Sabertooth
Footballguy
I think this is a first. But I agree 100% with Capella here. Why not just cut the bull#### and call it what it is.
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Steroids: Why We Look the Other Way (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Maurile Tremblay
- Start date
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Its extreme, but its appropriate.Steroid use by minors is an "extreme" problem, with a vast and wide ranging affect.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
No. The toxins from cigerettes have been *proven to CAUSE cancer and thus kill people via this cancer. Among other health risks.*scientifcally proven. Understand?
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
fyi slumlord, I do see how someone would have hard time seperating the differences.
I just dont happen to be one of them. There are very distinct differences in your analogy.
I just dont happen to be one of them. There are very distinct differences in your analogy.
Ok so adults then...so 18 years old? High school seniors, but then that is hardly fair to the Juniors who are a year or so younger and not able to juice up, plus it doesn't really eliminate the problem of steroids in high school. But if that is still too young how about 20 or 21? Now that won't really work either since you then have legally juiced up 20 year olds slamming into 18 or 19 year old college freshmen. The only fair way to do it is just a blanket ban. Personally give me the days of Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth where they used to play while getting drunk. Now that's a time when men were men.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Make it 21 years of age, just be on the safe/smart side. And no games or semantics will have to be used when discussing it.
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Minors using steroids is a pretty big issue IMO. This is why a legalization of steroids at the NFL level almost gives it a pass, or at least tells kids that the only way you will ever make it is to juice up.BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
They already are. They will all be adults who can make these choices (drugs/sports/military/sex/etc.) for themselves and understand the implications associated with these choices.
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Yes and very true. I just don't see how if I'm the 20 year old on the team who can leagally take steroids, and you are my 18 year old freshman teammate. How are you not going to end up on steroids?? Peer pressure in it's stongest form.Also having a different set of rules for the players on the same team is not something I'm a fan of. It's a hard issue, and one I think we agree on mostly, I just think that it's one of those things that the best way to do it is just a blanket ban.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Complete banning of collegiate and professional sports to those under 21 who test positive.
And now the issue is about how to handle adults in sports and how they handle themselves... which is much better in just 2 pages of discussion.
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TwinTurbo
Footballguy
I think there are a lot of myths perpetrated by the media about steroids. One myth is that steroids will kill you. Anabolic steroid use does have potential side effects (mostly mild to moderate). But death is not one of the side effects. The only potential long term side effect that could lead to a shortened life would be heart disease or potential liver damage from certain types of oral steroids. But again, these side effects would only be realized after years of serious steroid abuse and without taking the proper precautions under a responsible doctor's supervision. There are also many different types of anabolic steroids just like there are different types of pain killers. You can take aspirin or you can take morphine. Both will address your pain problem but with different results. The same is true for steroids. They range from mild to extreme and the side effects vary greatly.
I agree that no person under 21 should ever be allowed to take steroids. Certain types of oral and injectable steroids are also too extreme. But some anabolic steroids can actually have health benefits for middle aged men who need hormone therapy. And I don't see any reason why a doctor should not be able to presribe them.
Again, steroids do not cause death. If that were the case, Arnold Schwarzenegger would have died a long time ago. He took more hard core roids than most NFL or MLB players ever did. Hulk Hogan is another example. So is Slyvester Stallone. There's plenty of examples even outside of Pro sports. All of these guys are pushing 60 now, and none of them would be where they are today without the gains they achieved from steroids. Arnold would have never won Mr. Olympia, would have never had a movie career, and would never have been Governor. Think about it.
I agree that no person under 21 should ever be allowed to take steroids. Certain types of oral and injectable steroids are also too extreme. But some anabolic steroids can actually have health benefits for middle aged men who need hormone therapy. And I don't see any reason why a doctor should not be able to presribe them.
Again, steroids do not cause death. If that were the case, Arnold Schwarzenegger would have died a long time ago. He took more hard core roids than most NFL or MLB players ever did. Hulk Hogan is another example. So is Slyvester Stallone. There's plenty of examples even outside of Pro sports. All of these guys are pushing 60 now, and none of them would be where they are today without the gains they achieved from steroids. Arnold would have never won Mr. Olympia, would have never had a movie career, and would never have been Governor. Think about it.
