Tatum Bell to Debut on Friday (1 Viewer)

[P Boy]

Todays lesson is the passage of time. Time passes, end of lesson.

Matt Lepsis 30

Dan Neil  31

Tom Nalen  33

Foster is a rookie and they lost Alex Gibbs.

Geez, I love arguing with guys like you. Next 'fact' that you want to throw out here?Actually, today's lesson is: providing 'accurate' information or getting called out on it.

Foster is not a rookie. This is his second year.

The arguably top O-lines this year and the ages of the starters. If you include DEN's starters, then more than 1/3rd (38%) of the starters are 30 or older.

KC

Roaf – 34

Waters – 27

Wiegman – 31

Shields – 32

Welbourn – 28

MIN

McKinnie – 24

Liwienski – 29

Birk – 28

Dixon – 35

Rosenthal – 27

GB

Clifton – 28

Wahle – 27

Flanagan – 30

Rivera – 32

Tauscher – 27

PHI

Thomas – 29

Mayberry – 30

Fraley – 26

Andrews – 21

Runyan – 30

IND

Glenn – 28

DeMulling – 27

Saturday – 29

Peko – 25

Diem – 25

SEA

Jones – 30

Hutchinson – 26

Tobeck – 34

Gray – 34

Terry – 29

BAL

Ogden – 30

Mulitalo – 29

Flynn – 30

Anderson – 27

Brown - 33

 

[P Boy]

Please don't say that Griffin's production is very similar to Portis'. It isn't. It's more prolific, but it is less condusive to the operation of a scoring offense.

Admittedly, I looked at Portis performance so far this year. Theres no way to compare apples to apples with different teams across different year so your analysis is as valid as my analysis of Portis at Washington which follows:

So you are saying that Portis' production this preseason with a different team is a better point of comparison than Portis last year with essentially the same team that Griffin is running with this year?The only different O starters are losing Sharpe at TE and switching Foster for Salaam. Again, by all accounts, Foster is the better OT, and while the loss of Sharpe hurts, one can make a very valid argument that the much, much better play of the D offsets Sharpe's loss, since the D helps set the table for the O.

 

[The Man Who Met Andy Griffith]

'Short running backs get hurt more.' Well, small running backs get hurt more, but thats not the same thing. Griffin has a low center of gravity and is built similar to Barry Sanders.

Barry sanders didn't get hurt much because he was so fast and elusive that he didn't get a lot of hard hits. There are very few players with those types of skills, and Griffin isn't one of them (although I think Griffin is a good runner).Not to mention that for reasons I don't understand, Denver backs always seem to get hurt.

There is no way that Griffin plays all 16 games without getting injured, IMO. But then I don't think Bell would be able to either.

Griffin is small, BTW. He's only recently topped 200 pounds. That's small. Portis was small (and he got hurt). Bell is small too. But don't tell me Griffin isn't small.

 

[mbuehner]

Foster is not a rookie. This is his second year.

Well, you got me there, although he only played once last year.

If you include DEN's starters, then more than 1/3rd (38%) of the starters are 30 or older. The arguably top O-lines this year and the ages of the starters:

Looking down that list, the only team comparable to Denver is KC and we'll see if they can keep playing at an elite level this year. You have to take the line as a whole, you've got 3 players that may be losing a step and a young tackle with limited experience. Does that mean they are going to suck? No, but its hardly radical to consider that might be the explanation for why the holes arent as big as they used to be and the penetration into the backfield that we've seen so far this year. I'm hardly the only one who's noticed.

 

[mbuehner]

So you are saying that Portis' production this preseason with a different team is a better point of comparison than Portis last year with essentially the same team that Griffin is running with this year?

Im saying nobody in Washington is pushing the panic button because of Portis' "inconsistancy". I wish I could find game logs from years past because Im willing to bet there have been plenty, if not most, successful fantasy RBs with similar 'stuff' percentages to Griffin thus far.

The only different O starters are losing Sharpe at TE and switching Foster for Salaam. Again, by all accounts, Foster is the better OT, and while the loss of Sharpe hurts, one can make a very valid argument that the much, much better play of the D offsets Sharpe's loss, since the D helps set the table for the O

Did Jake Plummer have a passer rating of 30.9 like he does this preseason?

