TE Jordan Matthews, CAR (1 Viewer)

[werdnoynek]

Attack his tape if you want but his production is mega-elite. No question about it.

Hyperbole much?

All this talk of "can he play?" and his tape is really the crux of the whole debate IMO. His play on the field is what was questionable all along for me. He's always been known as a workout warrior... but when it comes to playing the game at game speed he has some very questionable traits that keep him from being an elite prospect IMO. Corners in the NFL are going to be aggressive with him because that is something he struggles with and when his hands and route running become questionable. We'll see if he can play when puts on the pads and goes up against NFL corners.

I have no question Sammy Watkins, OBJ, or Cooks can be successful against NFL corners because they've shown that toughness against man / press coverage... Matthews on the other hand seems to disappear when he's being pressured by agressive corners.

 

[Milkman]

Lol hyperbole. If Jordan Matthews college production isn't mega-elite i don't know what is werd.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Lol hyperbole. If Jordan Matthews college production isn't mega-elite i don't know what is werd.

If you grade on a curve... he single-handily ruined a lot of his classmates grades.

Over the past two years you have to go to teams that threw for more then double the yards of Vandy to keep up with him. (Fresno St, Oregon, TexA&M)

 

[werdnoynek]

Lol hyperbole. If Jordan Matthews college production isn't mega-elite i don't know what is werd.

If you grade on a curve... he single-handily ruined a lot of his classmates grades.

Over the past two years you have to go to teams that threw for more then double the yards of Vandy to keep up with him. (Fresno St, Oregon, TexA&M)

He isn't even in the Top 20 of career receptions, yards, or TD's since 1956 in CFB. How is it mega-elite?

Ryan Broyles had mega elite college football production. Where did that get him?

 

[WagesOfZin]

i don't think comparing him to broyles supports your argument on that point. are you saying that matthews is in line for leg injuries but only two instead of three because his production wasn't as mega-elite as broyles?

broyles shouldn't be compared to anyone in an argument unless you're comparing injuries.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Lol hyperbole. If Jordan Matthews college production isn't mega-elite i don't know what is werd.

If you grade on a curve... he single-handily ruined a lot of his classmates grades.

Over the past two years you have to go to teams that threw for more then double the yards of Vandy to keep up with him. (Fresno St, Oregon, TexA&M)

He isn't even in the Top 20 of career receptions, yards, or TD's since 1956 in CFB. How is it mega-elite?

Ryan Broyles had mega elite college football production. Where did that get him?

Did you skip what his team was capable of?

Broyles QB/Team threw for more in 1 year then Mathews did over 2. LOL.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Lol hyperbole. If Jordan Matthews college production isn't mega-elite i don't know what is werd.

If you grade on a curve... he single-handily ruined a lot of his classmates grades.

Over the past two years you have to go to teams that threw for more then double the yards of Vandy to keep up with him. (Fresno St, Oregon, TexA&M)

He isn't even in the Top 20 of career receptions, yards, or TD's since 1956 in CFB. How is it mega-elite?

Ryan Broyles had mega elite college football production. Where did that get him?

Did you skip what his team was capable of?

Broyles QB/Team threw for more in 1 year then Mathews did over 2. LOL.

Peter Warrick had 1232 of Fl State's 3019 passing yards and 12/21 receiving TDs in 1998

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Lol hyperbole. If Jordan Matthews college production isn't mega-elite i don't know what is werd.

If you grade on a curve... he single-handily ruined a lot of his classmates grades.

Over the past two years you have to go to teams that threw for more then double the yards of Vandy to keep up with him. (Fresno St, Oregon, TexA&M)

He isn't even in the Top 20 of career receptions, yards, or TD's since 1956 in CFB. How is it mega-elite?

Ryan Broyles had mega elite college football production. Where did that get him?

Did you skip what his team was capable of?

Broyles QB/Team threw for more in 1 year then Mathews did over 2. LOL.

Peter Warrick had 1232 of Fl State's 2487 passing yards and 12/19 receiving TDs in 1998

YAY!

 

[Khy]

Lol hyperbole. If Jordan Matthews college production isn't mega-elite i don't know what is werd.

If you grade on a curve... he single-handily ruined a lot of his classmates grades.

Over the past two years you have to go to teams that threw for more then double the yards of Vandy to keep up with him. (Fresno St, Oregon, TexA&M)

He isn't even in the Top 20 of career receptions, yards, or TD's since 1956 in CFB. How is it mega-elite?

Ryan Broyles had mega elite college football production. Where did that get him?

Did you skip what his team was capable of?

Broyles QB/Team threw for more in 1 year then Mathews did over 2. LOL.

