AP selects All Pro 1st and 2nd teams each season, so there has never been fewer than 4 WRs selected as All Pro during Smith's career. At times, there has been a higher number because there have been ties on 1st or 2nd team. PFW and TSN also select All Pro teams each season, and have occasionally chosen a different WR than the 2 chosen by AP.Fariq said:Well, there are only two WR spots on the all-league team.
Yet Smith only made second team once. Thanks for helping make my point.For example, one QB gets 50 ### Press votes. If so, then there is no second team QB.
Meanwhile, ten linebackers are "named to the second team."
You're welcome.Yet Smith only made second team on ce. Thanks for helping make my point.
Could you imagine Smith's numbers if he had a good QB that matched his skill set throughout his career??AP selects All Pro 1st and 2nd teams each season, so there has never been fewer than 4 WRs selected as All Pro during Smith's career. At times, there has been a higher number because there have been ties on 1st or 2nd team. PFW and TSN also select All Pro teams each season, and have occasionally chosen a different WR than the 2 chosen by AP.
As many as 6 WRs have been selected as All Pro in a season by one of these sources during Smith's career, and there were as many seasons with 5 WRs selected as with 4.
Smith was 1st team All Pro in 2001 as a kick returner, 1st team All Pro in 2005 as a WR, and 2nd team All Pro in 2008 as a WR. This is one of the areas in which Smith's resume is lacking in comparison to his peers who will also be under HOF consideration.
Great thing about the HoF is that it's kind of like art, you can't always define it but you know it when you see it.He may have been the best WR in the NFL for one year, 2005. Other than that he's never had more than 8 TDs, never led the league in a receiving stat, and hasn't made All-Pro except as a returner (and then only once).
Well, OK, what measure do you use instead? Top 5 receiving yardage seasons? Smith has three. Top 5 receiving TD seasons? Smith has one. Top 5 yards/reception seasons? Smith has one.Justin Smith, Vontaze Burfict, and Terrell Suggs got votes at different positions in recent years. The astute observer can poke holes in Asso Press voting every year.
To me, all-league (all-pro is a dinosaur term as there is no AAFC or AFL anymore) selections are good and useful but they are not great.
Yes, it is. Any stat that indicates Smith might be the greatest pound for pound WR of his era is not just great - it's a fantastic fact!That is a great trivia fact.
(your facts are incorrect, btw)He may have been the best WR in the NFL for one year, 2005. Other than that he's never had more than 8 TDs, never led the league in a receiving stat, and hasn't made All-Pro except as a returner (and then only once).
He'd rule the Smurfs, but they would not be nearly as happy and carefree.I think we can all agree he belongs in the "Hall of Fame for angry smurf receivers"
Nah, that's not insulting.basically i just can't understand how a thinking person can believe this kind of system never makes mistakes.
My point was that it is a great trivia fact but that's all it is. It doesn't bear on the subject of discussion, whether or not Smith is HOF worthy.Yes, it is. Any stat that indicates Smith might be the greatest pound for pound WR of his era is not just great - it's a fantastic fact!That is a great trivia fact.
I must say, I really don't get responses like this. If you aren't interested in discussing the subject of the thread with people who may have different opinions, why post in the thread at all? And if you are interested in such discussion, why post a comment like this one that I quoted?f that means you don't respect my opinion I'm long past over it.
I fully respect your right to an opinion. I'm glad that the voters tend to agree with me.I must say, I really don't get responses like this. If you aren't interested in discussing the subject of the thread with people who may have different opinions, why post in the thread at all? And if you are interested in such discussion, why post a comment like this one that I quoted?
You responded above to highlight a dissenting post that you characterized as insulting, yet you posted previously in the thread to dismiss the opinions of the "stat hounds," i.e., those who disagree with you, and went on to dismissively state your thankfulness that the voters "get it" and don't pay attention to such differing opinions. That is about roughly as insulting as the post you responded to above, it's just that your insults are in line with your opinion on the matter, so you possibly don't see them as insulting, just "right."
Larry Fitzgerald is a great example of someone who deserves the Hall more than Smith. Also playing with mostly mediocre QBs, he finished in the top 5 in receiving yards 4 times, led the league in receiving TDs twice, went to 9 Pro Bowls, and is reasonably likely to end his career as #2 all time in receiving yards, and in the top 5 in receiving TDs. He is better than Smith in every receiving metric and is better on the field.(your facts are incorrect, btw)
I thought of this thread today after watching the Baltimore game. My line of thinking heading over here was "I bet the thread is dead. There can't really be any argument against him anymore, can there?".
I'm flabbergasted there is. People say he wasn't the best WR in the league, and then use his stats when he was on the worst passing team (attempts) in the league, or the year he missed two games and still ravaged DBs to put up top stats. Here's a secret: he was still the best WR when on bad teams. In fact, he was historically good for being on those teams. Another of my favorite WRs, Fitz, is in a similar boat - but Fitz is well liked, built like a stud WR and a hell of a representation of what a WR should be marketing wise - and the NFL (and media) has taken advantage of that. Good for Fitz. I love the guy.
