"Stalling" online rookie draft, fair or unfair? (1 Viewer)

[matttyl]

So we started our online rookie draft in a 10 team dynasty draft. It's 5 rounds, so 50 picks. It started at midnight on June 1st and we're already in the 5th round. We have no rule in place for any time limit on picks, but they typically went anywhere from a few minutes apart to maybe up to 12 hours between picks.

Again, no rule on time limit between picks, and often an owner would tell the league he's shopping the pick to see if he could get any interest - some would be traded, others would just give up and pick a player from the "peer pressure" he was receiving from the guy with the next pick or two picks away.

Anyway, two of the owners, through quite a few trades from both last season and a few during the draft this year have acquired all 8 of the final picks (#42-50), and have pretty much made it clear that they are "stalling the draft" and taking as much time as they want for the picks. They say that since they aren't holding up any picks for any other owners, and because it doesn't bother them at all, and because everyone had as much time as they wanted/needed for their picks there shouldn't be any issue here. Should they wait a few weeks or even a few months to make these picks they would have the "advantage" of additional information when making those picks than other owners had when they made earlier picks.

Oh, and since we do NOT run waivers prior to week 1, the ONLY time a team has to alter their rosters (other than via trades) between the end of last year and the start of the upcoming season is this draft of rookies and a few limited free agents that weren't on a roster to end last season.

Thoughts on this tactic?

 

[Banemorth]

Pretty crafty if you ask me. If they're both in agreement and there's nothing in the bylaws then there's nothing you can really do. Propose a rule change/amendment for next year if it bothers enough people.

 

[cstu]

Pretty crafty if you ask me. If they're both in agreement and there's nothing in the bylaws then there's nothing you can really do. Propose a rule change/amendment for next year if it bothers enough people.

 

[petenice15]

I'd be pissed, but I don't think there's much you can do. We have a 12 hour rule in place to prevent this.

 

[BroadwayG]

smart play. good value move.

 

[helix]

This is why you should have a time limit per pick. 24 hours gives each owner plenty of time to shop the pick and work a deal.

In your case, I would put a 24 hour time limit per pick up to vote. It should pass- likely 8-2. Issue solved.

 

[Shutout]

Brilliant on their part. There is no rule against it, so you can't be mad. You had the same choice as they did (any of you could have sat on pick 2.11 for a month since there is no time limit, but you chose not to), so you can't be mad. IMO, it would be unfair to THEM if you put a rule in place to institute a timer while you are in the middle of the draft because it is essentially changing the rule mid-stream.

In the end, they may end up with a REAL significant advantage if they just sit on this and wait for news to break on players so I would put a vote together for the future and base it on the "spirit" of fair competition (which is also why I would say you should NOT try to change it now, because it was fair to you all, some of you just handled it differently).

The one "out" I might say you have right now is IF you could prove that this idea was hatched out between the two owners and they acted out a plan to obtain and sit on these 8 picks jointly. If they did that, then that is collusion and that is generally a non-no in any league, written or unwritten. If they did that, then I would say you can call BS.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

It's certainly a cheesy move on their part. If you really wanted to push the issue with no rule to prevent it in place, you could argue it's a form of collusion (since you likely have a rule against that in place). It's two owners agreeing with eachother to stall the draft to benefit their teams - at the league's expense.

It's something at least, but honestly for league harmony you'd probably just be better off letting it go.

 

[Bruce Hammond]

"We have no rule in place for any time limit on picks... "

This is where I stopped reading the thread. That's just bonehead. You guys have yourselves to blame for any consequences thereafter.

 

[Concept Coop]

Vote on a rule change right now, if the current set of rules allow.

 

[KCitons]

"We have no rule in place for any time limit on picks... "

This is where I stopped reading the thread. That's just bonehead. You guys have yourselves to blame for any consequences thereafter.

This, nothing else.

 

[matttyl]

I tend to agree with what's said here, thanks for the opinions. I think next year the draft will be run a little bit differently.