The point is Matthews top season comes in at 55th ALL-TIME in College. Which is far from "Elite" production. And that's really besides the fact, Elite Production really doesn't mean jack all to me from a College ---> NFL standpoint.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/rec-yds-player-season.html

Here's the list of top players... outisde of Randy Moss nobody in the Top 10 is a HoF caliber player. Top 30 gets you 1 more in Larry Fitz. Top 40 gets you Jordy Nelson and Torry Holt and then Top 50 adds Alshon Jeffery. So... 5 players in the top 50 all time were HoF caliber and it's probably early to consider Jeffery in that mix. College production is not relevant to me. It proves nothing, literally nothing. Half the guys on this list never even were drafted.

 

[WagesOfZin]

yeah, but who's talking HOF here? if i'm taking matthews in the 1st, i'm hoping for perennial top 15-20 WR numbers out of him. anything more than that is gravy.

 

[LawFitz]

Lol hyperbole. If Jordan Matthews college production isn't mega-elite i don't know what is werd.

If you grade on a curve... he single-handily ruined a lot of his classmates grades.

Over the past two years you have to go to teams that threw for more then double the yards of Vandy to keep up with him. (Fresno St, Oregon, TexA&M)

He isn't even in the Top 20 of career receptions, yards, or TD's since 1956 in CFB. How is it mega-elite?

Ryan Broyles had mega elite college football production. Where did that get him?

Did you skip what his team was capable of?

Broyles QB/Team threw for more in 1 year then Mathews did over 2. LOL.

The point is Matthews top season comes in at 55th ALL-TIME in College. Which is far from "Elite" production. And that's really besides the fact, Elite Production really doesn't mean jack all to me from a College ---> NFL standpoint.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/rec-yds-player-season.html

Here's the list of top players... outisde of Randy Moss nobody in the Top 10 is a HoF caliber player. Top 30 gets you 1 more in Larry Fitz. Top 40 gets you Jordy Nelson and Torry Holt and then Top 50 adds Alshon Jeffery. So... 5 players in the top 50 all time were HoF caliber and it's probably early to consider Jeffery in that mix. College production is not relevant to me. It proves nothing, literally nothing. Half the guys on this list never even were drafted.

How does this list look when you filter by SEC players only?

 

[Khy]

yeah, but who's talking HOF here? if i'm taking matthews in the 1st, i'm hoping for perennial top 15-20 WR numbers out of him. anything more than that is gravy.

Lets look deeper, the best season of the Top 10 receiving leaders in the NFL of All-Time

Jerry Rice: His Senior Season was 103 receptions, 1682 yards and 27 TDs.

Terrell Owens: Best season - 38 receptions, 724 yards 8 TDs

Randy Moss: Only season 96 receptions, 1820 yards, 26 TDs

Issac Bruce: Best Season - 74 receptions, 1054 yards, 10 TDs

Tim Brown: Best season - 45 receptions, 910 yards 5 TDs

Marvin Harrison: Best season - 56 receptions, 1131 yards, 8 TDs

James Lofton: Best season - 53 receptions, 931 yards, 12 TDs

Cris Carter: Best season - 69 receptions, 1127 yards, 11 TDs

Henry Ellard: Best season - 62 receptions, 1510 yards, 15 TDs

Outside of Moss, Rice and Ellard the rest of these guys all put up a very 'average' and in some cases extremely mediocre college statistics.

If you don't wanna talk HoF that's also fine.

Lets see, looking at the guys in that Top 20 lets see if any of them ever surpassed what would be now a Top 20 WR season in fantasy (as of last year that was about 190 ppr points... somewhere in the range of 65 receptions, 1000 yards and 5-6 TDs)

So from the top:

1. Trevor Insley - 0
2. Troy Edwards - 0
3. Michael Crabtree - 1
4. Jordan White - 0
5. Greg Salas - 0
6. Alex Van-Dyke - 0
7. Terrance Williams - 0
8. Randy Moss - 10
9. J.R. Tolver - 0
10. Justin Blackmon - 0
11. Danario Alexander - 0
12. Howard Twilley - 0
13. Freddie Barnes - 0
14. Patrick Edwards - 0
15. Josh Reed - 0
16. Brandin Cooks - 0 **R**
17. Marqise Lee - 0 **R**
18. Davante Adams - 0 **R**
19. Ashley Lelie - 0 **R*
20. Troy Edwards - 0

So the Top 20 all time in college receiving yards, only 2 players ever had a Top 20 season and only 1 (Randy Moss) did it multiple times.

 

[Winning IS Everything]

yeah, but who's talking HOF here? if i'm taking matthews in the 1st, i'm hoping for perennial top 15-20 WR numbers out of him. anything more than that is gravy.

This is good posting. If I am taking a WR in the 1st round, I HOPE for a WR1, Top 10-12 production. I am HAPPY with WR2 production though (Top 20).

 

[Khy]

Lol hyperbole. If Jordan Matthews college production isn't mega-elite i don't know what is werd.

If you grade on a curve... he single-handily ruined a lot of his classmates grades.

