State of Washington suspends Death Penalty (1 Viewer)

[Koya]

I have no idea of the numbers, but I would be interested in how many people are wrongly killed by the death penalty compared to how many people are killed or who's lives are ruined via "rehabilitated" ex-murderers or rapists that were released. People like to harp on the few "innocent" people that are harmed by a punishment being too strict but nobody cares about the innocent people that are harmed by a punishment being too lenient, of which my best guess would be that there are FAR more.

You look at a guy like Alan Weston, who kidnapped, tied up, and violently and repeatedly raped a 15 year old girl who only survived because she eventually managed to escape. The guy had already been released from prison 8 years after breaking into a house, tying up a guy, and forcing him to watch him violently rape the guy's wife. Why the heck does someone that does that ever get another chance? But he does, because giving people another chance is considered the altruistic thing to do. How altruistic does the 15 year old girl that later had her life completely ruined feel that is now?

Sure, if there's any kind of reasonable doubt around a trial then take the death penalty off the table. I have no problem with that. But as others have said, when you have a patently obvious and terrible crime like the Colorado theater shooting the only problem with the death penalty is that we're going to have to wait 15 years for this guy to being gone. I can agree that it's a poor deterrent, but isn't a major part of that because being peacefully executed without pain 15 years down the line doesn't really sound that bad to someone that wants to go kill/rape an innocent person?

I am not suggesting that we don't overhaul our entire criminal justice system in this respect... but there is too much evidence (hard and otherwise) for me to accept that state sponsored killings of its citizens is, overall, a positive for our society.

Now, that doesn't mean everyone can be rehabbed. It doesn't mean a lot of people should never see the light of a free day. But, imo at least, it does mean that capital punishment is more bad, than good in regard to society's well being as a whole.

It's just interesting to me that people are more concerned with criminals being punished too harshly when it seems to me that the bigger problem is innocent people being affected by criminals that are punished too leniently. The number of people who's lives have been ruined by repeat offenders likely DWARFS the number of innocent people who's lives were affected by punishments that are too harsh.

They are not mutually exclusive. Abolishing the death penalty would likely have almost no or no impact on recidivism. You should assume that someone who is given the death penalty can just as easily get "real" life in prison. And we do need to do a better job for those who are not sentenced to the remainder of their days...

but as has become a refrain here, it seems more about "punishment" than securing society and certainly (when possible, and not in cases where capital punishment would be considered) more about "punishment" than rehabilitation. Short answer imo is it makes us feel better to hurt the bad guy and see others suffer, the schadenfreude is too strong, to really look at the issue and say how can we do BETTER. Instead, we say screw the bad guy, rot in hell... oh but don't do anything bad when you get out after 12 years.

 

[Fennis]

That does not change the fact that the death penalty does more harm to society than good, as I discussed above - even without the killing of innocents, which can't be "taken back" and, by the way, happens WAY to often. So much so it's appalling that a free nation would be so ok with it.

Care to prove this?

I suppose we would have to agree first on what WAY means.

From my perspective, if there is a LOT of benefit to society from capital punishment than at least logically I could understand (if not accept fully) the idea that, hey, sometimes bad things happen to good people (or not really bad people) but the overall good outweighs the death of a few.

However, considering the other issues, namely that it costs more and doesn't deter, then even ONE innocent death has no excuse.

That said, I'd have to dig up some of the stats / articles, but I know they've been discussed on these boards. With DNA testing, its becoming more and more apparent that we have convicted people who are not guilty and in many cases it means they are exonerated after years / decades in jail... something that is not possible if that person was executed.

Maybe someone else has easy access to the stats?

I'll help you out. There has NEVER been a proven case where an innocent person was executed. There was a guy in Texas that many people believe was innocently executed, but even his case hasn't been proven and he's the best example there is.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent#also

There is no way to tell how many of the over 1,000 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some cases with strong evidence of innocence include:

Carlos DeLuna Texas Conviction: 1983, Executed: 1989Ruben Cantu Texas Convicted: 1985, Executed: 1993

Larry Griffin Missouri Conviction: 1981, Executed: 1995

Joseph O'Dell Virginia Conviction: 1986, Executed: 1997

David Spence Texas Conviction: 1984, Executed: 1997

Leo Jones Florida Convicted: 1981, Executed: 1998

Gary Graham Texas Convicted: 1981, Executed: 2000,

Claude Jones Texas Convicted 1989, Executed 2000

Cameron Willingham Texas Convicted: 1992, Executed: 2004
Troy Davis Georgia Convicted 1991 Executed 2011
Also Noted - Post-humous pardons and new information about people who may have been wrongfully executed prior to 1976.

