Take It Sleazy - Laid Back, Countrified Cali Dudes vs. Eccentric Prog Scotsmen (1 Viewer)

[otb_lifer]

pardon if a Honda, but search returned nil - so, on with it i go ...

went down a meandering YouTube rabbit hole while searching for "The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles" (pun intended), and came across this interesting bit of info ... did they boost from Tull? sounds an awful lot like they did -

the Tull original "We Used To Know"    

and, for the two or three people who have never heard it  "Hotel California" (Vimeo link, as YouTube blocked content of the studio version)

Ian's take on it   - he dodges proclaiming outright plagiarism, even going so far as to say it was an homage of sorts, but you can tell he believes that they were cognizant of the copy (bonus fact, he had no use for them prior to the "incident"  ) 

what say you?

 

[rockaction]

I can't turn off this '90's Genrepalooza hip hop mix to do it. I'm listening to Liquid Swords right now. But I will...oh, I will. 

What's up, otb?  

 

[rockaction]

Okay, here's my thoughts. When it comes to copyright infringement, a jury's ears are actually important. It's part of a two-pronged test to determine whether a song infringes upon another. It's designed to be a layman's test, not a music theory one. The other test is about access, knowledge, etc. 

Clearly, given Ian's take, the Eagles had access and knowledge to the song. 

But the jury...

I think Hotel California survives on its own. It sounds different. They're very similar, but who knows what sort of scales they were using, etc. I think @Eephuswould be great for this thread. 

Verdict: Not guilty. I can identify Hotel California from the first string pick, and did it in Philly once. 

 

[otb_lifer]

What's up, otb?  

just  doin' my coffee/cigs routine on a lazy Monday morn ... hope all is cool w/you   

Okay, here's my thoughts. When it comes to copyright infringement, a jury's ears are actually important. It's part of a two-pronged test to determine whether a song infringes upon another. It's designed to be a layman's test, not a music theory one. The other test is about access, knowledge, etc. 

Clearly, given Ian's take, the Eagles had access and knowledge to the song. 

But the jury...

I think Hotel California survives on its own. It sounds different. They're very similar, but who knows what sort of scales they were using, etc. I think @Eephuswould be great for this thread. 

Verdict: Not guilty. I can identify Hotel California from the first string pick, and did it in Philly once. 

i was sorta of the same mindset here, but, the more i listen to the Tull song, and considering the extenuating circumstances of touring together when Tull was featuring the tune, it has swayed me to a definite guilty verdict, musically.

as far as the legal ramifications of infringement, Ian never pursued ... and it's clear to see why in the piece i linked - he strikes me as the sort who had no time for that legal mumbo-jumbo, and is exceedingly (almost painfully) polite and somewhat ambivalent while discussing the actual similarities.

but that biting Brit humor comes in at the end: "i consider it a bit of a tribute, like this tribute Rolex that i'm wearing"    

 

[rockaction]

just  doin' my coffee/cigs routine on a lazy Monday morn ... hope all is cool w/you   

i was sorta of the same mindset here, but, the more i listen to the Tull song, and considering the extenuating circumstances of touring together when Tull was featuring the tune, it has swayed me to a definite guilty verdict, musically.

as far as the legal ramifications of infringement, Ian never pursued ... and it's clear to see why in the piece i linked - he strikes me as the sort who had no time for that legal mumbo-jumbo, and is exceedingly (almost painfully) polite and somewhat ambivalent while discussing the actual similarities.

but that biting Brit humor comes in at the end: "i consider it a bit of a tribute, like this tribute Rolex that i'm wearing"    

See, I watched the Ian piece and his talk about chord progressions and mathematical finiteness is what I was thinking, too. It's the equivalent of the doctrine of written merger. I guess it turns on the access, and since they were on tour together...well...

Why does Jethro Tull need a tribute Rolex, by the way?  

Oh, I just got that. He called it a knock-off.  

 

[otb_lifer]

See, I watched the Ian piece and his talk about chord progressions and mathematical finiteness is what I was thinking, too. It's the equivalent of the doctrine of written merger. I guess it turns on the access, and since they were on tour together...well...

