TE Jordan Matthews, CAR (1 Viewer)

[Bigboy10182000]

Oh, I'm sorry... you're right trying to predict a coaches tendencies by using his ACTUAL numbers is unreal. I suppose I should just make up crap about how his offense is designed to take what the defense gives it (you know like every offense) and assume he'll throw the ball 600 times this year. watch some games too?!? Even though he's never ONCE eclipsed 510 attempts in a season, college or professionally in 7 years of coaching. Kelly saying his system shifts and changes to the defense is the same useless BS that Sean Payton shouts every off-season. But when push comes to shove they still throw the ball in the Top 3 every year and run the ball in the Bottom 5. Coaches don't change what they like, most are extremely stubborn in their ways. Kelly runs significantly more than he passes. To ignore his college numbers would just be ignorant.

Are you one of these guys that's still waiting for a QB that "can run the Kelly offense" too?

Ignorant could also be one looking at a totally different game (college versus the NFL) and trying to draw parrallels, no?

Holy smokes.

**ETA**

Had to fix something in there.

Chip is a 2nd year NFL coach, you have no choice but to look at his tendencies in college where the majority of his resume is and try to draw conclusions from that. Is it possible he lets Foles take 550-600 attempts this season? Sure. But his history shows up you'll be lucky if Foles eclipsed 510 attempts as it'd be something a Chip Kelly QB hasn't done since he became the OC in Oregon back in 2007. So we can make 'guesses' based on literally nothing but thin air, faeries and dreams. Or you know, we can make educated guesses based on actual numbers that show Chip's clear tendencies to have a significantly higher runass ratio than you're saying he will going forward.

This isn't about me talking about "last year" this and "last year" that. It's simply fact, since 2007 when Kelly landed a position to make decisions like the runass ratio of his team, his QB has never exceeded 510 attempts. Which in the NFL is going to be in the bottom 4th of the league every year. And until a Kelly QB does so, it's just a random rumor with zero leg to stand on. Similar to the Andre Johnson to NE rumors.

His history suggests he also wants a running QB as well, no? You call them educated guesses but you leave out MANY key parts.

You lean WAY too heavy on previous years.

You also don't factor in a players situation at all.

Both (IMHO) are VERY big FFB no-no's

I've explained several times the reason why I don't think Matthews is in nearly as good a situation as you do. Whether I'm wrong or right, continually ignoring what I'm saying and telling me I'm not factoring situation at all doesn't help the conversation. But I'll say it again, I actually weigh situation a ton but.... I do not think that Matthews has the talent to take advantage of a situation where I see him only getting 20-25 receptions this season. And next season is hard to predict as if Maclin has a good year they'll resign him again. And even if he doesn't and Matthews get the #2 job behind Cooper next year? I still don't think he's that good of a player and he'll be at best a WR3 behind Cooper in 2015.

And yes, I'm weighing heavily on previous years. Again, I don't know how many times I can say that Kelly has never had a QB pass a lot in a season. It's not even like there's one interesting outlier where Kelly had a college QB throw the for 38 attempts per game or anything. The most a QB in his system every threw for is 31.75. I mean jesus, Foles only averaged 28.36 attempts per game in his starts last season. Where are you still pulling this crazy thing out of your head that he'll average more than 32 attempts a game? He simply won't he had 2 games where he threw for over 32 attempts, one he passed for 34 attempts the other 48. Past that his other starts: 25, 31, 29, 28, 26, 22, 26, 26. Those won't lead to a bunch of production. Sorry it just won't, tell me I'm leaning to heavily on previous years all you want. It still doesn't make you right.

I'm not ignoring it. It just doesnt make sense is all. On one hand Matthews doesnt have the talent to succeed over Maclin or Cooper in this offense and his situation isnt as good. Yet Lattimer (you have him higher) does, as the 4th option (Thomas, Welker, Sanders) at WR on a team where he may not even see the field. Same with Adams to a lesser extent. If nothing else please explain, in detail, how in the hell you "actually weigh situation a ton" using Lattimer and Matthews as your examples

The second paragraph is simple actually. Foles attempts are low last year because of why? **Go back and post that link you provided a page or two ago about how everything he did was historically higher than anyone**

His attempts were low because you cant throw the ball 10 times on a drive when you scored in 3 passes. See his TD% and YPA, from the article you posted.

Luck was 10th in attempts last season with 572 overall and an average of 35.75, call it 36. Foles averaged 29 attempts per game...I included the Saints game and it looks like you didnt and you may have included the Giants game which he didnt start. Anyway...

If Foles efficiency is going to take a ding (which you said it would) than averaging 6-10 more attempts per game is not at all out of the realm of possibility, in fact it's pretty much a given. IF he gets just 7 he will be in the top 10 in attempts..... per all your own reasons.

In your above argument the key factor you seem to have left out was Foles' efficiency and how that LOWERED his attempts.

 

[LawFitz]

regardless of what happens, i think it's blatantly obvious this thread is going to be chock full of "SEE!?!??!!" for a long time to come.

You mean like every thread on these forums about a specific player? There's only two sides and one has to be right

I am buying some of what you're saying, but where you lose me is when you say Matthews is a mediocre talent. I can accept that he may not be elite, but mediocre? You don't even think he'll be a WR2/3? C'mon man. I really think you're underestimating this kid's character, even if you *may* be right about his physical traits. Good discussion, though. I appreciate your commentary, even if I don't agree with all of it.

 

[Milkman]

regardless of what happens, i think it's blatantly obvious this thread is going to be chock full of "SEE!?!??!!" for a long time to come.

You mean like every thread on these forums about a specific player? There's only two sides and one has to be right

I am buying some of what you're saying, but where you lose me is when you say Matthews is a mediocre talent. I can accept that he may not be elite, but mediocre? You don't even think he'll be a WR2/3? C'mon man. I really think you're underestimating this kid's character, even if you *may* be right about his physical traits. Good discussion, though. I appreciate your commentary, even if I don't agree with all of it.

lol Khy is trolling. It's pretty obvious now.

