TE Jordan Matthews, CAR (3 Viewers)

[ShaHBucks]

The word I'm hearing out of camp is that Matthews looks big and fast. He is apparently not lost with the playbook either.

He's been breaking down the Eagles offense before the draft even happened. Degree from Vandy. No surprise at all.

 

[CentralPA]

I can see both sides of the argument for Matthews. I'm not sure he's going to be an elite wideout or not but I don't see it being this year. He's going to be a slot guy who helps move the chains but I could see his size helping him snatch 4 or 5 TDs to start this year. Once Chip moves him out wide (and Huff into the slot) then we'll see if he becomes elite.

 

[ShaHBucks]

Lol at anybody getting mad.

Anyway his measureables are elite to. You kind of moved the goal post on us EBF but he fell in the lower end for your cut off on BMI. He's 6'3 212 pounds and he ran a 4.6. His jumps aren't off the charts but they are above average. Add his work ethic and situation and he's an elite prospect.

Biases can manipulate or misrepresent data. The whole point of using numbers is to beat the eyeball scouts. You can't always have both.*the reason for using statistics is to make evidenced-based decision. It's the same way coca-cola puts out new products, 75% of movies watched on Netflix are based on their recommendations, target can identify which of their costumers are pregnant or you credit card company can study your spending habits and predict when you'll miss a payment. The statistics field has grown leaps and bounds the past few years. Traditional scouting has not. So I'll keep exploiting the data and follow those that can accurately.

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

From rotoworld:

Jordan Matthews - WR - Eagles
The Philadelphia Inquirer's Jimmy Kempski opines that Eagles second-round WR Jordan Matthews has "looked like the best receiver on the team" during OTAs, "and it hasn't been close."
This isn't the first we've read about Matthews starring at OTAs. Kempski's colleague, Jeff McLane, singled out Matthews, saying the No. 42 overall pick has yet to drop a pass as the slot receiver with the second-team offense. Jeremy Maclin is still knocking off the rust from his torn ACL, and Riley Cooper played better than many expected last season. Anticipate Cooper taking on more of a blocking role in 2014. He's a candidate to be over-drafted in fantasy. Matthews is a hard worker and could have some re-draft appeal in the later rounds.


Source: Jimmy Kempski on Twitter
Jun 10 - 1:17 PM

 

[MattFancy]

From rotoworld:

Jordan Matthews - WR - Eagles
The Philadelphia Inquirer's Jimmy Kempski opines that Eagles second-round WR Jordan Matthews has "looked like the best receiver on the team" during OTAs, "and it hasn't been close."
This isn't the first we've read about Matthews starring at OTAs. Kempski's colleague, Jeff McLane, singled out Matthews, saying the No. 42 overall pick has yet to drop a pass as the slot receiver with the second-team offense. Jeremy Maclin is still knocking off the rust from his torn ACL, and Riley Cooper played better than many expected last season. Anticipate Cooper taking on more of a blocking role in 2014. He's a candidate to be over-drafted in fantasy. Matthews is a hard worker and could have some re-draft appeal in the later rounds.


Source: Jimmy Kempski on Twitter
Jun 10 - 1:17 PM

Makes me feel even better about trading for him last week

 

[Milkman]

From rotoworld:

Jordan Matthews - WR - Eagles
The Philadelphia Inquirer's Jimmy Kempski opines that Eagles second-round WR Jordan Matthews has "looked like the best receiver on the team" during OTAs, "and it hasn't been close."
This isn't the first we've read about Matthews starring at OTAs. Kempski's colleague, Jeff McLane, singled out Matthews, saying the No. 42 overall pick has yet to drop a pass as the slot receiver with the second-team offense. Jeremy Maclin is still knocking off the rust from his torn ACL, and Riley Cooper played better than many expected last season. Anticipate Cooper taking on more of a blocking role in 2014. He's a candidate to be over-drafted in fantasy. Matthews is a hard worker and could have some re-draft appeal in the later rounds.


Source: Jimmy Kempski on Twitter
Jun 10 - 1:17 PM

LOL at meh hands.............

 

[Zyphros]

Scared I won't get him at 1.09 anymore

 

[ShaHBucks]

Anyone can gain weight. That makes no sense. There is no proof to that scientifically at all. He's probably drinking a Chip Kelly smoothie right now.

It is actually kind of incredible to me that people really believe this. If it's that simple, why isn't every WR in the NFL jacked up like TO or Andre? Seems pretty clear if you have any common sense or experience with sports that different people carry weight differently and have a different natural playing weights. You are not going to see Reggie Miller bulk up like Lebron or DeSean Jackson get ripped like Christine Michael. That's just not how this stuff works.

I also wonder where you think these gains are going to come from with a player who was in a major college football program for four years.

http://articles.philly.com/2014-06-09/sports/50423409_1_bennie-logan-nose-tackle-10-poundsThat's not about Matthews but it's relative.

The 10 pounds Bennie Logan added this offseason beefed the Eagles' starting nose tackle to around 317-319 pounds, depending on the day.

When general manager Howie Roseman was asked at the scouting combine in February about getting a bigger player for the middle of the defensive line, he gave an ardent endorsement of Logan. Roseman said Logan has the frame to hold 320 pounds and raved about his athleticism.

I know how the Eagles staff works. They've been doing this since Kelly arrived.

After each practice, a few Eagles scouts go around measuring prospects' wrists and around their knees. Here they are measuring around the knee of Georgia Tech CB Jemea Thomas.

This is to determine how lean the prospect is, which helps the Eagles figure out how much weight the prospect can carry. Last year around draft time, Lane Johnson explained the practice to Jeff McLane.

"They want to see how lean you are. They'll measure your wrists, around your knees and ankles to see what your body can hold and they told me [it was] around 315, 320."

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/eagles/Senior-Bowl-practice-notes-Day-2.html#5WL8EJCdoyougz2z.99I have more aticles on Eagles players weight and nutrition but I'm too lazy to look. If I had to guess, Matthews frame is capable of holding another 5-10 pounds without losing any athleticism.

 

[Milkman]

Scared I won't get him at 1.09 anymore

He has been going in the top five in some of the rookie drafts posted in this forum. I'm worried he will be gone before 1.05.

 

[Milkman]

Anyone can gain weight. That makes no sense. There is no proof to that scientifically at all. He's probably drinking a Chip Kelly smoothie right now.

It is actually kind of incredible to me that people really believe this. If it's that simple, why isn't every WR in the NFL jacked up like TO or Andre? Seems pretty clear if you have any common sense or experience with sports that different people carry weight differently and have a different natural playing weights. You are not going to see Reggie Miller bulk up like Lebron or DeSean Jackson get ripped like Christine Michael. That's just not how this stuff works.

I also wonder where you think these gains are going to come from with a player who was in a major college football program for four years.

http://articles.philly.com/2014-06-09/sports/50423409_1_bennie-logan-nose-tackle-10-poundsThat's not about Matthews but it's relative.

The 10 pounds Bennie Logan added this offseason beefed the Eagles' starting nose tackle to around 317-319 pounds, depending on the day.

When general manager Howie Roseman was asked at the scouting combine in February about getting a bigger player for the middle of the defensive line, he gave an ardent endorsement of Logan. Roseman said Logan has the frame to hold 320 pounds and raved about his athleticism.

I know how the Eagles staff works. They've been doing this since Kelly arrived.

After each practice, a few Eagles scouts go around measuring prospects' wrists and around their knees. Here they are measuring around the knee of Georgia Tech CB Jemea Thomas.