Oh, last year our draft was done BEFORE all the hype and such came out on Josh Gordon hitting the supplemental draft.....then everyone saw what Alfred Morris was week 1. Those were obviously the first two waiver wire pickups AFTER week 1. I guess they are just hoping to get this year's Gordon or Morris.

 

[moderated]

Most people wouldn't exploit it, those who are doing it are weasels.

Vote on a rule change now, if the 2 weasel owners complain then just find new owners.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Stupid not to have a rule.

Also, they're #####.

 

[gianmarco]

Silly responses.

Dumb to not have the rule but clearly not the intent of the draft. Commish should step in and put a reasonable limit on it.

 

[jesseasi]

We have a similar draft - 12 Teams - 5 Rounds - 60 picks. We do the draft after the 3rd pre-season game to give owners a chance to avoid catastrophic injury and make the best decision possible. Before the draft we assign draft slot times. Picks can be made before their draft slot if we are ahead - but must be made before their "end" time. This prevents teams from "sleeping" on picks. Normally we allow 1-2 hours per pick.

It sucks when an owner stalls - but this prevents it from getting out of hand.

In most cases - we stay ahead of schedule.

 

[Bruce Hammond]

In leagues I've run, I've always distinguished core fundamental structural rules from facilitation / administrative rules.

Core rules would include those important basics on which guys decide whether or not they want to be a part of a league. Things like roster size, lineup requirements, scoring system, rules of trading and free agency, etc. To change any of these rules, a league vote should take place late in the current season or right at its conclusion, for changes in the following season (or even the season after that if the change is significant enough to affect roster structure/mix).

Facilitation / administrative rules cover all the little crap that is needed to keep the league running smoothly. These rules can be changed for immediate implementation if a need arises in order to keep the league running smoothly. Either the Commish or a committee s/b sufficient to determine such changes and the rest of the league is simply notified. All the little 'surprise!' things that might arise cannot be contemplated even in a good set of rules, and this streamlined process is needed to tackle such things quickly and fairly. You can't have an "oops, didn't think of that" effectively shut down the league until the following vote period, or even for the time it might take for an ASAP full league vote.

If I were Commish of your league, I'd immediately implement a reasonable time period (I prefer 12 hours w/o overnight stoppage or 8 hour with stoppage, but since you had no rule I'd make it 24 w/o stoppage) for a pick, and if anyone didn't accept that it is in the best interest of the league for the immediate change, he can choose to leave after the season. Presumably he's already paid for this season.

 

[Goldalene]

the "peer pressure" he was receiving from the guy with the next pick or two picks away.

These are the guys causing a problem.

 

[moderated]

If I were Commish of your league, I'd immediately implement a reasonable time period (I prefer 12 hours, but since you had no rule I'd make it 24) for a pick, and if anyone didn't accept that it is in the best interest of the league for the immediate change, he can choose to leave after the season. Presumably he's already paid for this season.

This is FF, it's supposed to be fun. There are always ways to exploit FF rules, but most people aren't douchy enough to do it.

Change the time limit now and if the losers don't like it tell them to take a hike.

 

[Spin]

Silly responses.Dumb to not have the rule but clearly not the intent of the draft. Commish should step in and put a reasonable limit on it.

This. Just because you don't explicitly spell it out in the bylaws, there is some responsibility as the commish to put a time limit on this. If I was commish, I would call my co-commish and tell him I'm going to add a 24hour time limit to the draft picks, starting now. And he would back me up. People that try to exploit loop holes in the rules are annoying, and I honestly just don't want them in my leagues. Our bylaws are starting to get ridiculous in one league because people are coming up with the most obnoxious what if scenarios. I guess if you enjoy playing in die hard, cut throat leagues where you can get an advantage by exploiting an obvious oversight, then by all means, have at it.

 

[Anarchy99]

In leagues I commish, I make it perfectly clear that I reserve the right to make up rules and make rulings on things not covered in the rules to preserve the integrity of the league and ensure an overall sense of fair play. I generally don't abuse any power, so having ultimate power doesn't lead to bad outcomes.