 

[P Boy]

Looking down that list, the only team comparable to Denver is KC and we'll see if they can keep playing at an elite level this year. You have to take the line as a whole, you've got 3 players that may be losing a step and a young tackle with limited experience. Does that mean they are going to suck? No, but its hardly radical to consider that might be the explanation for why the holes arent as big as they used to be and the penetration into the backfield that we've seen so far this year. I'm hardly the only one who's noticed.

I know that this is going to be dismissed out of hand by you, but isn't it remotely possible that Griffin is the problem & not the line? Griffin has little patience and attacks the LoS too quickly. DEN's O-line play has always been predicated on technique and 1 cut by the RB. This type of system requires that the RB be patient, wait for the garbage to clear out of the hole, then burst through and cut to the open spot. A RB who doesn't allow the O-line to do it's job can make the O-line look bad by his poor running.I remember coaching a trap play in high school. The RB refused to wait for his offguard to clear the hole & the RB ran smack into an unblocked DT. I chewed the RB's #### on the sideline, told him to take 2 false steps, then hit the hole. It gave the OG a chance to blindside the DT & the RB went 60+ yds for a score.The blocking was identical on both plays, same players. It was just the fact that the RB wouldn't wait for his line the first play, and he did wait on the second play. That's how simple the problem can be, and that's what it looks like one of Griffin's problems is to me.Of course, I'm sure that you think otherwise...

 

[joffer]

Griffin

HoF

-1,0,27,16,0,3,1

week 1

4,0,8,12,3,-4,7,2,12

week 2

2,10,1,5,0,3,3,1,1,3,10,1,18,1,-1

Griffin

31 carries, 137 yds

2 or less yds: 14 - 45%

3-5 yds: 7 - 23%

6-9 yds: 2 - 6%

10+ yds: 5 - 16%

***************************************************

Now, this is exactly what I have been saying. Portis (and good backs) find a way to turn 1 yd carries into 3 yd carries. Portis' highest percentage of carries by a wide margin were of the 3-5 yd variety. Griffin's highest percentage of carries by a wide percentage are for 2 yds or less.

DEN 2003 preseason 1st team

9 series, 2 TD, 3 FGs, 1 blocked FG, 1 TO

DEN 2004 preseason 1st team

11 series, 0 TDs, 4 FGs, 0 blocked FGs, 3 TOs

Big difference in placing the offense in an advantageous situation on 2nd & 3rd down. And a big difference in increasing the odds of keeping drives going. Please don't say that Griffin's production is very similar to Portis'. It isn't. It's more prolific, but it is less condusive to the operation of a scoring offense.

This is very telling to me. The Denver offense can't be successful like this.

 

[mbuehner]

What Griffin woes? He's averaging over 4 yards a carry. He's the only thing going remotely right. You want a consistant 3 yards? Bring in Eddie George and see how that goes. Lots of 4th and 1. Griffin is picking up 1st downs and moving the ball, he's the only one.

I'm not dismissing you out of hand at all. You could well be right about why Griffin gets stuffed. What I am saying is that watching the Denver line play in general, they are allowing more penetration on both passing and running plays than i have seen in years past. Can you deny Plummer has the happy feet? All i'm saying is, is it possible that Griffin is getting hit in the backfield more often, and the holes arent opening _period_ from time to time. Thats what I have seen. But lets not lose focus, he still is running quite well. Just not elite, no question. If you think thats enough to replace him, well, we'll see. Again, I just am not hearing anything remotely like that from the people who count, the Broncos.

 

[Apu]

I just skipped to the end, didn't read much of the thread.Few things. First, just because a team spent a high draft pick on a guy doesn't mean he's an automatic starter. It's all about production and winning. Second, having read some of your posts MacDaddy, I feel much more confident with Griffin, now that you're backing Bell.

 

[mbuehner]

Big difference in placing the offense in an advantageous situation on 2nd & 3rd down. And a big difference in increasing the odds of keeping drives going

You arent paying attention. Denver is throwing on first down.I've looked at every play run by Denver during the first halves of their preseason games. This includes Griffin/Anderson/Hearst and Plummer/Kanell and there is no difference in the play calling depending who is on the field, you can go look.On first down:Running plays 17Passing plays 28Your thesis is wrong. Denver wants to throw on 1st down, that is their system. If they were making plays in their passing game their offense wouldnt be stymied.

