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STAR WARS: EP 7 ***SPOILER ZONE*** - Go here if you've seen it (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Insein
- Start date
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Insein
Footballguy
Seeing the other plot holes in the movie, I would believe they could make Rey Lando's daughter at this point and not give a #### what anyone thinks.
Insein
Footballguy
MattFancy
Footballguy
I had just read that and was coming in here to post it. Makes some sense to me and I could buy that.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
I had a slightly different take.
Fully onboard with Ren wanting to complete Vader's destiny to bring balance to the force.
But I see that as the elimination of both the Jedi and the Sith. Instead there will be a new group of Knights who use BOTH the Light and Dark side and learn to balance the two as appropriate to the situation.
Fully onboard with Ren wanting to complete Vader's destiny to bring balance to the force.
But I see that as the elimination of both the Jedi and the Sith. Instead there will be a new group of Knights who use BOTH the Light and Dark side and learn to balance the two as appropriate to the situation.
packersfan
Footballguy
Pretty tough sell to convince people murdering Han in cold blood was all part of a good guy's plan. Very tough sell actually.
Abrams has gone on record saying the decision to kill Han was done in large part to show just how evil Kylo has become. Perhaps he's turned to the Good Side later by Rey (echoing Luke/Vader) but at this point I think he's full on Dark Side.
Abrams has gone on record saying the decision to kill Han was done in large part to show just how evil Kylo has become. Perhaps he's turned to the Good Side later by Rey (echoing Luke/Vader) but at this point I think he's full on Dark Side.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
parrot
Footballguy
Billy Bats
Footballguy
packersfan
Footballguy
Fair enough.
I'm not buying it. I don't know enough about Harry Potter to say if it worked in that story but just seems to me murdering Han Solo as part of a master plan to save the galaxy is gonna be a real tough sell. Not sure Abrams/Kasdan wanna go there. Maybe Ford would
Mario Kart
Footballguy
I gave a brief description a couple days ago that this internet father said. He didn't credit me.
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Worm
slimy ninja
If we're talking about real balance, real resolution, then the sacrifice of one person is not hard to believe.Fair enough.
I'm not buying it. I don't know enough about Harry Potter to say if it worked in that story but just seems to me murdering Han Solo as part of a master plan to save the galaxy is gonna be a real tough sell. Not sure Abrams/Kasdan wanna go there. Maybe Ford would
packersfan
Footballguy
Sacrifice is one thing. Murder is another.If we're talking about real balance, real resolution, then the sacrifice of one person is not hard to believe.Fair enough.
I'm not buying it. I don't know enough about Harry Potter to say if it worked in that story but just seems to me murdering Han Solo as part of a master plan to save the galaxy is gonna be a real tough sell. Not sure Abrams/Kasdan wanna go there. Maybe Ford would
Ultimately Star Wars is a positive story. It has its darker moments but at its heart it's uplifting. I don't think Abrams/Kasdan will stray from that. Having Luke (or whoever but assuming it would be Luke) concoct a plan to save the galaxy forever that includes murdering his best friend (not to mention arguably the most popular character in the SW universe) would be a pretty dark way to go. Just can't see this happening.
Billy Bats
Footballguy
Tough sell? He's already dead, the deed is done. Making it worthwhile down the road will bring relief and "honor" to his death, could only help it instead of hurt it more.Fair enough.JJ: "no, Benjamin Cumberbatch is not Khan."He lies.
ETA: it's murder now, can't change that fact other than make it a for a positive reason.
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Capella
Footballguy
I don't think Disney is going to limit this story to just episode 9. Not sure I believe they are looking to tie this whole store together in another beat trilogy package. There's a lot of story to tell and money to be made here. Any chance it extends out to 10-11 or further?
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
They will run it like they do with Marvel in phases.
Phase 1 is set through 2021 with 7,8, and 9 and 3 anthology films.
They will probably determine the direction of phase 2 in 2018-2019 time frame.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
And that phase will be without the old character for the most part with survivors making cameos at best I'd say (save for droids and cgi).
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Kathleen Kennedy may have misspoke, but yesterday during a premier in London with the main cast on stage with her, she said, twice in fact, that all cast members present that night would be returning for Episode 8.
Harrison Ford was there so if she was telling the truth then we might see Han in some sort of flash back, which might tie in to explaining the Rey back story.
Harrison Ford was there so if she was telling the truth then we might see Han in some sort of flash back, which might tie in to explaining the Rey back story.
Skoo
Footballguy
There seems to be quite a few people who just can't get past the fact that Rey learned to use the force so fast, as if it's some kind of plot hole.