This is to determine how lean the prospect is, which helps the Eagles figure out how much weight the prospect can carry. Last year around draft time, Lane Johnson explained the practice to Jeff McLane.

"They want to see how lean you are. They'll measure your wrists, around your knees and ankles to see what your body can hold and they told me [it was] around 315, 320."

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/eagles/Senior-Bowl-practice-notes-Day-2.html#5WL8EJCdoyougz2z.99I have more aticles on Eagles players weight and nutrition but I'm too lazy to look. If I had to guess, Matthews frame is capable of holding another 5-10 pounds without losing any athleticism.

Not sure about 10 pounds but 5 should really be no problem. But he's 212 pounds now. If he was 215 we wouldn't be even talking about it. The fact is he even falls in EBF's BMI cut off 9on the lower end) so it's really not an issue if he didn't gain any weight.

 

[EBF]

More rehashing of the same points that have already been made and discussed.

6'3 4.46 is not below average for an elite WR.

According to my numbers...

For the sake of comparison, here is what some of the top NFL receivers did at the combine/pro day. The first figure is the BMI. The next three numbers are the 40 time, vertical, and broad jump:

Andre Johnson - 29.5 (4.41 - 39" - 11'0")
Vincent Jackson - 28.9 (4.46 - 39" - 10'9")
Dez Bryant - 28.8 (4.52 - 38" - 11'1")
Victor Cruz - 28.3 (4.47 - 41.5" - 10'5")
Calvin Johnson - 28.3 (4.35 - 42.5" - 11'7")
Larry Fitzgerald - 28.3 - results not available
Hakeem Nicks - 28.3 (4.51, 36", ??)
Michael Crabtree - 28.1 - did not work out before the draft
Demaryius Thomas - 27.8 did not work out before the draft
Julio Jones - 27.8 (4.34 - 38.5" - 11'3")
Brandon Marshall - 27.6 (4.52 - 37" - 10'0")
Roddy White - 27.2 (4.46 - 41" - 10'6")
Steve Smith - 27.2 (4.41 - 38.5" - 10'1")
Reggie Wayne - 26.9 (4.45 - 36" - ???)
Marques Colston - 26.9 (4.50 - 37" - 10'3")
Percy Harvin - 26.7 (4.39 - 37.5" - 10'1")
AJ Green - 26.0 (4.48 - 34.5" - 10'6")

...the average "elite" WR looks approximately like this:

BMI - 27.8

40 - 4.45

Vertical - 38.3"
Broad Jump - 10' 7.5"

Matthews looks like this:

BMI - 26.4

40 - 4.44

Vertical - 35.5"

Broad Jump - 10'

If you ranked him on the above list he would be....

- 17th out of 18 in BMI (bottom 11%)

- 6th out of 15 in the 40 (bottom 67%)

- 14th out of 15 in the vertical (bottom 13%)

- Tied for 13th out of 13 in the broad jump (bottom 15%)

I'm not going to go through and calculate the height for every player, but he would probably rank about 6th or 7th out of 18. So basically he is probably 1-1.5" taller than average and a hair faster than average. He's also really slender for a potential #1 WR and his 40 time should probably be viewed through that lens since he's not carrying as much weight as most of these guys. I tend to view speed and BMI as being inversely related in the sense that thinner players will tend to run faster times and heavier players will tend to run slower times. From that perspective, his 6th best 40 time as the 17th thickest player is perhaps even a little disappointing.

The jumps are flat out bad, ranking near the bottom of the sample and well below the averages.

Overall, it's probably pretty fair to say that his athleticism is well off the mark for an elite WR1. Thin frame. Average speed. Below average explosiveness. The only concrete positive is height. Plenty of these other players have that and more.

Taken as a whole, he doesn't have even average athletic traits for an NFL WR1. Spin it however you want.

 

[ShaHBucks]

Anyone can gain weight. That makes no sense. There is no proof to that scientifically at all. He's probably drinking a Chip Kelly smoothie right now.

It is actually kind of incredible to me that people really believe this. If it's that simple, why isn't every WR in the NFL jacked up like TO or Andre? Seems pretty clear if you have any common sense or experience with sports that different people carry weight differently and have a different natural playing weights. You are not going to see Reggie Miller bulk up like Lebron or DeSean Jackson get ripped like Christine Michael. That's just not how this stuff works.

I also wonder where you think these gains are going to come from with a player who was in a major college football program for four years.

http://articles.philly.com/2014-06-09/sports/50423409_1_bennie-logan-nose-tackle-10-poundsThat's not about Matthews but it's relative.

The 10 pounds Bennie Logan added this offseason beefed the Eagles' starting nose tackle to around 317-319 pounds, depending on the day.

When general manager Howie Roseman was asked at the scouting combine in February about getting a bigger player for the middle of the defensive line, he gave an ardent endorsement of Logan. Roseman said Logan has the frame to hold 320 pounds and raved about his athleticism.

I know how the Eagles staff works. They've been doing this since Kelly arrived.

After each practice, a few Eagles scouts go around measuring prospects' wrists and around their knees. Here they are measuring around the knee of Georgia Tech CB Jemea Thomas.

This is to determine how lean the prospect is, which helps the Eagles figure out how much weight the prospect can carry. Last year around draft time, Lane Johnson explained the practice to Jeff McLane.

"They want to see how lean you are. They'll measure your wrists, around your knees and ankles to see what your body can hold and they told me [it was] around 315, 320."

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/eagles/Senior-Bowl-practice-notes-Day-2.html#5WL8EJCdoyougz2z.99I have more aticles on Eagles players weight and nutrition but I'm too lazy to look. If I had to guess, Matthews frame is capable of holding another 5-10 pounds without losing any athleticism.

Not sure about 10 pounds but 5 should really be no problem. But he's 212 pounds now. If he was 215 we wouldn't be even talking about it. The fact is he even falls in EBF's BMI cut off 9on the lower end) so it's really not an issue if he didn't gain any weight.

You're right, but I wouldn't be surprised. A lot of his other measurables line up with heavier players 220+ http://mockdraftable.com/player/4349/. Maybe...

 

[Milkman]

Anyone can gain weight. That makes no sense. There is no proof to that scientifically at all. He's probably drinking a Chip Kelly smoothie right now.

It is actually kind of incredible to me that people really believe this. If it's that simple, why isn't every WR in the NFL jacked up like TO or Andre? Seems pretty clear if you have any common sense or experience with sports that different people carry weight differently and have a different natural playing weights. You are not going to see Reggie Miller bulk up like Lebron or DeSean Jackson get ripped like Christine Michael. That's just not how this stuff works.

I also wonder where you think these gains are going to come from with a player who was in a major college football program for four years.

http://articles.philly.com/2014-06-09/sports/50423409_1_bennie-logan-nose-tackle-10-poundsThat's not about Matthews but it's relative.

The 10 pounds Bennie Logan added this offseason beefed the Eagles' starting nose tackle to around 317-319 pounds, depending on the day.

When general manager Howie Roseman was asked at the scouting combine in February about getting a bigger player for the middle of the defensive line, he gave an ardent endorsement of Logan. Roseman said Logan has the frame to hold 320 pounds and raved about his athleticism.

I know how the Eagles staff works. They've been doing this since Kelly arrived.

After each practice, a few Eagles scouts go around measuring prospects' wrists and around their knees. Here they are measuring around the knee of Georgia Tech CB Jemea Thomas.