 

[P Boy]

This is very telling to me. The Denver offense can't be successful like this.

And the problem is that it is completely consistent with his regular season performance from last year:Quentin Griffith 2003 regular season

94 rushes, 345 yds, 3.7 ypc, 0 TDs

Gained 2 or less yds - 45 carries (47.8%)

Gained 3-5 yds - 25 carries (26.6%)

Gained 6-9 yds - 19 carries (20.2%)

Gained 10+ yds - 5 carries (5.3%)

It has to start dawning on some here that the DEN offense can't run properly out of consistently long passing downs. Not with Plummer at QB.

 

[popeye]

Did Jake Plummer have a passer rating of 30.9 like he does this preseason?

I don't have numbers in front of me but I'm a big fan of Plummer as we both went to ASU. I was just moving to Denver during last year's pre-season and I remember Jake looking like hell in one of the games that I saw. Don't know if he was as bad as this pre-season but he's caught problems here because of the how he handled a reporter's question recently. When asked about the poor performance by the off-season he just replied with "what's the date?" which reminded me a lot of Allen Iverson's "Practice?" tirade.

 

[zamboni]

The way I see it, we don't know much more about Griffin's ability to be a workhorse than we do about Bell.Griffin's resume consists of one very strong game and a handful of so-so performances last year, as well as an extremely solid training camp this year. That's nothing to sneeze at, but not exactly a full body of work to assess.Obviously we know very little about Bell's abilities as a pro since he hasn't played, only that he was the highest drafted RB ever drafted by Shanahan (to be fair, just a higher draft spot in the 2nd than Portis). Does that guarantee anything for Bell? Absolutely not. But those hyping Griffin need to be aware that we're not talking about a proven guy here.If you own one or draft one of the two guys, I'd be surely trying to grab the other one later.

 

[mbuehner]

Ok, further analysis because apparently i have too much time on my hands.Here are the breakdowns of Denvers 3 preseason games. I threw out penalties, only used the 1st halfs, and lumped sacks and ints and scrambles as incompletions. I threw out the 2 minute drill at the end of game 2, second quarter (obviously all passes).26 pass plays, 16 rushing plays, passing 62% of the time on 1st downs.26 passing plays, 8 completions = 30% complete on 1st down.Griffin on the field:Run 12 timespass 18 times (60% of the time)Griffin rushed 3.08 y/c on 1st downsAnderson on the fieldRun 4 timesPass 5 times (56% of the time)Anderson rushed 2.25 y/c on 1st downsHearst on the fieldRun 2 timesPass 3 times (60% of the time)Hearst rushed for 5.0 y/cSo tell me again how Griffin is stifling this offense. You complete 30% of your throws on first down and you'll want a back that can bust out 12 yard runs at any time, not 3 yards and a cloud of dust. So who fits this offense better?

 

[WarRedbirds]

Did Jake Plummer have a passer rating of 30.9 like he does this preseason?

I don't have numbers in front of me but I'm a big fan of Plummer as we both went to ASU. I was just moving to Denver during last year's pre-season and I remember Jake looking like hell in one of the games that I saw. Don't know if he was as bad as this pre-season but he's caught problems here because of the how he handled a reporter's question recently. When asked about the poor performance by the off-season he just replied with "what's the date?" which reminded me a lot of Allen Iverson's "Practice?" tirade.

Plummer is terrible. Good college QB, poor NFL QB. Even Shanahan can't change that.

 

[popeye]

Did Jake Plummer have a passer rating of 30.9 like he does this preseason?

I don't have numbers in front of me but I'm a big fan of Plummer as we both went to ASU. I was just moving to Denver during last year's pre-season and I remember Jake looking like hell in one of the games that I saw. Don't know if he was as bad as this pre-season but he's caught problems here because of the how he handled a reporter's question recently. When asked about the poor performance by the off-season he just replied with "what's the date?" which reminded me a lot of Allen Iverson's "Practice?" tirade.

Plummer is terrible. Good college QB, poor NFL QB. Even Shanahan can't change that.

I wouldn't agree with poor QB. The worst I would accept is average.

