzrback77]

I guess they mean he's the worst at those specific coaching items of the coaches that manage to stay around long enough for people to judge them and remember.

 

[Jason Wood]

I guess they mean he's the worst at those specific coaching items of the coaches that manage to stay around long enough for people to judge them and remember.

That's not generally the context of those declarations though. It's usually a more generalized statement than that; and it's just plain silly.Even now I had a buddy I sit with ping me back on this post and say, "that's all great but I would take 9 1-15 seasons if we could have one Super Bowl." To an extent I get where that kind of response comes from, but I don't think I agree. As a season ticket holder, nothing would be worse than seeing your team be a laughing stock 90% of the time.

 

[Game Time]

I guess they mean he's the worst at those specific coaching items of the coaches that manage to stay around long enough for people to judge them and remember.

That's not generally the context of those declarations though. It's usually a more generalized statement than that; and it's just plain silly.Even now I had a buddy I sit with ping me back on this post and say, "that's all great but I would take 9 1-15 seasons if we could have one Super Bowl." To an extent I get where that kind of response comes from, but I don't think I agree. As a season ticket holder, nothing would be worse than seeing your team be a laughing stock 90% of the time.

Always have been an AR and Mc5 supporter. Been in many arguments with fellow Eagles fans defending them... 10 years of competitive and playoff caliber football basically every year.... Too many fans have been spoiled by that... Would I love a championship... more than you know... but to say my team is competetive each and every year is something I don't take for granted.... Name one fan who hasn't disagreed with their teams coaches more than a few times... Most wins in NfC over last 10 years.. 8 playoff wins.... not too bad.... too many fair weather fans here don't remeber the Ray Rhodes, Kotite years, etc... It's been a great (at times frustrating) ride, that hopefully isn't over for this year!

 

[jasvic]

I would like to see him stay as coach but not as GM or primary play caller. Its hard to ignore the success they have with a balanced attack.

To often we tend to rate people on extremes...either they're great or they're horrible. In Andy Reid's case he's a good but not great coach. He's been a stablizing force that has helped the Eagles remain a contender for the past decade in a league that makes it difficult to remain on top. I think the major issue with Reid is he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes and I'm sure that's what drives some Eagle fans nuts. Yet, for those who want him axed they need to take a step back and realize that the devil you know can be a lot better than the devil you don't know. Andy Reid has been very successful in one of the tougher media/fan markets in the country and that's not an easy task. If he could take a step back and honestly look at what has prevented the Eagles from going the distance he could probably take his coaching to the next level but unfortunately that doesn't look like it's going to happen which may prevent him from ever winning a championship.

These. I think there's a correlation between the first point and the bold in the 2nd. He has too many duties and his hands are in too many places, when he should be concentrating on his primary job, head coach and game manager.Like I said in the Eagles team thread, he should be "asked" to drop the GM and play calling, and if he refuses, then he should be let go. (Obviously, this was before the playoff berth, and that changes a lot) I love him as a coach, I think he's great at getting the players together and keeping them focused, but as we've seen this year his play calling hurts this team much more than it helps. And he hasn't been a bad GM, but I'm of the belief that a coach shouldn't do both, and the majority of the NFL agrees with me.

One last point, people seem to think that if you did let Reid go, the next coach will automatically be a bum or not as good...I don't get this. Sure, you might be taking a chance, but if the current guy isn't getting it done, then a change is needed. Right now, they're lucky to be in the playoffs, hopefully he'll finally learn from his past and make something with it.

 

[mudshark]

I guess they mean he's the worst at those specific coaching items of the coaches that manage to stay around long enough for people to judge them and remember.

That's not generally the context of those declarations though. It's usually a more generalized statement than that; and it's just plain silly.Even now I had a buddy I sit with ping me back on this post and say, "that's all great but I would take 9 1-15 seasons if we could have one Super Bowl." To an extent I get where that kind of response comes from, but I don't think I agree. As a season ticket holder, nothing would be worse than seeing your team be a laughing stock 90% of the time.

How do you rate the Andy Reid from '99-'04 vs. Andy Reid from '05-Present? In the 4 seasons since the Super Bowl, Reid has won 33 games. By comparison, Ray Rhodes won 29 and Kotite won 36 in their 4-year tenures.Certainly Reid has enjoyed more success over his career in Philly than Kotite/Rhodes, but like I mentioned most of his success came 2004 and earlier. During that time, the Eagles had a GM, Modrak, who made the personnel decisions. It was those drafts that made up the Super Bowl team. The Eagles also had a different scouting department which Reid revamped a few years ago.

 

[renesauz]

I've been mostly a supporter of AR over the past few years. I strill believe he's one of the better HC's in the league. More, I think he's also one of the better GM's. It is NOT an easy task to field a highly competitive team year in year out as he has. I also think that many fans underestimate how hard it is to find top coaches, Qb's, or even GM's.