This is to determine how lean the prospect is, which helps the Eagles figure out how much weight the prospect can carry. Last year around draft time, Lane Johnson explained the practice to Jeff McLane.

"They want to see how lean you are. They'll measure your wrists, around your knees and ankles to see what your body can hold and they told me [it was] around 315, 320."

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/eagles/Senior-Bowl-practice-notes-Day-2.html#5WL8EJCdoyougz2z.99I have more aticles on Eagles players weight and nutrition but I'm too lazy to look. If I had to guess, Matthews frame is capable of holding another 5-10 pounds without losing any athleticism.

Not sure about 10 pounds but 5 should really be no problem. But he's 212 pounds now. If he was 215 we wouldn't be even talking about it. The fact is he even falls in EBF's BMI cut off 9on the lower end) so it's really not an issue if he didn't gain any weight.

You're right, but I wouldn't be surprised. A lot of his other measurables line up with heavier players 220+ http://mockdraftable.com/player/4349/. Maybe...

wow great find shaHBucks! That's very interesting............

 

[Milkman]

More rehashing of the same points that have already been made and discussed.

6'3 4.46 is not below average for an elite WR.

According to my numbers...

For the sake of comparison, here is what some of the top NFL receivers did at the combine/pro day. The first figure is the BMI. The next three numbers are the 40 time, vertical, and broad jump:

Andre Johnson - 29.5 (4.41 - 39" - 11'0")

Vincent Jackson - 28.9 (4.46 - 39" - 10'9")

Dez Bryant - 28.8 (4.52 - 38" - 11'1")

Victor Cruz - 28.3 (4.47 - 41.5" - 10'5")

Calvin Johnson - 28.3 (4.35 - 42.5" - 11'7")

Larry Fitzgerald - 28.3 - results not available

Hakeem Nicks - 28.3 (4.51, 36", ??)

Michael Crabtree - 28.1 - did not work out before the draft

Demaryius Thomas - 27.8 did not work out before the draft

Julio Jones - 27.8 (4.34 - 38.5" - 11'3")

Brandon Marshall - 27.6 (4.52 - 37" - 10'0")

Roddy White - 27.2 (4.46 - 41" - 10'6")

Steve Smith - 27.2 (4.41 - 38.5" - 10'1")

Reggie Wayne - 26.9 (4.45 - 36" - ???)

Marques Colston - 26.9 (4.50 - 37" - 10'3")

Percy Harvin - 26.7 (4.39 - 37.5" - 10'1")

AJ Green - 26.0 (4.48 - 34.5" - 10'6")

...the average "elite" WR looks approximately like this:

BMI - 27.8

40 - 4.45

Vertical - 38.3"

Broad Jump - 10' 7.5"

Matthews looks like this:

BMI - 26.4

40 - 4.44

Vertical - 35.5"

Broad Jump - 10'

If you ranked him on the above list he would be....

- 17th out of 18 in BMI (bottom 11%)

- 6th out of 15 in the 40 (bottom 67%)

- 14th out of 15 in the vertical (bottom 13%)

- Tied for 13th out of 13 in the broad jump (bottom 15%)

I'm not going to go through and calculate the height for every player, but he would probably rank about 6th or 7th out of 18. So basically he is probably 1-1.5" taller than average and a hair faster than average. He's also really slender for a potential #1 WR and his 40 time should probably be viewed through that lens since he's not carrying as much weight as most of these guys. I tend to view speed and BMI as being inversely related in the sense that thinner players will tend to run faster times and heavier players will tend to run slower times. From that perspective, his 6th best 40 time as the 17th thickest player is perhaps even a little disappointing.

The jumps are flat out bad, ranking near the bottom of the sample and well below the averages.

Overall, it's probably pretty fair to say that his athleticism is well off the mark for an elite WR1. Thin frame. Average speed. Below average explosiveness. The only concrete positive is height. Plenty of these other players have that and more.

Taken as a whole, he doesn't have even average athletic traits for an NFL WR1. Spin it however you want.

EBF you changed your argument at some point from a BMI of 26 being the cutoff to a BMI of 27.8. The fact is that's the "average" BMI of elite WR. There are several WR at the elite level that are below that average. I mean Brandon Marshall is below that average.

 

[EBF]

EBF you changed your argument at some point from a BMI of 26 being the cutoff to a BMI of 27.8. The fact is that's the "average" BMI of elite WR. There are several WR at the elite level that are below that average. I mean Brandon Marshall is below that average.

The cutoff is based on the sample of current NFL WRs who I personally define as elite. AJ Green is the thinnest of the group. He also has the lowest vertical of the group. Brandon Marshall has the lowest broad jump of the group. Dez Bryant has the slowest 40 of the group. Hence the cutoffs.

But all that's really saying is that this particular measurement is the lowest found in any one single elite NFL WR. It's not a concrete line beyond which nobody could ever succeed. In fact, if you threw Anquan Boldin into the mix then a lot of the cutoffs would be skewed.

That exercise was less about defining concrete cutoffs and more about trying to develop an understanding of what a prototypical NFL WR1 looks like in terms of the athletic measurables. To that end, I think it's more productive to look at the averages than the extremes. Matthews is very close to AJ Green, but that's just the problem. Compared to the field of elite NFL WR1s, AJ Green is a very underwhelming measurables athlete. Thin frame. Mediocre speed. Poor vertical.

If you compare either player to the average, he looks pretty underwhelming. As I already mentioned, Green was rated as an elite prospect despite that, suggesting that teams saw elite potential despite his poor measurables. Matthews was not. So really there's nothing on paper that says "elite" talent. All points that I've made several times in this thread. If you don't by them by now, you probably never will.

I'd also add one more time that his speed and other measurables should be viewed in the context of his thin frame. He has pretty good speed, but then again he's not carrying much weight. Others like Andre Johnson, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, and Vincent Jackson have run faster on bigger frames and to me that's an important difference to make note of.

 

[ShaHBucks]

EBF you changed your argument at some point from a BMI of 26 being the cutoff to a BMI of 27.8. The fact is that's the "average" BMI of elite WR. There are several WR at the elite level that are below that average. I mean Brandon Marshall is below that average.

The cutoff is based on the sample of current NFL WRs who I personally define as elite. AJ Green is the thinnest of the group. He also has the lowest vertical of the group. Brandon Marshall has the lowest broad jump of the group. Dez Bryant has the slowest 40 of the group. Hence the cutoffs.

But all that's really saying is that this particular measurement is the lowest found in any one single elite NFL WR. It's not a concrete line beyond which nobody could ever succeed. In fact, if you threw Anquan Boldin into the mix then a lot of the cutoffs would be skewed.

That exercise was less about defining concrete cutoffs and more about trying to develop an understanding of what a prototypical NFL WR1 looks like in terms of the athletic measurables. To that end, I think it's more productive to look at the averages than the extremes. Matthews is very close to AJ Green, but that's just the problem. Compared to the field of elite NFL WR1s, AJ Green is a very underwhelming measurables athlete. Thin frame. Mediocre speed. Poor vertical.

If you compare either player to the average, he looks pretty underwhelming. As I already mentioned, Green was rated as an elite prospect despite that, suggesting that teams saw elite potential despite his poor measurables. Matthews was not. So really there's nothing on paper that says "elite" talent. All points that I've made several times in this thread. If you don't by them by now, you probably never will.