 

[Khy]

Oh, I'm sorry... you're right trying to predict a coaches tendencies by using his ACTUAL numbers is unreal. I suppose I should just make up crap about how his offense is designed to take what the defense gives it (you know like every offense) and assume he'll throw the ball 600 times this year. watch some games too?!? Even though he's never ONCE eclipsed 510 attempts in a season, college or professionally in 7 years of coaching. Kelly saying his system shifts and changes to the defense is the same useless BS that Sean Payton shouts every off-season. But when push comes to shove they still throw the ball in the Top 3 every year and run the ball in the Bottom 5. Coaches don't change what they like, most are extremely stubborn in their ways. Kelly runs significantly more than he passes. To ignore his college numbers would just be ignorant.

Are you one of these guys that's still waiting for a QB that "can run the Kelly offense" too?

Ignorant could also be one looking at a totally different game (college versus the NFL) and trying to draw parrallels, no?

Holy smokes.

**ETA**

Had to fix something in there.

Chip is a 2nd year NFL coach, you have no choice but to look at his tendencies in college where the majority of his resume is and try to draw conclusions from that. Is it possible he lets Foles take 550-600 attempts this season? Sure. But his history shows up you'll be lucky if Foles eclipsed 510 attempts as it'd be something a Chip Kelly QB hasn't done since he became the OC in Oregon back in 2007. So we can make 'guesses' based on literally nothing but thin air, faeries and dreams. Or you know, we can make educated guesses based on actual numbers that show Chip's clear tendencies to have a significantly higher runass ratio than you're saying he will going forward.

This isn't about me talking about "last year" this and "last year" that. It's simply fact, since 2007 when Kelly landed a position to make decisions like the runass ratio of his team, his QB has never exceeded 510 attempts. Which in the NFL is going to be in the bottom 4th of the league every year. And until a Kelly QB does so, it's just a random rumor with zero leg to stand on. Similar to the Andre Johnson to NE rumors.

His history suggests he also wants a running QB as well, no? You call them educated guesses but you leave out MANY key parts.

You lean WAY too heavy on previous years.

You also don't factor in a players situation at all.

Both (IMHO) are VERY big FFB no-no's

I've explained several times the reason why I don't think Matthews is in nearly as good a situation as you do. Whether I'm wrong or right, continually ignoring what I'm saying and telling me I'm not factoring situation at all doesn't help the conversation. But I'll say it again, I actually weigh situation a ton but.... I do not think that Matthews has the talent to take advantage of a situation where I see him only getting 20-25 receptions this season. And next season is hard to predict as if Maclin has a good year they'll resign him again. And even if he doesn't and Matthews get the #2 job behind Cooper next year? I still don't think he's that good of a player and he'll be at best a WR3 behind Cooper in 2015.

And yes, I'm weighing heavily on previous years. Again, I don't know how many times I can say that Kelly has never had a QB pass a lot in a season. It's not even like there's one interesting outlier where Kelly had a college QB throw the for 38 attempts per game or anything. The most a QB in his system every threw for is 31.75. I mean jesus, Foles only averaged 28.36 attempts per game in his starts last season. Where are you still pulling this crazy thing out of your head that he'll average more than 32 attempts a game? He simply won't he had 2 games where he threw for over 32 attempts, one he passed for 34 attempts the other 48. Past that his other starts: 25, 31, 29, 28, 26, 22, 26, 26. Those won't lead to a bunch of production. Sorry it just won't, tell me I'm leaning to heavily on previous years all you want. It still doesn't make you right.

I'm not ignoring it. It just doesnt make sense is all. On one hand Matthews doesnt have the talent to succeed over Maclin or Cooper in this offense and his situation isnt as good. Yet Lattimer (you have him higher) does, as the 4th option (Thomas, Welker, Sanders) at WR on a team where he may not even see the field. Same with Adams to a lesser extent. If nothing else please explain, in detail, how in the hell you "actually weigh situation a ton" using Lattimer and Matthews as your examples

The second paragraph is simple actually. Foles attempts are low last year because of why? **Go back and post that link you provided a page or two ago about how everything he did was historically higher than anyone**

His attempts were low because you cant throw the ball 10 times on a drive when you scored in 3 passes. See his TD% and YPA, from the article you posted.

Luck was 10th in attempts last season with 572 overall and an average of 35.75, call it 36. Foles averaged 29 attempts per game...I included the Saints game and it looks like you didnt and you may have included the Giants game which he didnt start. Anyway...

If Foles efficiency is going to take a ding (which you said it would) than averaging 6-10 more attempts per game is not at all out of the realm of possibility, in fact it's pretty much a given. IF he gets just 7 he will be in the top 10 in attempts..... per all your own reasons.

In your above argument the key factor you seem to have left out was Foles' efficiency and how that LOWERED his attempts.

I buy Latimer's talent a lot more. Sanders isn't a great talent, he'll start over Latimer this season but not after that more than likely. Welker is likely gone after this year. Which means I'm slotting Latimer in as the WR2 on the team in 2015. Which means he'll have 1-2 years of being Peyton's #2 WR and he'll have a year learning from Welker and DT which is invaluable type of mentorship. As for Adams, I think he beats out Boykin in camp for the #3 job on the team. And we've seen the ridiculous production the #3 WR on the Packers can bring.

As for you argument that Foles was so efficient that his regression will lead to more attempts, sure that's a possibility. But the other side to that coin is that it could also lead to a lot more punts as well. I think those two are a wash honestly. I still doubt he passes much more than he did last season. If at all.

And LawFitz, I said before I think he'll have a couple seasons as a WR2 but this season? I'm not buying him that high. I think he's a every year WR3/4 with the upside of a low end WR2 at his best. Character can only take you so far in this league, plenty of guys had amazing heart and it never amounted to anything. Not everyone with great character and work ethic can turn out to be Wes Welker, know what I mean?