First of all, there's a million ways they could explain her use of the force. Everyone keeps pointing to how long it took Luke to learn to use the lightsaber. Who's to say Rey isn't WAY stronger with the force than Luke? Or that she wasn't already trained with the lightsaber? (as has been mentioned)
As others have suggested, Luke may have had her with a woman who was also force-sensitive. For all we know, she is more force-sensitive than Vader was.
Secondly, I don't see any way that this was some sort of accident or oversight. They WANTED us to see that Rey was more naturally gifted with the force. They KEPT showing Kylo's wound and dripping blood during the final battle, so we knew he wasn't nearly his normal strength.
Rey not letting Kylo get in her head, calling the lightsaber to her instead of Kylo, and beating him in the battle were all very purposely meant to show us that at this point, Rey is far more powerful with the force.
I imagine we'll find out why in the next movie. But to act like this was some huge oversight on JJ's part seems very unlikely to me, considering the time and detail that went into making this movie.
First of all, there's a million ways they could explain her use of the force. Everyone keeps pointing to how long it took Luke to learn to use the lightsaber. Who's to say Rey isn't WAY stronger with the force than Luke? Or that she wasn't already trained with the lightsaber? (as has been mentioned)
As others have suggested, Luke may have had her with a woman who was also force-sensitive. For all we know, she is more force-sensitive than Vader was.
Secondly, I don't see any way that this was some sort of accident or oversight. They WANTED us to see that Rey was more naturally gifted with the force. They KEPT showing Kylo's wound and dripping blood during the final battle, so we knew he wasn't nearly his normal strength.
Rey not letting Kylo get in her head, calling the lightsaber to her instead of Kylo, and beating him in the battle were all very purposely meant to show us that at this point, Rey is far more powerful with the force.
I imagine we'll find out why in the next movie. But to act like this was some huge oversight on JJ's part seems very unlikely to me, considering the time and detail that went into making this movie.
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bagger
Footballguy
how could there not be, Disney is not just gong to let this ip not generate cash flow.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Han recognized who she was. He might have never met her....but he knew she was Luke's kid.
Worm
slimy ninja
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
this is a common misconception among fans because of the word "balance"
Here is a key piece from Wookipedia
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force#The_Jedi_Order
Traditional Jedi were keen to keep the Force "in balance". They attempted to achieve this by destroying the Sith and denying the dark side—essentially "keeping balance" by restoring the Force to its natural state, as they viewed the dark side as "corruption".
=================================
Here is what Lucas has said to back this theory up
Many fans incorrectly assume that balance refers to an equal mix of both light and dark side users. However, as George Lucas explains in the introductory documentary for the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition, this is not the case:
"[...] Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."
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17seconds
root of all aliai
People are questioning whether Rey is Luke's daughter? If she isn't that would ruin the best part of the movie for me. Love the idea of a female who is very strong with the force, and the ending of the movie was fantastic.
Overall I liked it a lot, didn't love it. Here are my criticisms: The movie didn't fly by. I wouldn't call it slow but I wasn't glued to it. Ford and Fisher are so old it felt like their characters weren't right. The big moments were predictable for me - Ren killing Solo and Rey using the force to get the lightsaber out of the snow. Abrams re-did so many scenes from the original trilogy it almost felt like a remake. That's mostly a good thing but there was just so much of it that it felt compulsory. Also would have liked Luke to have made a grand entrance in a battle near the end with some Jedis in tow, kicking ###. That would have been awesome. We didn't get enough Luke.
What I really liked about it was how they setup the next generation for the new trilogy. I like the family lineage choices they made. The next 2 movies are setup for success.
Overall I liked it a lot, didn't love it. Here are my criticisms: The movie didn't fly by. I wouldn't call it slow but I wasn't glued to it. Ford and Fisher are so old it felt like their characters weren't right. The big moments were predictable for me - Ren killing Solo and Rey using the force to get the lightsaber out of the snow. Abrams re-did so many scenes from the original trilogy it almost felt like a remake. That's mostly a good thing but there was just so much of it that it felt compulsory. Also would have liked Luke to have made a grand entrance in a battle near the end with some Jedis in tow, kicking ###. That would have been awesome. We didn't get enough Luke.
What I really liked about it was how they setup the next generation for the new trilogy. I like the family lineage choices they made. The next 2 movies are setup for success.
packersfan
Footballguy
I think so too. Cutting away from Han/Maz at the exact moment she asks him who Rey is and then going straight to the Luke lightsaber scene sure seems a pretty big whopping clue about who she is. I agree Han knew and that's why he asked her to join him and Chewie. For whatever reason (which we're bound to learn) Han couldn't tell Rey who she was but this was his way of trying to protect his niece. An understated act of heroism which was always his preferred way of operating.