I'd also add one more time that his speed and other measurables should be viewed in the context of his thin frame. He has pretty good speed, but then again he's not carrying much weight. Others like Andre Johnson, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, and Vincent Jackson have run faster on bigger frames and to me that's an important difference to make note of.

The same happens when you add Julio and Calvin. Means, or averages are prone to being distorted by outliners. What you're saying can be statistically correct and grossly misleading at the sametime. That's what some of us are getting at. You also don't factor in other significant stats like arm length, hand size, production ect.. That allows much more room for error.

 

[EBF]

EBF you changed your argument at some point from a BMI of 26 being the cutoff to a BMI of 27.8. The fact is that's the "average" BMI of elite WR. There are several WR at the elite level that are below that average. I mean Brandon Marshall is below that average.

The cutoff is based on the sample of current NFL WRs who I personally define as elite. AJ Green is the thinnest of the group. He also has the lowest vertical of the group. Brandon Marshall has the lowest broad jump of the group. Dez Bryant has the slowest 40 of the group. Hence the cutoffs.

But all that's really saying is that this particular measurement is the lowest found in any one single elite NFL WR. It's not a concrete line beyond which nobody could ever succeed. In fact, if you threw Anquan Boldin into the mix then a lot of the cutoffs would be skewed.

That exercise was less about defining concrete cutoffs and more about trying to develop an understanding of what a prototypical NFL WR1 looks like in terms of the athletic measurables. To that end, I think it's more productive to look at the averages than the extremes. Matthews is very close to AJ Green, but that's just the problem. Compared to the field of elite NFL WR1s, AJ Green is a very underwhelming measurables athlete. Thin frame. Mediocre speed. Poor vertical.

If you compare either player to the average, he looks pretty underwhelming. As I already mentioned, Green was rated as an elite prospect despite that, suggesting that teams saw elite potential despite his poor measurables. Matthews was not. So really there's nothing on paper that says "elite" talent. All points that I've made several times in this thread. If you don't by them by now, you probably never will.

I'd also add one more time that his speed and other measurables should be viewed in the context of his thin frame. He has pretty good speed, but then again he's not carrying much weight. Others like Andre Johnson, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, and Vincent Jackson have run faster on bigger frames and to me that's an important difference to make note of.

The same happens when you add Julio and Calvin. Means, or averages are prone to being distorted by outliners. What you're saying can be statistically correct and grossly misleading at the sametime. That's what some of us are getting at.You also don't factor in other significant stats like arm length, hand size, production ect.. That allows much more room for error.

There are enough red flags with his draft position and measurables to make a very strong case that he's not an elite prospect, but ultimately people will see what they want to see. The discussion in this thread is a testament to that. I could write 100 posts detailing my opinion and none of them will resonate with people who have already made up their mind. It's not really interesting to me anymore. I've laid out my thoughts pretty thoroughly and I'm satisfied with that.

Bottom line is that he's a second round pick with ho-hum physical tools. Doesn't have the draft slot of an elite prospect, the physical tools of an elite prospect, or a good excuse for sliding in the draft. The story taken as a whole doesn't indicate special potential, but it also doesn't rule out the possibility of him being a nice "right player, right situation" guy for a few years. Seems straightforward to me, but like I said earlier his fans are an especially zealous bunch.

 

[squistion]

There are enough red flags with his draft position and measurables to make a very strong case that he's not an elite prospect, but ultimately people will see what they want to see. The discussion in this thread is a testament to that. I could write 100 posts detailing my opinion and none of them will resonate with people who have already made up their mind. It's not really interesting to me anymore. I've laid out my thoughts pretty thoroughly and I'm satisfied with that.

Bottom line is that he's a second round pick with ho-hum physical tools. Doesn't have the draft slot of an elite prospect, the physical tools of an elite prospect, or a good excuse for sliding in the draft. The story taken as a whole doesn't indicate special potential, but it also doesn't rule out the possibility of him being a nice "right player, right situation" guy for a few years. Seems straightforward to me, but like I said earlier his fans are an especially zealous bunch.

One can only hope.

 

[ShaHBucks]

EBF you changed your argument at some point from a BMI of 26 being the cutoff to a BMI of 27.8. The fact is that's the "average" BMI of elite WR. There are several WR at the elite level that are below that average. I mean Brandon Marshall is below that average.

The cutoff is based on the sample of current NFL WRs who I personally define as elite. AJ Green is the thinnest of the group. He also has the lowest vertical of the group. Brandon Marshall has the lowest broad jump of the group. Dez Bryant has the slowest 40 of the group. Hence the cutoffs.

But all that's really saying is that this particular measurement is the lowest found in any one single elite NFL WR. It's not a concrete line beyond which nobody could ever succeed. In fact, if you threw Anquan Boldin into the mix then a lot of the cutoffs would be skewed.

That exercise was less about defining concrete cutoffs and more about trying to develop an understanding of what a prototypical NFL WR1 looks like in terms of the athletic measurables. To that end, I think it's more productive to look at the averages than the extremes. Matthews is very close to AJ Green, but that's just the problem. Compared to the field of elite NFL WR1s, AJ Green is a very underwhelming measurables athlete. Thin frame. Mediocre speed. Poor vertical.

If you compare either player to the average, he looks pretty underwhelming. As I already mentioned, Green was rated as an elite prospect despite that, suggesting that teams saw elite potential despite his poor measurables. Matthews was not. So really there's nothing on paper that says "elite" talent. All points that I've made several times in this thread. If you don't by them by now, you probably never will.

I'd also add one more time that his speed and other measurables should be viewed in the context of his thin frame. He has pretty good speed, but then again he's not carrying much weight. Others like Andre Johnson, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, and Vincent Jackson have run faster on bigger frames and to me that's an important difference to make note of.

The same happens when you add Julio and Calvin. Means, or averages are prone to being distorted by outliners. What you're saying can be statistically correct and grossly misleading at the sametime. That's what some of us are getting at.You also don't factor in other significant stats like arm length, hand size, production ect.. That allows much more room for error.

There are enough red flags with his draft position and measurables to make a very strong case that he's not an elite prospect, but ultimately people will see what they want to see. The discussion in this thread is a testament to that. I could write 100 posts detailing my opinion and none of them will resonate with people who have already made up their mind. It's not really interesting to me anymore. I've laid out my thoughts pretty thoroughly and I'm satisfied with that.

Bottom line is that he's a second round pick with ho-hum physical tools. Doesn't have the draft slot of an elite prospect, the physical tools of an elite prospect, or a good excuse for sliding in the draft. The story taken as a whole doesn't indicate special potential, but it also doesn't rule out the possibility of him being a nice "right player, right situation" guy for a few years. Seems straightforward to me, but like I said earlier his fans are an especially zealous bunch.

Red Flags? Milkman stated that Matthews falls within the standard deviation of "your" numbers. I can see if any of his measurements were dangerously low (Sammy Watkins perhaps?) but they aren't. There isn't much reason for anyone who like him to change their mind based on that. It's back to well blocked screen passes and busted coverage

 

[werdnoynek]

As EBF as said repeatedly, there's nothing elite - as a prospect - about him. It's a completely reasonable and rational way to look at him and it seems people are just getting worked up over that word elite. Not being elite doesn't mean being non-productive, it's just that the ceiling is limited. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

He's done nothing but run in shorts since being drafted... something he seems to excel at. Let's watch him play at game speed and see how much his work ethic and "know-how" helps mask his deficiencies in physicality against aggressive corners. If he's really the technician and give-it-all guy he seems to be on the practice field, he could be a top 20 guy in that offense. But to peg him over an elite prospect like Watkins is just silly.

