Steve Smith - when all is said and done, HoF? (1 Viewer)

[TZMarkie]

I believe Steve Smith should definitely be in the Hall of Fame. In many ways he is part of what the Hall is about.

But I see things differently though.

I am of the opinion that Jamaal Charles is an easy inclusion, but when I ask others locally they don't agree.

I'm guessing they don't bother looking at Jamaal's stats that much.

Jamaal's injury this year (very sadly) might be the final thing that keeps Jamaal from the Hall of Fame though.

I think in a few people's eyes he needed one more big season or two.

I personally hope he comes back next season and has a HELL of a year, which should almost certainly get him in.

TZM

 

[cstu]

Don't see how you can put Steve Smith in before Rod Smith.

 

[spider321]

Good.

Never great.

Here is a complete list of every player in history who averaged more receiving yards per team pass attempt than Steve Smith's 4.04 in 2008:

(I hear his 2005 season was decent, too.)

Here is a list of every player who caught a TD while walking backwards, tapping his head, rubbing his belly, and wearing khakis at the same time.

Are there any other ridiculously obscure "records" that he holds? Maybe he ate a whole lot of fiery wings once?

 

[moondog]

Still no and will always be no.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Ignoring 2001 (when he barely played) and 2004 (when he missed almost all of the season), having only 76 touchdowns in nearly 12 1/2 seasons to date will not help his cause. He's only had one double digit TD season, 8 is his 2nd best total, and then he has 7 or less in every other season. We can talk all day about what QBs he has had and how he was on run-driven teams, but results are ultimately what matter, and I'll be surprised if voters ever let him in, considering he has never been a big scorer (and most would agree that, while TDs can fluctuate from year to year, great WRs generally catch a lot of touchdowns).

Andre Johnson is similar in that regard, although Johnson will get even less consideration because the perception will be that he put up a lot of stats on a lot of bad teams.

 

[kOOk]

So it's all about the TDs! He's out!!

 

[cstu]

So it's all about the TDs! He's out!!

Rod Smith had just as impressive of career, won 2 Super Bowls, didn't score a lot of TD's (~7 a year during his prime), and isn't in the HOF.

 

[Hooper31]

Good.

Never great.

To say he was never great is just plain ignorant. I use the word ignorant on purpose. To say "never great" it must mean you just aren't aware of what Smith did in 2005. In 2005 Smith was the most dominate and explosive WR in the NFL. He led in catches, yards, and TDs. He topped that off with a monster playoff game against Chicago before getting special treatment in the NFC title game against Seattle. The Seahawks lined up a LB every snap in front of Smith just to hit him and cover the smoke route. The put the CB 10 yards behind him. Who gets that kind of treatment?

Thankfully, the NFL HOF voters don't care about statistics as much as the average fan. They know what it takes to lead other men in this league. The NFL is a team game unlike any other sport. Getting men to play hard and play for each other is a rare thing. Steve Smith as a player has been all heart his whole career. The voters know this, and I believe one day that will be acknowledged.

 

[Tau837]

Still no and will always be no.

 

[mjm3773]

WRT Rod Smith, sure they had comparable careers, if you want to ignore the extra 100 receptions, 2400 yards and 8 TDs (and counting) Smiff had over Rod.

And if you want to look at just peak two seasons, Smiff has a few more yards and one less TD despite 70 less (20%) targets than Rod.

And "RINGZ" are a team accomplishment, especially in the ultimate team sport. But Smiff has more receptions, yards and TDs than Rod despite playing 2 fewer playoff games.

 

[Wadsworth]

Sure, someone needs to keep those other HoFers in line. The SSSr bust will lay the smack down if any of the others get out of line.

 

[cstu]

WRT Rod Smith, sure they had comparable careers, if you want to ignore the extra 100 receptions, 2400 yards and 8 TDs (and counting) Smiff had over Rod.

And if you want to look at just peak two seasons, Smiff has a few more yards and one less TD despite 70 less (20%) targets than Rod.

And "RINGZ" are a team accomplishment, especially in the ultimate team sport. But Smiff has more receptions, yards and TDs than Rod despite playing 2 fewer playoff games.

Rod had a total of 213 receptions on 345 targets (61.7%), 2943 yards, and 20 TD's in his two best consecutive seasons.

Steve had a total of 186 receptions on 289 targets (64.3%), 2729 yards, and 20 TD's in two best consecutive seasons.

Also, Rod was a huge part of the second Super Bowl win - his 80 yard TD changed the game and put the Broncos up by 14. Until that point with 5 minutes left to go in the first half, Jamal Anderson had 13 carries - he only had 5 the rest of the game as the Falcons played catch up.

 

[Chaka]

Good.

Never great.

To say he was never great is just plain ignorant. I use the word ignorant on purpose. To say "never great" it must mean you just aren't aware of what Smith did in 2005. In 2005 Smith was the most dominate and explosive WR in the NFL. He led in catches, yards, and TDs. He topped that off with a monster playoff game against Chicago before getting special treatment in the NFC title game against Seattle. The Seahawks lined up a LB every snap in front of Smith just to hit him and cover the smoke route. The put the CB 10 yards behind him. Who gets that kind of treatment?

Thankfully, the NFL HOF voters don't care about statistics as much as the average fan. They know what it takes to lead other men in this league. The NFL is a team game unlike any other sport. Getting men to play hard and play for each other is a rare thing. Steve Smith as a player has been all heart his whole career. The voters know this, and I believe one day that will be acknowledged.