BUT....AR does need to change. He's so in love with his passing schemes that he has become predictable and generally ineffective as a play-caller. The scheme still works...it's his play-calling that's failing. This is proven by the tremendous success enjoyed by the Eagles whenever Marty has taken the play-calling duties over the last couple of seasons, versus some of the worst games imagainable when AR was calling every play.

This is where I start to wonder if some of the fans might be right. If he's so enamored of himself that he can't give over even that small control when it CLEARLY works better for the team...then it's time to go. This isn't something we can determine from where any of us sits (at least not without another year or two of evidance). It's something for Lurie to do.

I'm a die-hard fan, but live in Virginia. I'm not polluted by the local Philly media (which can be ridiculous and are the primary reason so many Philly fans can be so screwed up in their attitudes/ideas)!!!!

Should AR be on the hot seat? No...at least, not yet.....

 

[renesauz]

I guess they mean he's the worst at those specific coaching items of the coaches that manage to stay around long enough for people to judge them and remember.

That's not generally the context of those declarations though. It's usually a more generalized statement than that; and it's just plain silly.Even now I had a buddy I sit with ping me back on this post and say, "that's all great but I would take 9 1-15 seasons if we could have one Super Bowl." To an extent I get where that kind of response comes from, but I don't think I agree. As a season ticket holder, nothing would be worse than seeing your team be a laughing stock 90% of the time.

That makes no sense from a business perspective either. The franchise is far more profitable/marketable as a consistant playoff contender, even if they NEVER win the big one.I want a SB win as much as anyone...but I'll take a consistantly good team over a one year wonder all daylife long.

 

[jasvic]

Simple solution is to ignore the local Philly media. WIP is unlistenable, and the local papers are local papers, I read them when bored at work and rarely take them seriously.

A good leader, whether it be a football team, company or military, surrounds himself with smart people and lets them do what they do best. Those people make you look good and make your job easier. That's what Reid needs to do, let his employees do their job and make him look good.

 

[Rockchild]

Always have been an AR and Mc5 supporter. Been in many arguments with fellow Eagles fans defending them... 10 years of competitive and playoff caliber football basically every year.... Too many fans have been spoiled by that... Would I love a championship... more than you know... but to say my team is competetive each and every year is something I don't take for granted.... Name one fan who hasn't disagreed with their teams coaches more than a few times... Most wins in NfC over last 10 years.. 8 playoff wins.... not too bad.... too many fair weather fans here don't remeber the Ray Rhodes, Kotite years, etc... It's been a great (at times frustrating) ride, that hopefully isn't over for this year!

I think this is a very good point. It would be very exasperating to have such a good team for so long and be close to a championship that a fan loses a bit of perspective and looks to 'blame' someone for the inability to get over the hump so to speak. All in all, AR and the Eagles can be frustrating but they've given a good product to their fans that other teams' fans would love., i.e. Detroit, Cleveland.

 

[gonzobill5]

Andy has never tried to make good with the local media and pays the price to an extent with some fans, particularly the WIP crowd. I love the fact that he never gives up unnecessary info or throws his players or coaches under the bus. It's funny how after every game some reporter asks reid if he or marty was calling the plays. when they win he gives marty credit and when they lose he takes all the blame and everyone assumes this is the truth.

Those calling for him to be fired, or even to step down as GM aren't looking at the big picture. The guy has had a plan since day one and has stuck to it. Sure, maybe he's too stubborn at times, but I think you'd have to be to coach in philly. People don't give him enough credit for the things he does well:

-He goes after high character guys

-He sticks with guys he trusts through a lot (didn't give up on mcnabb or buck after a few injury filled seasons)

-He prioritizes the offensive and defensive lines in every draft

-He weighs all aspects of a players game pretty equally (wr blocking, or rb blitz protection are equally important with production at those positions)

-He always takes the blame and sticks up for his players

-He beats the teams he should

-He wins in December

 

[Zot]

You've got tiers

First-ballot HOF head coaches - multiple rings - dominant in the playoffs - the best of the best:

Bill Walsh

Bill Parcells

Bill Belichick

Joe Gibbs

Very good coaches - win lots of games but no ring or perhaps a very long career with lots of playoff failures and just one ring

Tony Dungy

Bill Cowher

Marty Schottenheimer

Andy Reid

Some people demand the best-of-the-best, so that second group isn't good enough.

 

[Die]

A good leader, whether it be a football team, company or military, surrounds himself with smart people and lets them do what they do best. Those people make you look good and make your job easier. That's what Reid needs to do, let his employees do their job and make him look good.

I disagree with how you judge a good leader. You don't judge a good leader by how they do when they are surrounded by smart people. Judge them by how they do when they don't have the best talent around them. Good leaders find a way to get people to perform at a higher level. They can take people that everyone else has given up on and make them productive. Good leaders provide the focus and the drive.I'd say the key difference between good leaders and bad leaders is how they handle adversity. It is human nature to quickly give up when things start to go wrong. People are impatient, and they won't keep trying if they think they will lose. That's the key challenge. Can you keep your group motivated and performing at a high level at those moments where people are apt to just stop trying as hard. Can you keep them focused even if they think the other team has better players, better coaching, or a better situation?