Over the past two years you have to go to teams that threw for more then double the yards of Vandy to keep up with him. (Fresno St, Oregon, TexA&M)

He isn't even in the Top 20 of career receptions, yards, or TD's since 1956 in CFB. How is it mega-elite?

Ryan Broyles had mega elite college football production. Where did that get him?

Did you skip what his team was capable of?

Broyles QB/Team threw for more in 1 year then Mathews did over 2. LOL.

The point is Matthews top season comes in at 55th ALL-TIME in College. Which is far from "Elite" production. And that's really besides the fact, Elite Production really doesn't mean jack all to me from a College ---> NFL standpoint.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/rec-yds-player-season.html

Here's the list of top players... outisde of Randy Moss nobody in the Top 10 is a HoF caliber player. Top 30 gets you 1 more in Larry Fitz. Top 40 gets you Jordy Nelson and Torry Holt and then Top 50 adds Alshon Jeffery. So... 5 players in the top 50 all time were HoF caliber and it's probably early to consider Jeffery in that mix. College production is not relevant to me. It proves nothing, literally nothing. Half the guys on this list never even were drafted.

How does this list look when you filter by SEC players only?

Getting mighty specific to try and prove an invalid point aren't we now? Why not also narrow it down to SEC players who only played against future NFL starting corners too while we're at it?

Also, if you really want to know? Only 4 of the players on the Top 100 all-time list played for SEC schools. Danario Alexander, Alshon Jeffery, Jordan Matthews, Mike Evans. SEC isn't exactly known for it's top of the line WR talents. Never have been, so I fail to see how that really matters. One of those guys had a big season last year, one is always injured and two are rookies. So narrowing it down REALLY helps a lot. You have to go all the way down to 20th all time WR with Hines Ward to find the first WR from the SEC on the all time list.

 

[Milkman]

Lol hyperbole. If Jordan Matthews college production isn't mega-elite i don't know what is werd.

If you grade on a curve... he single-handily ruined a lot of his classmates grades.

Over the past two years you have to go to teams that threw for more then double the yards of Vandy to keep up with him. (Fresno St, Oregon, TexA&M)

He isn't even in the Top 20 of career receptions, yards, or TD's since 1956 in CFB. How is it mega-elite?

Ryan Broyles had mega elite college football production. Where did that get him?

lol at bulk stats telling the entire story.

 

[jurb26]

Why are we getting so worked about college stats here? Mathews had very good stats in college. Stats are a very poor indicator of future NFL success.

 

[WagesOfZin]

what he did in college doesn't matter because college isn't the NFL....unless it does matter.

i'm so confused.

 

[Milkman]

Why are we getting so worked about college stats here? Mathews had very good stats in college. Stats are a very poor indicator of future NFL success.

Bulk stats are poor but why? I think I know the answer but I want to hear what other people think.

 

[Khy]

Why are we getting so worked about college stats here? Mathews had very good stats in college. Stats are a very poor indicator of future NFL success.

Bulk stats are poor but why? I think I know the answer but I want to hear what other people think.

It's not bulk stats that are poor, it's college stats that are poor. College stats are NOT equal to future NFL production. There's very minimal amounts of cases where someone produced at a monster level in college and went on to have a great NFL career.

 

[Milkman]

lol nope!

 

[renesauz]

this one line captures it all EBF, and is the reason so many believe this kid COULD be special:

Baldinger reiterated a point Eagles officials have made - you don't become the SEC's all-time leading receiver, playing for a Vanderbilt team that lacks other weapons, against defenses designed to stop you, without having a special drive.

 

[Milkman]

this one line captures it all EBF, and is the reason so many believe this kid COULD be special:

Baldinger reiterated a point Eagles officials have made - you don't become the SEC's all-time leading receiver, playing for a Vanderbilt team that lacks other weapons, against defenses designed to stop you, without having a special drive.

And they didn't throw the ball that much. I mean there wasn't a hole lot of meat on the bone and Matthews ate it all.

 

[LawFitz]

Lol hyperbole. If Jordan Matthews college production isn't mega-elite i don't know what is werd.

If you grade on a curve... he single-handily ruined a lot of his classmates grades.

Over the past two years you have to go to teams that threw for more then double the yards of Vandy to keep up with him. (Fresno St, Oregon, TexA&M)

He isn't even in the Top 20 of career receptions, yards, or TD's since 1956 in CFB. How is it mega-elite?

Ryan Broyles had mega elite college football production. Where did that get him?

Did you skip what his team was capable of?

Broyles QB/Team threw for more in 1 year then Mathews did over 2. LOL.