Of course it is. You however, seem to think taking steriods is ok, as long as a doctor gives them to you, which is naive. Here's a little something about steriod use health risks. These are scientifically proven. Understand?Health consequences associated with anabolic steroid abuse include:
Hormonal system disruptions. Reduced sperm production, shrinking of the ####, impotence, and irreversible breast enlargement in boys and men. Decreased body fat and breast size, deepening of the voice, growth of excessive body hair, loss of scalp hair, and clitoral enlargement in girls and women.
Musculoskeletal system effects. Premature and permanent termination of growth among adolescents of both sexes.
Cardiovascular diseases. Heart attacks and strokes.
Liver diseases. Potentially fatal cysts and cancer.
Skin diseases. Acne and cysts.
Infections. In injecting steroid abusers, HIV/AIDS, hepatitis B and C, and infective endocarditis, a potentially fatal inflammation of the inner lining of the heart.
Behavioral effects. Increased aggressive behavior, particularly when high doses are taken. Depression, mood swings, fatigue, restlessness, loss of appetite, and reduced sex drive when steroid abuse is stopped.
Sure, you can find a doctor that tells you taking steriods is ok. Just as easily, i can find one that says your nuts. Not every doctor is the same.
Here's the link if you need more: http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_Notes/NNVol15N3/tearoff.html
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Science please. Link up the lab tests if you would.
>>> Of use. Not abuse. <<<
And the death associated with it.
After all... the goverment will also tell you that marijuana will cause " a darkie to rape a white girl".
And I can point out one exacting lie in that very list... irreversible breast enlargement in boys and men... which can be combated and eliminated through various means. Prehand, during and after. Whoever wrote that is simply uneducated about these medications and its interactions. Or, more then likely, they are using propagandist scare tactics to try influence some people. This tactic obviously works splendidly.
>>> Of use. Not abuse. <<<
And the death associated with it.
After all... the goverment will also tell you that marijuana will cause " a darkie to rape a white girl".
And I can point out one exacting lie in that very list... irreversible breast enlargement in boys and men... which can be combated and eliminated through various means. Prehand, during and after. Whoever wrote that is simply uneducated about these medications and its interactions. Or, more then likely, they are using propagandist scare tactics to try influence some people. This tactic obviously works splendidly.
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TwinTurbo
Footballguy
No one will argue that those are potential side effects. However, not all steroids are the same just like not all pain killers are the same. Some are mild. Some are extreme. Results and side effects will vary. The probability of life threatening side effects would essentially be zero if the steroids were administered responsibly under the care of a physician. The most serious side effects are Cardiovascular and Liver disease. Liver problems would be avoided by not taking oral steroids. Cardiovascular problems would only potentially appear after long term abuse. And by abuse, I mean taking mega doses of hard core roids for years.
I was not going to post in this topic but there is some misinformation present and the opinions are getting heated. To begin, this is an area that I am professionally involved with, both academically and clinically. Without revealing too much, suffice it to say that I am very aware of most issue relating to performance enhancing drugs in general and anabolic steroids in specific.
To begin, anabolic steroids are a controlled substance, which is a DEA designation; distinct from being a banned substance which is defined by various sports organizations. Not all drugs are controlled substances, only those which hold the potential for abuse or addiction. Most anabolic steroids were placed in the controlled substance list as class III drugs, against the recommendations of several professional associations, such as the AMA and government agencies, such as the DEA office of diversion control (Legal Muscle, a book by attorney Rick Collins describes the events preceding the 1990 anabolic steroid act). Later, the 2004 anabolic steroid control act included most of the "precursor" supplements and other related drugs, with the exception of DHEA.
This approach is not dissimilar from the Prohibition movement of the 1920's that lead to the 18th amendment, repealed by the 21st amendment five years later. The argument that alcohol and tobacco, among other routinely available products cause more harm and have a higher addiction risk is a valid point. (Note, prohibition has been called the greatest failed social experiment in American history) This has created a black market for anabolic steroids and has driven the user to street dealers, exposing them to potentially adulterated drugs and restricting them from the screening, direction, supervision and monitoring that a physician might provide. It is the wrong solution.
The primary problem with anabolic steroids at present is the distribution model. It is a black market drug.
But what about the doctors that are prescribing it? They are not legitimately doing so, particularly for young adults with no signs of testosterone deficiency. Anabolic steroids and growth hormone have restrictions preventing a physician from legitimately presecribing or dispensing the drugs for performance or physique enhancement. Several stings have taken place and many doctors have lost their licenses or are facing review. Sadly, it is the "odd" doctors that are doing the prescribing because the practice is not validated by state or federal laws and violates medical ethics (though no concensus exist on this).