So no, its not about how a leader performs when they are surrounded by the best and brightest. That's when you hardly have to lead at all.

 

[mudshark]

Hypothetical question. If Andy had left the Eagles after the Super Bowl loss and a new coach came in and had the record/history Reid has had, would that coach be considered in the same regard? Again, I give a lot of credit to Reid for the job did in turning the team around.

From an article in Pro Football Weekly following Modrak's firing:

Modrak has done a brilliant job of rebuilding the Eagles. Or as one scout put it, he turned what was the NFL’s outhouse into a penthouse-type situation. Yes, he did get a great deal of help from head coach Andy Reid, and, yes, Joe Banner did a very nice job of handling the cap for him, but Modrak was the guy that made the major moves that set things up and got the organization going in the right direction, much like what Ron Wolf did for the Green Bay Packers. Modrak was very loyal to the Eagles, although the first year he was there, there was some friction. Now, although everyone agrees that Modrak was flat-out screwed and it was a mistake, no one can say with entire certainty what the real reason for the firing was. The general consensus was the Eagles had become convinced that Andy Reid could walk on water and was their fair-haired man, and they wanted to make sure that they could keep him. So, they decided to give him full control.

http://archive.profootballweekly.com/conte...spin_050801.asp

 

[Jason Wood]

Hypothetical question. If Andy had left the Eagles after the Super Bowl loss and a new coach came in and had the record/history Reid has had, would that coach be considered in the same regard? Again, I give a lot of credit to Reid for the job did in turning the team around.

From an article in Pro Football Weekly following Modrak's firing:

Modrak has done a brilliant job of rebuilding the Eagles. Or as one scout put it, he turned what was the NFL’s outhouse into a penthouse-type situation. Yes, he did get a great deal of help from head coach Andy Reid, and, yes, Joe Banner did a very nice job of handling the cap for him, but Modrak was the guy that made the major moves that set things up and got the organization going in the right direction, much like what Ron Wolf did for the Green Bay Packers. Modrak was very loyal to the Eagles, although the first year he was there, there was some friction. Now, although everyone agrees that Modrak was flat-out screwed and it was a mistake, no one can say with entire certainty what the real reason for the firing was. The general consensus was the Eagles had become convinced that Andy Reid could walk on water and was their fair-haired man, and they wanted to make sure that they could keep him. So, they decided to give him full control.

http://archive.profootballweekly.com/conte...spin_050801.asp

This would be the same Tom Modrak who has helped build that powerhouse team in Buffalo as Assistant GM, right?

 

[renesauz]

Andy has never tried to make good with the local media and pays the price to an extent with some fans, particularly the WIP crowd. I love the fact that he never gives up unnecessary info or throws his players or coaches under the bus. It's funny how after every game some reporter asks reid if he or marty was calling the plays. when they win he gives marty credit and when they lose he takes all the blame and everyone assumes this is the truth.

Those calling for him to be fired, or even to step down as GM aren't looking at the big picture. The guy has had a plan since day one and has stuck to it. Sure, maybe he's too stubborn at times, but I think you'd have to be to coach in philly. People don't give him enough credit for the things he does well:

-He goes after high character guys

-He sticks with guys he trusts through a lot (didn't give up on mcnabb or buck after a few injury filled seasons)

-He prioritizes the offensive and defensive lines in every draft

-He weighs all aspects of a players game pretty equally (wr blocking, or rb blitz protection are equally important with production at those positions)

-He always takes the blame and sticks up for his players

-He beats the teams he should

-He wins in December

There's no doubt that AR is a stand-up character type guy. The funny thing about the part I colored is that for those watching on TV, it's usually pretty obvious. When Andy's calling the plays, he holds the card in front of his face as he talks into his mic. When Marty is, he holds the card much lower and is quite obviously NOT talking into the mic. I imagine that from the press booth, much farther away, it may not be as obvious.

For all the reasons you listed, I believe AR is among the leagues better coaches. Still doesn't excuse him when he takes back over in the play-calling department after Marty leads the team to 3 straight impressive wins. I just hope he's (finally) learned this lesson. If he hasn't/can't, then despite all of the great reasons, it may be time to move on.

 

[mudshark]

Hypothetical question. If Andy had left the Eagles after the Super Bowl loss and a new coach came in and had the record/history Reid has had, would that coach be considered in the same regard? Again, I give a lot of credit to Reid for the job did in turning the team around.