 

[renesauz]

Just curious - who were the 15 WRs you had ahead of him?

I'm not going to give you a whole list as a lot of guys in dynasty leagues I still have yet to draft in know my forum name. But here are a few I liked before and after the draft more than Matthews. These are mostly guys I've always seen Matthews going before that I think should go before Matthews instead: Cody Latimer, Martavis Bryant & Davante Adams. I think it's silly to be taking him before any of those guys. There's a few others whose ADPs are much much lower than these guys whom I'm not listing here but I'd rather have than Matthews. And as I said, these were 15 before the draft I liked more not after.

When is your draft?

It's just sill to not have Latimer, Bryant and Adams ahaead of Matthews? I dont Mind the discussion but IMHO you most certainly are letting your rooting interests sway your opinion.

Says the guy with the Eagles avatar to the guy with the Giants avatar.

In all seriousness, it has literally nothing to do with his Eagles affiliation. I just don't think the kids that good. That's all there is too it. I also don't think he has as clear of a path to production as people seem to think. I've seen some crazy lofty projections for this guy and I'm not buying it. The Eagles reception productions went DeSean Jackson (82 rec), LeSean McCoy (52 rec), Riley Cooper (47 rec), Jason Avant (38 rec), Zach Ertz (36 rec) and Bent Celek (32 rec). Everyone else had less than 10 on the team. So Jackson is gone, fine. Avant is gone, fine. So there are now 120 receptions that need to be filled from last season. Well, Maclin is back and Cooper will be the WR2 now. So it stands to reason that Maclin or Cooper will see 70-80 receptions and the other will see 50-60. Meaning I see the max receptions he's likely to see is somewhere in the 25-40 range. And that's assuming that Ertz doesn't have the big year I think he's going to have. My guess on the breakdown this season will be something like this:

Maclin: 76 receptions

Cooper: 60 receptions

Ertz: 60 receptions

McCoy: 50 receptions

Celek: 30 receptions

Matthews: 25 receptions

And then we'll see about next season, gain I don't think he has what it takes to be an every year WR2/3. You know those guys who we look at and say "They do nothing great, but everything well" I look at Matthews and think "He does nothing good and every mediocre". Again I could be wrong, I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. Nobody can predict rookies 100% of the time. Yes Maclin's contract is up this season, Cooper is signed through 2017. And there's still next years draft to take into account as well. Yeah, I can see the path to a starting gig there. What I can't get behind is that the Eagles aren't a pass friendly offense under Kelly. They were 27th in passing attempts last season and I see no reason for them to have more this year. 508 attempts at Foles 64% comp rating is only 309 receptions to go around. Which means I'm probably even being lofty with my reception estimates above. You're saying I'm not taking into account situation and I think that's the problem you're having... I am taking into account. I don't see how and in what world the Eagles are a good situation for any WR. Nobody on this team is going to have a DeSean Jackson 16.2ypr style season. Just won't happen. And Foles isn't going to have a 13.5:1 TD ratio as it's essentially the best ratio of all time. I think Foles will be lucky to throw 30 TDs this year and I think he's going to throw significantly more INTs (somewhere around 10) compared to last season.

I'm not a biased Giants fan, I simply think if I'm going to own someone on this team it'll be Jeremy Maclin or LeSean McCoy, possibly Zach Ertz as a late round sleeper and I'll let everyone else fight for the remainder of the team. And in dynasty, I'd rather have guys after Matthews ADP than Matthews at his ADP, so I'll trade down and take a Cody Latimer over him.

This makes no sense at all. "Everything mediocre" doesn't set records in a major conferance. Period, end of story.

It's just fine to prefer 5 or 6 WRs in this class to Mathews, but some of the anti-Mathews posts are beyond absurd.

 

[ShaHBucks]

Just curious - who were the 15 WRs you had ahead of him?

I'm not going to give you a whole list as a lot of guys in dynasty leagues I still have yet to draft in know my forum name. But here are a few I liked before and after the draft more than Matthews. These are mostly guys I've always seen Matthews going before that I think should go before Matthews instead: Cody Latimer, Martavis Bryant & Davante Adams. I think it's silly to be taking him before any of those guys. There's a few others whose ADPs are much much lower than these guys whom I'm not listing here but I'd rather have than Matthews. And as I said, these were 15 before the draft I liked more not after.

When is your draft?

It's just sill to not have Latimer, Bryant and Adams ahaead of Matthews? I dont Mind the discussion but IMHO you most certainly are letting your rooting interests sway your opinion.

Says the guy with the Eagles avatar to the guy with the Giants avatar.

In all seriousness, it has literally nothing to do with his Eagles affiliation. I just don't think the kids that good. That's all there is too it. I also don't think he has as clear of a path to production as people seem to think. I've seen some crazy lofty projections for this guy and I'm not buying it. The Eagles reception productions went DeSean Jackson (82 rec), LeSean McCoy (52 rec), Riley Cooper (47 rec), Jason Avant (38 rec), Zach Ertz (36 rec) and Bent Celek (32 rec). Everyone else had less than 10 on the team. So Jackson is gone, fine. Avant is gone, fine. So there are now 120 receptions that need to be filled from last season. Well, Maclin is back and Cooper will be the WR2 now. So it stands to reason that Maclin or Cooper will see 70-80 receptions and the other will see 50-60. Meaning I see the max receptions he's likely to see is somewhere in the 25-40 range. And that's assuming that Ertz doesn't have the big year I think he's going to have. My guess on the breakdown this season will be something like this:

Maclin: 76 receptions

Cooper: 60 receptions

Ertz: 60 receptions

McCoy: 50 receptions

Celek: 30 receptions

Matthews: 25 receptions

And then we'll see about next season, gain I don't think he has what it takes to be an every year WR2/3. You know those guys who we look at and say "They do nothing great, but everything well" I look at Matthews and think "He does nothing good and every mediocre". Again I could be wrong, I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. Nobody can predict rookies 100% of the time. Yes Maclin's contract is up this season, Cooper is signed through 2017. And there's still next years draft to take into account as well. Yeah, I can see the path to a starting gig there. What I can't get behind is that the Eagles aren't a pass friendly offense under Kelly. They were 27th in passing attempts last season and I see no reason for them to have more this year. 508 attempts at Foles 64% comp rating is only 309 receptions to go around. Which means I'm probably even being lofty with my reception estimates above. You're saying I'm not taking into account situation and I think that's the problem you're having... I am taking into account. I don't see how and in what world the Eagles are a good situation for any WR. Nobody on this team is going to have a DeSean Jackson 16.2ypr style season. Just won't happen. And Foles isn't going to have a 13.5:1 TD ratio as it's essentially the best ratio of all time. I think Foles will be lucky to throw 30 TDs this year and I think he's going to throw significantly more INTs (somewhere around 10) compared to last season.

I'm not a biased Giants fan, I simply think if I'm going to own someone on this team it'll be Jeremy Maclin or LeSean McCoy, possibly Zach Ertz as a late round sleeper and I'll let everyone else fight for the remainder of the team. And in dynasty, I'd rather have guys after Matthews ADP than Matthews at his ADP, so I'll trade down and take a Cody Latimer over him.

This makes no sense at all. "Everything mediocre" doesn't set records in a major conferance. Period, end of story.It's just fine to prefer 5 or 6 WRs in this class to Mathews, but some of the anti-Mathews posts are beyond absurd.

Apparently, proving that you're lightyears beyond your peers in producing has no merit regardless of the level of competition you faced.

 

[WagesOfZin]

regardless of what happens, i think it's blatantly obvious this thread is going to be chock full of "SEE!?!??!!" for a long time to come.

You mean like every thread on these forums about a specific player? There's only two sides and one has to be right

no idea. i'm relatively new to posting here.

 

[Milkman]

Just curious - who were the 15 WRs you had ahead of him?

I'm not going to give you a whole list as a lot of guys in dynasty leagues I still have yet to draft in know my forum name. But here are a few I liked before and after the draft more than Matthews. These are mostly guys I've always seen Matthews going before that I think should go before Matthews instead: Cody Latimer, Martavis Bryant & Davante Adams. I think it's silly to be taking him before any of those guys. There's a few others whose ADPs are much much lower than these guys whom I'm not listing here but I'd rather have than Matthews. And as I said, these were 15 before the draft I liked more not after.

When is your draft?

It's just sill to not have Latimer, Bryant and Adams ahaead of Matthews? I dont Mind the discussion but IMHO you most certainly are letting your rooting interests sway your opinion.

Says the guy with the Eagles avatar to the guy with the Giants avatar.

In all seriousness, it has literally nothing to do with his Eagles affiliation. I just don't think the kids that good. That's all there is too it. I also don't think he has as clear of a path to production as people seem to think. I've seen some crazy lofty projections for this guy and I'm not buying it. The Eagles reception productions went DeSean Jackson (82 rec), LeSean McCoy (52 rec), Riley Cooper (47 rec), Jason Avant (38 rec), Zach Ertz (36 rec) and Bent Celek (32 rec). Everyone else had less than 10 on the team. So Jackson is gone, fine. Avant is gone, fine. So there are now 120 receptions that need to be filled from last season. Well, Maclin is back and Cooper will be the WR2 now. So it stands to reason that Maclin or Cooper will see 70-80 receptions and the other will see 50-60. Meaning I see the max receptions he's likely to see is somewhere in the 25-40 range. And that's assuming that Ertz doesn't have the big year I think he's going to have. My guess on the breakdown this season will be something like this:

Maclin: 76 receptions

Cooper: 60 receptions

Ertz: 60 receptions

McCoy: 50 receptions

Celek: 30 receptions

Matthews: 25 receptions

And then we'll see about next season, gain I don't think he has what it takes to be an every year WR2/3. You know those guys who we look at and say "They do nothing great, but everything well" I look at Matthews and think "He does nothing good and every mediocre". Again I could be wrong, I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. Nobody can predict rookies 100% of the time. Yes Maclin's contract is up this season, Cooper is signed through 2017. And there's still next years draft to take into account as well. Yeah, I can see the path to a starting gig there. What I can't get behind is that the Eagles aren't a pass friendly offense under Kelly. They were 27th in passing attempts last season and I see no reason for them to have more this year. 508 attempts at Foles 64% comp rating is only 309 receptions to go around. Which means I'm probably even being lofty with my reception estimates above. You're saying I'm not taking into account situation and I think that's the problem you're having... I am taking into account. I don't see how and in what world the Eagles are a good situation for any WR. Nobody on this team is going to have a DeSean Jackson 16.2ypr style season. Just won't happen. And Foles isn't going to have a 13.5:1 TD ratio as it's essentially the best ratio of all time. I think Foles will be lucky to throw 30 TDs this year and I think he's going to throw significantly more INTs (somewhere around 10) compared to last season.

I'm not a biased Giants fan, I simply think if I'm going to own someone on this team it'll be Jeremy Maclin or LeSean McCoy, possibly Zach Ertz as a late round sleeper and I'll let everyone else fight for the remainder of the team. And in dynasty, I'd rather have guys after Matthews ADP than Matthews at his ADP, so I'll trade down and take a Cody Latimer over him.

This makes no sense at all. "Everything mediocre" doesn't set records in a major conferance. Period, end of story.It's just fine to prefer 5 or 6 WRs in this class to Mathews, but some of the anti-Mathews posts are beyond absurd.

Apparently, proving that you're lightyears beyond your peers in producing has no merit regardless of the level of competition you faced.

Yeah because some white guy in the WAC or the MAC had 2000 yards receiving one year and never made it in the NFL.

 

[Khy]

Just curious - who were the 15 WRs you had ahead of him?