There are several people that agree that the use should be allow and direct as part of a patient-physician relationship. Also, there are those who feel that performance enhancing drugs should be allowed and are as ethical as other aids in use (Lance Armstrong had millions of dollars of support designing his bikes, uniforms, positioning his stance in the bike, etc; the US Olympic team won several medals during the 1988 Olympics wearing specially designed and fabricated "shark suits" but it was Ben Johnson who was cheating - note, six of the seven people Johnson beat later tested positive for banned substances, not during the 1988 Olympics).
I am going to post this and then continue so it doesn't exceed post length.
To begin, anabolic steroids are a controlled substance, which is a DEA designation; distinct from being a banned substance which is defined by various sports organizations. Not all drugs are controlled substances, only those which hold the potential for abuse or addiction. Most anabolic steroids were placed in the controlled substance list as class III drugs, against the recommendations of several professional associations, such as the AMA and government agencies, such as the DEA office of diversion control (Legal Muscle, a book by attorney Rick Collins describes the events preceding the 1990 anabolic steroid act). Later, the 2004 anabolic steroid control act included most of the "precursor" supplements and other related drugs, with the exception of DHEA.
This approach is not dissimilar from the Prohibition movement of the 1920's that lead to the 18th amendment, repealed by the 21st amendment five years later. The argument that alcohol and tobacco, among other routinely available products cause more harm and have a higher addiction risk is a valid point. (Note, prohibition has been called the greatest failed social experiment in American history) This has created a black market for anabolic steroids and has driven the user to street dealers, exposing them to potentially adulterated drugs and restricting them from the screening, direction, supervision and monitoring that a physician might provide. It is the wrong solution.
The primary problem with anabolic steroids at present is the distribution model. It is a black market drug.
But what about the doctors that are prescribing it? They are not legitimately doing so, particularly for young adults with no signs of testosterone deficiency. Anabolic steroids and growth hormone have restrictions preventing a physician from legitimately presecribing or dispensing the drugs for performance or physique enhancement. Several stings have taken place and many doctors have lost their licenses or are facing review. Sadly, it is the "odd" doctors that are doing the prescribing because the practice is not validated by state or federal laws and violates medical ethics (though no concensus exist on this).
There are several people that agree that the use should be allow and direct as part of a patient-physician relationship. Also, there are those who feel that performance enhancing drugs should be allowed and are as ethical as other aids in use (Lance Armstrong had millions of dollars of support designing his bikes, uniforms, positioning his stance in the bike, etc; the US Olympic team won several medals during the 1988 Olympics wearing specially designed and fabricated "shark suits" but it was Ben Johnson who was cheating - note, six of the seven people Johnson beat later tested positive for banned substances, not during the 1988 Olympics).
I am going to post this and then continue so it doesn't exceed post length.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Somehow I doubt that extreme steroids can be administered by a physician responsibly and still attain the necessary effects needed by some athletes.
TwinTurbo
Footballguy
Yes this might be true if the athlete was trying to win the Mr. Olympia contest or the World's Strongest Man. But I think for the majority of individuals, even most Pro Athletes, their goals could be realized while also mitigating any serious side effects and without using the more "heavy-duty" steroids such as Anadrol or Dianabol. And you never see athletes test positive for drugs like that. They will test postive for Nandrolone (Shawn Merriman) or other steroids that are mild enough to be tolerated by women. These drugs give good results without bad side effects. Again, I am not advocating steroid use for college or pro athletes. I believe it would be unethical. I am just arguing that the potential negative health aspects are overblown. The primary damage will be to their reputation, not their health if the drugs are not abused.
Check out the Wikipedia article here which summarizes some of the common myths: Anabolic Steroid misconceptions
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As to side effects and risks -
Anabolic steroids have been associated with severe side effects and premature death in healthy young men. I am an advocate of their use in healthy adult men under the supervision of a qualified physician, if that ever is to be allowed. Don't confuse that with the anti-aging movement which is a similar but different population.
Gynecomastia is the growth of breast tissue in males. It occurs in a great number of adolescents during the hormonal spikes of puberty and was fairly common until the introduction of a class of drugs called aromatase inhibitors developed to combat breast cancer. It is caused by the conversion of androgens (testosterone like drugs) into estrogens (female sex hormones). When androgen levels get very high, so do estrogen levels in most cases (some anabolic steroids do not aromatize or convert to estrogen). Again, with the advent of aromatase inhibitors, this is fairly uncommon in educated users.