The point is Matthews top season comes in at 55th ALL-TIME in College. Which is far from "Elite" production. And that's really besides the fact, Elite Production really doesn't mean jack all to me from a College ---> NFL standpoint.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/rec-yds-player-season.html

Here's the list of top players... outisde of Randy Moss nobody in the Top 10 is a HoF caliber player. Top 30 gets you 1 more in Larry Fitz. Top 40 gets you Jordy Nelson and Torry Holt and then Top 50 adds Alshon Jeffery. So... 5 players in the top 50 all time were HoF caliber and it's probably early to consider Jeffery in that mix. College production is not relevant to me. It proves nothing, literally nothing. Half the guys on this list never even were drafted.

How does this list look when you filter by SEC players only?

Getting mighty specific to try and prove an invalid point aren't we now? Why not also narrow it down to SEC players who only played against future NFL starting corners too while we're at it?

Also, if you really want to know? Only 4 of the players on the Top 100 all-time list played for SEC schools. Danario Alexander, Alshon Jeffery, Jordan Matthews, Mike Evans. SEC isn't exactly known for it's top of the line WR talents. Never have been, so I fail to see how that really matters. One of those guys had a big season last year, one is always injured and two are rookies. So narrowing it down REALLY helps a lot. You have to go all the way down to 20th all time WR with Hines Ward to find the first WR from the SEC on the all time list.

I don't think it's invalid to *try* to normalize the stats list you provided to account for level of competition. The SEC is a defensive conference. Always has been. Everyone knows that. Hence (to me at least) why Matthews' stats are even more impressive than just the sheer numbers alone. He played on a crappy offense against the best defensive conference in CFB and still managed to put up big time numbers. Disingenuous to compare them to the numbers put up by a list full of guys like Devonte Adams (just using his situation as a reference, not indicting Adams personally).

 

[Khy]

Lol hyperbole. If Jordan Matthews college production isn't mega-elite i don't know what is werd.

If you grade on a curve... he single-handily ruined a lot of his classmates grades.

Over the past two years you have to go to teams that threw for more then double the yards of Vandy to keep up with him. (Fresno St, Oregon, TexA&M)

He isn't even in the Top 20 of career receptions, yards, or TD's since 1956 in CFB. How is it mega-elite?

Ryan Broyles had mega elite college football production. Where did that get him?

Did you skip what his team was capable of?

Broyles QB/Team threw for more in 1 year then Mathews did over 2. LOL.

The point is Matthews top season comes in at 55th ALL-TIME in College. Which is far from "Elite" production. And that's really besides the fact, Elite Production really doesn't mean jack all to me from a College ---> NFL standpoint.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/rec-yds-player-season.html

Here's the list of top players... outisde of Randy Moss nobody in the Top 10 is a HoF caliber player. Top 30 gets you 1 more in Larry Fitz. Top 40 gets you Jordy Nelson and Torry Holt and then Top 50 adds Alshon Jeffery. So... 5 players in the top 50 all time were HoF caliber and it's probably early to consider Jeffery in that mix. College production is not relevant to me. It proves nothing, literally nothing. Half the guys on this list never even were drafted.

How does this list look when you filter by SEC players only?

Getting mighty specific to try and prove an invalid point aren't we now? Why not also narrow it down to SEC players who only played against future NFL starting corners too while we're at it?

Also, if you really want to know? Only 4 of the players on the Top 100 all-time list played for SEC schools. Danario Alexander, Alshon Jeffery, Jordan Matthews, Mike Evans. SEC isn't exactly known for it's top of the line WR talents. Never have been, so I fail to see how that really matters. One of those guys had a big season last year, one is always injured and two are rookies. So narrowing it down REALLY helps a lot. You have to go all the way down to 20th all time WR with Hines Ward to find the first WR from the SEC on the all time list.

I don't think it's invalid to *try* to normalize the stats list you provided to account for level of competition. The SEC is a defensive conference. Always has been. Everyone knows that. Hence (to me at least) why Matthews' stats are even more impressive than just the sheer numbers alone. He played on a crappy offense against the best defensive conference in CFB and still managed to put up big time numbers. Disingenuous to compare them to the numbers put up by a list full of guys like Devonte Adams (just using his situation as a reference, not indicting Adams personally).

Yeah, I understand the point. SEC defenses are hard, he still produced. But as I said, only 4 players from the SEC ever finished in the top 100 all time college seasons for receiving yardage. Alshon Jeffery, who just blew up last season. Danario Alexander who might have blown up if he ever got a real chance of staying healthy. Then Mike Evans and Jordan Matthews who remain to be seen. There's just not enough data there. But if we're gonna talk top ranked DB units vs him...?

South Carolina was a top unit - He posted 8/106/0 - Solid game

Florida was a top unit - He posted 5/45/0 - Bleh game

He didn't play Alabama, Ohio State, Oregon, Stanford, Florida State, TCU, Va Tech, Michigan State etc. the rest of the DB units in NCAA weren't that top notch. A lot of these units were much better up in the front 7 than their DBs.

 

[LawFitz]

But as I said, only 4 players from the SEC ever finished in the top 100 all time college seasons for receiving yardage.