Smith still managed to hang a 60 yard punt return on Seattle during that game.

 

[Chaka]

It's hard to say. But I have to note that Smith was Carolina's primary punt and kick kick returner for most of his first three seasons and missed his fourth season with an injury. He has six career return TDs a couple rushing TDs and has consistently been an elite performer in the playoffs. He's got a triple crown and has put up some truly dazzling performances. He really doesn't strike me as a stat compiler either. Throw in what he did last season in a new offense and is doing this season in another new offense and the fact that he is an all time HoFer for Toughness across any position and...I wouldn't argue if he did make it and I probably wouldn't complain if he didn't.

 

[mjm3773]

WRT Rod Smith, sure they had comparable careers, if you want to ignore the extra 100 receptions, 2400 yards and 8 TDs (and counting) Smiff had over Rod.

And if you want to look at just peak two seasons, Smiff has a few more yards and one less TD despite 70 less (20%) targets than Rod.

And "RINGZ" are a team accomplishment, especially in the ultimate team sport. But Smiff has more receptions, yards and TDs than Rod despite playing 2 fewer playoff games.

Rod had a total of 213 receptions on 345 targets (61.7%), 2943 yards, and 20 TD's in his two best consecutive seasons.

Steve had a total of 186 receptions on 289 targets (64.3%), 2729 yards, and 20 TD's in two best consecutive seasons.

Also, Rod was a huge part of the second Super Bowl win - his 80 yard TD changed the game and put the Broncos up by 14. Until that point with 5 minutes left to go in the first half, Jamal Anderson had 13 carries - he only had 5 the rest of the game as the Falcons played catch up.

So basically if Smiff had the same amount of targets as Rod, he would've had 10 more receptions, 350 more yds and 4 more TDs.

You're penalizing Smiff because his teams threw less than almost every other NFL team. Not to mention this comparison benefits Rod since his best two seasons were consecutive, while Smiff's were 3 years apart.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Don't see how you can put Steve Smith in before Rod Smith.

This Broncos fan thinks Steve Smith was miles better than Rod. (This Broncos fan thinks Jimmy was better than Rod, too.) Rod Smith is one of my favorite players, and I could tell a ton of great stories about him. His only 200-yard game came in a losing effort and he refused to talk to reports afterwards because he knew they'd only want to talk about his stats and he didn't give a damn because he lost. He often said he was sad sites didn't track WR Wins like they did with QB Wins. Tremendous team player. Anti-diva. Really, genuinely didn't care about anything except winning.

With that said, I wouldn't put him in my personal hall of fame. He'd be close, but not quite. (Steve Smith would make it with ease.)

 

[Adam Harstad]

Here is a list of every player who caught a TD while walking backwards, tapping his head, rubbing his belly, and wearing khakis at the same time.

Are there any other ridiculously obscure "records" that he holds? Maybe he ate a whole lot of fiery wings once?

It's an obscure record, but it's still a relevant one.

Players cannot gain receiving yards unless their team is throwing the ball. No one in history has ever gained more receiving yards every time his team threw the ball than Steve Smith did in 2008. That's an amazing, amazing accomplishment. You said he was never great. This directly contradicts that idea. You have to be pretty freaking great to average more than 4 receiving yards every single time your team drops back to pass. And with Jake Delhomme under center, to boot! That's *amazing*.

If you want a less obscure record, though, here's a complete list of every modern WR to win the triple crown (leading the league in receptions, yards, and touchdowns in the same year): Sterling Sharpe, Jerry Rice, Steve Smith. I suppose the other two were "never great", either, though.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Answer: Steve Smith and Larry Fitzgerald

Question: who are the only receivers to appear in five or more playoff games and average at least one touchdown per game?

 

[kOOk]

So it's all about the TDs! He's out!!

Rod Smith had just as impressive of career, won 2 Super Bowls, didn't score a lot of TD's (~7 a year during his prime), and isn't in the HOF.

It's nice to have John Elway and Terrell Davis back there.

 

[spider321]

Ok. You guys have convinced me, Smurf was great for exactly one season.

I still think the yards per pass attempt stat is a little ridiculous, but whatever.

Steve Smith is not good enough to deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

Please, please, please stop watering down the Hall. Every time you put in a Curtis Martin or a Steve Smith it seems to diminish the exclusiveness of the Hall.

Steve Smith was very good. It's not an insult to state that he is not an all-time great WR.

It will never happen, but I almost wish that there could be no more than 100 guys in the Hall of Fame. If you want to vote a guy in, you have to vote a guy out.

That would keep out all of these participation trophy inductees.

 

[spider321]

If you want a less obscure record, though, here's a complete list of every modern WR to win the triple crown (leading the league in receptions, yards, and touchdowns in the same year): Sterling Sharpe, Jerry Rice, Steve Smith. I suppose the other two were "never great", either, though.

Jerry Rice and Sterling Sharpe were great for pretty much their entire careers, not just that one season. I hope you already knew that.

Good Lord! I actually just looked at Smurf's stats over his career!!!

He had double-digit TD's once in his entire career?!?!

...and you guys want to put him in the Hall of Fame????

Really?!

ROTFLMAO

 

[spider321]

In 15 seasons, Smurf has had 7 or FEWER TD's 13 times!!!

WOW!