The case of Taylor Hooten is a sad example of what can happen with any adolescent. I personally do not feel that his suicide was caused by anabolic steroids (he was being treated for depression prior to his use I believe) but the rapid withdrawal from the drugs at his pediatrician's advice likely precipitated rapid swings in his blood and brain levels of steroids (the body does not recover normal function for weeks to months in such cases) and on top of his personal issues and the unique physiology of the adolescent brain, suicidiality may have been precipitated. Regardless, a tragic loss and clear example why adolescents should not use psychoactive drugs of any sort without professional supervision. Note - accutane and several antidepressants have a higher suicidality risk and have been associated with some of the school shooting perpetrators.
Most adolescent anabolic steroid use is a manifestation of high-risk behavior. Very few adolescents "cycle" anabolic steroids, rather they take them haphazardly to feel aggressive, socially or sexually confident and to meet peer demands. The rate of adolescent anabolic steroid use has dropped in the last few years and has never been very high. One of the premier researchers has stated he believes the numbers are falsely elevated due to poor understanding by the students and poor wording in the surveys.
There are cases (deaths) that have a high index of suspicion for being caused by anabolic steroids but they are relatively few, at least relative to an acute event. However, in looking at the professional bodybuilders, it is clear that this population is experiencing the premature loss of many prominent names. In some cases it is heart related, which may be a reflection of anabolic steroid use but could also be due to other drugs used (insulin, growth hormone, diuretics, stimulants, etc). A search of pubmed will show several heart attacks, blood clots and even hepatic adenomas (benign tumors previously only found in kidney dialysis patients on oral steroids). Most liver problems arise from oral versions of the drugs.
Unfortunately, many bodybuilders are also using recreational drugs. Heroin overdoses and other problems are not rare, sadly. I believe this relates back to the prohibitionist approach.
Prior to his 1980 comeback, Arnold did not use excessive amounts of anabolic steroids. It was different back then, and the need was not as great as the size and physique of the bodybuilders in the 60s and 70s was nothing like todays competitors. Now, it is not uncommon for the bodybuilders to be on 20 different drugs at the pro level. Insulin, growth hormone and IGF-1 have caused more problems than steroids and are likely the cause for some of the increase in early death.
Why use high doses of anabolic steroids, or any at all? Muscle grows in a linear dose-response relationship to testosterone dose, beyond the physiologic range. Meaning, if you want bigger muscles, you take more. Want the biggest muscles? Take the most. Side effects limit the dose but again, the advent of certain drugs (aromatase inhibitors, reductase inhibitors, gonadotropins, etc) allow for higher dosing. The pressure on professional athletes is immense and the reward (financial and social) makes it worth the risk for nearly all athletes. Only the potential loss of endorsements or being banned will deter these athletes.
There are some designer anabolic steroids, but not that many. After the BALCO trials, WADA has learned some of the tricks, such as dusting off old research. Anabolic steroids used to hold great promise, but the expiration of the patents and introduction of newer, more specific drugs has caused all pharmaceutical companies to abandon research and there is no pressure from industry interest groups to allow their use. Watch though, in about three to four years, SARMs (selective androgen receptor modulators) will come out and they will be announced as the safe anabolic steroid alternative for elderly and infirmed (AIDS, burn patients, etc). Unlikely that anyone will care about the 35 year old dad who wants to get back in shape.
I am not sure where this post is supposed to lead, I guess I will respond to questions or watch for more posting that need to be responded to (bad english but I am ending the sentence there).
Frankly, I believe professional athletes should be able to use the resources of a physician to promote their ability, but in a safe and regulated manner. Otherwise, we will see athletes going to Mexico or Europe for myostatin injections and vector treatments to introduce gene therapy (already happening in some cases).
I do not know if it is necessary to test professional athletes and frankly, the only clear winner is WADA, which receives millions in funding.
If the goal is to remove drugs, perhaps the first step would be to remove the incentive. If athletes could only make what a blue collar laborer made, or no more than the median income of college graduates, then there would be fewer willing to take the risk.
The approach taken with Bonds by the media was actually a good example. Once they figured out that the more they made of him and his "alleged" use of performance enhancing drugs, the larger he became; when they stopped giving him headlines, the crowds stopped following him, I suspect his autograph was worth less and the glamour of the home run title will be dimmed because the media has taken him from the public eye.
Also, I think once the owners, coaches and managers get fined or suspended too, they will be a little more diligent about watching the players. It is pretty clear when someone is using.