Smith is not that guy, but has done strikingly similar work on the field with, at times, less.
Give me some time to round up Smith's work. His all time ranking, not just in stats overall, but stats within dismal offeneses, is amazing.
9 of Fitz's 13 seasons have been with Warner or Palmer. Smitty has never had anyone remotely close to that caliber.Larry Fitzgerald is a great example of someone who deserves the Hall more than Smith. Also playing with mostly mediocre QBs, he finished in the top 5 in receiving yards 4 times, led the league in receiving TDs twice, went to 9 Pro Bowls, and is reasonably likely to end his career as #2 all time in receiving yards, and in the top 5 in receiving TDs. He is better than Smith in every receiving metric and is better on the field.
British racing green.You might as well argue over which is the best color.
Delhomme was absolutely of Palmer's caliber. They are actually very similar QBs,.9 of Fitz's 13 seasons have been with Warner or Palmer. Smitty has never had anyone remotely close to that caliber.
Are those players all from the same era?What's interesting about comparing players is that people will think some guys are locks and others not worthy when their totals are very similar.
PLAYER A:
197 games, 1096 receptions, 14236 YFS, 103 TD, 104 AV
PLAYER B:
197 games, 1057 receptions,, 13816 YFS, 81 TD, 113 AV
PLAYER C:
193 games, 1062 receptions, 14239 YFS, 70 TD, 124 AV
One of those players is considered a lock, one of those players is considered a near lock (or has an excellent chance), and one of those players rarely is even mentioned as a potential HOFer.
FitzAre those players all from the same era?
This is why statistics are only part of the story. How about adding the honors/awards, winning/postseason success, impact on the game (if any), and compelling/signature seasons/games/plays into this comparison?What's interesting about comparing players is that people will think some guys are locks and others not worthy when their totals are very similar.
PLAYER A:
197 games, 1096 receptions, 14236 YFS, 103 TD, 104 AV
PLAYER B:
197 games, 1057 receptions,, 13816 YFS, 81 TD, 113 AV
PLAYER C:
193 games, 1062 receptions, 14239 YFS, 70 TD, 124 AV
One of those players is considered a lock, one of those players is considered a near lock (or has an excellent chance), and one of those players rarely is even mentioned as a potential HOFer.
I generally prefer to look at things season-by-season, when I have the time. First compare each player's best season, then compare each player's second best season, etc. The player's peak is more important - it matters more if he had 100 YPG or 80 YPG in his second-best season than if he had 50 YPG or 30 YPG in his worst season. And going season-by-season also makes it easier to consider context, e.g. if one guy had Peyton Manning for his 3rd best season and another had Skelton & Kolb, or if one guy's team threw 450 passes and another's threw 740 passes. To make things a little quicker to look through, you can also group things to look at a player's totals in his 3 best seasons, then his next 3 best, etc.What's interesting about comparing players is that people will think some guys are locks and others not worthy when their totals are very similar.
PLAYER A:
197 games, 1096 receptions, 14236 YFS, 103 TD, 104 AV
PLAYER B:
197 games, 1057 receptions,, 13816 YFS, 81 TD, 113 AV
PLAYER C:
193 games, 1062 receptions, 14239 YFS, 70 TD, 124 AV
One of those players is considered a lock, one of those players is considered a near lock (or has an excellent chance), and one of those players rarely is even mentioned as a potential HOFer.
Well if you exclude the stats and production you are correct.Delhomme was absolutely of Palmer's caliber. They are actually very similar QBs,.
Palmer: Passer rating 87.8, YPA 7.3, TD% 4.7Well if you exclude the stats and production you are correct.
Palmer - 1.6 TDs, 253 yds, 21.6 comps per game
Delhomme - 1.2 TDs, 204 yds, 16.9 comps per game
Basically Palmer throws 33% more TDs per game, 25% more yards per game, and completes 30% more completions per game.
Adjusting Smitty's numbers for Fitz caliber QBing and you would have 1300 catches, 105 TDs, and 18000 yards. That would put Smitty 2nd behind Rice in yards, 8th and roughly tied with Fitz for TDs, and 2nd behind Rice in receptions. Stone cold HOF lock.
By the way, Warner was 1.6 TDs, 260 yards, 22.5 comps per game during his tenure in Arizona. That's 9 years of good QBs for Fitz while Smitty got 7 years of Delhomme and two years of take your pick from Chris Weinke, Randy Fassani, Jimmy Clausen, or who could forget Brain St. Pierre. If I adjust the later for Fitz quality QBing Smith might be threaten a Rice record or two.