Executed But Possibly Innocent

how would you like to prove someone innocent was executed? Courts won't hear the case after they are dead. The link also includes people posthumously pardoned.

 

[Koya]

That does not change the fact that the death penalty does more harm to society than good, as I discussed above - even without the killing of innocents, which can't be "taken back" and, by the way, happens WAY to often. So much so it's appalling that a free nation would be so ok with it.

Care to prove this?

I suppose we would have to agree first on what WAY means.

From my perspective, if there is a LOT of benefit to society from capital punishment than at least logically I could understand (if not accept fully) the idea that, hey, sometimes bad things happen to good people (or not really bad people) but the overall good outweighs the death of a few.

However, considering the other issues, namely that it costs more and doesn't deter, then even ONE innocent death has no excuse.

That said, I'd have to dig up some of the stats / articles, but I know they've been discussed on these boards. With DNA testing, its becoming more and more apparent that we have convicted people who are not guilty and in many cases it means they are exonerated after years / decades in jail... something that is not possible if that person was executed.

Maybe someone else has easy access to the stats?

I'll help you out. There has NEVER been a proven case where an innocent person was executed. There was a guy in Texas that many people believe was innocently executed, but even his case hasn't been proven and he's the best example there is.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent#also

There is no way to tell how many of the over 1,000 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some cases with strong evidence of innocence include:

Carlos DeLuna Texas Conviction: 1983, Executed: 1989Ruben Cantu Texas Convicted: 1985, Executed: 1993

Larry Griffin Missouri Conviction: 1981, Executed: 1995

Joseph O'Dell Virginia Conviction: 1986, Executed: 1997

David Spence Texas Conviction: 1984, Executed: 1997

Leo Jones Florida Convicted: 1981, Executed: 1998

Gary Graham Texas Convicted: 1981, Executed: 2000,

Claude Jones Texas Convicted 1989, Executed 2000

Cameron Willingham Texas Convicted: 1992, Executed: 2004
Troy Davis Georgia Convicted 1991 Executed 2011
Also Noted - Post-humous pardons and new information about people who may have been wrongfully executed prior to 1976.

Executed But Possibly Innocent

Are you saying you are ok with this?

Are you saying you feel we have NEVER killed someone who is innocent?

This is something I have trouble coming to grips with. Do people really just not care, or do you REALLY believe that we only kill the actual guilty party, every time, in the fact of so much evidence to the contrary?

To me, I can not in good conscience support something that I know (beyond a reasonable doubt at least) has and will result in killing innocent people. Sorry, just not cool with me.

 

[jonessed]

I have no idea of the numbers, but I would be interested in how many people are wrongly killed by the death penalty compared to how many people are killed or who's lives are ruined via "rehabilitated" ex-murderers or rapists that were released. People like to harp on the few "innocent" people that are harmed by a punishment being too strict but nobody cares about the innocent people that are harmed by a punishment being too lenient, of which my best guess would be that there are FAR more.

You look at a guy like Alan Weston, who kidnapped, tied up, and violently and repeatedly raped a 15 year old girl who only survived because she eventually managed to escape. The guy had already been released from prison 8 years after breaking into a house, tying up a guy, and forcing him to watch him violently rape the guy's wife. Why the heck does someone that does that ever get another chance? But he does, because giving people another chance is considered the altruistic thing to do. How altruistic does the 15 year old girl that later had her life completely ruined feel that is now?

Sure, if there's any kind of reasonable doubt around a trial then take the death penalty off the table. I have no problem with that. But as others have said, when you have a patently obvious and terrible crime like the Colorado theater shooting the only problem with the death penalty is that we're going to have to wait 15 years for this guy to being gone. I can agree that it's a poor deterrent, but isn't a major part of that because being peacefully executed without pain 15 years down the line doesn't really sound that bad to someone that wants to go kill/rape an innocent person?

I am not suggesting that we don't overhaul our entire criminal justice system in this respect... but there is too much evidence (hard and otherwise) for me to accept that state sponsored killings of its citizens is, overall, a positive for our society.

Now, that doesn't mean everyone can be rehabbed. It doesn't mean a lot of people should never see the light of a free day. But, imo at least, it does mean that capital punishment is more bad, than good in regard to society's well being as a whole.

There is plenty of statistical evidence that states with the death penalty have more of the crimes the death penalty is supposed to deter. And yes it is sold as a deterrent.

I don't know how effective of a deterrent it actually is, but statistics like those don't really mean much.