In this particular situation, the commish should email the league and propose that for next season there will be a vote to institute a time limit per pick and state what that amount of time should be (say 12 hours or 24 hours), allowing for special circumstances with prior notice (say out of the country, death in the family, etc.)

HOWEVER, since that would be for NEXT YEAR, the commish should then state that since there is no rule in force on the matter, that for THIS YEAR, the owners will be allocated triple that time to make a pick. Of course, failure to make a pick in that timeframe will result in forfeiting the pick. In practical reality, with 8 picks left, the longest things could go would be 8 times whatever the limit would be times 3. So if the proposed pick limit was a full day, the longest it would take is 24 days to make 8 more picks. Given that training camp doesn't start in earnest until August, there shouldn't be too much player movement, signings, injuries, etc. to deal with.

IMO, that's the fairest way to resolve this, it gets those two owners more time than the other owners got, and in reality it does not offer them a huge advantage.

 

[bostonfred]

Other option is double the longest time anyone has ever taken to make a pick. So if someone three years ago took a day and a half, they get three days. That way you're basically enforcing an unwritten rule, but giving them the benefit of the doubt by giving them more time than anyone has ever needed for any pick before. If you arbitrarily set it to one day next year, and give them triple that, then you run the risk that they will find an example of somebody getting four days once, many years ago, and now you have to tryto explain why that was different

 

[Christo]

Do you have a rule that says free agency opens after the rookie draft is complete? If so, use that to impose a reasonable time limit since the spirit of the "no time limit rule" still contemplates other types of player movement during the off-season.

 

[ratbast]

If this tactic works, everyone will use it and your draft is ruined. Your commish probably needs to make the rule now. Involve an assistant commish and move on.

 

[squistion]

This is why you should have a time limit per pick. 24 hours gives each owner plenty of time to shop the pick and work a deal.

In your case, I would put a 24 hour time limit per pick up to vote. It should pass- likely 8-2. Issue solved.

Which has traditionally been regarded as a slow draft for those who been in on-line drafts since the late 90s. I am in two leagues over a decade old that have a 24 hour clock and the only diificulties I can recall was where we had one of owners who was in the military on a tour of duty in Iraq and couldn't always get away to make a pick (but no one had a problem with).

I am of the opinion that rule changes should never be done in the current season, as if there is one exception, there tends to be others and in one league I was in (but am no longer) the rules were changed during the playoffs to benefit a playoff team who wanted to make a trade (which was prohibited under the rules in place).

I would suggest that after this season, those owners be asked to leave the league as they have engaged in collusion (which may be currently allowed under the rules but it is still collusion).

 

[Steed]

Out of curiosity, do you guys have a rule where you can't murder someone to prevent them from putting in a line-up against you?

 

[meyerj31]

Out of curiosity, do you guys have a rule where you can't murder someone to prevent them from putting in a line-up against you?

Yea, exactly. They are clearly doing something against the spirit of the draft. I would ask them to make their picks within the next week or vote to have them replaced.

While this is a simple issue that could have been prevented, you cannot write out rules for every possible scenario. They are clearly trying to manipulate the system in a way that benefits them greatly and, most importantly, is against the spirit of the draft. Not OK in my book.

If only a few owners have a problem with it there's not much you can do, but if 6-8 of the other guys are against it I'd just say "Make the picks or you get the boot" .... they know what they are doing, obviously.

 

[Adam Harstad]

In leagues I commish, I make it perfectly clear that I reserve the right to make up rules and make rulings on things not covered in the rules to preserve the integrity of the league and ensure an overall sense of fair play. I generally don't abuse any power, so having ultimate power doesn't lead to bad outcomes.

Yup. In all of my leagues, I make it very clear that I am a "spirit of the law" guy and not a "letter of the law" guy. I also include a "sportsmanship" rule that basically serves as a catch-all, giving me power to immediately correct anything that I may have overlooked when drafting the rules. In my mind, what's the point of having a commish if you aren't going to empower them to take action? As a commissioner, it places much more of a burden on me to go out of my way to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, but I find it's a small price to pay to keep a well-run, smoothly-functioning league.