ETA: He lacks "it" but everyone needs a WR2 too.

 

[ShaHBucks]

As EBF as said repeatedly, there's nothing elite - as a prospect - about him. It's a completely reasonable and rational way to look at him and it seems people are just getting worked up over that word elite. Not being elite doesn't mean being non-productive, it's just that the ceiling is limited. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

He's done nothing but run in shorts since being drafted... something he seems to excel at. Let's watch him play at game speed and see how much his work ethic and "know-how" helps mask his deficiencies in physicality against aggressive corners. If he's really the technician and give-it-all guy he seems to be on the practice field, he could be a top 20 guy in that offense. But to peg him over and elite prospect like Watkins is just silly.

ETA: He lacks "it" but everyone needs a WR2 too.

Watkins isn't in the range of elite players based on EBF's cutoffs. Jordan Matthews actually is, hence the confusion.

 

[werdnoynek]

As EBF as said repeatedly, there's nothing elite - as a prospect - about him. It's a completely reasonable and rational way to look at him and it seems people are just getting worked up over that word elite. Not being elite doesn't mean being non-productive, it's just that the ceiling is limited. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

He's done nothing but run in shorts since being drafted... something he seems to excel at. Let's watch him play at game speed and see how much his work ethic and "know-how" helps mask his deficiencies in physicality against aggressive corners. If he's really the technician and give-it-all guy he seems to be on the practice field, he could be a top 20 guy in that offense. But to peg him over and elite prospect like Watkins is just silly.

ETA: He lacks "it" but everyone needs a WR2 too.

Watkins isn't in the range of elite players based on EBF's cutoffs. Jordan Matthews actually is, hence the confusion.

I guess I couldn't care less what EBF's cutoffs are. I just don't see it on the field.

 

[EBF]

As EBF as said repeatedly, there's nothing elite - as a prospect - about him. It's a completely reasonable and rational way to look at him and it seems people are just getting worked up over that word elite. Not being elite doesn't mean being non-productive, it's just that the ceiling is limited. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

He's done nothing but run in shorts since being drafted... something he seems to excel at. Let's watch him play at game speed and see how much his work ethic and "know-how" helps mask his deficiencies in physicality against aggressive corners. If he's really the technician and give-it-all guy he seems to be on the practice field, he could be a top 20 guy in that offense. But to peg him over and elite prospect like Watkins is just silly.

ETA: He lacks "it" but everyone needs a WR2 too.

Watkins isn't in the range of elite players based on EBF's cutoffs. Jordan Matthews actually is, hence the confusion.

I said I was done with this thread, but since now you're putting words in my mouth...

Watkins has a better case for being a prototypical #1 in terms of his physical tools. 34" vertical is an eye sore and the one thing that really makes you scratch your head, but the 10'5" broad jump is close to average compared to that group of elite prospects. Where he really shines is his size/speed combo. A 4.39 40 at a 28.0 BMI is criminal speed. Of the guys in the 28 BMI range above, only Calvin at 4.35 was faster. Even Andre Johnson at 4.41 was slower. Julio had a better time at 4.34 and much better marks overall, but was a hair thinner. Overall, it's a freaky bulk/speed combo for a WR.

I actually thought Watkins was a little underwhelming at the combine, but he at least has some elite athletic traits. Matthews has none and wasn't treated as an elite draft commodity by the league, whereas the Bills essentially gave up two firsts for Sammy. Pretty significant differences.

 

[Milkman]

Watkins didn't run a 4.39 at the combine. Plus you can't give him a pass on his jumps and then hammer Matthews for his. Watkins weight is nice but he's on the short side as well.

Watkins jumps are particularly concerning considering how much shorter he is than Matthews. Watkins is supposed to have other worldly explosive traits. I have a higher vert than Watkins. Lolololol

 

[jurb26]

Watkins didn't run a 4.39 at the combine. Plus you can't give him a pass on his jumps and then hammer Matthews for his. Watkins weight is nice but he's on the short side as well.

Watkins jumps are particularly concerning considering how much shorter he is than Matthews. Watkins is supposed to have other worldly explosive traits. I have a higher vert than Watkins. Lolololol

Right. Watkins ran a 4.43 40, not 4.39.

 

[jurb26]

EBF you changed your argument at some point from a BMI of 26 being the cutoff to a BMI of 27.8. The fact is that's the "average" BMI of elite WR. There are several WR at the elite level that are below that average. I mean Brandon Marshall is below that average.

The cutoff is based on the sample of current NFL WRs who I personally define as elite.

So you're subjective opinion is being used as the baseline for the numbers you are presenting as facts?Crabtree is elite? Really? DJax isn't? Gordon isn't? A. Brown isn't?

 

[renesauz]

Scared I won't get him at 1.09 anymore

You won't. He's steadily risen from the 1.10 area to the 1.4 area

 

[renesauz]

Perhaps the word "elite" is the problem. If by elite EBF is only including the 3 or 4 WR megastars, then the whole argument is a waste of time. Expand "elite" to the top 10 or 12 (WR1's), it's a different argument entirely. Most of us are looking for fantasy WR1 potential outside the top 2 or 3 draft sots, and Mathews has that in spades.

Nobody arguing for Mathews is expecting Calvin Johnson- we're looking for Michael Crabtree, Keenan Allen, or Antonio Brown.

 

[Khy]

Scared I won't get him at 1.09 anymore

You won't. He's steadily risen from the 1.10 area to the 1.4 area

Trying to think of other guys that this has happened with... like guys who were originally late first or early 2nd round picks that slowly rose to the top by mid-June. How did that work out? Last season, I saw Johnathan Franklin go several times in the 1.05-1.08 area in my later dynasty drafts. Same thing with Marcus Lattimore. 2012, I think the most obvious would be David Wilson. He skyrocketed up the boards and was going as high as 1.03 in some leagues. Any others that ring in peoples minds?

 

[Bigboy10182000]

@LesBowen: Jordan Matthews is putting the "Ohhhh!!" In Eagles OTAs: http://t.co/CqJkGm00ch via @phillydotcom

Eagles rookie Matthews catching praise

BY LES BOWEN

SO FAR, Jordan Matthews is the star of Eagles' organized team activities.

We could spend the next several paragraphs issuing disclaimers about practicing without pads and/or contact, and about how much Chip Kelly feels his 6-3, 212-pound, second-round rookie wide receiver from Vanderbilt still needs to learn, but that would be kind of boring. We'll get to all that later. First, here's what NFL Network analyst Brian Baldinger had to say after watching Matthews yesterday, on a steamy afternoon in South Philly that saw Matthews catch four passes in a row during a seven-on-seven drill.

"I think you just have to look at everything about him - the size, the character, the person. You can see him being successful here," said Baldinger, a former Eagles offensive lineman. "There's something special about the kid . . . I think what we've seen this offseason is that divas don't win championships, and this kid I think is about as far away from a diva as there is."

(Gosh, whatever could Baldy be referencing?)

"It's just a matter of time before the rhythm, the groove, the game-planning just falls his way . . . He couldn't have gone to a better place. The quarterback, the structure, the stability here . . . He's going to get a chance to catch a lot of passes in the next 4 years."

He caught quite a few yesterday.

"I don't know if I've been around a rookie that can work like that," said quarterback Mark Sanchez, who runs the second-team unit, where Matthews usually practices. "He caught four balls in a row in that seven-on period. The coach is yelling at him to finish the last play and he sprints down to the goal line, about 60 yards. I know he was gassed. He's one of those guys who doesn't say much, just comes in and works hard and asks a ton of questions."