He's not even as good as I thought he was.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Ok. You guys have convinced me, Smurf was great for exactly one season.

I still think the yards per pass attempt stat is a little ridiculous, but whatever.

The yards per pass attempt stat was 2008. The triple crown was 2005. That's two seasons. In the two years between, Delhomme got hurt a lot and Smith had to play with Chris Weinke, Vinny Testeverde, David Carr, and Matt Moore. I'm willing to bet that Steve Smith was actually as good in 2006 and 2007 as he was in 2005 and 2008, and the reason his numbers didn't show it are because he was playing with Chris Weinke, Vinny Testeverde, David Carr, and Matt Moore. (As opposed to his usual quarterback, who was the dominant force otherwise known as Jake Delhomme.)

Steve Smith also is dominating at age 35+ to a degree that we've never seen from any receiver except for Rice. He has more 100 yard games after his 35th birthday than anyone except for Jerry Rice... and he's only played 23 games since his 35th birthday! Plus Steve Smith joins Jerry Rice and Larry Fitzgerald as the three most dominant postseason receivers in history.

People talking like Steve Smith was a one-year wonder really just shows who was watching Steve Smith play during his career. Steve Smith is one of the rare players who serious stat guys and film guys all universally go bonkers over, and he's probably going to be kept out of the Hall of Fame by box score scouts and guys who seemingly don't realize he spent his entire prime with Delhomme at best and Chris Weinke at worst.

Steve Smith was also a first-team AP All Pro returner, a man with seven career return touchdowns, and one of just five men in history to top 1900 all-purpose yards in four consecutive seasons, (Brian Mitchell, Marshall Faulk, Darren Sproles, Dante Hall).

Guy should be a no-brainer Hall of Famer.

 

[spider321]

Go ahead and let everyone in, Adam.

I have no doubt that as a stat guy, you can make up some sort of walking backwards and chewing gum "record" for pretty much every guy who has ever played.

Hall of Pretty Good just doesn't have the same ring to it.

 

[Chaka]

Sterling Sharpe 4 seasons without Brett Favre/Holmgren - 70 receptions, 1,070 yards, 15.2 Y/R, 5.8 TDs, 4.4 Rec/Game, 67 Y/G

Sterling Sharpe 3 seasons with Brett Favre/Holmgren - 105 receptions, 1,285 yards, 12 Y/R, 14 TDs, 7 Rec/Game, 80 Y/G

Sharpe has 9 career punt returns and 1 career kickoff return.

You can't judge these guys in a vacuum and TDs aren't the only stat spider, Adam is making a much more defensible case.

 

[spider321]

if a guy has to be compared to one of the least qualified guys in the Hall, then he should not get in.

Adam makes a more "defensible" case because he is a numbers/stat guy. Most people don't realize that stats are a snake oil that can be used to "prove" almost any ridiculous idea.

I guarantee that if the local numbers guy, Adam, wanted to list stats that "prove" Smith does not belong in the Hall, he would not have to reach as far as "yards per team pass attempt in a single season", to find one.

Smith was good, but he is not even close to being one of the greatest WR's of all-time.

I cannot stop the voters from "watering down" the Hall of Fame, but it would be a shame if Steve Smith ever gets in.

I suppose the participation trophy generation wants their favorite players to get one, too.

 

[kOOk]

He doesn't have enough TDs!!!!1@!

 

[spider321]

He doesn't have enough TDs!!!!1@!

Yep. TD's aren't important.

Done with this thread.

You guys want everyone in the Hall? Go ahead.

Just do us a favor and change the name to The Hall of Good.

 

[kOOk]

He doesn't have enough TDs!!!!1@!

Yep. TD's aren't important.

Done with this thread.

You guys want everyone in the Hall? Go ahead.

Just do us a favor and change the name to The Hall of Good.

Is Jake Delhomme in the Hall of Good?

 

[Hooper31]

You guys want everyone in the Hall? Go ahead.

When you have to resort to the same strawman over and over, you're done. You're arguing with no one to somehow make yourself feel better. Why bother?

 

[renesauz]

He doesn't have enough TDs!!!!1@!

Yep. TD's aren't important.

Done with this thread.

You guys want everyone in the Hall? Go ahead.

Just do us a favor and change the name to The Hall of Good.

Your tone and certainty your attitude bely the basic point of the thread. He's not a sure fire first ballot type, or there would be no debate. But neither is he a nowhere close he is "just good" player either.

He's on the bubble, and worth talking about. Before this season, I would have leaned towards no, but putting up yet another "good" season at his age has tilted him, IMHO, towards the leaning yes camp.

Trying to say the HOF should never go over 100 players is just plain silly. Pro football has been around for 100 years. Limiting it to just 3 or 4 players let in per year is pretty darn limiting as it is.

 

[chauncey]

Spider sounds like an Archer alias.

 

[The Future Champs]

He's earned it. And he'll get in earlier than most people expect.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Yeah, suggesting Steve Smith was only good or pretty good is just wrong. The guy has been great for most of his career. I just think he'll have a tough getting in because a) voters are stingy about letting WRs in, b) his lack of scores does not help his cause, and c) he played in the same era as Moss, Owens, Harrison, Megatron and Fitzgerald, all of whom will be considered more deserving by voters, IMO. And I agree that all of those guys are more deserving than Steve, and looking at WRs from the last 15 years or so, I would say Isaac Bruce is another guy more deserving than Steve.