 

[StrikeS2k]

That does not change the fact that the death penalty does more harm to society than good, as I discussed above - even without the killing of innocents, which can't be "taken back" and, by the way, happens WAY to often. So much so it's appalling that a free nation would be so ok with it.

Care to prove this?

I suppose we would have to agree first on what WAY means.

From my perspective, if there is a LOT of benefit to society from capital punishment than at least logically I could understand (if not accept fully) the idea that, hey, sometimes bad things happen to good people (or not really bad people) but the overall good outweighs the death of a few.

However, considering the other issues, namely that it costs more and doesn't deter, then even ONE innocent death has no excuse.

That said, I'd have to dig up some of the stats / articles, but I know they've been discussed on these boards. With DNA testing, its becoming more and more apparent that we have convicted people who are not guilty and in many cases it means they are exonerated after years / decades in jail... something that is not possible if that person was executed.

Maybe someone else has easy access to the stats?

I'll help you out. There has NEVER been a proven case where an innocent person was executed. There was a guy in Texas that many people believe was innocently executed, but even his case hasn't been proven and he's the best example there is.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent#also

There is no way to tell how many of the over 1,000 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some cases with strong evidence of innocence include:

Carlos DeLuna Texas Conviction: 1983, Executed: 1989Ruben Cantu Texas Convicted: 1985, Executed: 1993

Larry Griffin Missouri Conviction: 1981, Executed: 1995

Joseph O'Dell Virginia Conviction: 1986, Executed: 1997

David Spence Texas Conviction: 1984, Executed: 1997

Leo Jones Florida Convicted: 1981, Executed: 1998

Gary Graham Texas Convicted: 1981, Executed: 2000,

Claude Jones Texas Convicted 1989, Executed 2000

Cameron Willingham Texas Convicted: 1992, Executed: 2004
Troy Davis Georgia Convicted 1991 Executed 2011
Also Noted - Post-humous pardons and new information about people who may have been wrongfully executed prior to 1976.

Executed But Possibly Innocent

Are you saying you are ok with this?

Are you saying you feel we have NEVER killed someone who is innocent?

This is something I have trouble coming to grips with. Do people really just not care, or do you REALLY believe that we only kill the actual guilty party, every time, in the fact of so much evidence to the contrary?

To me, I can not in good conscience support something that I know (beyond a reasonable doubt at least) has and will result in killing innocent people. Sorry, just not cool with me.

I am not saying any of the above. As I said to NCCommish, feel free to find any of the older DP threads and find my stance on reforms. Then get back to me on what I believe.

I called you out because you said you had formed your opinion after doing a lot of reading of FACTS regarding the DP. Well, I can tell you that it is a FACT that no one has even been executed and then proven to have been innocent. I am making no other factual assertion than that. You can believe someone has been executed who was innocent. I have no issue with that. But don't express it as fact because that is simply not true.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I am not suggesting that we don't overhaul our entire criminal justice system in this respect... but there is too much evidence (hard and otherwise) for me to accept that state sponsored killings of its citizens is, overall, a positive for our society.

Now, that doesn't mean everyone can be rehabbed. It doesn't mean a lot of people should never see the light of a free day. But, imo at least, it does mean that capital punishment is more bad, than good in regard to society's well being as a whole.

It's just interesting to me that people are more concerned with criminals being punished too harshly when it seems to me that the bigger problem is innocent people being affected by criminals that are punished too leniently. The number of people who's lives have been ruined by repeat offenders likely DWARFS the number of innocent people who's lives were affected by punishments that are too harsh.

They are not mutually exclusive. Abolishing the death penalty would likely have almost no or no impact on recidivism. You should assume that someone who is given the death penalty can just as easily get "real" life in prison. And we do need to do a better job for those who are not sentenced to the remainder of their days...

but as has become a refrain here, it seems more about "punishment" than securing society and certainly (when possible, and not in cases where capital punishment would be considered) more about "punishment" than rehabilitation. Short answer imo is it makes us feel better to hurt the bad guy and see others suffer, the schadenfreude is too strong, to really look at the issue and say how can we do BETTER. Instead, we say screw the bad guy, rot in hell... oh but don't do anything bad when you get out after 12 years.

Perhaps I'm getting a bit off topic, but I was somewhat just commenting on how so much time, effort, and arguing is put into the death penalty because of its catchy headline when really it is the smallest and least important issue with the current justice system. Lifetime imprisonment of an innocent person is just as bad as 15 years of imprisonment followed by death.