Sanchez noted that this was one of the first days he hasn't thrown with Matthews after practice. As Sanchez spoke, Matthews was still on the field, working with fellow rookie wideout Quron Pratt, from Palmyra and Rutgers.

"Anything that doesn't look right in practice, [Matthews] wants it again," Sanchez said.

"He definitely knows his stuff. He's an intelligent player who definitely gets the offense, doesn't have a whole lot of mental mistakes," QB Matt Barkley said. "As a quarterback to a receiver, that always gives you confidence. He may not be the quickest guy out there, but you know where he'll be . . . you can count on him. He's impressed a lot of people so far."

"Sneaky speed," safety Earl Wolff said. "You would think with how he runs, he's a long guy" who would have a loping stride, but "he's pretty fast, pretty explosive. Catches basically everything you throw at him."

We can begin the disclaimer process with Matthews himself. Is he impressed or surprised at how much he has stood out during OTAs?

"Not really. I just feel like, when you play wide receiver and you're in OTAs, there's not a lot of hitting. The defensive guys aren't going to be able to showcase too much what they can do, you gotta get the pads on, let them hit," Matthews said. "The running backs, you know, I can't wait [until] we get pads on so people can see what [rookies] Henry Josey and David Fluellen can do out there. It's just the timing right now, the ball's going to be in the air a lot, I'm trying to make the most of those opportunities."

In other words, OTAs are naturally a wideout showcase, with no man-press coverage or hitting, and there might be rookies at other positions who would stand out more if this were real football. But that doesn't quite explain how it is that Matthews seems to outperform all of the other wideouts, not just the other rookies, in sessions reporters have been allowed to watch.

Last week, he was working more in the slot; yesterday, he seemed to work more outside. Either place, you notice him, and how quickly he seems to have made himself at home in Kelly's offense.

"There's still a lot of nuances in it I'm still trying to figure out," Matthews said. "I just try to keep going back, every single day, and constantly just repeat. Any things I think I know, I still like to go over those plays, draw 'em in my head."

Kelly has praised Matthews extensively this spring, but yesterday he seemed to want to keep expectations grounded.

First, Kelly gave us an Andy Reidesque, "Jordan has done a nice job," noting that all the rookies are still getting acclimated with the schemes.

"You get great effort and a consistent approach on a daily basis from what he gives you," Kelly said. "So we're really excited about him. But right now, he's still just acting like a rookie."

When Matthews came off the field yesterday - he was one of the last players to head for the locker room - Baldinger told him how impressed he'd been with Matthews in a Vanderbilt-Missouri game Baldinger watched in preparation for the draft.

"Vanderbilt threw a pick on the first series or the second series of the game. [Matthews] came out of nowhere and just crushed this guy," ending the interception return, Baldinger recalled.

Baldinger reiterated a point Eagles officials have made - you don't become the SEC's all-time leading receiver, playing for a Vanderbilt team that lacks other weapons, against defenses designed to stop you, without having a special drive.

"You gotta keep rolling, no matter what," Matthews said.

What does he tell the folks back home, when they ask what Kelly's fastbreak practices are like?

"I tell 'em I love it," he said. "I tell 'em I'm in the best opportunity in the NFL. I know there were receivers that went before me [in the draft], but I couldn't have wished for a better spot."

 

[BigSteelThrill]

safety Earl Wolff said. "...Catches basically everything you throw at him."

Jordan Matthews WR Vanderbilt

Hands, hands, hands.

 

[jurb26]

Scared I won't get him at 1.09 anymore

You won't. He's steadily risen from the 1.10 area to the 1.4 area

Trying to think of other guys that this has happened with... like guys who were originally late first or early 2nd round picks that slowly rose to the top by mid-June. How did that work out? Last season, I saw Johnathan Franklin go several times in the 1.05-1.08 area in my later dynasty drafts. Same thing with Marcus Lattimore. 2012, I think the most obvious would be David Wilson. He skyrocketed up the boards and was going as high as 1.03 in some leagues. Any others that ring in peoples minds?

I see the point you're making, but I'm not sure the parallels are the same between RBs and WRs. Mathews isn't a guy I've liked a great deal, see earlier in the thread. Also, his price is getting a bit high IMO. None the less, I'm certainly softening to the idea that he could be in line for a decent outlook in Philly. The fact of the matter is that he showed to be more Thletic than I expected at the combine. That's perhaps marginal because I don't think he uses his athleticism to its full potential on the field. What's more encouraging is his seemingly strong work ethic and desire to become a solid pro. I like the landing spot of Philly and think its about as good. Spot as he could have hoped for.

 

[Milkman]

Scared I won't get him at 1.09 anymore

You won't. He's steadily risen from the 1.10 area to the 1.4 area

Trying to think of other guys that this has happened with... like guys who were originally late first or early 2nd round picks that slowly rose to the top by mid-June. How did that work out? Last season, I saw Johnathan Franklin go several times in the 1.05-1.08 area in my later dynasty drafts. Same thing with Marcus Lattimore. 2012, I think the most obvious would be David Wilson. He skyrocketed up the boards and was going as high as 1.03 in some leagues. Any others that ring in peoples minds?

I see the point you're making, but I'm not sure the parallels are the same between RBs and WRs.Mathews isn't a guy I've liked a great deal, see earlier in the thread. Also, his price is getting a bit high IMO. None the less, I'm certainly softening to the idea that he could be in line for a decent outlook in Philly. The fact of the matter is that he showed to be more Thletic than I expected at the combine. That's perhaps marginal because I don't think he uses his athleticism to its full potential on the field. What's more encouraging is his seemingly strong work ethic and desire to become a solid pro. I like the landing spot of Philly and think its about as good. Spot as he could have hoped for.

If you think he's the best WR in this class his price is still not to high but the secret is out. He's going to get drafted in front of a few first round WR's now.

 

[Milkman]

safety Earl Wolff said. "...Catches basically everything you throw at him."

Jordan Matthews WR Vanderbilt

Hands, hands, hands.

So much for the meh hands. It was silly anyway. Pretty obvious his hands are elite.

 

[WagesOfZin]

so can the discussion about BMI go away now?

 

[jurb26]

so can the discussion about BMI go away now?

It should, but it won't.

 

[Monsters of the Midway]

Scared I won't get him at 1.09 anymore

You won't. He's steadily risen from the 1.10 area to the 1.4 area

He went at 1.04 in my rookie draft, FWIW (started May 15th)

 

[jurb26]

Scared I won't get him at 1.09 anymore

You won't. He's steadily risen from the 1.10 area to the 1.4 area

He went at 1.04 in my rookie draft, FWIW (started May 15th)

This just seems crazy to me.

 

[Jrodicus]

Scared I won't get him at 1.09 anymore

You won't. He's steadily risen from the 1.10 area to the 1.4 area

FWIW, I saved DLF's rookie rankings just before the draft started. I did this so that I could compare their rankings before and after the draft to see how much draft position and landing spot affects their rankings. I also look for players with a big gap in their talent evaltuation between the fantasy world and real-world (a la Seastrunk, who was considered a top 10 prospect before the NFL draft by many in the fantasy wolrd).

Anyway, Matthews was ranked 4th, 7th, 8th, 20th, and 20th by the 5 rankers at DLF before the NFL draft; his average of 11.8 put him as their #11 prospect. one of the guys who ranked him 20th had Seastrunk as his #3 prospect.