As for Rod Smith, I was as big a fan of him as anybody, but no way is he as or more deserving than Steve Smith.

 

[Chaka]

if a guy has to be compared to one of the least qualified guys in the Hall, then he should not get in.

Adam makes a more "defensible" case because he is a numbers/stat guy. Most people don't realize that stats are a snake oil that can be used to "prove" almost any ridiculous idea.

I guarantee that if the local numbers guy, Adam, wanted to list stats that "prove" Smith does not belong in the Hall, he would not have to reach as far as "yards per team pass attempt in a single season", to find one.

Smith was good, but he is not even close to being one of the greatest WR's of all-time.

I cannot stop the voters from "watering down" the Hall of Fame, but it would be a shame if Steve Smith ever gets in.

I suppose the participation trophy generation wants their favorite players to get one, too.

I sincerely doubt you have a better understanding of the pitfalls involved with using statistics than Adam (and many others in here).

The one intriguing statistic of Adam's that you are focusing on, ignoring the others that put Smith among the greatest of all time, is a pretty darn amazing stat. In and of itself it does not make a case for him to be in the HoF but it is certainly a piece that should not be ignored either. And I think the problem you have with that particular statistic lies in your understanding of it.

Steve Smith isn't a Participation Trophy type player (and I doubt anyone in here is a fan of Participation Trophies so perhaps you can drop that little canard Rocko) he has been one of the best WRs of his generation and he continues to perform at a very high level. I don't think anyone in here is suggesting that he should be a lock for the HoF but he has certainly performed at a high enough level for a long enough period of time to warrant legitimate consideration. He certainly deserves more than a casual dismissal based upon noting more than limited observation, unwilling analysis and misguided bravado.

 

[Faust]

Steve Smith Sr. Completes his Hall Résumé, Melvin Gordon Falls Apart, and If the NFL Made an NBA Team

Excerpt:

I think last week’s performance in San Francisco, 137 yards with four broken bones in his back, was a fitting closing argument in Steve Smith Sr.’s case for Canton. Over his career, Smith has caught a lot of passes for a lot of yards; he moved into the starting lineup for the Panthers in 2002, and his 13,618 receiving yards are third-most in the NFL during that span. And he has been very good for a long time; Smith is on pace for his ninth 1,000-yard season; his first came in 2003, when his current QB, Joe Flacco, was a being redshirted as a true freshman at Pitt and Carolina’s Week 1 starter was Rodney Peete.

Smith has 59 catches for 1,001 yards and nine touchdowns in 11 postseason games. That 91.0 yards per game is best all time among receivers to play in five different postseasons.

And he did it all playing the prime of his career with second-tier passers: mostly Jake Delhomme, and later a young Cam Newton. Imagine if he ever had the chance to play alongside Brady or Manning.

Aside from Randy Moss (who, of course, was a cyborg assassin sent back from the year 2029 to embarrass NFL defensive backs), I’m not sure any receiver in the post-Jerry Rice era has had a more impressive career than Smith.

 

[Tau837]

Steve Smith Sr. Completes his Hall Résumé, Melvin Gordon Falls Apart, and If the NFL Made an NBA Team

Excerpt:

Over his career, Smith has caught a lot of passes for a lot of yards; he moved into the starting lineup for the Panthers in 2002, and his 13,618 receiving yards are third-most in the NFL during that span.

While this sounds impressive, using such a long window for a player who is playing the final year of a long career will automatically favor that player in the comparison, since all of his peers today started their careers later.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Go ahead and let everyone in, Adam.

I have no doubt that as a stat guy, you can make up some sort of walking backwards and chewing gum "record" for pretty much every guy who has ever played.

Hall of Pretty Good just doesn't have the same ring to it.

I'm not a stat guy, though.

Chase Stuart? He's a stat guy. Comparing yards per target for a receiver to yards per target for his teammates and then multiplying the difference by total targets to find out which receiver provided the greatest impact relative to the rest of his team? Yeah, that's a Chase Stuart jam. (Smith had the 6th, 10th, and 17th best seasons since 1999 in 2008, 2005, and 2011, belying any attempt to paint him as a one-year wonder.)

Putting the run-heaviness of Steve Smith's offenses by calculating weighted team pass attempts per game for every receiver? Yup, that's all Chase. (He's the guy who found that only Alworth and Hutson averaged more yards per game for a team that attempted fewer passes per game.)

The yards per team pass attempt stat? A Chase Stuart original. Here's the career rankings. And here's receivers by percentage of team receiving yards.

Chase didn't do all those stats to prove Steve Smith was great. He calculated all those stats because he thought it would be interesting to calculate those stats. And Steve Smith just wound up ranking high because Steve Smith was great. Which is why Steve Smith is still more dominant at age 35 and 36 than nearly any other WR in history.

That's Chase, though. Numbers guy to the bone. Not me.

I'm not a film guy, either, though I do make a point of watching what I can. I'm certainly no Matt Waldman or Chris Wesseling.

So what am I? Wesseling called me an NFL researcher, which I guess strictly speaking is true. I like to think of myself more as a storyteller. My interest in numbers extends only insofar as they are an efficient medium for telling a story. Steve Smith's yards per team pass attempt record tells us volumes. It tells us Smith was good, yes, but that his teammates were not. And it tells us his team did not throw many attempts. All of those stats help sketch out Steve Smith the receiver.