I guess we look at this data point differently.

You look at it as: there aren't enough top CFB-stat producing SEC WRs to take a meaningful sample.

I look at it as: only FOUR players in the 80-year history of the SEC have been able to put up top CFB WR seasons against those defenses, and Jordan is one of them.

 

[Khy]

But as I said, only 4 players from the SEC ever finished in the top 100 all time college seasons for receiving yardage.

I guess we look at this data point differently.

You look at it as: there aren't enough top CFB-stat producing SEC WRs to take a meaningful sample.

I look at it as: only FOUR players in the 80-year history of the SEC have been able to put up top CFB WR seasons against those defenses, and Jordan is one of them.

More or less, yeah.

 

[dhockster]

I think the difference in how people think Matthews will do has a lot to with what attributes they value. If you value physical attributes, you might not think Matthews has enough to differentiate himself in the NFL. If you value hign motivation (works hard every play), Football IQ (understands his offense and what the opposing defense likes to do), and great work ethic (gets body and mind in best possible shape), you might think that Matthews has enough of these to overcome any perceived physical attribute deficiencies.

I also think that people are undervaluing Matthews situation of his fit with his Team/Coach. Kelly's offense requires smart players who have to be on the ball all the time. Matthews appears to have all the right attributes to succeed in this offense. I would agree much more with peoples concerns about Matthews if he was going to a team where he had to physically create most of his opportunities. In Philly, the offense is going to create a bunch of opportunities for him.

 

[LawFitz]

In Philly, the offense is going to create a bunch of opportunities for him.

Sometimes fantasy football is like real estate... Location, location, location!

 

[Milkman]

Evans and Mathews both played against Missouri and Ole Miss.

Matthews 8.5 rec., 150.5 yards, 1.00 TDs per game

Evans 4.0 rec., 27.0 yards, 0.00 TDs per game

Evans had a 1st round QB throwing to him as well. Matthews had poop throwing to him.

 

[Khy]

Evans and Mathews both played against Missouri and Ole Miss.

Matthews 8.5 rec., 150.5 yards, 1.00 TDs per game

Evans 4.0 rec., 27.0 yards, 0.00 TDs per game

Evans had a 1st round QB throwing to him as well. Matthews had poop throwing to him.

What does this prove? Ole Miss was the #40th ranked passing defense and Missouri was 43rd. The reason I'm saying this whole "BUT HE DID IT AGAINST THE SEC!" is irrelevant is this same thing. He didn't really play a top end passing defensive unit. Outside of Florida (who he sucked against) he didn't play another Top 25 unit all season. So sure, he played the SEC all season... big deal.

Link for details: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/40/p1

 

[Bigboy10182000]

In Philly, the offense is going to create a bunch of opportunities for him.

Sometimes fantasy football is like real estate... Location, location, location!

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Evans and Mathews both played against Missouri and Ole Miss.

Matthews 8.5 rec., 150.5 yards, 1.00 TDs per game

Evans 4.0 rec., 27.0 yards, 0.00 TDs per game

Evans had a 1st round QB throwing to him as well. Matthews had poop throwing to him.

What does this prove? Ole Miss was the #40th ranked passing defense and Missouri was 43rd. The reason I'm saying this whole "BUT HE DID IT AGAINST THE SEC!" is irrelevant is this same thing. He didn't really play a top end passing defensive unit. Outside of Florida (who he sucked against) he didn't play another Top 25 unit all season. So sure, he played the SEC all season... big deal.

Link for details: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/40/p1

I'm sure he is not the only one to do this as well

 

[werdnoynek]

In Philly, the offense is going to create a bunch of opportunities for him.

Sometimes fantasy football is like real estate... Location, location, location!

Exactly, the only elite thing about Matthews is his location.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

In Philly, the offense is going to create a bunch of opportunities for him.

Sometimes fantasy football is like real estate... Location, location, location!

Exactly, the only elite thing about Matthews is his location.

Is this supposed to be bad? I'm confused...

 

[Khy]

Evans and Mathews both played against Missouri and Ole Miss.

Matthews 8.5 rec., 150.5 yards, 1.00 TDs per game

Evans 4.0 rec., 27.0 yards, 0.00 TDs per game

Evans had a 1st round QB throwing to him as well. Matthews had poop throwing to him.

What does this prove? Ole Miss was the #40th ranked passing defense and Missouri was 43rd. The reason I'm saying this whole "BUT HE DID IT AGAINST THE SEC!" is irrelevant is this same thing. He didn't really play a top end passing defensive unit. Outside of Florida (who he sucked against) he didn't play another Top 25 unit all season. So sure, he played the SEC all season... big deal.