I'm not going to give you a whole list as a lot of guys in dynasty leagues I still have yet to draft in know my forum name. But here are a few I liked before and after the draft more than Matthews. These are mostly guys I've always seen Matthews going before that I think should go before Matthews instead: Cody Latimer, Martavis Bryant & Davante Adams. I think it's silly to be taking him before any of those guys. There's a few others whose ADPs are much much lower than these guys whom I'm not listing here but I'd rather have than Matthews. And as I said, these were 15 before the draft I liked more not after.

When is your draft?

It's just sill to not have Latimer, Bryant and Adams ahaead of Matthews? I dont Mind the discussion but IMHO you most certainly are letting your rooting interests sway your opinion.

Says the guy with the Eagles avatar to the guy with the Giants avatar.

In all seriousness, it has literally nothing to do with his Eagles affiliation. I just don't think the kids that good. That's all there is too it. I also don't think he has as clear of a path to production as people seem to think. I've seen some crazy lofty projections for this guy and I'm not buying it. The Eagles reception productions went DeSean Jackson (82 rec), LeSean McCoy (52 rec), Riley Cooper (47 rec), Jason Avant (38 rec), Zach Ertz (36 rec) and Bent Celek (32 rec). Everyone else had less than 10 on the team. So Jackson is gone, fine. Avant is gone, fine. So there are now 120 receptions that need to be filled from last season. Well, Maclin is back and Cooper will be the WR2 now. So it stands to reason that Maclin or Cooper will see 70-80 receptions and the other will see 50-60. Meaning I see the max receptions he's likely to see is somewhere in the 25-40 range. And that's assuming that Ertz doesn't have the big year I think he's going to have. My guess on the breakdown this season will be something like this:

Maclin: 76 receptions

Cooper: 60 receptions

Ertz: 60 receptions

McCoy: 50 receptions

Celek: 30 receptions

Matthews: 25 receptions

And then we'll see about next season, gain I don't think he has what it takes to be an every year WR2/3. You know those guys who we look at and say "They do nothing great, but everything well" I look at Matthews and think "He does nothing good and every mediocre". Again I could be wrong, I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. Nobody can predict rookies 100% of the time. Yes Maclin's contract is up this season, Cooper is signed through 2017. And there's still next years draft to take into account as well. Yeah, I can see the path to a starting gig there. What I can't get behind is that the Eagles aren't a pass friendly offense under Kelly. They were 27th in passing attempts last season and I see no reason for them to have more this year. 508 attempts at Foles 64% comp rating is only 309 receptions to go around. Which means I'm probably even being lofty with my reception estimates above. You're saying I'm not taking into account situation and I think that's the problem you're having... I am taking into account. I don't see how and in what world the Eagles are a good situation for any WR. Nobody on this team is going to have a DeSean Jackson 16.2ypr style season. Just won't happen. And Foles isn't going to have a 13.5:1 TD ratio as it's essentially the best ratio of all time. I think Foles will be lucky to throw 30 TDs this year and I think he's going to throw significantly more INTs (somewhere around 10) compared to last season.

I'm not a biased Giants fan, I simply think if I'm going to own someone on this team it'll be Jeremy Maclin or LeSean McCoy, possibly Zach Ertz as a late round sleeper and I'll let everyone else fight for the remainder of the team. And in dynasty, I'd rather have guys after Matthews ADP than Matthews at his ADP, so I'll trade down and take a Cody Latimer over him.

This makes no sense at all. "Everything mediocre" doesn't set records in a major conferance. Period, end of story.It's just fine to prefer 5 or 6 WRs in this class to Mathews, but some of the anti-Mathews posts are beyond absurd.

Apparently, proving that you're lightyears beyond your peers in producing has no merit regardless of the level of competition you faced.

Yeah because some white guy in the WAC or the MAC had 2000 yards receiving one year and never made it in the NFL.

Yeah, you're both so correct. I forgot that the SEC is so notorious for their WR talent. I've already proved in this thread several times, the SEC last season was far from a top division when it came to passing defense. The numbers all show it. So Matthews 'exploding' on the SEC defenses really means little to me. As for the 'some white guy from the WAC or MAC" comment... I fail to see what being a white guy has to do with anything. The simple fact is there's only 4 SEC players on the all time list. And of those 4 only one has had a fantasy relevant season (Jeffery). Even Julio Jones only posted 78/1133/7 in his SEC career. Matthews didn't actually play good competition THAT is the entire issue I have with the argument. He played one team that ranked in the Top 25 in pass defense in the nation and he was shut down.

I really don't understand the problem here. He produced against SEC competition BIG DEAL. Using the Top 250 College Receiving Career's in History. I sorted out JUST the SEC players. Here's what we find:

Players highlighted in RED were never drafted. Played in GREEN were drafted and have their round/slot next to them. Players who are in BOLD produced at least 1 Top 24 (WR2) fantasy season in their NFL career using the basis of 180 total points.

27. Jordan Matthews

112. Ryan Swope - Round 6 (174th)

121. Terrence Edwards

122. Jeff Fuller

135. Alshon Jeffery

151. Josh Reed - Round 2 (36th)

162. Boo Mitchell

179. D.J. Hall

187. Craig Yeast - 4th Round (98th)

191. Fred Gibson

194. Dan Stricker

195. Anthony Lucas

206. Cobi Hamilton - 6th Round (197th)

208. Earl Bennett - 3rd Round (70th)

218. Joey Kent - 2nd Round (46th)

231. Kenny McKinley - 5th Round (141st)

That's them, the career SEC greats. We have one, count them ONE Top 24 performance by a top end college producing SEC WR in the history of the game. That's it. Yet people here are trying to say I'm crazy for not acknowledging how amazing Jordan Matthews was against the SEC. Big-friggin-deal. Clearly, with the exception of Alshon Jeffery, nobody else from that division produced well, regardless of how amazing a college career they had in the SEC. Also before you go off on a tangent of 'BUT MATTHEWS IS 27TH ALL TIME COMPARED TO THE NEXT AT 112 ALL TIME!?!?!?!!!!!!!!#@#!!!"