He is now their number 7 prospect, having passed Lee, Robinson, Hyde, and Seastrunk. There are now 8 ranks for him; 7 of those have him from 4th to 9th, but one guy has him ranked 25th (that ranker also has Garoppolo at #5). The 2 rankers that had him at #20 predraft now have him at 5th and 9th.

Once Watkins and Evans are off the board, any one of Cooks, OBJ, Sankey, Ebron, and Matthews are fair game.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Scared I won't get him at 1.09 anymore

You won't. He's steadily risen from the 1.10 area to the 1.4 area

FWIW, I saved DLF's rookie rankings just before the draft started. I did this so that I could compare their rankings before and after the draft to see how much draft position and landing spot affects their rankings. I also look for players with a big gap in their talent evaltuation between the fantasy world and real-world (a la Seastrunk, who was considered a top 10 prospect before the NFL draft by many in the fantasy wolrd).

Anyway, Matthews was ranked 4th, 7th, 8th, 20th, and 20th by the 5 rankers at DLF before the NFL draft; his average of 11.8 put him as their #11 prospect. one of the guys who ranked him 20th had Seastrunk as his #3 prospect.

He is now their number 7 prospect, having passed Lee, Robinson, Hyde, and Seastrunk. There are now 8 ranks for him; 7 of those have him from 4th to 9th, but one guy has him ranked 25th (that ranker also has Garoppolo at #5). The 2 rankers that had him at #20 predraft now have him at 5th and 9th.

Once Watkins and Evans are off the board, any one of Cooks, OBJ, Sankey, Ebron, and Matthews are fair game.

Nice post. ty

 

[Khy]

safety Earl Wolff said. "...Catches basically everything you throw at him."

Jordan Matthews WR Vanderbilt

Hands, hands, hands.

So much for the meh hands. It was silly anyway. Pretty obvious his hands are elite.

Who was knocking his hands? That was never the issue with the guy in my eyes. My issue with him was he is a very "blah" athlete who isn't very good at either a) separating from coverage or b) using his height to create separation. He's not the best route runner, not the fastest guy and while he's tall at 6'3" his vertical leaves A LOT to be desired at a rather weak 35.5" jump. Mike Evans is about 2" taller and almost 20 lbs heavier and beats him out by 2" in his vertical. It's possible he becomes a good possession receiver but in my opinion he has very little big play ability.

EDIT: Forgot to include, his arms are pretty small for someone his size. 33.25" arms aren't that impressive. By comparison Evans (who is only 2 inches taller) measures in at 35 1/8", nearly 2 full inches more in his arms. Combine that with the vertical jump differentials as well and Evans is nearly 8 effective inches taller than Matthews. Also O'Dell Beckham Jr who is only 5'11" (4" shorter than Matthews) has 32 3/4" arms. Only 1/2 and inch less than Matthews and his vertical comes in at 38.5" (3" higher than Matthews) making Beckham an effective half an inch shorter than Matthews in size. Difference being that Beckham has better hands and is significantly more athletic and an unmeasurable amount better at creating separation than Matthews. I've seen Matthews go earlier than OBJ in a lot of drafts and I'll gladly take OBJ every time if the guy sitting at 1.03/1.04 wants to select Matthews instead.

 

[Milkman]

safety Earl Wolff said. "...Catches basically everything you throw at him."

Jordan Matthews WR Vanderbilt

Hands, hands, hands.

So much for the meh hands. It was silly anyway. Pretty obvious his hands are elite.

Who was knocking his hands? That was never the issue with the guy in my eyes. My issue with him was he is a very "blah" athlete who isn't very good at either a) separating from coverage or b) using his height to create separation. He's not the best route runner, not the fastest guy and while he's tall at 6'3" his vertical leaves A LOT to be desired at a rather weak 35.5" jump. Mike Evans is about 2" taller and almost 20 lbs heavier and beats him out by 2" in his vertical. It's possible he becomes a good possession receiver but in my opinion he has very little big play ability.

EDIT: Forgot to include, his arms are pretty small for someone his size. 33.25" arms aren't that impressive. By comparison Evans (who is only 2 inches taller) measures in at 35 1/8", nearly 2 full inches more in his arms. Combine that with the vertical jump differentials as well and Evans is nearly 8 effective inches taller than Matthews. Also O'Dell Beckham Jr who is only 5'11" (4" shorter than Matthews) has 32 3/4" arms. Only 1/2 and inch less than Matthews and his vertical comes in at 38.5" (3" higher than Matthews) making Beckham an effective half an inch shorter than Matthews in size. Difference being that Beckham has better hands and is significantly more athletic and an unmeasurable amount better at creating separation than Matthews. I've seen Matthews go earlier than OBJ in a lot of drafts and I'll gladly take OBJ every time if the guy sitting at 1.03/1.04 wants to select Matthews instead.

Check this very thread for people calling Mathews hands in to question. Matthews is a great route runner. He ran a 4.46 and his vert was higher than all world athlete Sammy Watkins. Really he is an above average athlete across the board with great hands and an incredible work ethic. I do agree with you though as far as reach, height, and vert. Evans is my #1 WR and Matthews is my #2. Beckham sucks but that's another topic all together. Give me the taller bigger WR with the lower vert every time.

 

[WagesOfZin]

this is what i don't understand. the guy has a history of producing and has undisputed IQ, football IQ, and work ethic. once again.....he has a well established history of production. now that he's in OTAs, he's getting more chatter, by a good margin, than any other rookie WR across the league.

yet, it keeps going back to "but BMI!! but arm length!! but vert!! but! but! but! let me find another measureable!"

do you want to be right, or do you want to get it right? me personally, i want to get it right. what has he done and what is he currently doing? producing (well, as much as you can "produce" in OTAs).

 

[Phenix]

this is what i don't understand. the guy has a history of producing and has undisputed IQ, football IQ, and work ethic. once again.....he has a well established history of production. now that he's in OTAs, he's getting more chatter, by a good margin, than any other rookie WR across the league.

yet, it keeps going back to "but BMI!! but arm length!! but vert!! but! but! but! let me find another measureable!"

do you want to be right, or do you want to get it right? me personally, i want to get it right. what has he done and what is he currently doing? producing (well, as much as you can "produce" in OTAs).

LOVE THAT LINE!

Matthews has a world of talent and I like his ability, but is he really anymore likely to be a stud than Benjamin, Lee or even Beckham? Maybe, all these guys are in the same tier for me. They are all rookies who have proved nothing in the NFL and all are getting hyped by their beat writers, it happens every year. I may draft players but I never buy rookie hype until they prove it on the field...NEVER. Mathews may have been taken higher than Lee and Benjamin and behind guys like Beckham in some leagues but they are all the same right now.

 

[Khy]

this is what i don't understand. the guy has a history of producing and has undisputed IQ, football IQ, and work ethic. once again.....he has a well established history of production. now that he's in OTAs, he's getting more chatter, by a good margin, than any other rookie WR across the league.

yet, it keeps going back to "but BMI!! but arm length!! but vert!! but! but! but! let me find another measureable!"

do you want to be right, or do you want to get it right? me personally, i want to get it right. what has he done and what is he currently doing? producing (well, as much as you can "produce" in OTAs).