 

[Bojang0301]

Portis is too small and inconsistent to be an NFL running back... The argument that Bell was selected to be the guy because he was taken in the second does not make sense to me. Shanny went out and got Hearst before drafting Bell and it seems Bell is just another way to increase the chance that his offense can produce RB's like nothing. Like others have said once a starter is entrenched in Denver the other back must outperform him significantly barring injury. There has also been alot of bull #### in this thread about how much Bell is better then Q in certain catagories. Griffin is a superior blocker and reciever to Bell and has provided a spark in Denver's offense. It would be unfair of me to judge Bell having not seen him play yet but why can't I when that's all the Bell lovers do. IMO Bell is the second coming alright.... the second coming of Dung Canidate.

 

[The Man Who Met Andy Griffith]

Griffin is a superior blocker and reciever to Bell and has provided a spark in Denver's offense.

What data supports your contention that Griffin is a better blocker than Bell? The only quote I can think of was Shanny saying that Bell was the best blocking RB in the draft. I remember Shanny also said that Griffin was the second best runner in his draft, but I don't remember him talking about blocking.

 

[Vipers]

It is not the 2nd round selection status that will earn Bell the job over Griffin - it will be Bell OUTPLAYING Griffin (and Hearst, and Anderson), and that alone, that will earn Bell the field.

Shanny drafted Bell because he saw value in that selection. You need a good backup runningback in this league as they can become starters in an instant. Griffen has proved that he is the starter. Bell needs to earn the starting job. It is not going to be handed to him just because he is a second round pick.

 

[P Boy]

Shanny drafted Bell because he saw value in that selection. You need a good backup runningback in this league as they can become starters in an instant. Griffen has proved that he is the starter. Bell needs to earn the starting job. It is not going to be handed to him just because he is a second round pick.

The obvious flaw in this argument, as has been pointed out many times, is that Shanahan alreay had 2 capable (read former 1500 yd rushing RBs) backup RBs on the roster at the time he drafted Bell.

 

[cstu]

The Broncos drafted Bell in the 2nd rnd while Griffin was on the roster. That should tell you something right there. Bell was drafted to be the starter and only the finger injury prevented him from taking over. Both players were studs in college, similar size but Bell is a little bigger and a better receiver. Griffin's starting job hangs by a very thin thread. Jump on Bell if you still can.

Using your logic Rudi Johnson, Travis Henry, Marshall Faulk and Priest Holmes are all out of starting jobs, cause their teams took RBs in the FIRST round while the starting RBs are on the roster.

Except all of those teams have proven starters, unlike the Broncos.

 

[cstu]

Now I know Bell will be the starter. ---'Bell is earmarked to overtake Griffin', everything that has come out of Shanahan, the coordinators, and the teammates mouths says exactly the opposite

 

[railman305]

IMO Bell is the second coming alright.... the second coming of Dung Canidate.

ill remember that

 

[heyshady]

Since we all know the Denver offensive line makes RBs looks good and since none of us actually watch football we just look at stats, I thought this was interesting...Career averages in one of the top running offenses in footballortis 5.5 ypc Anderson 4.5 ypcGary 4.0 ypcGriffin 3.7 ypc

 

[mbuehner]

Career averages in one of the top running offenses in footballortis 5.5 ypc Anderson 4.5 ypcGary 4.0 ypcGriffin 3.7 ypc

Career carriesortis: 563Anderson: 626Gary: 496Griffin: 94Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

 

[Carver Lee]

Shanny drafted Bell because he saw value in that selection. You need a good backup runningback in this league as they can become starters in an instant. Griffen has proved that he is the starter. Bell needs to earn the starting job. It is not going to be handed to him just because he is a second round pick.

The obvious flaw in this argument, as has been pointed out many times, is that Shanahan alreay had 2 capable (read former 1500 yd rushing RBs) backup RBs on the roster at the time he drafted Bell.

Statistically, the Broncos were 8th offensively and 3rd defensively in 2003. Coming into the draft they didn't have just a whole lot of holes to fill. They addressed their biggest concern with the Portis trade leaving a certain level of uncertainly at running back.TD is gone, Gary is gone, Portis is gone. MA is a piss-test away from a year's suspension. Hearst, while solid the last couple years, is aging and fragile. Griffin is undersized and completely unproven. Suddenly the well is a little dry.. so the question should be, why WOULDN'T they take Bell there? Taking Bell where they did is no way conducive to the fact that they believe Griffin isn't the answer. They were simply in a position to cover all their bases and did so.