Here is the list of guys above Jordan Matthews on the All-Time College list:

1. Trevor Insley

2. Ryan Broyles

3. Marcus Harris

4. Patrick Edwards

5. Rashaun Woods

6. Ryan Yarborough

7. Troy Edwards

8. Greg Salas

9. Aaron Turner

10. Terance Mathis

11. Geoff Noisy

12. Jordan White

13. Jerett Dillard

14. Darius Watts

15. Kendall Wright

16. Troy Walters

17. Derek Hagan

18. Mike Hass,

19. Jason Rivers

20. Josh Davis

21. Roy Williams

22. Emmanuel Sanders

23. John Standeford

24. Vincent Marshall

25. David Williams

26. Chad Mackey

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, that is quite the list of NFL greats there folks.

Here's a tip, typically the great NFL WR's who come from college are snapped up long before they have any remote chance of producing the way Matthews has over the past 3 years. The reason all these guys are so high on this list and yet never made a name for themselves in the pros is because none of them were every really good enough to declare for the draft. Can we seriously stop bringing up Matthews college stats against the SEC as proof of anything.

Hell, if anything? His amazing college production seems to me to say that it's about 200x more likely he'll be awful then he'll succeed. He'll be fighting an uphill battle for success as only 1 WR from the SEC has produced like him in college and then had a top season in the NFL. The rest, either got snapped up before they broke out or were out of the league in a couple years.

 

[Milkman]

LOL at least you got one thing right. The reason the best NFL receivers are not high on the all time records list is because they typically only play 3 years. Still it doesn't make Matthews any less likely to succeed in the NFL. Why you don't understand that I don't know.

I mean it's not like he's 23-24 years old. He's 21 years old.

 

[Khy]

LOL at least you got one thing right. The reason the best NFL receivers are not high on the all time records list is because they typically only play 3 years. Still it doesn't make Matthews any less likely to succeed in the NFL. Why you don't understand that I don't know.

I mean it's not like he's 23-24 years old. He's 21 years old.

If you drink the Matthews KoolAid any harder you'll start to turn red, be careful.

Also, I have yet to see you make one constructive post as to why you feel Matthews is going to be so good. All you've done is sit here and quote me with "LOL"'s and "ROFL TROLL" the whole time.

 

[Milkman]

Read the thread Khy. I'm all through this mother. You're right though I absolutely love Matthews. I think he has as good of a chance as anybody to be the top WR in this draft.

 

[Khy]

Read the thread Khy. I'm all through this mother. You're right though I absolutely love Matthews. I think he has as good of a chance as anybody to be the top WR in this draft.

 

[Milkman]

It's funny though. Khy doesn't think Matthews will amount to anymore than a WR3 or WR4 but after a few OTA's there are whispers he is already the Eagles WR1.

 

[Milkman]

lol Khy.

 

[werdnoynek]

It's funny though. Khy doesn't think Matthews will amount to anymore than a WR3 or WR4 but after a few OTA's there are whispers he is already the Eagles WR1.

Running in shorts and a helmet! Crown him now! /thread

 

[Khy]

It's funny though. Khy doesn't think Matthews will amount to anymore than a WR3 or WR4 but after a few OTA's there are whispers he is already the Eagles WR1.

Yeah by the Philadelphia Inquirer's Jimmy Kempski. This same guy has had like every other tweet be about how amazing Jordan Matthews is since the day of the draft. So obviously, he's a little biased and also the ONLY PERSON saying anything about Matthews right now. Maybe this is your first experience with June coach and beat writer speak... but it's 90% bs and 10% misdirection. Often the guys getting talked up in June are the same guys riding the bench in September.

 

[Milkman]

Welp there it is. He excels in college football and it doesn't count. Matter of fact Khy thinks it's a negative that Matthews broke SEC receiving records and that it all but guarantees he's going to bust. Then when news comes out that Matthews has impressed everybody at camp that doesn't count because it's in shorts and likely just a fluff piece. Admittedly Matthews hasn't proven anything yet but I'm still eagerly anticipating the next round of excuses.

 

[Khy]

Welp there it is. He excels in college football and it doesn't count. Matter of fact Khy thinks it's a negative that Matthews broke SEC receiving records and that it all but guarantees he's going to bust. Then when news comes out that Matthews has impressed everybody at camp that doesn't count because it's in shorts and likely just a fluff piece. Admittedly Matthews hasn't proven anything yet but I'm still eagerly anticipating the next round of excuses.

I never said it was a negative. I said it wasn't a positive and IF ANYTHING it was more of a negative as only one of the guys on that list had a top 20 season. The rest washed out. Also, someone else mentioned the shorts thing. And yeah, it's clearly a fluff piece. You'd be really ignorant to take any June camp news at face value.

 

[jurb26]

Every rookie is a future All Pro this time of year. The OTA noise should be drown out as best you can. Perhaps with beer.

 

[Khy]

Every rookie is a future All Pro this time of year. The OTA noise should be drown out as best you can. Perhaps with beer.

Again, my whole point on the kid this entire time has been: ignore coach speak, ignore his college production. It's all irrelevant. Look at his actual skill set at the position. He's a mediocre to average talent at best. In a average to above average situation. He'll be a career WE 3 to 4 with one or two WR2 seasons sprinkled in the mix.

 

[Brewtown]

Every rookie is a future All Pro this time of year. The OTA noise should be drown out as best you can. Perhaps with beer.

I drown out the OTA noise this way - I also drown out almost every Sunday this way as well....

I drown out my girlfriends noise this way as well...

Beer - the remedy for everything in my book.

 

[ShaHBucks]

Welp there it is. He excels in college football and it doesn't count. Matter of fact Khy thinks it's a negative that Matthews broke SEC receiving records and that it all but guarantees he's going to bust. Then when news comes out that Matthews has impressed everybody at camp that doesn't count because it's in shorts and likely just a fluff piece. Admittedly Matthews hasn't proven anything yet but I'm still eagerly anticipating the next round of excuses.