From an article in Pro Football Weekly following Modrak's firing:

Modrak has done a brilliant job of rebuilding the Eagles. Or as one scout put it, he turned what was the NFL’s outhouse into a penthouse-type situation. Yes, he did get a great deal of help from head coach Andy Reid, and, yes, Joe Banner did a very nice job of handling the cap for him, but Modrak was the guy that made the major moves that set things up and got the organization going in the right direction, much like what Ron Wolf did for the Green Bay Packers. Modrak was very loyal to the Eagles, although the first year he was there, there was some friction. Now, although everyone agrees that Modrak was flat-out screwed and it was a mistake, no one can say with entire certainty what the real reason for the firing was. The general consensus was the Eagles had become convinced that Andy Reid could walk on water and was their fair-haired man, and they wanted to make sure that they could keep him. So, they decided to give him full control.

http://archive.profootballweekly.com/conte...spin_050801.asp

This would be the same Tom Modrak who has helped build that powerhouse team in Buffalo as Assistant GM, right?

So it was all Reid? And you didn't answer the hypothetical question. Look, I'm not saying Reid should be fired. I'm saying he hasn't reached saint status.And just how much say does an *assistant* GM have?

 

[Jason Wood]

Hypothetical question. If Andy had left the Eagles after the Super Bowl loss and a new coach came in and had the record/history Reid has had, would that coach be considered in the same regard? Again, I give a lot of credit to Reid for the job did in turning the team around.

From an article in Pro Football Weekly following Modrak's firing:

Modrak has done a brilliant job of rebuilding the Eagles. Or as one scout put it, he turned what was the NFL’s outhouse into a penthouse-type situation. Yes, he did get a great deal of help from head coach Andy Reid, and, yes, Joe Banner did a very nice job of handling the cap for him, but Modrak was the guy that made the major moves that set things up and got the organization going in the right direction, much like what Ron Wolf did for the Green Bay Packers. Modrak was very loyal to the Eagles, although the first year he was there, there was some friction. Now, although everyone agrees that Modrak was flat-out screwed and it was a mistake, no one can say with entire certainty what the real reason for the firing was. The general consensus was the Eagles had become convinced that Andy Reid could walk on water and was their fair-haired man, and they wanted to make sure that they could keep him. So, they decided to give him full control.

http://archive.profootballweekly.com/conte...spin_050801.asp

This would be the same Tom Modrak who has helped build that powerhouse team in Buffalo as Assistant GM, right?

So it was all Reid? And you didn't answer the hypothetical question. Look, I'm not saying Reid should be fired. I'm saying he hasn't reached saint status.And just how much say does an *assistant* GM have?

I've got nothing against Modrak, I really don't. But at his best he was a college personnel scout, and a pretty good one. I can't speak to what really went on in Philly but the chatter at the time was his constant lobbying for a GM job from other teams, and his willingness to always take credit for things to other league officials and execs, even when they weren't in his job purview. It's just a tough pill for me to swallow when I read that the Eagles haven't been the same without Modrak when he's been in Buffalo for, what, seven years now and the Bills have gone nowhere fast.

 

[NoCheese]

My point being...fellow Eagles fans...even if we lose to Minnesota this week, just be careful what you wish for.

Don't lose too much sleep over that prospect, Jason. Eagles will steamroll the Vikings. T-Jack just aint ready for prime time yet. Only way Vikes win is if their defense makes McNabb commit a lot of errors

 

[Banger]

I think Reid is a good coach and like most things the longer their around you tend to take them for granted. Philly-Eagle fans love to complain about something even when things are good. He's definitely in the top half of the leagues coachs and probably top 1/3. With Holmgren leaving and Cowher out, I'd put him behind BB, Fisher, Shanny and then probably right in the mix with Dungy, Coughlin, Fox.

 

[Chunky Soup]

But Jason, sure he was a great coach for this stretch overall. The last two (and really, four, considering that 3 ago the same pass-first problem was there until Garcia came in) seasons IMO bring into question whether he is still a great coach. football evolves, teams evolve, coaches lose enthusiasm, etc -- it's got to be hard to be a great coach for a long time in the NFL, and at some point, IMO, it runs out.

I do think that time has passed for Reid. He wants to run a pass-first team and that doesn't work. What exactly is he doing for the team? What about the strange play calls (wasting valuable timeouts after challenges, etc that I'm sure Pasquino could cover)? The team not knowing overtime rules?

I don't think that the Eagles should hire Marinelli, but I have faith that there are options at least as good as Reid out there. At least a coach that will play to the team's advantages -- not pass-first. This may be shameful, but I'd love to see even a guy like Mangini take his spot, and it looks like better options are available still.

 

[Chunky Soup]

My point being...fellow Eagles fans...even if we lose to Minnesota this week, just be careful what you wish for.

Don't lose too much sleep over that prospect, Jason. Eagles will steamroll the Vikings. T-Jack just aint ready for prime time yet. Only way Vikes win is if their defense makes McNabb commit a lot of errors

Please don't jinx anything. Tampa Bay was supposed to steamroll the Raiders as well.

 

[jasvic]

A good leader, whether it be a football team, company or military, surrounds himself with smart people and lets them do what they do best. Those people make you look good and make your job easier. That's what Reid needs to do, let his employees do their job and make him look good.