This is just a difference of opinions, that's really all it is... to you his production history is relevant. To me? I look at it and see he had two good games against ranked teams the last 2 seasons (unless I'm missing one and one of the teams was ranked and fell out of the rankings). The rest of his production came against scrubs. And yes, I understand not everything is about who you played... Calvin didn't play at a 5 star school either. Saying "Do you wanna be right?" implies that you're point is not a debatable one. From pick like 1.03 - 1.12 any of these guys have a shot at being better than the other. Me personally? I don't think Matthews is a better prospect or in a better situation (or a combination of the two) than OBJ, Brandin Cooks or Cody Latimer. Which means at the absolute EARLIEST I'm taking Matthews at 1.06, and I'm still probably taking Hyde or Ebron higher than him. And maybe even Sankey higher than him if I'm in a more 'win now' mode where I could get good use out of the 1-2 year production with small ceiling I believe Sankey possesses. Meaning I'm likely not taking him till 1.08-1.09 in a draft. That's my opinion, but it's not wrong... we have no idea whose opinion is wrong on him. But one of us has to be.

 

[WagesOfZin]

my point is most definitely debatable, hence my desire to "get it right", not "be right."

at the same time, my impression of this thread to this point is you have a group of people that say matthews belongs in the conversation and a group that says he doesn't. the group that says he doesn't seem to rehash, over and over, points about his weight, 40 time, average duration of sustained urine stream, etc. to base their argument on while repetitively disregarding any on the field evidence that contradicts their position. i'm not saying there aren't some in the thread that are in the "dude's a stud, period" camp, but at this point where players have been drafted and are in OTAs and mini camps i could really care less about pre draft BMI or any other measureable for that matter. either you can play or you can't. joique bell's measurables were abysmal coming out of college and he didn't get drafted. his production coming out of wayne state on the other hand....and i think we can all agree that joique can play. from this point forward, the only thing that is relevant for all of these rookies is "can they play?".

 

[Jrodicus]

this is what i don't understand. the guy has a history of producing and has undisputed IQ, football IQ, and work ethic. once again.....he has a well established history of production. now that he's in OTAs, he's getting more chatter, by a good margin, than any other rookie WR across the league.

yet, it keeps going back to "but BMI!! but arm length!! but vert!! but! but! but! let me find another measureable!"

do you want to be right, or do you want to get it right? me personally, i want to get it right. what has he done and what is he currently doing? producing (well, as much as you can "produce" in OTAs).

LOVE THAT LINE!

Matthews has a world of talent and I like his ability, but is he really anymore likely to be a stud than Benjamin, Lee or even Beckham? Maybe, all these guys are in the same tier for me. They are all rookies who have proved nothing in the NFL and all are getting hyped by their beat writers, it happens every year. I may draft players but I never buy rookie hype until they prove it on the field...NEVER. Mathews may have been taken higher than Lee and Benjamin and behind guys like Beckham in some leagues but they are all the same right now.

I can understand not buying beat-writers' hype. However, every rookie is unproven at this point.

As far as the bolded...I think he does.

I think Benjamin will benefit from lack of competition and could get a lot of TDs for a rookie...but I don't know if he will be a focal point of that offense.

Lee...I personally am not all that high on him. I think he was over-hyped in college, and I hate the landing spot. Maybe that team turns it around, but they've been a mess lately.

I do like OBJ. I don't know if the Giants are ready to give up on Randle yet, and I've read some things about tweaks to the offense that affect the communication between QB and WR on reading the defense (the thought being that was responsible for a lot of the incompletions thrown Randle's direction). OBJ could be the WR2 there by the end of the year, or he could be stuck as the #3 for a few years.

Mathews landed on a team that runs a lot of plays in general and quick plays specifically. There should be a lot of volume there, which bodes well in ppr. His main competition is Riley Cooper and a guy coming off injury in Maclin.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

this is what i don't understand. the guy has a history of producing and has undisputed IQ, football IQ, and work ethic. once again.....he has a well established history of production. now that he's in OTAs, he's getting more chatter, by a good margin, than any other rookie WR across the league.

yet, it keeps going back to "but BMI!! but arm length!! but vert!! but! but! but! let me find another measureable!"

do you want to be right, or do you want to get it right? me personally, i want to get it right. what has he done and what is he currently doing? producing (well, as much as you can "produce" in OTAs).

LOVE THAT LINE!

Matthews has a world of talent and I like his ability, but is he really anymore likely to be a stud than Benjamin, Lee or even Beckham? Maybe, all these guys are in the same tier for me. They are all rookies who have proved nothing in the NFL and all are getting hyped by their beat writers, it happens every year. I may draft players but I never buy rookie hype until they prove it on the field...NEVER. Mathews may have been taken higher than Lee and Benjamin and behind guys like Beckham in some leagues but they are all the same right now.

I can understand not buying beat-writers' hype. However, every rookie is unproven at this point.

As far as the bolded...I think he does.

I think Benjamin will benefit from lack of competition and could get a lot of TDs for a rookie...but I don't know if he will be a focal point of that offense.

Lee...I personally am not all that high on him. I think he was over-hyped in college, and I hate the landing spot. Maybe that team turns it around, but they've been a mess lately.

I do like OBJ. I don't know if the Giants are ready to give up on Randle yet, and I've read some things about tweaks to the offense that affect the communication between QB and WR on reading the defense (the thought being that was responsible for a lot of the incompletions thrown Randle's direction). OBJ could be the WR2 there by the end of the year, or he could be stuck as the #3 for a few years.

Mathews landed on a team that runs a lot of plays in general and quick plays specifically. There should be a lot of volume there, which bodes well in ppr. His main competition is Riley Cooper and a guy coming off injury in Maclin.

Lines like the bolded need to hold a LOT more weight in here IMO. Injuries aside Matthews has a legit shot at flat out being his team's #1 WR by season's end.

 

[Milkman]

this is what i don't understand. the guy has a history of producing and has undisputed IQ, football IQ, and work ethic. once again.....he has a well established history of production. now that he's in OTAs, he's getting more chatter, by a good margin, than any other rookie WR across the league.

yet, it keeps going back to "but BMI!! but arm length!! but vert!! but! but! but! let me find another measureable!"

do you want to be right, or do you want to get it right? me personally, i want to get it right. what has he done and what is he currently doing? producing (well, as much as you can "produce" in OTAs).

This is just a difference of opinions, that's really all it is... to you his production history is relevant. To me? I look at it and see he had two good games against ranked teams the last 2 seasons (unless I'm missing one and one of the teams was ranked and fell out of the rankings). The rest of his production came against scrubs. And yes, I understand not everything is about who you played... Calvin didn't play at a 5 star school either. Saying "Do you wanna be right?" implies that you're point is not a debatable one. From pick like 1.03 - 1.12 any of these guys have a shot at being better than the other. Me personally? I don't think Matthews is a better prospect or in a better situation (or a combination of the two) than OBJ, Brandin Cooks or Cody Latimer. Which means at the absolute EARLIEST I'm taking Matthews at 1.06, and I'm still probably taking Hyde or Ebron higher than him. And maybe even Sankey higher than him if I'm in a more 'win now' mode where I could get good use out of the 1-2 year production with small ceiling I believe Sankey possesses. Meaning I'm likely not taking him till 1.08-1.09 in a draft. That's my opinion, but it's not wrong... we have no idea whose opinion is wrong on him. But one of us has to be.

Careful there is some pretty compelling data out there between Matthews and some of the other highly rated rookie WR this year in regards to common opponents.

 

[Milkman]

Attack his tape if you want but his production is mega-elite. No question about it.