And the film helps tell that story, too. The film of the obscene lengths Seattle went to to shut him down in a playoff game where the only six other players to touch the football would average just 200 more yards in their remaining careers. The film from the week before of Smith destroying a Bears defense so good that it would soon drag Rex Grossman to the Super Bowl, to the tune of 240 yards from scrimmage. Smith shrugging off the entire Texans defense.

And yeah, part of the story on Steve Smith is the guy who cold-cocked two of his own teammates. The guy who trash talked anyone and everyone. The little 5'9" guy with a permanent chip on his shoulder from being told his entire career that he was too small.

And yes, the story is that Steve Smith was the lone bright spot on a hopeless franchise, keeping an otherwise terrible offense afloat. And yes, the story is that Steve Smith was a great receiver; not a good one, but a great one, one of the very best of his generation, one of the very best of all time.

And yes, the story is that Steve Smith belongs in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Steve Smith Sr. Completes his Hall Résumé, Melvin Gordon Falls Apart, and If the NFL Made an NBA Team

Excerpt:

Over his career, Smith has caught a lot of passes for a lot of yards; he moved into the starting lineup for the Panthers in 2002, and his 13,618 receiving yards are third-most in the NFL during that span.

While this sounds impressive, using such a long window for a player who is playing the final year of a long career will automatically favor that player in the comparison, since all of his peers today started their careers later.

Agreed. And the squirrely framing is wholly unnecessary. Just say that Steve Smith ranks 12th in career receiving yards, and with another 232 he'll rank 9th, and that he's got an outside shot at catching Reggie Wayne or Marvin Harrison for 8th or 7th. And that he did this despite missing an entire season in the prime of his career and playing on a run-first team with Jake Delhomme at quarterback instead of, say, spending all his time kicking it with Peyton Manning.

 

[Hoss Style]

Just typed out a long post and lost it. Basically he's looking at finishing 12 on the career recpt list and 8th/9th on the yardage list. Has an outside shot for the best season ever by a WR 35 or older to start the year.

So is he just compiling this year or making a statement that he's one of the best ever?

Boldin has more receptions and is pretty close to Smith in career yardage. Boldin has actually averaged more yds/gm than Smith has. Are people thinking Boldin gets in?

I don't see Smith as a HOF player, but this is pretty silly. Smith had a much higher peak than Boldin and has more yards and TDs. Receptions are less important. And you know this.

 

[spider321]

Go ahead and let everyone in, Adam.

I have no doubt that as a stat guy, you can make up some sort of walking backwards and chewing gum "record" for pretty much every guy who has ever played.

Hall of Pretty Good just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Smith had the 6th, 10th, and 17th best seasons since 1999 in 2008, 2005, and 2011...

We have very different opinions of what should merit induction to the Hall of Fame.

No doubt there are other good players there. I just wish it was limited to great players.

Oh well.

 

[Hoss Style]

Go ahead and let everyone in, Adam.

I have no doubt that as a stat guy, you can make up some sort of walking backwards and chewing gum "record" for pretty much every guy who has ever played.

Hall of Pretty Good just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Smith had the 6th, 10th, and 17th best seasons since 1999 in 2008, 2005, and 2011...

We have very different opinions of what should merit induction to the Hall of Fame.

No doubt there are other good players there. I just wish it was limited to great players.

Oh well.

I don't see how someone could have seen him in his best years and not think he was great. He was unstoppable.

ETA - After typing that, I think that might be his worst enemy. When he was killing the league, a lot of people didn't get to see him. If he was in a larger market, like New York or Chicago, etc, I honestly don't think there'd even be a question about it.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Go ahead and let everyone in, Adam.

I have no doubt that as a stat guy, you can make up some sort of walking backwards and chewing gum "record" for pretty much every guy who has ever played.

Hall of Pretty Good just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Smith had the 6th, 10th, and 17th best seasons since 1999 in 2008, 2005, and 2011...

We have very different opinions of what should merit induction to the Hall of Fame.

No doubt there are other good players there. I just wish it was limited to great players.

Oh well.

Steve Smith wasn't the only great player to play over the last fifteen years. Compare those finishes to Marvin Harrison. Compare them to Terrell Owens. Compare them to Randy Moss, or Andre Johnson, or Larry Fitzgerald, or Torry Holt, or Isaac Bruce. Compare them to Calvin Johnson. (Actually, Calvin is the only receiver since 1999 to have a more impressive resume in that specific statistic than Smith had.)

But that's just one silly little statistic. Excelling in "yards per target relative to teammates" requires being a great player, yes, but it also requires playing with really crappy teammates. It's not Marvin's fault that he lined up across from Reggie Wayne, or Fitzgerald's fault that he shared the field with Anquan Boldin.

Which is why that statistic was just one of the many, many pieces of evidence I was laying out. It wasn't a definitive statement on the quality of Steve Smith, it was meant to illustrate the shape and path of his career. It was a qualitative statistic as much as a quantitative one. He was a great receiver playing in an offense with no other credible threats.

At the end of the day, if you remain absolutely convinced that Steve Smith was a pretty good receiver, but that nobody who struggled to crack 7 touchdowns could ever be great, than fine. More power to you. I'd drive myself mad if I concerned myself overmuch with the beliefs of strangers on the internet, however wrong I might think them to be.