Link for details: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/40/p1

I'm sure he is not the only one to do this as well

I'm not saying this is why he'll suck. I'm saying sitting around saying 'He was amazing because he posted top level stats vs the SEC' is a pretty obnoxious statement as he really didn't. The SEC's pass defenses weren't that great last season. In fact, the only top unit he played which was Florida, he didn't do well against. That was my main point. People keep saying "He broke SEC receiving records! That's amazing". Sure, I guess... but not really.

 

[Milkman]

Evans and Mathews both played against Missouri and Ole Miss.

Matthews 8.5 rec., 150.5 yards, 1.00 TDs per game

Evans 4.0 rec., 27.0 yards, 0.00 TDs per game

Evans had a 1st round QB throwing to him as well. Matthews had poop throwing to him.

What does this prove? Ole Miss was the #40th ranked passing defense and Missouri was 43rd. The reason I'm saying this whole "BUT HE DID IT AGAINST THE SEC!" is irrelevant is this same thing. He didn't really play a top end passing defensive unit. Outside of Florida (who he sucked against) he didn't play another Top 25 unit all season. So sure, he played the SEC all season... big deal.

Link for details: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/40/p1

Matthews can only play who's on his schedule. He doesn't get to pick who he plays. Penalizing him for dominating who he played when he played in the toughest conference in college football is lol.

 

[ShaHBucks]

As EBF as said repeatedly, there's nothing elite - as a prospect - about him. It's a completely reasonable and rational way to look at him and it seems people are just getting worked up over that word elite. Not being elite doesn't mean being non-productive, it's just that the ceiling is limited. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

He's done nothing but run in shorts since being drafted... something he seems to excel at. Let's watch him play at game speed and see how much his work ethic and "know-how" helps mask his deficiencies in physicality against aggressive corners. If he's really the technician and give-it-all guy he seems to be on the practice field, he could be a top 20 guy in that offense. But to peg him over and elite prospect like Watkins is just silly.

ETA: He lacks "it" but everyone needs a WR2 too.

Watkins isn't in the range of elite players based on EBF's cutoffs. Jordan Matthews actually is, hence the confusion.

I guess I couldn't care less what EBF's cutoffs are. I just don't see it on the field.

That's more like it

 

[Khy]

Evans and Mathews both played against Missouri and Ole Miss.

Matthews 8.5 rec., 150.5 yards, 1.00 TDs per game

Evans 4.0 rec., 27.0 yards, 0.00 TDs per game

Evans had a 1st round QB throwing to him as well. Matthews had poop throwing to him.

What does this prove? Ole Miss was the #40th ranked passing defense and Missouri was 43rd. The reason I'm saying this whole "BUT HE DID IT AGAINST THE SEC!" is irrelevant is this same thing. He didn't really play a top end passing defensive unit. Outside of Florida (who he sucked against) he didn't play another Top 25 unit all season. So sure, he played the SEC all season... big deal.

Link for details: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/40/p1

Matthews can only play who's on his schedule. He doesn't get to pick who he plays. Penalizing him for dominating who he played when he played in the toughest conference in college football is lol.

I'm not penalizing him for who he played. But if I can't penalize him for who he played than you also can't hoist him onto a pedestal for who he played. The pendulum swings both ways here champ, it doesn't just move the way you want it to. You keep bringing up how dominant he was against the SEC. I bring up that of the defenses he placed only 1 was a top 25 passing defense and he did jack all against them. And now all of a sudden its "Well you can't penalize him for his schedule!".

 

[ShaHBucks]

Attack his tape if you want but his production is mega-elite. No question about it.

Hyperbole much?

All this talk of "can he play?" and his tape is really the crux of the whole debate IMO. His play on the field is what was questionable all along for me. He's always been known as a workout warrior... but when it comes to playing the game at game speed he has some very questionable traits that keep him from being an elite prospect IMO. Corners in the NFL are going to be aggressive with him because that is something he struggles with and when his hands and route running become questionable. We'll see if he can play when puts on the pads and goes up against NFL corners.

I have no question Sammy Watkins, OBJ, or Cooks can be successful against NFL corners because they've shown that toughness against man / press coverage... Matthews on the other hand seems to disappear when he's being pressured by agressive corners.

What??

 

[ShaHBucks]

Khy, you don't go talking about what Matthews did vs good opponents and then say you like OBJ more in the same post. Matthews has 3 years of good production for the record.

 

[Khy]

Khy, you don't go talking about what Matthews did vs good opponents and then say you like OBJ more in the same post. Matthews has 3 years of good production for the record.

Man, I swear people don't read what I write and just read names.