Here's a sample of the "sportsmanship" rule from one of my leagues:

Sportsmanship

-Owners must make a good-faith effort to field the most competitive lineup they are capable of fielding on any given week

-Owners must refrain from any activities that could be construed as "poor sportsmanship". These activities include, but are not limited to: intentionally losing games to secure a better draft pick or matchup; "renting" or "loaning" players; excessive complaining or disruption over league rulings (voicing complaints is encouraged, continuing to bring them up is not); intentionally adding and dropping players to activate the 24-hour waiver timer; intentionally destroying the competitive balance of the league (e.g. trading away your best players for little return or cutting them outright).

 

[ghostguy123]

the draft should ALWAYS have a time limit

 

[ZWK]

If a league doesn't have detailed rules spelled out for everything (or even if it does try to), the commissioner should still have the power to step in and use common sense when there are gaps in the rules or people try to twist them. In this case, the commissioner should stop the two players who are trying to munchkin the draft timing.

Exact details can be left to the commissioner based on what seems likely to go best, e.g a 24 hour time limit vs. other lengths, acting through an immediate majority-rules league vote or commissioner dictate, getting support from a co-commish, etc.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

I hate ######es that look for poorly written/lack of rules to game the system in their favor. If the commish doesn't step in I'd be angry and leave a league that allows this to continue. FF is supposed to fun.

Me too. Why does Fantasy football attract so many douchebags? Why are so many in this thread even calling it "brilliant". It's just dooshy. Have some consideration for the other players in your league. Like a league I was in that allowed tanking because "there was no rule against it". Just stupid, as if you have to have a rule to cover every freaking scenario. Good commishes are so rare. I agree with SSOG-give the commish some flexibility to deal with bull#### like this. If he doesn't, get out.

 

[Beerguzzler]

Silly to have a draft this early anyways, even in dynasty.

 

[johnadams]

In a normal league, this is crass and lame. Commish has to step in and give them 24 hours to make a decision. The intent of having a draft this early is specifically so that the managers have less information on the players and it is actually profoundly unfair that they have skirted the rules to give themselves an advantage not enjoyed by the rest of the league. This is a very easy call to me, which is to give 24 hours per pick and if the time expires, they lose the pick.

Personally, I don't like the hyper competitive leagues where everything has to so explicit that you end up with a Big Bang Theory roommate agreement just so you can have a bit of fun.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

Silly to have a draft this early anyways, even in dynasty.

Disagree.

 

[petenice15]

Silly to have a draft this early anyways, even in dynasty.

It's a Rookie draft, what are you talking about?

 

[ghostguy123]

Silly to have a draft this early anyways, even in dynasty.

Disagree.

Right. It's not silly to have a draft anytime, ever.

 

[nirad3]

Dooshy and Bush league. Commish has to make the call and force these guys to play with some sportsmanship.

 

[Yitbos69]

the commish needs to grow a pair and do his JOB.....unless one of the two that hatched this plan is the commish

 

[ConnSKINS26]

Silly to have a draft this early anyways, even in dynasty.

Disagree.

Right. It's not silly to have a draft anytime, ever.

As a guy with some leagues that draft rookies before the NFL draft, I agree with you whole-heartedly. It's a matter of preference. And for some, it's about risk management as a league.

 

[Drop]

Take the number of days from now until the start of the season and divide by 8, that's how long each pick gets. The draft has to end and the last remaining picks should be afforded a reasonable amount of time to make their picks as well.

 

[bmsarvis]

Just went thru a.draft, maybe the same one lol. Stalling is complete garbage. Worst draft ever. Change the rule asap or people will not want to stay in the league

 

[ducktales]

not fair

 

[Truman]

Tell the commissioner to grow some balls and put a clock on for everyone. 4 hours should be fine going forward. That will be 'the same for everyone'

 

[Donnybrook]

Although a somewhat smart move it really takes the fun out of the league. I agree with the poster that called it bad sportsmanship. The fact that two players are supporting each other in this makes it very close to collusion.