But I think Steve Smith was really special, a generational-type talent, and I truly hope everyone took an opportunity to appreciate him while he was happening. Because players like that are really, really rare, and by the time they're gone, it's too late.

 

[spider321]

Isaac Bruce > Steve Smith

Torry Holt > Steve Smith

Marvin Harrison > Steve Smith

Reggie Wayne > Steve Smith

Terrell Owens > Steve Smith

Randy Moss > Steve Smith

Larry Fitzgerald > Steve Smith

Andre Johnson > Steve Smith

Calvin Johnson > Steve Smith

Brandon Marshall > Steve Smith

Demaryius Thomas > Steve Smith

Antonio Brown > Steve Smith

Dez Bryant > Steve Smith

A.J. Green > Steve Smith

Julio Jones > Steve Smith

By my count that's at least 15 WR's, not yet in the Hall of Fame, who were/are at least as good as Steve Smith was at the same point in his career(most of them, far better). Yes, some of them won't have the longevity, but many of their per season stats will far surpass Smith's.

List whatever conveniently worded/framed statistics you want, but Steve Smith is not a "really special, really really rare, generational-type talent".

He's a guy who has been good for most of 15 years, and truly great for one of them. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[FUBAR]

Isaac Bruce > Steve Smith

Torry Holt > Steve Smith

Marvin Harrison > Steve Smith

Reggie Wayne > Steve Smith

Terrell Owens > Steve Smith

Randy Moss > Steve Smith

Larry Fitzgerald > Steve Smith

Andre Johnson > Steve Smith

Calvin Johnson > Steve Smith

Brandon Marshall > Steve Smith

Demaryius Thomas > Steve Smith

Antonio Brown > Steve Smith

Dez Bryant > Steve Smith

A.J. Green > Steve Smith

Julio Jones > Steve Smith

By my count that's at least 15 WR's, not yet in the Hall of Fame, who were/are at least as good as Steve Smith was at the same point in his career(most of them, far better). Yes, some of them won't have the longevity, but many of their per season stats will far surpass Smith's.

List whatever conveniently worded/framed statistics you want, but Steve Smith is not a "really special, really really rare, generational-type talent".

He's a guy who has been good for most of 15 years, and truly great for one of them. Nothing more, nothing less.

We can disagree on a few of those but hopefully you'll even admit that every player you listed except probably AJ, played with better quarterbacks.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Larry Fitzgerald > Steve Smith

Let's seize on this one for a moment. Larry Fitzgerald is a *phenomenal* wide receiver. He's another guy who I think is going to wind up in Canton one day. And he's put up some phenomenal stat lines. But in 2010, Larry Fitzgerald only put up 90/1137/6. That's 90 fewer yards and 3 fewer touchdowns than Steve Smith put up in his not-great 2006 season... in two more games of action. And don't even get me started on Fitzgerald's last three years. At age 29-31, when he should still be at the tail end of his prime, Larry Fitzgerald averaged 72/845/5 a year. For three years!

Now, of course the obvious counterargument is that this wasn't Larry Fitzgerald's fault. He was stuck with terrible quarterbacks like Max Hall and Ryan Lindley and John Skelton and Kevin Kolb. And now that he's getting good quarterback play again, his numbers have rebounded. The numbers he's putting up with halfway-decent quarterback play are much more representative of how good Larry Fitzgerald really is, right?

So let's extend Steve Smith that same courtesy. From 2005 to 2008- a four-year stretch- Steve Smith played 44 games with Jake Delhomme and 16 games with Chris Weinke, David Carr, and a 44-year-old Vinny Testaverde. Those guys are as bad as Skelton and Hall, right? So Smith should get a pass for his numbers with those brutal scrubs, just like Fitzgerald gets, right?

So let's look strictly at Steve Smith's numbers in his 44 games with Jake Delhomme. Again, this is over a 4-year span, not just his "one great season" in 2005. And over those four years with anything even resembling NFL-caliber quarterback play, Steve Smith averaged 1618 yards from scrimmage and 12 touchdowns per every 16 games. That's better than anything Larry Fitzgerald has ever done during his career with Kurt Warner or Carson Palmer... and Jake Delhomme is not as good of a quarterback as Kurt Warner or Carson Palmer! (And Carolina was one of the most run-heavy teams in the NFL while Arizona was one of the most pass-heavy.)

In Steve Smith's 16 games with those terrible quarterbacks, he put up 80/838/3. So pretty much right on par with what Larry Fitzgerald was doing with terrible quarterbacks.

Okay, so maybe Steve Smith wasn't a 1-year wonder. Maybe he was a 4-year wonder. What about after 2008? Well, Jake Delhomme seriously imploded in the playoffs after the 2008 season, and was never the same quarterback again. In 2009, he threw 8 TDs vs. 18 INTs and had a quarterback rating of 59.4. He was terrible. And then in 2010, Steve Smith's quarterback was Jimmy Clausen, who somehow managed to be even worse. Again, he was stuck with brutal quarterback play, and he wasn't able to rise above it any more than Larry Fitzgerald was.

Then, in 2011, with a raw rookie QB in Cam Newton who didn't even have an offseason to prepare, Steve Smith had 1450 yards from scrimmage and 7 touchdowns. And in 2012, at age 33, he added another 1200 yards from scrimmage. Again, Steve Smith with competent quarterback play was putting up huge numbers. Only three receivers, (Calvin, Brandon Marshall, and Wes Welker), had more yards from scrimmage over 2011 and 2012 than an old, past-his-prime Steve Smith playing with a raw rookie quarterback.