To your second point, I think that for every person that cares more about "punishment" than making society better there is another person that pushes too hard for rehabilitation based merely on the idea of altruism over actually making society better. An altruistic gesture that makes things worse is not a good thing just because it was altruistic at heart. I believe that far more emphasis should be placed on protecting the innocent people that have done nothing wrong and are affected by repeat offenders than should be placed on making sure the poor little evil people get 2nd and 3rd chances that their victims never got.

To your last point, I do think that punishment can be a deterrent, but not with the weak spectrum at which it's currently applied to many horrifically heinous crimes.

 

[Koya]

That does not change the fact that the death penalty does more harm to society than good, as I discussed above - even without the killing of innocents, which can't be "taken back" and, by the way, happens WAY to often. So much so it's appalling that a free nation would be so ok with it.

Care to prove this?

I suppose we would have to agree first on what WAY means.

From my perspective, if there is a LOT of benefit to society from capital punishment than at least logically I could understand (if not accept fully) the idea that, hey, sometimes bad things happen to good people (or not really bad people) but the overall good outweighs the death of a few.

However, considering the other issues, namely that it costs more and doesn't deter, then even ONE innocent death has no excuse.

That said, I'd have to dig up some of the stats / articles, but I know they've been discussed on these boards. With DNA testing, its becoming more and more apparent that we have convicted people who are not guilty and in many cases it means they are exonerated after years / decades in jail... something that is not possible if that person was executed.

Maybe someone else has easy access to the stats?

I'll help you out. There has NEVER been a proven case where an innocent person was executed. There was a guy in Texas that many people believe was innocently executed, but even his case hasn't been proven and he's the best example there is.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent#alsoThere is no way to tell how many of the over 1,000 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some cases with strong evidence of innocence include:

Carlos DeLuna Texas Conviction: 1983, Executed: 1989

Ruben Cantu Texas Convicted: 1985, Executed: 1993

Larry Griffin Missouri Conviction: 1981, Executed: 1995

Joseph O'Dell Virginia Conviction: 1986, Executed: 1997

David Spence Texas Conviction: 1984, Executed: 1997

Leo Jones Florida Convicted: 1981, Executed: 1998

Gary Graham Texas Convicted: 1981, Executed: 2000,

Claude Jones Texas Convicted 1989, Executed 2000

Cameron Willingham Texas Convicted: 1992, Executed: 2004

Troy Davis Georgia Convicted 1991 Executed 2011

Also Noted - Post-humous pardons and new information about people who may have been wrongfully executed prior to 1976.

Executed But Possibly Innocent

Are you saying you are ok with this?

Are you saying you feel we have NEVER killed someone who is innocent?

This is something I have trouble coming to grips with. Do people really just not care, or do you REALLY believe that we only kill the actual guilty party, every time, in the fact of so much evidence to the contrary?

To me, I can not in good conscience support something that I know (beyond a reasonable doubt at least) has and will result in killing innocent people. Sorry, just not cool with me.

I am not saying any of the above. As I said to NCCommish, feel free to find any of the older DP threads and find my stance on reforms. Then get back to me on what I believe.

I called you out because you said you had formed your opinion after doing a lot of reading of FACTS regarding the DP. Well, I can tell you that it is a FACT that no one has even been executed and then proven to have been innocent. I am making no other factual assertion than that. You can believe someone has been executed who was innocent. I have no issue with that. But don't express it as fact because that is simply not true.

To avoid semantics I'll just clarifies that I am convinced, beyond any reasonable doubt that we have killed innocent people. I would even posit that it's intellectually disingenuous to suggest that we have not done so.

There's a greater chance IMO that dinosaurs never existed than that we have not killed an innocent person.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

10 days too late for the Broncos

 

[ffldrew]

Governor Hickenlooper did that here in Colorado after delaying the scheduled execution of Nathan Dunlap - a kid at the time who murdered several people at a Chuck E Cheese here in Colorado - no one is doubting he did the crime. But the Governor is/was Quaker raised and decided that he would delay this in hopes of having a "conversation" about it - and really let the next guy do it as it is against his conscious . He is getting raked over the coals pretty bad by this one and it is a shame we can't have a conversation from the mouth breathers, it does need to happen - of course it's the eye for an eye crowd out for this one. He is going to be in a dogfight for reelection because of this and some gun legislation passed.

He's getting raked over the coals because he punted to the next administration. He doesn't want to have a conversation about it. He just doesn't want to deal with it.

He said he wanted to have a conversation - now I will grant you that he's not out there every day talking about this.

 

[Koya]

10 days too late for the Broncos

Oh, hai.