 

[GregR]

Agree the commish should do something. If they'd done this at pick 1.2 the commish should have stepped in. No reason that should change just because it is late in the draft.

Adam's sportsmanship rule is a great thing to have. Even without it, if that's how someone is going to be, you probably don't want them in your league. You can always remove those owners from the league and replace them with someone who won't behave like that.

 

[Warhogs]

I read through the beginning responses and then skimmed through the rest. I think it's pretty clear that a time limit needs to be put in place. Assuming most of the owners in that league feel the same way you should push to get a rule on a time limit for picks right away. These two owners are obviously looking to take advantage of this missing rule to gain an unfair advantage. Because of this I would also push to set the time limit rule in place immediately.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

In leagues I commish, I make it perfectly clear that I reserve the right to make up rules and make rulings on things not covered in the rules to preserve the integrity of the league and ensure an overall sense of fair play. I generally don't abuse any power, so having ultimate power doesn't lead to bad outcomes.

Yup. In all of my leagues, I make it very clear that I am a "spirit of the law" guy and not a "letter of the law" guy. I also include a "sportsmanship" rule that basically serves as a catch-all, giving me power to immediately correct anything that I may have overlooked when drafting the rules. In my mind, what's the point of having a commish if you aren't going to empower them to take action? As a commissioner, it places much more of a burden on me to go out of my way to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, but I find it's a small price to pay to keep a well-run, smoothly-functioning league.

Here's a sample of the "sportsmanship" rule from one of my leagues:

>Sportsmanship

-Owners must make a good-faith effort to field the most competitive lineup they are capable of fielding on any given week

-Owners must refrain from any activities that could be construed as "poor sportsmanship". These activities include, but are not limited to: intentionally losing games to secure a better draft pick or matchup; "renting" or "loaning" players; excessive complaining or disruption over league rulings (voicing complaints is encouraged, continuing to bring them up is not); intentionally adding and dropping players to activate the 24-hour waiver timer; intentionally destroying the competitive balance of the league (e.g. trading away your best players for little return or cutting them outright).

I can't agree strongly enough with Adam's response.

Yeah, it seems silly at first blush to not have something as simple as a time limit for your draft, but if these are guys who've been doing this together for a decade or so, maybe everyone's just thought it would never be needed - and I'm not a fan of crafting additional rules "just in case". In fact my philosophy as a commish has always been that, no matter what the league, the rules will fit on one sheet of 8.5"x11" paper in normal-size type. And the last rule is always what I call the Justice Stewart Rule: "Play fair. I can't define for you exactly what's unfair, but I know it when I see it."

These are two owners who are clearly circumventing the spirit of the rookie draft, no matter what the letter of the law says. Allow them reasonable time to make their picks, but make clear that either they need to follow the spirit of the league rules, or invite them to go find another one.

 

[JPeso]

Pretty crafty if you ask me. If they're both in agreement and there's nothing in the bylaws then there's nothing you can really do. Propose a rule change/amendment for next year if it bothers enough people.

Agree as well. Post a message board topic that you don't disagree with what the owner is doing based on bylaws, but that you'd like to put to vote to close the loophole for next year. You'll get more people voting for the change immediately rather than waiting several months when the tactic is less fresh in everyone's minds.

 

[gandalas]

The only possible exception would be a ruling that said you have to finish the draft before week 1 of the regular season. Other than that, if there is nothing currently in the bylaws regarding it, then nothing you can ethically do.

I'd say that if there are 8 picks left, then the draft will go to a 24-hour limit starting 9 days before the regular season. Anything beyond that would be violating your own league rules. If the majority does not like the tactic, then vote on a change to go in effect next offseason.

 

[gianmarco]

If you don't want to make a rule change, you can also make a simple clarification that you like to have ethical owners in the league and they won't be allowed to return after this year. No rule change necessary, pretty sure they'll make their picks timely.