I disagree with how you judge a good leader. You don't judge a good leader by how they do when they are surrounded by smart people. Judge them by how they do when they don't have the best talent around them. Good leaders find a way to get people to perform at a higher level. They can take people that everyone else has given up on and make them productive. Good leaders provide the focus and the drive.I'd say the key difference between good leaders and bad leaders is how they handle adversity. It is human nature to quickly give up when things start to go wrong. People are impatient, and they won't keep trying if they think they will lose. That's the key challenge. Can you keep your group motivated and performing at a high level at those moments where people are apt to just stop trying as hard. Can you keep them focused even if they think the other team has better players, better coaching, or a better situation?

So no, its not about how a leader performs when they are surrounded by the best and brightest. That's when you hardly have to lead at all.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, I think they're both qualities that are needed. But you have to agree, the smart play is to surround yourself with good people and let them do their job. Look at Jerry Jones. He had a big run in the early 90s, then became hands on and they've been a joke for a decade. Granted, he's not a coach, but I think the same applies. Let the people you hire do their job, and let them help you win. In this case, let Marty call the plays.

 

[Banger]

But Jason, sure he was a great coach for this stretch overall. The last two (and really, four, considering that 3 ago the same pass-first problem was there until Garcia came in) seasons IMO bring into question whether he is still a great coach. football evolves, teams evolve, coaches lose enthusiasm, etc -- it's got to be hard to be a great coach for a long time in the NFL, and at some point, IMO, it runs out.

I do think that time has passed for Reid. He wants to run a pass-first team and that doesn't work. What exactly is he doing for the team? What about the strange play calls (wasting valuable timeouts after challenges, etc that I'm sure Pasquino could cover)? The team not knowing overtime rules?

I don't think that the Eagles should hire Marinelli, but I have faith that there are options at least as good as Reid out there. At least a coach that will play to the team's advantages -- not pass-first. This may be shameful, but I'd love to see even a guy like Mangini take his spot, and it looks like better options are available still.

who besides Cowher? Billick? Shotty? Unless you want to take a shot with an unproven coach/coordinator which is usually a 50-50 at best scenario.

 

[Chunky Soup]

-He goes after high character guys -He prioritizes the offensive and defensive lines in every draft-He beats the teams he should

-FredEx, Owens and Desean Jackson down? I thought the latter two were some of the best choices the Eagles have made as a franchise, but your claim just isn't that true.-True, but we've been awful at drafting skilled positions, for the most part. FredEx, Kolb, Reggie Brown. DeJax is the first to hit in a while.-Cincinnati and Washington?

 

[Chunky Soup]

But Jason, sure he was a great coach for this stretch overall. The last two (and really, four, considering that 3 ago the same pass-first problem was there until Garcia came in) seasons IMO bring into question whether he is still a great coach. football evolves, teams evolve, coaches lose enthusiasm, etc -- it's got to be hard to be a great coach for a long time in the NFL, and at some point, IMO, it runs out.

I do think that time has passed for Reid. He wants to run a pass-first team and that doesn't work. What exactly is he doing for the team? What about the strange play calls (wasting valuable timeouts after challenges, etc that I'm sure Pasquino could cover)? The team not knowing overtime rules?

I don't think that the Eagles should hire Marinelli, but I have faith that there are options at least as good as Reid out there. At least a coach that will play to the team's advantages -- not pass-first. This may be shameful, but I'd love to see even a guy like Mangini take his spot, and it looks like better options are available still.

who besides Cowher? Billick? Shotty? Unless you want to take a shot with an unproven coach/coordinator which is usually a 50-50 at best scenario.

Gruden, Spag, Mangini, and probably more. I think Andy Reid isn't the right coach for the team, so in my head there are plenty of better coaches. IMO Reid is getting a free ride on the run game (which he doesn't like to use) and the defense.

 

[mudshark]

But Jason, sure he was a great coach for this stretch overall. The last two (and really, four, considering that 3 ago the same pass-first problem was there until Garcia came in) seasons IMO bring into question whether he is still a great coach. football evolves, teams evolve, coaches lose enthusiasm, etc -- it's got to be hard to be a great coach for a long time in the NFL, and at some point, IMO, it runs out.

I do think that time has passed for Reid. He wants to run a pass-first team and that doesn't work. What exactly is he doing for the team? What about the strange play calls (wasting valuable timeouts after challenges, etc that I'm sure Pasquino could cover)? The team not knowing overtime rules?

I don't think that the Eagles should hire Marinelli, but I have faith that there are options at least as good as Reid out there. At least a coach that will play to the team's advantages -- not pass-first. This may be shameful, but I'd love to see even a guy like Mangini take his spot, and it looks like better options are available still.

who besides Cowher? Billick? Shotty? Unless you want to take a shot with an unproven coach/coordinator which is usually a 50-50 at best scenario.

Gruden, Spag, Mangini, and probably more. I think Andy Reid isn't the right coach for the team, so in my head there are plenty of better coaches. IMO Reid is getting a free ride on the run game (which he doesn't like to use) and the defense.