I never said it was a negative. I said it wasn't a positive and IF ANYTHING it was more of a negative as only one of the guys on that list had a top 20 season. The rest washed out. Also, someone else mentioned the shorts thing. And yeah, it's clearly a fluff piece. You'd be really ignorant to take any June camp news at face value.

We know it all until we find out something new, they say. We like to think of numbers as "cold hard facts". Here is a list, so I have the right answer. It's not that easy, obviously. No one uses raw totals as the end all be all, anymore, for many reasons. There are much more sophisticated statistics available today.

 

[Xue]

Welp there it is. He excels in college football and it doesn't count. Matter of fact Khy thinks it's a negative that Matthews broke SEC receiving records and that it all but guarantees he's going to bust. Then when news comes out that Matthews has impressed everybody at camp that doesn't count because it's in shorts and likely just a fluff piece. Admittedly Matthews hasn't proven anything yet but I'm still eagerly anticipating the next round of excuses.

I never said it was a negative. I said it wasn't a positive and IF ANYTHING it was more of a negative as only one of the guys on that list had a top 20 season. The rest washed out. Also, someone else mentioned the shorts thing. And yeah, it's clearly a fluff piece. You'd be really ignorant to take any June camp news at face value.

We know it all until we find out something new, they say. We like to think of numbers as "cold hard facts". Here is a list, so I have the right answer. It's not that easy, obviously. No one uses raw totals as the end all be all, anymore, for many reasons. There are much more sophisticated statistics available today.

Yup. Here's how Matthews stacks up from a "ratio" perspective to some recent high profile SEC WRs.

https://lifesyourcupfb.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/matthews-julio-jeffery-green.png

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

Eagles second-round pick Jordan Matthews is sprinkling in with the first-team offense at minicamp.
Brad Smith was the first-team slot receiver at OTAs, but that was never going to last. 6-foot-3, 212-pound Matthews will play the Marques Colston role in Chip Kelly's offense, with Jeremy Maclin and Riley Cooper aligned outside. A star of OTAs so far, Matthews is worth considering late in fantasy drafts.

Source: Philadelphia Inquirer

The actual excerpt from the linked article:

During one kick return drill, it looked like Kelly had some loud instruction for Jordan Matthews after he appeared to do something wrong. Kelly called the rookie over for a brief chat afterward. The abbreviated return drill pitted four cover men versus an up blocker and a return man. The four started from cones with two lined up seven yards ahead of the other two at around the 25-yard line. They then ran toward the returner, past a blocker holding a pad, to make the play.

Darren Sproles, Josh Huff, Jeremy Maclin, Damaris Johnson, Riley Cooper and Matthews have taken most of the kick returner reps this spring. Kelly was asked about the competition and mentioned Sproles’ experience first and then Huff.

 

[WagesOfZin]

yeah....i'm not seeing any mention of matthews working with the 1's in offensive drills in that article.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Different article but from one I posted in the Eagles thread after yesterday's practice:

FOLES TO MATTHEWS FOR PLAY OF THE DAY:

It came early in the day during a seven-on-seven drill, but Foles had one of his better throws of a very impressive spring Wednesday. Foles dropped back and lifted a pass over the giant fly-swatters worn on the shoulders of assistant coaches at the line of scrimmage designed to simulate defenders blocking passing lanes, and placed the ball perfectly into the outstretched hands of wide receiver Jordan Matthews who made the catch between Connor Barwin and Nate Allen.

 

[Milkman]

Running with the 1's!!!!!!!!!!!

It's happening!!!!!!!!

 

[Bigboy10182000]

And take from this what you want:

@Jeff_McLane: #Eagles practice observations: Barkley's struggles; Carroll stands out; Sanchez-Matthews bromance is back; Much more: http://t.co/zFOeWUL1oj

-- Jordan Matthews continued to work in repetitions with the first team offense. He made a leaping 30-yard grab when Foles lofted a pass over the middle. Not all of Matthews work with the starters was in the slot. On one play, he was flanked left, Jeremy Maclin was flanked right and Riley Cooper and Smith were inside in the slots.

 

[Milkman]

Lol already moving him all over just like college. Doesn't guarantee success buts it's still good news.

 

[MattFancy]

Seems to be alot of good press coming out about Matthews so far. Glad I traded for him a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Khy]

Lol already moving him all over just like college. Doesn't guarantee success buts it's still good news.

From the sound of it he played a very small amount of first team reps and on "ONE" play he was flanked outside instead of in the slot. Hooooooeeeee, talk about being moved around. Every WR is going to get time at each spot just to see if their skills transfer well or not.

 

[Milkman]

I think my statement was well balanced khy. It doesn't guarantee success but it's still positive.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

@JimmyKempski: Eagles minicamp practice notes: Jordan Matthews, Nick Foles continue to impress

http://t.co/j2InsdDUus

 

[John Paul]

I'd like for the posters here to do a roll call, for scouting's sake. Two years ago, at this time of the off season, who here was posting that Alshon Jeffery was going to be a #1 receiver for dynasty teams? Who here was posting that Jeffery was not going to be a #1 receiver in dynasty?

No need to drone on about what has happened since that changed your mind or did not, just simply a yes or no. Either way we can gleen who can 'see' things well enough to hold their scouting skills seriously.

The point is we can take non-mainstream internet rankings and get value out of their mistakes. I.E., players like Jeffery or even Jordy Nelson years before. Not every 1st rounder is a stud, we all know this. But I'd like to see someone back their call up with links to their calls.

I can't do it because I wasn't posting back then, but I will be doing this when Matthews breaks out or fails.

Just curious who is willing to do this with such a polarizing player.

 

[WagesOfZin]

wasn't posting here until recently, but i passed on jeffery in a dynasty rookie draft in favor of brian friggin quick.

this year, i passed on cooks and ODB in favor of matthews.