I see you have asked for more. No prob. Ask and you shall receive.Adjusting Smitty's numbers
If by about as many you really mean a lot less then I would agree...Palmer: Passer rating 87.8, YPA 7.3, TD% 4.7
Delhomme: Passer rating 81.3, YPA 7.2 TD% 4.3
The main difference is that Palmer throws more passes (35 att/gm vs. 30), and Warner even more. But Smith also has more targets/attempt; Smith got about as many targets/game as Fitzgerald during his prime.
Smith missed games. The target differential in those seven seasons is less than one per game. (.96).If by about as many you really mean a lot less then I would agree...
Smitty's top 7 seasons: 150, 148, 142, 139, 137, 137, 134
Fitz's top 7 seasons: 173, 167, 165, 156, 154, 154, 153
So 7 of Fitz's season target total eclipsed Smith's best total (he roughly gets 20 more targets a year every year). Based on Smith's production he would have amassed rough another 180 receipts, 2600 yards, and 14 TDs over the course of his career. That puts Smith at 17000 yards (2nd all time), 1200 receipts (2nd all time WR), and 93 TDs (12th all time).
Smith missed 3 games, Fitzpatrick missed one.Smith missed games. The target differential in those seven seasons is less than one per game. (.96).
Smith missed 3 games, Fitzpatrick missed one.
Doesn't matter how you slice it, no reasonable person is going to equate Delhomme to Kurt Warner and Carson Palmer.
Delhomme was absolutely of Palmer's caliber. They are actually very similar QBs,.
Palmer: Completion% 62.6, INT% 3.0Palmer: Passer rating 87.8, YPA 7.3, TD% 4.7
Delhomme: Passer rating 81.3, YPA 7.2 TD% 4.3
The main difference is that Palmer throws more passes (35 att/gm vs. 30), and Warner even more. But Smith also has more targets/attempt; Smith got about as many targets/game as Fitzgerald during his prime.
Palmer: Completion% 62.6, INT% 3.0
Delhomme: Completion% 59.4, INT% 3.4
In virtually every metric Palmer>>>Delhomme. If a couple of those leaned towards Delhomme then maybe I would see an argument for being qualitatively similar to Palmer but the reality is that Palmer was better in every way.
Although, to be fair, Delhomme was a much better QB in the playoffs (by every measure) than Palmer.
Are these career averages? It seems like it would be better to leave out seasons like Andre Johnson's 2016. Sticking around for an extra half-year as a mildly useful rotational receiver shouldn't downgrade our opinion of him.Admittedly fantasy scoring is not a metric that has anything to do with HOF voting, but here are all the WR that A) played in at least 150 career games, B) played at some point in their careers within the past 10 years, and C) averaged at least 7.0 fantasy ppg in 0 ppr leagues:
Marvin Harrison 11.73
Terrell Owens 11.66
Randy Moss 11.41
Brandon Marshall 10.42
Larry Fitzgerald 10.36
Torry Holt 10.33
Andre Johnson 9.55
Anquan Boldin 9.47
Isaac Bruce 9.34
Steve Smith 9.21
Chad Johnson 9.19
Reggie Wayne 9.13
Keyshawn Johnson 8.74
Rod Smith 8.70
Roddy White 8.57
Vincent Jackson 8.22
Wes Welker 8.17
Hines Ward 8.14
Joey Galloway 8.06
Laveranues Coles 7.75
Muhsin Muhammad 7.54
Joe Horn 7.49
Santana Moss 7.41
Keenan McCardell 7.33
Chris Chambers 7.30
Eric Moulds 7.04
As has been mentioned by several people, the HOF is not the Hall of Statistics, but the list at least shows a decent cross section of how players stack up against each other from guys in roughly the same era (or one generation removed from each other).
If the number of games played is scaled down from 150 games to 135 games, this would be the list . . .
Calvin Johnson 12.46
Marvin Harrison 11.73
Terrell Owens 11.66
Randy Moss 11.41
Brandon Marshall 10.42
Larry Fitzgerald 10.36
Torry Holt 10.33
Marques Colston 9.65
Andre Johnson 9.55
Anquan Boldin 9.47
Isaac Bruce 9.34
Steve Smith 9.21
Chad Johnson 9.19
Reggie Wayne 9.13
Keyshawn Johnson 8.74
Rod Smith 8.70
Roddy White 8.57
Greg Jennings 8.49
Terry Glenn 8.45
Plaxico Burress 8.45
Vincent Jackson 8.22
Wes Welker 8.17
Hines Ward 8.14
Joey Galloway 8.06
Laveranues Coles 7.75
Muhsin Muhammad 7.54
Joe Horn 7.49
Santana Moss 7.41
Keenan McCardell 7.33
Chris Chambers 7.30
Eric Moulds 7.04
You guys can debate who on those lists are legit HOF contenders and how many WR the voters will induct from roughly the same time frame (based on whatever numbers, rings, awards, or other criteria).