I think we're on the same page but I'm not in favor of firing him outright. I think he needs to give up some control. I do think he gets a free pass based on his success 5 years ago and earlier. The Andy Reid we've seen since the Super Bowl has won less games than Rich Kotite (regarded as one of the worst in franchise history) with his own players. The Eagles need to make organizational changes.Granted all of this is before this week's game in Minny. Should the Eagles go deep in the playoffs he will do a lot to restore his reputation. If they go down 17-10 and pass the ball 80%, the call for his head will get louder. Remember this is a team that has won 1 playoff game since beating the Falcons in '04.

 

[Banger]

But Jason, sure he was a great coach for this stretch overall. The last two (and really, four, considering that 3 ago the same pass-first problem was there until Garcia came in) seasons IMO bring into question whether he is still a great coach. football evolves, teams evolve, coaches lose enthusiasm, etc -- it's got to be hard to be a great coach for a long time in the NFL, and at some point, IMO, it runs out.

I do think that time has passed for Reid. He wants to run a pass-first team and that doesn't work. What exactly is he doing for the team? What about the strange play calls (wasting valuable timeouts after challenges, etc that I'm sure Pasquino could cover)? The team not knowing overtime rules?

I don't think that the Eagles should hire Marinelli, but I have faith that there are options at least as good as Reid out there. At least a coach that will play to the team's advantages -- not pass-first. This may be shameful, but I'd love to see even a guy like Mangini take his spot, and it looks like better options are available still.

who besides Cowher? Billick? Shotty? Unless you want to take a shot with an unproven coach/coordinator which is usually a 50-50 at best scenario.

Gruden, Spag, Mangini, and probably more. I think Andy Reid isn't the right coach for the team, so in my head there are plenty of better coaches. IMO Reid is getting a free ride on the run game (which he doesn't like to use) and the defense.

I think we're on the same page but I'm not in favor of firing him outright. I think he needs to give up some control. I do think he gets a free pass based on his success 5 years ago and earlier. The Andy Reid we've seen since the Super Bowl has won less games than Rich Kotite (regarded as one of the worst in franchise history) with his own players. The Eagles need to make organizational changes.Granted all of this is before this week's game in Minny. Should the Eagles go deep in the playoffs he will do a lot to restore his reputation. If they go down 17-10 and pass the ball 80%, the call for his head will get louder. Remember this is a team that has won 1 playoff game since beating the Falcons in '04.

well, against the Vikes he probably should throw the ball 80%.

 

[TCFF]

But Jason, sure he was a great coach for this stretch overall. The last two (and really, four, considering that 3 ago the same pass-first problem was there until Garcia came in) seasons IMO bring into question whether he is still a great coach. football evolves, teams evolve, coaches lose enthusiasm, etc -- it's got to be hard to be a great coach for a long time in the NFL, and at some point, IMO, it runs out.

I do think that time has passed for Reid. He wants to run a pass-first team and that doesn't work. What exactly is he doing for the team? What about the strange play calls (wasting valuable timeouts after challenges, etc that I'm sure Pasquino could cover)? The team not knowing overtime rules?

I don't think that the Eagles should hire Marinelli, but I have faith that there are options at least as good as Reid out there. At least a coach that will play to the team's advantages -- not pass-first. This may be shameful, but I'd love to see even a guy like Mangini take his spot, and it looks like better options are available still.

who besides Cowher? Billick? Shotty? Unless you want to take a shot with an unproven coach/coordinator which is usually a 50-50 at best scenario.

The last time the Eagles needed a new coach didn't they take their time, do an extensive search, and finally decide on a realtively obscure candidate who had not even been a cordinator before? They hit a home run with Reid the last time and when the time comes to replace Reid I would suspect they would do the same thing especially with the success of new coaches in Baltimore and Atlanta. I would rather them keep Reid indefinitely than to bring in a short term retread like Schottenhiemer.At the very least, Reid should permanently give up playcalling and someone really needs to deal with the clock management and challenge issues. Maybe we need someone else upstairs telling Reid what to challenge and while it may be tough to say that Andy Reid is the worst at anything, I have not seen so much consistently bad clock management ever. The team can't run a 2 or 4 minute drill and rarely has enough timeouts left at the end of a game because they have been squandered on bad challenges, because the play came in too slowly to McNabb, or because McNabb/the offense have taken too much time getting set. I can't imagine anyone, even AR's biggest supporters, who have seen most of the Eagles games over the last few years defending the team's clock management.

 

[Mr Capicollo]

Reid is above average as an NFL head coach. That's not damning him with faint praise - I do literally mean to say that most NFL head coaches are inferior - but it's just the truth. I do think the Eagles should keep him on as a head coach because the team clearly still buys what he's selling, as exemplified by not giving up on this season, but I'll play devil's advocate a little here as well.

The first part of Reid's tenure in Philly he benefitted very much from being in a weak division. 5-8 years ago it was basically the Eagles and everyone else in the NFC East. The NFC as a whole was weak during that time. That helps to inflate his numbers when he got the benefit of hosting at least his first two playoff games every year as a division winner who could beat up on weak Redskins, Cowboys and Giants teams.