 

[P Boy]

Statistically, the Broncos were 8th offensively and 3rd defensively in 2003. Coming into the draft they didn't have just a whole lot of holes to fill.

LOL!I hope that you are fishing. There are significant holes on this team - even after the draft.

 

[Carver Lee]

Statistically, the Broncos were 8th offensively and 3rd defensively in 2003. Coming into the draft they didn't have just a whole lot of holes to fill.

LOL!I hope that you are fishing. There are significant holes on this team - even after the draft.

God Bless you Pony Boy.Every team has holes to fill but it's all relative. Name the team that was more solid than the Broncos on both sides of the ball last year and I'll zip it shut for the rest of the preseason.Would you rather I said GLARING WEAKNESS?

 

[popeye]

Name the team that was more solid than the Broncos on both sides of the ball last year and I'll zip it shut for the rest of the preseason.

I'm going to guess the Patriots. What do I win?

 

[Marc Levin]

Name the team that was more solid than the Broncos on both sides of the ball last year and I'll zip it shut for the rest of the preseason.

I'm going to guess the Patriots. What do I win?

I don't think their offense was as highly ranked, but that's good enough for me to ask if carver will honor the statement.

 

[popeye]

Name the team that was more solid than the Broncos on both sides of the ball last year and I'll zip it shut for the rest of the preseason.

I'm going to guess the Patriots. What do I win?

I don't think their offense was as highly ranked, but that's good enough for me to ask if carver will honor the statement.

I agree. I'm not a Patriots fan but their offense definitely generated some run support for the defense.

 

[heyshady]

Career averages in one of the top running offenses in footballortis 5.5 ypc Anderson 4.5 ypcGary 4.0 ypcGriffin 3.7 ypc

Career carriesortis: 563Anderson: 626Gary: 496Griffin: 94Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Lies? 100 carries isn't enough to make a sample? Olandis Gary averaged 6.2 ypc on his first 70 or so touches. I'm sure Clinton averaged over 5 on his first 100. It's not like I quoted 15 carries, it's practically 100!All every does around here is point out Griffin's great stats but they never compare them to other RBs in the SAME system. Put Eddie George's name on Quentin's stats and the whole board would be ready to put a gun to his head and put him out of his misery.The fact is, in the Denver offense, Q should be performing much better than he has. That is why the job is up for grabs. Not saying Bell is the answer just saying I will not be surprised to see Quentin give way to someone.

 

[Carver Lee]

Name the team that was more solid than the Broncos on both sides of the ball last year and I'll zip it shut for the rest of the preseason.

I'm going to guess the Patriots. What do I win?

I don't think their offense was as highly ranked, but that's good enough for me to ask if carver will honor the statement.

I agree. I'm not a Patriots fan but their offense definitely generated some run support for the defense.

Both the Quincy Carter led Cowboys and those putrid San Diego Chargers had a higher ranked offense than the Pats in '03.

 

[RAIDERNATION.]

Name the team that was more solid than the Broncos on both sides of the ball last year and I'll zip it shut for the rest of the preseason.

I'm going to guess the Patriots. What do I win?

I don't think their offense was as highly ranked, but that's good enough for me to ask if carver will honor the statement.

I agree. I'm not a Patriots fan but their offense definitely generated some run support for the defense.

Both the Quincy Carter led Cowboys and those putrid San Diego Chargers had a higher ranked offense than the Pats in '03.

Good to see you finally broke your cherry and joined this forum! You'll see Donny, Beal and Santos 'round the way.

 

[popeye]

Quentun Griffin just got his first TD of the pre-season. Replays on local Denver TV show he didn't really get in but he looked strong dragging defenders so I'll let him have it.

 

[Carver Lee]

Good to see you finally broke your cherry and joined this forum! You'll see Donny, Beal and Santos 'round the way.

Thank you sir.I have emailed you the address to which you can send me a fruit basket.

 

[Hobbes]

The Broncos drafted Bell in the 2nd rnd while Griffin was on the roster. That should tell you something right there. Bell was drafted to be the starter and only the finger injury prevented him from taking over. Both players were studs in college, similar size but Bell is a little bigger and a better receiver. Griffin's starting job hangs by a very thin thread. Jump on Bell if you still can.