My entire point is that college production for a WR is irrelevant. That's been my whole point for the past two pages. Somehow nobody seems to get that. The only reason I'm using stats this whole time is to show that theres literally zero correlation between good college stats and good nfl stats. Talent is what matters in the NFL. I think OBJ is significantly more talented than Matthews and in just as good of a system if not better to suit his strengths. I've also made it vocal that I'm not even remotely as high on Foles and Kelly as most are around these boards. The Giants also attempted 60 more passes last season and might pass even more this season, which means there are a lot more balls to go around for OBJ. I really couldn't care less about statistics in the NCAA though, it's a bunch of 23 year olds beating up on 12 year olds as far as I see it. The talent gaps are so enormous it's just silly. When I watch college tape I look for position mechanics, athletic ability and mental understanding of the game. When I look at Matthews on tape I see all three of these traits as middle of the road. Where as to me OBJ has a great to elite rating to me in all 3 categories.

And just for note: I felt the same way long before the Giants drafted him, although I was really hoping they would take him if Evans didn't fall to them.

 

[Milkman]

Evans and Mathews both played against Missouri and Ole Miss.

Matthews 8.5 rec., 150.5 yards, 1.00 TDs per game

Evans 4.0 rec., 27.0 yards, 0.00 TDs per game

Evans had a 1st round QB throwing to him as well. Matthews had poop throwing to him.

What does this prove? Ole Miss was the #40th ranked passing defense and Missouri was 43rd. The reason I'm saying this whole "BUT HE DID IT AGAINST THE SEC!" is irrelevant is this same thing. He didn't really play a top end passing defensive unit. Outside of Florida (who he sucked against) he didn't play another Top 25 unit all season. So sure, he played the SEC all season... big deal.

Link for details: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/40/p1

Matthews can only play who's on his schedule. He doesn't get to pick who he plays. Penalizing him for dominating who he played when he played in the toughest conference in college football is lol.

I'm not penalizing him for who he played. But if I can't penalize him for who he played than you also can't hoist him onto a pedestal for who he played. The pendulum swings both ways here champ, it doesn't just move the way you want it to. You keep bringing up how dominant he was against the SEC. I bring up that of the defenses he placed only 1 was a top 25 passing defense and he did jack all against them. And now all of a sudden its "Well you can't penalize him for his schedule!".

lol wat! Ok cupcake. At least you got my name right. That's about all you've gotten right since you started posting itt.

 

[Khy]

Evans and Mathews both played against Missouri and Ole Miss.

Matthews 8.5 rec., 150.5 yards, 1.00 TDs per game

Evans 4.0 rec., 27.0 yards, 0.00 TDs per game

Evans had a 1st round QB throwing to him as well. Matthews had poop throwing to him.

What does this prove? Ole Miss was the #40th ranked passing defense and Missouri was 43rd. The reason I'm saying this whole "BUT HE DID IT AGAINST THE SEC!" is irrelevant is this same thing. He didn't really play a top end passing defensive unit. Outside of Florida (who he sucked against) he didn't play another Top 25 unit all season. So sure, he played the SEC all season... big deal.

Link for details: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/40/p1

Matthews can only play who's on his schedule. He doesn't get to pick who he plays. Penalizing him for dominating who he played when he played in the toughest conference in college football is lol.

I'm not penalizing him for who he played. But if I can't penalize him for who he played than you also can't hoist him onto a pedestal for who he played. The pendulum swings both ways here champ, it doesn't just move the way you want it to. You keep bringing up how dominant he was against the SEC. I bring up that of the defenses he placed only 1 was a top 25 passing defense and he did jack all against them. And now all of a sudden its "Well you can't penalize him for his schedule!".

lol wat! Ok cupcake. At least you got my name right. That's about all you've gotten right since you started posting itt.

Cupcake, that's cute. I'll see you in here around December when Jordan Matthews has a total of like 30 receptions for 300 yards and a TD.

 

[ShaHBucks]

And Matthews arms is on the top 81st percentile of players on mockdraftable. 2nd longest in the class u believe.

 

[Milkman]

Evans and Mathews both played against Missouri and Ole Miss.

Matthews 8.5 rec., 150.5 yards, 1.00 TDs per game

Evans 4.0 rec., 27.0 yards, 0.00 TDs per game

Evans had a 1st round QB throwing to him as well. Matthews had poop throwing to him.

What does this prove? Ole Miss was the #40th ranked passing defense and Missouri was 43rd. The reason I'm saying this whole "BUT HE DID IT AGAINST THE SEC!" is irrelevant is this same thing. He didn't really play a top end passing defensive unit. Outside of Florida (who he sucked against) he didn't play another Top 25 unit all season. So sure, he played the SEC all season... big deal.

Link for details: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/40/p1

Matthews can only play who's on his schedule. He doesn't get to pick who he plays. Penalizing him for dominating who he played when he played in the toughest conference in college football is lol.

I'm not penalizing him for who he played. But if I can't penalize him for who he played than you also can't hoist him onto a pedestal for who he played. The pendulum swings both ways here champ, it doesn't just move the way you want it to. You keep bringing up how dominant he was against the SEC. I bring up that of the defenses he placed only 1 was a top 25 passing defense and he did jack all against them. And now all of a sudden its "Well you can't penalize him for his schedule!".

lol wat! Ok cupcake. At least you got my name right. That's about all you've gotten right since you started posting itt.