Capella
Footballguy
That's cool if you're into tattoos.
Saw a guy at Disney the other day with a SUPPORT OUR TROOPS tat, with a storm trooper underneath.
Capella
Footballguy
I kept waiting for Luke during that battle as well; but that ending was so good any other introduction to him seems inferior now.
packersfan
Footballguy
Using Han in the past tense makes me sad. :(
17seconds
root of all aliai
AcerFC
Footballguy
Luke is kind of a ####
Who runs out when the going gets tough. You blame yourself, boo hoo. Lots of people #### up. Pick yourself up by the bootstraps and light that saber for the good of the cause. But no, he goes off and leaves everyone behind to do some soul searching while 5 planets get blown up by the bigger version of the death star
Who runs out when the going gets tough. You blame yourself, boo hoo. Lots of people #### up. Pick yourself up by the bootstraps and light that saber for the good of the cause. But no, he goes off and leaves everyone behind to do some soul searching while 5 planets get blown up by the bigger version of the death star
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
Here's my off the cuff theory: JJ knew that so many hard core fans were upset with how the prequels were done, he made a conscious decision to get into their good graces. Instead of saying "I have a bad feeling about this" fifteen times a movie, he said it once, and did several other things purposefully to show that he was making a Star Wars movie, and not just a lazy BS money grab that is going to ruin the movies that came before it.
Now that he has shown he's making a Star Wars movie, he's free to bring the universe whereever he wants to, and he has the fans following along.
I don't think it is going out on a limb to say that future movies won't be so heavy in the re-dos, escpecially considering he re-did parts of each of the three original movies.
Billy Bats
Footballguy
Really good point pack. You just made me realize that Maz suddenly wants to give up the lightsaber after all these years and ironically right after she asked Han who she was.
Rey's acid trip after touching it was just icing on the cake.
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packersfan
Footballguy
For what it's worth he doesn't look real happy with his decision when we finally see him.
packersfan
Footballguy
I can see that and it makes sense. For whatever issues I had with the film I still liked it a lot and it's still without a shadow of a doubt a Star Wars movie. JJ hit the mark completely there.
AcerFC
Footballguy
packersfan
Footballguy
Plus there's the stuff from the trailers that got cut like the "Who are you?" "I've seen eyes like yours (paraphrasing)" and the let the force in stuff all from Maz. Maybe it was cut because Abrams thought it would give too much away too soon and too clearly about who Rey was.Really good point pack. You just made me realize that Maz suddenly wants to give up the lightsaber after all these years and ironically right after she asked Han who she was.
ETA - I'm pretty sure Maz also wouldn't wanna give Luke's lightsaber to just anyone who might have the force. It would have to be someone special and someone strongly connected to Luke.
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packersfan
Footballguy
I'm with you. I do think we'll get an answer as to why Luke left given how important the We Have To Find Luke thing was to this story. I think it goes beyond Ben went bad.
Insein
Footballguy
He never said he's not Khan. He said he's playing a character named John Harrison.JJ: "no, Benjamin Cumberbatch is not Khan."He lies.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Here are all the occurrences
Obi in 1
Anikan in 2
Obi in 3
Luke in 4*
Han in 4
Leia in 5
C3PO in 6*
Han in 6
Han in 7
* These were slightly different
Luke in 4: "I have a very bad feeling about this."
C3PO in 6: "Artoo, I have a bad feeling about this."
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Insein
Footballguy
But they didn't even use one. They just let her go out there and be Supergirl with no explanation. Left it for part 2 to explain. That's cheap to me.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
not for me. I hate being spoon fed answers early in a story. I find it much more interesting to watch the speculation knowing that you don't always get answers in the early chapters when reading a book.
packersfan
Footballguy
I don't think it was cheap but it definitely was not the self-contained story Abrams promised it would be and that did disappoint me.
What's funny to me is all the people criticizing this for being a re-hash of the first film but the first film was a self-contained story. The only real cliffhanger was what happened to Vader after Luke destroyed the Death Star. In this film nearly everything was left dangling except for Han. In that respect, this film was nothing like the first one.
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17seconds
root of all aliai
I don't think that's a theory, it's clear that was his strategy to be successful. Use the tried and true concepts from before but do it his way. And I think you are right that he doesn't need to do it again in the next 2 movies.
Also happy we didn't get the JJ lens flares!
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Here are some pertinent responses from JJ in an interview he did. I liked the jab at Lucas in the first answer
==============================
So I tried to not forget the mistakes I’d made, but I also tried to focus on things that I find inspiring about cinema. I asked questions like “How do we make this movie delightful?” That was really the only requirement Larry and I imposed on each other: The movie needed to be delightful. It was not about explaining everything away, not about introducing a certain number of toys for a corporation, not about trying to appease anyone. This has only ever been about what gets us excited.