 

[John Paul]

Also, for the record, I am a pro Matthews guy.

 

[Milkman]

Everybody is gong to be pro Matthews in a year or two..........

 

[Khy]

wasn't posting here until recently, but i passed on jeffery in a dynasty rookie draft in favor of brian friggin quick.

this year, i passed on cooks and ODB in favor of matthews.

So, you're saying we should probably stop drafting Matthews then right?

In all seriousness though, I don't think saying that he lined up for a few plays the ones and one of those pays was from the outside anything truly groundbreaking. By the end of mini camp you'll hear the same about just about every healthy receiver drafted early.

Also, just because we're not hearing reports about it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. We haven't had a report every time Watkins, Evans, OBJ, Cooks, Adams took a first team snap but I guarantee it's happening. To me it seems the media or possibly just rotoworld is really trying to push the Matthews agenda and that type of stuff rarely turns out well.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

wasn't posting here until recently, but i passed on jeffery in a dynasty rookie draft in favor of brian friggin quick.

this year, i passed on cooks and ODB in favor of matthews.

So, you're saying we should probably stop drafting Matthews then right?

In all seriousness though, I don't think saying that he lined up for a few plays the ones and one of those pays was from the outside anything truly groundbreaking. By the end of mini camp you'll hear the same about just about every healthy receiver drafted early.

Also, just because we're not hearing reports about it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. We haven't had a report every time Watkins, Evans, OBJ, Cooks, Adams took a first team snap but I guarantee it's happening. To me it seems the media or possibly just rotoworld is really trying to push the Matthews agenda and that type of stuff rarely turns out well.

Go to Twitter

Follow sports writers of those teams

Enjoy

 

[Khy]

wasn't posting here until recently, but i passed on jeffery in a dynasty rookie draft in favor of brian friggin quick.

this year, i passed on cooks and ODB in favor of matthews.

So, you're saying we should probably stop drafting Matthews then right?In all seriousness though, I don't think saying that he lined up for a few plays the ones and one of those pays was from the outside anything truly groundbreaking. By the end of mini camp you'll hear the same about just about every healthy receiver drafted early.

Also, just because we're not hearing reports about it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. We haven't had a report every time Watkins, Evans, OBJ, Cooks, Adams took a first team snap but I guarantee it's happening. To me it seems the media or possibly just rotoworld is really trying to push the Matthews agenda and that type of stuff rarely turns out well.

Go to Twitter

Follow sports writers of those teams

Enjoy

I'm aware the best writers are tweeting the same stuff about the guys I listed above. That's my exact point, why is rotoworld sensationalistic in regards to Matthews but not the others?

 

[WagesOfZin]

wasn't posting here until recently, but i passed on jeffery in a dynasty rookie draft in favor of brian friggin quick.

this year, i passed on cooks and ODB in favor of matthews.

So, you're saying we should probably stop drafting Matthews then right?

oooooooo!!!!! sick burn.

 

[jurb26]

You guys realize it's just OTAs, right? I mean wow. I get that there is positive "news" but seriously, it's OTAs.

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

Eagles rookie WR Jordan Matthews is "likely to emerge as the No. 1 slot guy this summer."
Most of Matthews' offseason snaps have come with the second team, but the reality is he is the most talented option the Eagles have. Matthews will begin the season as the slot option in three-receiver sets, and could start stealing outside snaps from Riley Cooper as the season progresses. Matthews is worth a flier in redraft formats and is a first-round rookie pick in Dynasty leagues.

Source: Philly Mag: Birds 24/7

 

[Faust]

Rookie Matthews takes workouts in stride

By Andy Jasner | ESPN.com

The Philadelphia Eagles traded up 12 spots to select wide receiver Jordan Matthews from Vanderbilt in the NFL draft.

They moved up from No. 54 to No. 42 and grabbed the ultra-talented Matthews early in the second round.

Since being drafted by the Eagles, Matthews has gone through OTAs and a recently-held mandatory minicamp.

It has been a whirlwind.

"I think I did all right," Matthews told CSNPhilly.com. "The main two things that I always want to control are my attitude and my effort, so I feel like I was able to come out and give 100 percent. I just have to continue to get better at the little things, too. It's been great, informative, definitely a great learning environment. I can't ask to be part of a better team, a better organization.

"Coach [Chip] Kelly, Coach Bick [bob Bicknell], Coach Pat [shurmur], they've all made it a great atmosphere for me to come here and get better and I appreciate that. Now I just have to go out there and make plays for them."

Matthews completed his career with the Commodores with 242 receptions and 3,759 yards, both SEC records.

Since the Eagles released three-time Pro Bowl wide receiver DeSean Jackson, Matthews is likely to earn plenty of snaps as a rookie.

Training camp hasn't even started, and Matthews is well aware of what type of work needs to be done.

"There's no 'teams,'" Matthews said. "Everybody's trying out, everybody's trying to get better. We'll find out what teams are once we get to [opening day] Sept. 7. When I'm in there with Nick [Foles], when I'm in there with Mark [sanchez], when I'm in there with Matt [barkley] or with G.J. [Kinne] it's all the same thing, I'm just trying to go out there and get better."

 

[Bigboy10182000]

You guys realize it's just OTAs, right? I mean wow. I get that there is positive "news" but seriously, it's OTAs.

And it goes both ways too. If he as running with the 3rd team and dropping passes this thread would be a lot different.

 

[lakerstan]

More good news from the hype train. Working out with CJ and AJ Green.

http://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2014/06/jordan_matthews_to_train_with_calvin_johnson_aj_green_during_offseason.html

 

[Milkman]

Lol this is so awesome. There's your WR5. Hahahaha

 

[Khy]

Lol this is so awesome. There's your WR5. Hahahaha

Dude hasn't even caught a pass wearing pads yet and you're already crowning him. Relax.

 

[Milkman]

WR5 Khy. Lololol