Reid is a horrible play-caller. Horrible. There are times when his "creativity" in the passing game works, but one of the hallmarks of great play-calling, adaptability, is just not there. Year after year we've seen Reid jamming his pegs into round holes - when those pegs are also round, he can have results, even impressive results; when they're not, it's miserable. He's as hard-headed and rigid in his approach as Mike Martz is, and having players with the talent of McNabb and Westbrook have made him look better than he actually is.

Reid has enjoyed the benefit of coaching one of the most stable and well-managed rosters in the NFL. The Eagles have done a masterful job - on par with Pittsburgh - of keeping good young players by extending them before they become FA's, and of strategically adding talent as needed through FA and the draft. (A major exception has been the WR position, which has been horribly neglected, and inexplicably so given the emphasis on the passing game, as well as the success of the passing game when talented players like TO and Desean Jackson this year have been there.) Stability of the roster with minimal roster turnover from year to year is an underrated asset IMHO in the NFL. Reid has been involved in this, but I still separate what amounts to GM/personnel responsibilities from head coaching responsibilities. It is at least arguable that Reid has been more successful as the man with "final say" on personnel than he has been as a head coach (and certainly as a play-caller), and that that role has been the one which has most contributed to on-field success.

 

[Banger]

But Jason, sure he was a great coach for this stretch overall. The last two (and really, four, considering that 3 ago the same pass-first problem was there until Garcia came in) seasons IMO bring into question whether he is still a great coach. football evolves, teams evolve, coaches lose enthusiasm, etc -- it's got to be hard to be a great coach for a long time in the NFL, and at some point, IMO, it runs out.

I do think that time has passed for Reid. He wants to run a pass-first team and that doesn't work. What exactly is he doing for the team? What about the strange play calls (wasting valuable timeouts after challenges, etc that I'm sure Pasquino could cover)? The team not knowing overtime rules?

I don't think that the Eagles should hire Marinelli, but I have faith that there are options at least as good as Reid out there. At least a coach that will play to the team's advantages -- not pass-first. This may be shameful, but I'd love to see even a guy like Mangini take his spot, and it looks like better options are available still.

who besides Cowher? Billick? Shotty? Unless you want to take a shot with an unproven coach/coordinator which is usually a 50-50 at best scenario.

The last time the Eagles needed a new coach didn't they take their time, do an extensive search, and finally decide on a realtively obscure candidate who had not even been a cordinator before? They hit a home run with Reid the last time and when the time comes to replace Reid I would suspect they would do the same thing especially with the success of new coaches in Baltimore and Atlanta. At the very least, Reid should permanently give up playcalling and someone really needs to deal with the clock management and challenge issues. Maybe we need someone else upstairs telling Reid what to challenge and while it may be tough to say that Andy Reid is the worst at anything, I have not seen so much consistently bad clock management ever. The team can't run a 2 or 4 minute drill and rarely has enough timeouts left at the end of a game because they have been squandered on bad challenges, because the play came in too slowly to McNabb, or because McNabb/the offense have taken too much time getting set. I can't imagine anyone, even AR's biggest supporters, who have seen most of the Eagles games over the last few years defending the team's clock management.

and for every Baltimore/Atlanta you have a Cam Cameron, Bobby Petrino, Scott Linehan, Ted Nolan, Mangini, Crennel, etc. To me, you have a top 10 coach so if you fire him the upside of the coach is pretty much what Reid is now but the downside is much greater. That's why Reid still is and will continue to be the coach for the forseeable future.

 

[mudshark]

Here are the Eagles win-loss records in games decided by 7 points or less:

From 2001 thru 2004 16-9 (0.640)

From 2005 thru 2008 13-20-1 (0.382)

2007 & 2008 4-10-1 (0.267)

2008 1-5-1 (0.143)

 

[mudshark]

Let's also keep something else in perspective here. Eagles fans have been quite content with Reid until this season. A few questionable draft-day decisions, the mis-handling of Lito, the team starting the season at 5-5-1 following a couple of *horrendous* games. Winning cures a lot of ills and this team was going downhill. From 10 wins in '06 to 8 wins in '07 to the debacle that was shaping up to be '08. Like I've already said in this thread, going deep into this year's playoffs will go a long way to restoring AR's rep.

 

[eoMMan]

Meh.

I still think he needs to do a better job out there.

 

[renesauz]

Reid is above average as an NFL head coach. That's not damning him with faint praise - I do literally mean to say that most NFL head coaches are inferior - but it's just the truth. I do think the Eagles should keep him on as a head coach because the team clearly still buys what he's selling, as exemplified by not giving up on this season, but I'll play devil's advocate a little here as well.