And then Steve Smith declined at age 34, (an age where Torry Holt and Randy Moss were already out of football), and Carolina let him go. And Smith went to Baltimore, where he once again had decent quarterback play, and where he once again set about turning in all sorts of records. Again, Steve Smith has only played a season and a half since his 35th birthday, but he already has more 100-yard games after turning 35 than any receiver in NFL history other than Jerry Rice.

So... Steve Smith. A guy who averaged 1600 yards and 12 touchdowns a year with even decent quarterback play in his prime. A guy who at 32 and 33 and playing with a raw young quarterback had the third most scrimmage yards in the NFL. A guy who in a year and a half has already had more big games at age 35 than anyone but Rice. He's dominated- yes, dominated- at every single age. And I don't need fancy statistics like "yards per team pass attempt" to show it, because simple statistics like "yards" and "100-yard games" and yes, even "touchdowns" tell that story well enough. And then on top of that, he's also going to finish as the second best playoff receiver in history, (feel free to argue that if you like), and also with one of the top ten yardage totals in history.

And the yardage total even understates his impact, because Smith is one of the most prolific *rushing* receivers in NFL history. He already ranks 9th in career yards from scrimmage, and will likely end this season at 6th. And, oh yeah, he was also an All-Pro return man, and he already ranks 3rd behind just Jerry Rice and Jim Brown in career all-purpose yards.

Peak? Longevity? Postseason performance? Steve Smith checks all the boxes. Yes, Steve Smith was "really special, a generational-type talent".

 

[JIslander]

Not to mention, there's a thread here about how his current quarterback sucks.

 

[Anarchy99]

I really have no dog in the fight, as Smith to me is a borderline HOFer (and my life won't change if he is or is not inducted).

However, there are just as many points to argue against his induction. For starters, having a high percentage of receiving yardage on a run first team isn't exactly a great selling point IMO. The "fame" part of the HOF would lead to wanting to induct big producers from high octane, high scoring offenses, not the best producers from teams near the bottom of the offensive categories. Does anyone really care about a RB that had the biggest percentage of rushing yards on a passing team? I am too lazy to do the research, but I suspect that a lot of the names in the RB category will not jump off the page.

Aside from his triple crown season in 2005, Smith has ranked in the Top 5 receptions, yardage, or touchdowns a grand total of two times. As far as his monster year goes, Smith missed most of the 2004 season . . . to be replaced by Mushin Muhammad, who produced 93-1405-16 before cashing in and moving on to CHI. Smith did have a great season in 2005 (103-1563-12), but was it that much better than what Muhammad did the season before?

There have been 15 seasons by a WR of at least 100-1500-10 in a season. Besides Smith's 2005 season, there were three by Marvin Harrison, two by Jerry Rice, and one each by Antonio Brown, Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Michael Irvin, Brandon Marshall, Herman Moore, Randy Moss, Demaryius Thomas, and Reggie Wayne. How to people feel about inducting Torry Holt or Herman Moore? Brandon Marshall is an interesting case study on his own (and I will probably start a thread on the legitimacy of his HOF candidacy)

Furthermore, some receivers have been inducted for their contributions to SB winning teams or legacies. Smith lost his one SB appearance and hasn't exactly been linked to a long-standing league powerhouse. While with Carolina, the Panthers went 88-94 in the regular season when Smith was in the line up. If the Ravens lose tonight, they will be 11-11 in the regular season with Smith. Between the Panthers and Ravens, Smith's teams have gone 6-5 in the post season (despite Smith having some really productive post season games).

I realize football is a team game and Smith is not singularly responsible for winning or losing. Similarly, Smith doesn't throw the ball to himself, and his QBs over the years have most years not been HOF caliber. Even so, one would have hoped Smith had played for better teams to make a better case to induct him into the HOF.

To be clear, I am not suggesting Smith was not a good player or a difference maker. However, when comparing him to his peers on a seasonal basis, he did not consistently put up top tier WR numbers (other than that one season). Yes, he did have a couple of other seasons with Top 5 yardage numbers, but he's been in the league since 2001.

Another barometer we have used in the past was can you tell the story of this era when discussing the history of the game and where does Smith fall into that narrative? In the past decade and a half, with all the great teams and great players, where does Smith fall in recanting the history of the past 15 years? He might be one tough hombre, but if I were producing an NFL documentary and had to focus on only 10 receivers from 200 on, I am not sure Smith would be included.

He has good long-term career number because he played for a long time. But does longer equal better? (I'm sure it does to women.) From players that played since 2000, of WR with at least 75 games played and 5000 receiving yards, Smith ranks 21st in receiving yards per game (with some other younger receivers set to pass him in the rankings as soon as they get to 75 games played).

If we had to pick the 10 best receivers that played in the past 15 years, who would those players be?

 

[FUBAR]

Larry Fitzgerald > Steve Smith

Let's seize on this one for a moment. Larry Fitzgerald is a *phenomenal* wide receiver. He's another guy who I think is going to wind up in Canton one day. And he's put up some phenomenal stat lines. But in 2010, Larry Fitzgerald only put up 90/1137/6. That's 90 fewer yards and 3 fewer touchdowns than Steve Smith put up in his not-great 2006 season... in two more games of action. And don't even get me started on Fitzgerald's last three years. At age 29-31, when he should still be at the tail end of his prime, Larry Fitzgerald averaged 72/845/5 a year. For three years!