Why does Jethro Tull need a tribute Rolex, by the way?  

Oh, I just got that. He called it a knock-off.  

... and now starting to hear strains of  This  in the Tull song 

 

[El Floppo]

great thread title. I keep getting hooked and checking back in for the really good sleaze, but am forced to hear hotel california instead.

 

[otb_lifer]

great thread title. I keep getting hooked and checking back in for the really good sleaze, but am forced to hear hotel california instead.

whaddya expect from a ####### hungover (half) Irishman?  

 

[Doug B]

To me, this is similar to the likeness between the opening bars of Spirit's "Taurus" and those of Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven". Zepellin had toured with Spirit in late 60s, and Zeppelin was known to lift material here and there. But the "Taurus" lift was just a few bars.

If the Eagles lifted anything from Tull, it was the structure of "We Used to Know", not the melody. They're not miles apart, but neither are they exact duplicates. Both songs have their guitar solos in the same places and for about the same length of time (studio versions). The percussion parts of the songs are very different, however. The "Hotel California" intro is nowhere to be found in Tull's song. I wouldn't call this a blatant lift -- the Eagles probably liked the 'feel' of "We Used to Know" and ended up writing something that was similarly evocative in the rhythm line behind Henley's verses. The Eagles' lead instrumentation on "Hotel", however, goes off in a completely different direction and is more polished and sophisticated than Tull's on "We Used to Know". Same with the harmony vocals in "Hotel's" choruses -- there's nothing analogous in Tull's track.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

great thread title. I keep getting hooked and checking back in for the really good sleaze, but am forced to hear hotel california instead.

Reminds me of the entire late 1970's.

 

[Koya]

To me, this is similar to the likeness between the opening bars of Spirit's "Taurus" and those of Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven". Zepellin had toured with Spirit in late 60s, and Zeppelin was known to lift material here and there. But the "Taurus" lift was just a few bars.

If the Eagles lifted anything from Tull, it was the structure of "We Used to Know", not the melody. They're not miles apart, but neither are they exact duplicates. Both songs have their guitar solos in the same places and for about the same length of time (studio versions). The percussion parts of the songs are very different, however. The "Hotel California" intro is nowhere to be found in Tull's song. I wouldn't call this a blatant lift -- the Eagles probably liked the 'feel' of "We Used to Know" and ended up writing something that was similarly evocative in the rhythm line behind Henley's verses. The Eagles' lead instrumentation on "Hotel", however, goes off in a completely different direction and is more polished and sophisticated than Tull's on "We Used to Know". Same with the harmony vocals in "Hotel's" choruses -- there's nothing analogous in Tull's track.

And, of you used 'stealing the structure of a song' as a measure of plagraism, we'd have like three songs that comprise all of modern pop music, the other few hundred just variations on that theme.

 

[Eephus]

and now, this

 

[SWC]

just  doin' my coffee/cigs routine on a lazy Monday morn ... hope all is cool w/you   

i was sorta of the same mindset here, but, the more i listen to the Tull song, and considering the extenuating circumstances of touring together when Tull was featuring the tune, it has swayed me to a definite guilty verdict, musically.

as far as the legal ramifications of infringement, Ian never pursued ... and it's clear to see why in the piece i linked - he strikes me as the sort who had no time for that legal mumbo-jumbo, and is exceedingly (almost painfully) polite and somewhat ambivalent while discussing the actual similarities.

but that biting Brit humor comes in at the end: "i consider it a bit of a tribute, like this tribute Rolex that i'm wearing"    

See, I watched the Ian piece and his talk about chord progressions and mathematical finiteness is what I was thinking, too. It's the equivalent of the doctrine of written merger. I guess it turns on the access, and since they were on tour together...well...

Why does Jethro Tull need a tribute Rolex, by the way?  

Oh, I just got that. He called it a knock-off.  

the whole thing is that he is being very polite but says that they didnt like the eagles and then he says well it just happens blah blah blah and then ends it with a clear slam and that my friends was an epic burn on the eagles who did steal the hell out of that song take that to the bank bromigos 

 

[otb_lifer]

To me, this is similar to the likeness between the opening bars of Spirit's "Taurus" and those of Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven". Zepellin had toured with Spirit in late 60s, and Zeppelin was known to lift material here and there. But the "Taurus" lift was just a few bars.