Last rant, until Congress and the state senates are drug tested, I see no need to ever test an athlete. The culture of alcoholism and drug use is well engrained in Washington D.C. and frankly, I am more concerned about the legislators being drunk or messed up when voting on bills they haven't read, the few times they are present during votes. (watch CSPAN if you need to see how often the chambers are empty, also you can see that most vote along party lines, makes one wonder if the Republican and Democratic Party leaders have more influence on politicians than there constituents, but that line will probably earn me a tin foil hat smilie from someone).
Feel free to ask questions.
Anabolic steroids have been associated with severe side effects and premature death in healthy young men. I am an advocate of their use in healthy adult men under the supervision of a qualified physician, if that ever is to be allowed. Don't confuse that with the anti-aging movement which is a similar but different population.
Gynecomastia is the growth of breast tissue in males. It occurs in a great number of adolescents during the hormonal spikes of puberty and was fairly common until the introduction of a class of drugs called aromatase inhibitors developed to combat breast cancer. It is caused by the conversion of androgens (testosterone like drugs) into estrogens (female sex hormones). When androgen levels get very high, so do estrogen levels in most cases (some anabolic steroids do not aromatize or convert to estrogen). Again, with the advent of aromatase inhibitors, this is fairly uncommon in educated users.
The case of Taylor Hooten is a sad example of what can happen with any adolescent. I personally do not feel that his suicide was caused by anabolic steroids (he was being treated for depression prior to his use I believe) but the rapid withdrawal from the drugs at his pediatrician's advice likely precipitated rapid swings in his blood and brain levels of steroids (the body does not recover normal function for weeks to months in such cases) and on top of his personal issues and the unique physiology of the adolescent brain, suicidiality may have been precipitated. Regardless, a tragic loss and clear example why adolescents should not use psychoactive drugs of any sort without professional supervision. Note - accutane and several antidepressants have a higher suicidality risk and have been associated with some of the school shooting perpetrators.
Most adolescent anabolic steroid use is a manifestation of high-risk behavior. Very few adolescents "cycle" anabolic steroids, rather they take them haphazardly to feel aggressive, socially or sexually confident and to meet peer demands. The rate of adolescent anabolic steroid use has dropped in the last few years and has never been very high. One of the premier researchers has stated he believes the numbers are falsely elevated due to poor understanding by the students and poor wording in the surveys.
There are cases (deaths) that have a high index of suspicion for being caused by anabolic steroids but they are relatively few, at least relative to an acute event. However, in looking at the professional bodybuilders, it is clear that this population is experiencing the premature loss of many prominent names. In some cases it is heart related, which may be a reflection of anabolic steroid use but could also be due to other drugs used (insulin, growth hormone, diuretics, stimulants, etc). A search of pubmed will show several heart attacks, blood clots and even hepatic adenomas (benign tumors previously only found in kidney dialysis patients on oral steroids). Most liver problems arise from oral versions of the drugs.
Unfortunately, many bodybuilders are also using recreational drugs. Heroin overdoses and other problems are not rare, sadly. I believe this relates back to the prohibitionist approach.
Prior to his 1980 comeback, Arnold did not use excessive amounts of anabolic steroids. It was different back then, and the need was not as great as the size and physique of the bodybuilders in the 60s and 70s was nothing like todays competitors. Now, it is not uncommon for the bodybuilders to be on 20 different drugs at the pro level. Insulin, growth hormone and IGF-1 have caused more problems than steroids and are likely the cause for some of the increase in early death.
Why use high doses of anabolic steroids, or any at all? Muscle grows in a linear dose-response relationship to testosterone dose, beyond the physiologic range. Meaning, if you want bigger muscles, you take more. Want the biggest muscles? Take the most. Side effects limit the dose but again, the advent of certain drugs (aromatase inhibitors, reductase inhibitors, gonadotropins, etc) allow for higher dosing. The pressure on professional athletes is immense and the reward (financial and social) makes it worth the risk for nearly all athletes. Only the potential loss of endorsements or being banned will deter these athletes.
There are some designer anabolic steroids, but not that many. After the BALCO trials, WADA has learned some of the tricks, such as dusting off old research. Anabolic steroids used to hold great promise, but the expiration of the patents and introduction of newer, more specific drugs has caused all pharmaceutical companies to abandon research and there is no pressure from industry interest groups to allow their use. Watch though, in about three to four years, SARMs (selective androgen receptor modulators) will come out and they will be announced as the safe anabolic steroid alternative for elderly and infirmed (AIDS, burn patients, etc). Unlikely that anyone will care about the 35 year old dad who wants to get back in shape.