=================================
The script for VIII is written. I’m sure rewrites are going to be endless, like they always are. But what Larry and I did was set up certain key relationships, certain key questions, conflicts. And we knew where certain things were going. We had meetings with Rian and Ram Bergman, the producer of VIII. They were watching dailies when we were shooting our movie. We wanted them to be part of the process, to make the transition to their film as seamless as possible. I showed Rian an early cut of the movie, because I knew he was doing his rewrite and prepping. And as executive producer of VIII, I need that movie to be really good. Withholding serves no one and certainly not the fans. So we’ve been as transparent as possible.
Rian has asked for a couple of things here and there that he needs for his story. He is an incredibly accomplished filmmaker and an incredibly strong writer. So the story he told took what we were doing and went in the direction that he felt was best but that is very much in line with what we were thinking as well. But you’re right—that will be his movie; he’s going to do it in the way he sees fit. He’s neither asking for nor does he need me to oversee the process.
==============================
So I tried to not forget the mistakes I’d made, but I also tried to focus on things that I find inspiring about cinema. I asked questions like “How do we make this movie delightful?” That was really the only requirement Larry and I imposed on each other: The movie needed to be delightful. It was not about explaining everything away, not about introducing a certain number of toys for a corporation, not about trying to appease anyone. This has only ever been about what gets us excited.
=================================
The script for VIII is written. I’m sure rewrites are going to be endless, like they always are. But what Larry and I did was set up certain key relationships, certain key questions, conflicts. And we knew where certain things were going. We had meetings with Rian and Ram Bergman, the producer of VIII. They were watching dailies when we were shooting our movie. We wanted them to be part of the process, to make the transition to their film as seamless as possible. I showed Rian an early cut of the movie, because I knew he was doing his rewrite and prepping. And as executive producer of VIII, I need that movie to be really good. Withholding serves no one and certainly not the fans. So we’ve been as transparent as possible.
Rian has asked for a couple of things here and there that he needs for his story. He is an incredibly accomplished filmmaker and an incredibly strong writer. So the story he told took what we were doing and went in the direction that he felt was best but that is very much in line with what we were thinking as well. But you’re right—that will be his movie; he’s going to do it in the way he sees fit. He’s neither asking for nor does he need me to oversee the process.
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AcerFC
Footballguy
nice.Here are some pertinent responses from JJ in an interview he did. I liked the jab at Lucas in the first answer
==============================
So I tried to not forget the mistakes I’d made, but I also tried to focus on things that I find inspiring about cinema. I asked questions like “How do we make this movie delightful?” That was really the only requirement Larry and I imposed on each other: The movie needed to be delightful. It was not about explaining everything away, not about introducing a certain number of toys for a corporation, not about trying to appease anyone. This has only ever been about what gets us excited.
=================================
The script for VIII is written. I’m sure rewrites are going to be endless, like they always are. But what Larry and I did was set up certain key relationships, certain key questions, conflicts. And we knew where certain things were going. We had meetings with Rian and Ram Bergman, the producer of VIII. They were watching dailies when we were shooting our movie. We wanted them to be part of the process, to make the transition to their film as seamless as possible. I showed Rian an early cut of the movie, because I knew he was doing his rewrite and prepping. And as executive producer of VIII, I need that movie to be really good. Withholding serves no one and certainly not the fans. So we’ve been as transparent as possible.
Rian has asked for a couple of things here and there that he needs for his story. He is an incredibly accomplished filmmaker and an incredibly strong writer. So the story he told took what we were doing and went in the direction that he felt was best but that is very much in line with what we were thinking as well. But you’re right—that will be his movie; he’s going to do it in the way he sees fit. He’s neither asking for nor does he need me to oversee the process.
Its such a good feeling to really want to see a movie that is still years away
Well done JJ
Insein
Footballguy
That's why it's a rehash. They obviously didn't reshoot scene for scene the original movie. They borrowed many of the familiar elements to purposely overload peoples nostalgia sense.
The movie has good scenes and good acting. The characters have the potential to be interesting but this doesn't feel like its in the Star Wars galaxy. It feels like they picked up the people and moved them somewhere else and started a new story there. I'm disappointed in the concerted effort to avoid everything prequel. I know its so in fashion now to bash them and most will not have any problems ignoring them completely but world building the originals and prequels did was the best part of it. They fit each world into the whole and gave you a feel that this was a big galaxy. Everything in this movie felt like it was in the same solar system it all happened so close to each other. Hardly any time passes from beginning to end.
Hopefully the next one explains a lot of it so we're not left hanging till 9.
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