If the Eagles lifted anything from Tull, it was the structure of "We Used to Know", not the melody. They're not miles apart, but neither are they exact duplicates. Both songs have their guitar solos in the same places and for about the same length of time (studio versions). The percussion parts of the songs are very different, however. The "Hotel California" intro is nowhere to be found in Tull's song. I wouldn't call this a blatant lift -- the Eagles probably liked the 'feel' of "We Used to Know" and ended up writing something that was similarly evocative in the rhythm line behind Henley's verses. The Eagles' lead instrumentation on "Hotel", however, goes off in a completely different direction and is more polished and sophisticated than Tull's on "We Used to Know". Same with the harmony vocals in "Hotel's" choruses -- there's nothing analogous in Tull's track.

great take here     i have grown to love and appreciate "Hotel" so much as the years go by ... appreciate your fleshing out of this, though i may not agree 100%

And, of you used 'stealing the structure of a song' as a measure of plagraism, we'd have like three songs that comprise all of modern pop music, the other few hundred just variations on that theme.

yeah, i get the whole "everything under the sun has already been done" shtick, and no one claimed it was a note for note rip, but ... to not see the direct similarities here, along with the musical proximity of both bands back in '72, is selling the theory very short.

 

[otb_lifer]

Reminds me of the entire late 1970's.

and now, this

:X

rumor has it that kid toured with latter day Tull 

the whole thing is that he is being very polite but says that they didnt like the eagles and then he says well it just happens blah blah blah and then ends it with a clear slam and that my friends was an epic burn on the eagles who did steal the hell out of that song take that to the bank bromigos 

/thread.

 

[rockaction]

Why do the Scots do prog and indie and art rock so well? I'm thinking Mogwai, My Bloody Valentine, etc. 

Mogwai and My Bloody Valentine coming from that same country is ridiculous.  

 

[SWC]

true when i am feeling like putting the windows down cranking some tunes and enjoying a nice spring day i immediately think of mogwai oh wait no i dont take that to the bank bromigos 

 

[otb_lifer]

Why do the Scots do prog and indie and art rock so well? I'm thinking Mogwai, My Bloody Valentine, etc. 

Mogwai and My Bloody Valentine coming from that same country is ridiculous.  

they have the ages old gift of the Picts  kookiness coursing through their veins - poets/warriors/alt noodlers

 

[rockaction]

they have the ages old gift of the Picts  kookiness coursing through their veins - poets/warriors/alt noodlers

I'm not sure what Picts are, otb. I'll have to look that up. Is there a tradition among the Scots? 

 

[otb_lifer]

I'm not sure what Picts are, otb.

Floyd down?

 

[El Floppo]

I'm not sure what Picts are, otb. I'll have to look that up. Is there a tradition among the Scots? 

ancient scottish tradition of image compression.

 

[rockaction]

Ah, I just looked up. A loose association of tribes that make up the Scots. 

Well then, carry on.  

 

[ChiefD]

Wish they both would have stolen some cow bell from Blue Oyster Cult. 

 

[SWC]

there is a great mash up of ozzy ozborun and earth wind and fire doing crazy train out there i am pretty sure they stole that from blue oyster cult take that to the bank brohans 

 

[dickey moe]

Two bands happened to use one of the eight standard chord progressions in rock music. What a coincidence.

 

[otb_lifer]

there is a great mash up of ozzy ozborun and earth wind and fire doing crazy train out there i am pretty sure they stole that from blue oyster cult take that to the bank brohans 

take this to the blood bank, brochacho

 

[SWC]

there is a great mash up of ozzy ozborun and earth wind and fire doing crazy train out there i am pretty sure they stole that from blue oyster cult take that to the bank brohans 

take this to the blood bank, brochacho

thanks for putting my jam up brohan you are the swc brohan of the day take that to the bank 

 

[otb_lifer]

thanks for putting my jam up brohan you are the swc brohan of the day take that to the bank 

this beats the living #### outta "winning the day" like those handful of poli sub denizens do so frequently