I am not sure where this post is supposed to lead, I guess I will respond to questions or watch for more posting that need to be responded to (bad english but I am ending the sentence there).
Frankly, I believe professional athletes should be able to use the resources of a physician to promote their ability, but in a safe and regulated manner. Otherwise, we will see athletes going to Mexico or Europe for myostatin injections and vector treatments to introduce gene therapy (already happening in some cases).
I do not know if it is necessary to test professional athletes and frankly, the only clear winner is WADA, which receives millions in funding.
If the goal is to remove drugs, perhaps the first step would be to remove the incentive. If athletes could only make what a blue collar laborer made, or no more than the median income of college graduates, then there would be fewer willing to take the risk.
The approach taken with Bonds by the media was actually a good example. Once they figured out that the more they made of him and his "alleged" use of performance enhancing drugs, the larger he became; when they stopped giving him headlines, the crowds stopped following him, I suspect his autograph was worth less and the glamour of the home run title will be dimmed because the media has taken him from the public eye.
Also, I think once the owners, coaches and managers get fined or suspended too, they will be a little more diligent about watching the players. It is pretty clear when someone is using.
Last rant, until Congress and the state senates are drug tested, I see no need to ever test an athlete. The culture of alcoholism and drug use is well engrained in Washington D.C. and frankly, I am more concerned about the legislators being drunk or messed up when voting on bills they haven't read, the few times they are present during votes. (watch CSPAN if you need to see how often the chambers are empty, also you can see that most vote along party lines, makes one wonder if the Republican and Democratic Party leaders have more influence on politicians than there constituents, but that line will probably earn me a tin foil hat smilie from someone).
Feel free to ask questions.
In response to Johnny U, there is a number of papers put out by Shalender Bhasin, et al of UCLA (I think he has since moved to another institution) showing 600 mg/week to be very effective. About 4X normal replacement dose. No reported side effects in the studies lasting six months.
TwinTurbo
Footballguy
Several good posts by RedZone who appears to be very informed on the topic.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Thanks for the reference. Note the key word in there, "illegal" to describe the prescription given to him. Of course, I would hope all doctors are keenly sensitive to liability anytime they prescribe medication that isn't indicated for a person's health and well-being. I see this as no different with steroids than with any other medication. And, of course a doctor shouldn't be able to prescribe what he wants when he wants, if it's contraindicated to the individual's health and well-being. That seems rather obvious, don't you think?I don't think you've advanced your point, whatsoever.
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radballs
Footballguy
Reading as I go down, but this thread could have ended right here. My sentiments exactly. They're big boys. Let 'em play.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
That's a simple approach to take, and I understand that has much appeal. Many people wish baseball were more like pro wrestling, I get that. It's just boring to them, and they want to see home runs all the time. Understood. Too bad, imo.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Either way you would be left as a fool if if you didnt research it for yourself.Furthermore... from your very own NIH... From the case reports, the incidence of lifethreatening effects appears to be low. Just low? With absolutely no science or research to provide a single one in the NIH documentaion... and its "low"? Hey, but they did drudge up a singular and absurd mice test, thats wasnt conclusive. Flat-earthers unite!
radballs
Footballguy
I wasn't referring to and never mentioned baseball nor wrestling.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
BigRed
Footballguy
..which is irrelevant because you don't need to. However, I do believe that you CAN test ALL players on a regular enough basis to catch at least most of those who are using even the latest trendy roids, drugs, whatever.The major sport leagues simply need to get serious about it. But they have made it exceedingly clear they aren't, because they haven't, because they worship the almighty dollar.What a pretty picture pro sports paint.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Getting serious doesnt change a thing. They do test them on a regular basis. Randomized. And what you get is steroids being an advantage from high school to college to pro sports. What you have suggested is keeping the status quo. I think we can do better. Not only from a perspective of sports, but from the position of the rights and decisions of American adults.BigRed said:..which is irrelevant because you don't need to. However, I do believe that you CAN test ALL players on a regular enough basis to catch at least most of those who are using even the latest trendy roids, drugs, whatever.The major sport leagues simply need to get serious about it. But they have made it exceedingly clear they aren't, because they haven't, because they worship the almighty dollar.What a pretty picture pro sports paint.
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