Cupcake, that's cute. I'll see you in here around December when Jordan Matthews has a total of like 30 receptions for 300 yards and a TD.

lol wow you judge WR halfway through their rookie seasons. Check out what Alshon Jeffery did his rookie year. Total bust. Amiright?

 

[ShaHBucks]

Like stats or not, it's pretty hard to present a compelling argument without them.

 

[werdnoynek]

Like stats or not, it's pretty hard to present a compelling argument without them.

NFL stats sure. NCAA stats don't really tell us much about the future.

 

[dhockster]

Khy, you don't go talking about what Matthews did vs good opponents and then say you like OBJ more in the same post. Matthews has 3 years of good production for the record.

Man, I swear people don't read what I write and just read names.

My entire point is that college production for a WR is irrelevant. That's been my whole point for the past two pages. Somehow nobody seems to get that. The only reason I'm using stats this whole time is to show that theres literally zero correlation between good college stats and good nfl stats. Talent is what matters in the NFL. I think OBJ is significantly more talented than Matthews and in just as good of a system if not better to suit his strengths. I've also made it vocal that I'm not even remotely as high on Foles and Kelly as most are around these boards. The Giants also attempted 60 more passes last season and might pass even more this season, which means there are a lot more balls to go around for OBJ. I really couldn't care less about statistics in the NCAA though, it's a bunch of 23 year olds beating up on 12 year olds as far as I see it. The talent gaps are so enormous it's just silly. When I watch college tape I look for position mechanics, athletic ability and mental understanding of the game. When I look at Matthews on tape I see all three of these traits as middle of the road. Where as to me OBJ has a great to elite rating to me in all 3 categories.

And just for note: I felt the same way long before the Giants drafted him, although I was really hoping they would take him if Evans didn't fall to them.

The Giants passed 60 more times for about 500 less yards than the Eagles. I assume that's because the Giants had to throw because they were behind so much. The Eagles threw more when they wanted to which is why they were

more efficient throwing the ball.

Based on the bolded, do you think you might have a little rooting bias against the Eagles and their players? I will be the first to admit I want Matthews to do well because I am an Eagles fan.

 

[ShaHBucks]

Like stats or not, it's pretty hard to present a compelling argument without them.

NFL stats sure. NCAA stats don't really tell us much about the future.

I'll get to this myth soon. It seems to be the only hope some have left

 

[Khy]

Khy, you don't go talking about what Matthews did vs good opponents and then say you like OBJ more in the same post. Matthews has 3 years of good production for the record.

Man, I swear people don't read what I write and just read names.

My entire point is that college production for a WR is irrelevant. That's been my whole point for the past two pages. Somehow nobody seems to get that. The only reason I'm using stats this whole time is to show that theres literally zero correlation between good college stats and good nfl stats. Talent is what matters in the NFL. I think OBJ is significantly more talented than Matthews and in just as good of a system if not better to suit his strengths. I've also made it vocal that I'm not even remotely as high on Foles and Kelly as most are around these boards. The Giants also attempted 60 more passes last season and might pass even more this season, which means there are a lot more balls to go around for OBJ. I really couldn't care less about statistics in the NCAA though, it's a bunch of 23 year olds beating up on 12 year olds as far as I see it. The talent gaps are so enormous it's just silly. When I watch college tape I look for position mechanics, athletic ability and mental understanding of the game. When I look at Matthews on tape I see all three of these traits as middle of the road. Where as to me OBJ has a great to elite rating to me in all 3 categories.

And just for note: I felt the same way long before the Giants drafted him, although I was really hoping they would take him if Evans didn't fall to them.

The Giants passed 60 more times for about 500 less yards than the Eagles. I assume that's because the Giants had to throw because they were behind so much. The Eagles threw more when they wanted to which is why they were

more efficient throwing the ball.

Based on the bolded, do you think you might have a little rooting bias against the Eagles and their players? I will be the first to admit I want Matthews to do well because I am an Eagles fan.

Nope, absolutely not. He wasn't even in my Top 10 WRs coming into the draft, actually not even Top 15. His landing spot definitely shot him up my boards some but not to where his ADP is... meanwhile I had OBJ as #3 on my personal boards before and after the draft. I don't like Matthews because... I just don't like Matthews. Has absolutely zero to do with the Eagles as a landing spot, if anything I'm actually higher on him now that he is an Eagle than I was before the draft when he could've went anywhere. Still doesn't change my opinion that I think his floor and his ceiling aren't that far from each other. I think he'll be a solid WR3/4 most of his career and post maybe 1-2 WR2 seasons along the way. But that's his ceiling to me, I really don't see him as a guy who will ever flirt with WR1 numbers regardless of his QB, system or team.