Now, of course the obvious counterargument is that this wasn't Larry Fitzgerald's fault. He was stuck with terrible quarterbacks like Max Hall and Ryan Lindley and John Skelton and Kevin Kolb. And now that he's getting good quarterback play again, his numbers have rebounded. The numbers he's putting up with halfway-decent quarterback play are much more representative of how good Larry Fitzgerald really is, right?

So let's extend Steve Smith that same courtesy. From 2005 to 2008- a four-year stretch- Steve Smith played 44 games with Jake Delhomme and 16 games with Chris Weinke, David Carr, and a 44-year-old Vinny Testaverde. Those guys are as bad as Skelton and Hall, right? So Smith should get a pass for his numbers with those brutal scrubs, just like Fitzgerald gets, right?

So let's look strictly at Steve Smith's numbers in his 44 games with Jake Delhomme. Again, this is over a 4-year span, not just his "one great season" in 2005. And over those four years with anything even resembling NFL-caliber quarterback play, Steve Smith averaged 1618 yards from scrimmage and 12 touchdowns per every 16 games. That's better than anything Larry Fitzgerald has ever done during his career with Kurt Warner or Carson Palmer... and Jake Delhomme is not as good of a quarterback as Kurt Warner or Carson Palmer! (And Carolina was one of the most run-heavy teams in the NFL while Arizona was one of the most pass-heavy.)

In Steve Smith's 16 games with those terrible quarterbacks, he put up 80/838/3. So pretty much right on par with what Larry Fitzgerald was doing with terrible quarterbacks.

Okay, so maybe Steve Smith wasn't a 1-year wonder. Maybe he was a 4-year wonder. What about after 2008? Well, Jake Delhomme seriously imploded in the playoffs after the 2008 season, and was never the same quarterback again. In 2009, he threw 8 TDs vs. 18 INTs and had a quarterback rating of 59.4. He was terrible. And then in 2010, Steve Smith's quarterback was Jimmy Clausen, who somehow managed to be even worse. Again, he was stuck with brutal quarterback play, and he wasn't able to rise above it any more than Larry Fitzgerald was.

Then, in 2011, with a raw rookie QB in Cam Newton who didn't even have an offseason to prepare, Steve Smith had 1450 yards from scrimmage and 7 touchdowns. And in 2012, at age 33, he added another 1200 yards from scrimmage. Again, Steve Smith with competent quarterback play was putting up huge numbers. Only three receivers, (Calvin, Brandon Marshall, and Wes Welker), had more yards from scrimmage over 2011 and 2012 than an old, past-his-prime Steve Smith playing with a raw rookie quarterback.

And then Steve Smith declined at age 34, (an age where Torry Holt and Randy Moss were already out of football), and Carolina let him go. And Smith went to Baltimore, where he once again had decent quarterback play, and where he once again set about turning in all sorts of records. Again, Steve Smith has only played a season and a half since his 35th birthday, but he already has more 100-yard games after turning 35 than any receiver in NFL history other than Jerry Rice.

So... Steve Smith. A guy who averaged 1600 yards and 12 touchdowns a year with even decent quarterback play in his prime. A guy who at 32 and 33 and playing with a raw young quarterback had the third most scrimmage yards in the NFL. A guy who in a year and a half has already had more big games at age 35 than anyone but Rice. He's dominated- yes, dominated- at every single age. And I don't need fancy statistics like "yards per team pass attempt" to show it, because simple statistics like "yards" and "100-yard games" and yes, even "touchdowns" tell that story well enough. And then on top of that, he's also going to finish as the second best playoff receiver in history, (feel free to argue that if you like), and also with one of the top ten yardage totals in history.

And the yardage total even understates his impact, because Smith is one of the most prolific *rushing* receivers in NFL history. He already ranks 9th in career yards from scrimmage, and will likely end this season at 6th. And, oh yeah, he was also an All-Pro return man, and he already ranks 3rd behind just Jerry Rice and Jim Brown in career all-purpose yards.

Peak? Longevity? Postseason performance? Steve Smith checks all the boxes. Yes, Steve Smith was "really special, a generational-type talent

Career all-purpose yards

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/all_purpose_yds_career.htm

1. Jerry Rice+ 23,546 1985-2004 3TM 2. Brian Mitchell 23,330 1990-2003 3TM 3. Walter Payton+ 21,803 1975-1987 chi 4. Emmitt Smith+ 21,564 1990-2004 2TM 5. Tim Brown+ 19,682 1988-2004 2TM 6. Marshall Faulk+ 19,190 1994-2005 2TM 7. LaDainian Tomlinson 18,456 2001-2011 2TM 8. Barry Sanders+ 18,308 1989-1998 det 9. Steve Smith (36) 18,221 2001-2015 2TM 10. Herschel Walker 18,168 1986-1997 4TM but he's only 128th in career AV. (tied with 3 HOFers)

 

[FUBAR]

If we had to pick the 10 best receivers that played in the past 15 years, who would those players be?

Assuming you just mean they had to retire or stop playing after 2000 and we're not going with career stats, just when playing, who was the best...

Rice

TO

Moss

Marvin

Carter

Calvin

Antonio Brown

AJ

Tim Brown

Smurf

Dez