The first part of Reid's tenure in Philly he benefitted very much from being in a weak division. 5-8 years ago it was basically the Eagles and everyone else in the NFC East. The NFC as a whole was weak during that time. That helps to inflate his numbers when he got the benefit of hosting at least his first two playoff games every year as a division winner who could beat up on weak Redskins, Cowboys and Giants teams.

Reid is a horrible play-caller. Horrible. There are times when his "creativity" in the passing game works, but one of the hallmarks of great play-calling, adaptability, is just not there. Year after year we've seen Reid jamming his pegs into round holes - when those pegs are also round, he can have results, even impressive results; when they're not, it's miserable. He's as hard-headed and rigid in his approach as Mike Martz is, and having players with the talent of McNabb and Westbrook have made him look better than he actually is.

Reid has enjoyed the benefit of coaching one of the most stable and well-managed rosters in the NFL. The Eagles have done a masterful job - on par with Pittsburgh - of keeping good young players by extending them before they become FA's, and of strategically adding talent as needed through FA and the draft. (A major exception has been the WR position, which has been horribly neglected, and inexplicably so given the emphasis on the passing game, as well as the success of the passing game when talented players like TO and Desean Jackson this year have been there.) Stability of the roster with minimal roster turnover from year to year is an underrated asset IMHO in the NFL. Reid has been involved in this, but I still separate what amounts to GM/personnel responsibilities from head coaching responsibilities. It is at least arguable that Reid has been more successful as the man with "final say" on personnel than he has been as a head coach (and certainly as a play-caller), and that that role has been the one which has most contributed to on-field success.

In fact, excellant posting. You hit the high points of both sides of this argument.

Lost in much of this is the fact that AR has actually done not just a good, but a FANTASTIC job as the de-facto GM. Yes...there are holes, and yes, he's been stubborn at times in his insistance that those holes weren't there when everyone else could see them (WR, KR)...but the roster has been stable. Good young players rarely get away. The cap is managed well. Aged vets aren't retained unless they are still productive and cost effective. While he's missed at WR...McNabb was a home run, Westbrook was a home run. Many GM's go an entire decade without ever hitting a triple, let alone a home run at the QB and RB spots. Great defensive picks. Sustained period with a playoff caliber team. He's badly under-rated as a GM.

Even his system is still effective. It's his own play-calling that's lost it's edge...hardly unusual after 10 years using basicly the same system.

I've argued that he should go if he can't adjust and adapt, can't let someone else take some of his game-day responsibilities. But I'd also hate to see AR the GM go.

 

[Buddy Ball 2K3]

You can not get rid of Andy until its clear this team is dead and thankfully it is not. Once its clear that this team needs to go in a new direction thats when you make the move. A few loses, some poorly called games and does not top 10 years of a real good job.

 

[Jason Wood]

You can not get rid of Andy until its clear this team is dead and thankfully it is not. Once its clear that this team needs to go in a new direction thats when you make the move. A few loses, some poorly called games and does not top 10 years of a real good job.

I actually suspect Andy will leave the team before he's fired. Any number of teams will jump at the chance to hand him the keys to the franchise and I could see him heading to San Fran when the Mike Singletary experiment runs its course.

 

[Die]

A good leader, whether it be a football team, company or military, surrounds himself with smart people and lets them do what they do best. Those people make you look good and make your job easier. That's what Reid needs to do, let his employees do their job and make him look good.

I disagree with how you judge a good leader. You don't judge a good leader by how they do when they are surrounded by smart people. Judge them by how they do when they don't have the best talent around them. Good leaders find a way to get people to perform at a higher level. They can take people that everyone else has given up on and make them productive. Good leaders provide the focus and the drive.I'd say the key difference between good leaders and bad leaders is how they handle adversity. It is human nature to quickly give up when things start to go wrong. People are impatient, and they won't keep trying if they think they will lose. That's the key challenge. Can you keep your group motivated and performing at a high level at those moments where people are apt to just stop trying as hard. Can you keep them focused even if they think the other team has better players, better coaching, or a better situation?

So no, its not about how a leader performs when they are surrounded by the best and brightest. That's when you hardly have to lead at all.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, I think they're both qualities that are needed. But you have to agree, the smart play is to surround yourself with good people and let them do their job. Look at Jerry Jones. He had a big run in the early 90s, then became hands on and they've been a joke for a decade. Granted, he's not a coach, but I think the same applies. Let the people you hire do their job, and let them help you win. In this case, let Marty call the plays.

I agree its smart but what you're describing isn't so much leadership as much as just getting out of people's way.

 

[spacevan]

The guy is a complete fat slob. What kind of example is this guy setting for his team? Why don't you come to pre-season in game shape coach? That's the question everyone should be answering. Maybe he would be able to think clearer and call better plays if his meat head wasn't completely filled with fat!

 

[Banger]

The guy is a complete fat slob. What kind of example is this guy setting for his team? Why don't you come to pre-season in game shape coach? That's the question everyone should be answering. Maybe he would be able to think clearer and call better plays if his meat head wasn't completely filled with fat!

Now THIS is the reason why I come here. Quality stuff....