Holmes was on the roster when L Johnson was drafted in the first round....therefore Johnson should have the job from him by what the 3rd game?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Good to see you finally broke your cherry and joined this forum! You'll see Donny, Beal and Santos 'round the way.

Thank you sir.I have emailed you the address to which you can send me a fruit basket.

Keep it in the cage.

 

[Grilled Cheesehead]

Bell boosters seem oddly quiet tonight.

 

[ProudestMonkey]

Since we all know the Denver offensive line makes RBs looks good and since none of us actually watch football we just look at stats, I thought this was interesting...Career averages in one of the top running offenses in footballortis 5.5 ypc Anderson 4.5 ypcGary 4.0 ypcGriffin 3.7 ypc

Bell 2.6 ypc

 

[Cleavage Connoisseur]

Shanny drafted Bell because he saw value in that selection.  You need a good backup runningback in this league as they can become starters in an instant.  Griffen has proved that he is the starter.  Bell needs to earn the starting job.  It is not going to be handed to him just because he is a second round pick.

The obvious flaw in this argument, as has been pointed out many times, is that Shanahan alreay had 2 capable (read former 1500 yd rushing RBs) backup RBs on the roster at the time he drafted Bell.

Statistically, the Broncos were 8th offensively and 3rd defensively in 2003. Coming into the draft they didn't have just a whole lot of holes to fill. They addressed their biggest concern with the Portis trade leaving a certain level of uncertainly at running back.TD is gone, Gary is gone, Portis is gone. MA is a piss-test away from a year's suspension. Hearst, while solid the last couple years, is aging and fragile. Griffin is undersized and completely unproven. Suddenly the well is a little dry.. so the question should be, why WOULDN'T they take Bell there? Taking Bell where they did is no way conducive to the fact that they believe Griffin isn't the answer. They were simply in a position to cover all their bases and did so.

Well said,It,s similar to Fantasy Football, Make sure you have three good running backs.

 

[mbuehner]

Tatum Bell: 9 carries for 29 yards, 2.56 y/c against the scrubs in the second half. But he's consistent.

 

[P Boy]

Tatum Bell: 9 carries for 29 yards, 2.56 y/c against the scrubs in the second half. But he's consistent.

LOL. I knew this wouldn't take long. So you think the DEN RB question is answered for the entire season after last Friday?

 

[mbuehner]

LOL. I knew this wouldn't take long. So you think the DEN RB question is answered for the entire season after last Friday?

There isnt a team in the NFL i would make that claim of.

 

[P Boy]

LOL. I knew this wouldn't take long. So you think the DEN RB question is answered for the entire season after last Friday?

There isnt a team in the NFL i would make that claim of.

LOLEM @ the sudden hedging.Okay, barring injury, do you think that the DEN RB situation is resolved for the season?

 

[stedman]

Tatum Bell: 9 carries for 29 yards, 2.56 y/c against the scrubs in the second half. But he's consistent.

Houston's scrubs are better than Denver's.One carry in the 3rd and the rest in the 4th.

 

[mbuehner]

Okay, barring injury, do you think that the DEN RB situation is resolved for the season?

Yes.

 

[Mark Wimer]

Okay, barring injury, do you think that the DEN RB situation is resolved for the season?

Yes.

What he said.

 

[sentr]

It seems fairly clear to me that Q Griffin will be the starter without a short leash. Anderson was more of a threat to Q than was Bell. With Anderson down, this only strengthens Q's hold on the spot. I've followed Skeletor and his musings for years and feel that I have developed a sense of deciphering through his muddled/deceptive wordings. Can't explain it or put a finger on it, but I've been right, consistently over the past couple of years with respect to this. The entire Denver staff genuinely seems to be impressed by Q's ability--not to mention that his teammates favor him and support him as well. Guys take sides in the locker room-that's no mystery. Q seems to have the fellas on his side--and that can make for an improved situation there, in itself. Bell owners should not lose hope, as Bell could re-emerge--this IS the NFL afterall. But I would not be misguided in simply assuming that he is, at some point this season, going to magically supplant Q as the starting RB. It's not a given...Actually it's actually more of a reach to think Bell will be the RB instead of Q.