Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
The response time is ridiculous too. The company I work for (as in-house legal counsel) owns and manages 4 apartment complexes. Our standard is to have a maintenance person on-site no later than the next day.
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Terminated lease early - Advice Needed (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter doowain
- Start date
doowain
Footballguy
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
This was probably your biggest mistake. I would have withheld that until I got an agreement from them to accept that payment as full and final settlement of your account.
You don't have much leverage now, other than to propose to make some compromise payment just to avoid the hassle.
cstu
Footballguy
So all you have to do to break a lease is to complain twice about cigarette smoke that may or may not have been your own? Good to know.
doowain
Footballguy
I know you are talking in general terms here, but I don't smoke and never have. It makes me physically ill to breathe it.
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
There are mutual covenants between landlord and tenant. While you minimize it, landlord has not performed up to an acceptable standard here. There is no indication that doowain contributed in any way to the 'smoke' issue and the Landlord continually failed to remedy the situation. I don't think doowain was being at all "confrontational" when he was insisting that he be provided with the living quarters for which he bargained.
Additionally, the landlord has the duty to mitigate its damages if tenant does vacate early. The tenant gave plenty of notice that he would be vacating and the landlord (presumably) failed to mitigate the damages. Who knows? Maybe they did re-rent the apartment and are looking to 'double dip'
Normally, I am on board with many here. You signed a contract, honor your word. Just remember that this is a two-way street. If he contracts to buy a Ferrarri and the seller shows up with a Kia, he isn't obligated to complete the transaction. So the question is whether or not the failure to fix the smoke issue is a material breach of his covenant of quiet enjoyment. I would suggest that their slow response and failure to remedy the problem is a material enough breach that it caused him and his family to exit the lease prior to when he wanted to. You guys may have different threshholds. There is nothing unreasonable or unlawful about his, and so I wouldn't allow the landlord to attempt to strong-arm him into making a payment when in the end, they're unlikely to pursue it. If it ends up in small claims, I'd be perfectly comfortable presenting the set of facts here and arguing breach and constructive eviction. If the magistrate sees it the other way, fine. Then make the payment. But I don't think the magistrate will find for the landlord on these facts. Landlord has possession of the unit back and was fairly compensated for the time the unit was occupied.
Green and Gold
Footballguy
Look at it this way. If you've never lost an early termination suit, it must mean that you keep your property maintained and don't try to screw your tenants. Therefore the only people you've had to deal with are the scumbags who do anything they can to avoid paying rent. Your knee-jerk negative reaction to what the OP wrote is based on dealing with those kinds of people, and probably doesn't apply in this case.
sbonomo
Footballguy
Maybe I misread something but it sounds like that's exactly what you did without talking to them? like I said, maybe I missed something. Anyhow, if they decide to sue you are going to lose and like I said earlier and you are going to end up paying more than originally owed. Just my $.02
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Contact someone with actual power. Explain the situation nicely and present your view. Make sure you aren't the one sounding like some jerk off on a power trip or whatever else. Present your original offer. See what they say.
sbonomo
Footballguy
Here is a good example: I had an AC unit go out in phoenix a few summer back. It takes forever to get someone out there to fix (actually ended up needing to be replace which took a few days). I put the tenants up in a hotel room (I didn't have to do this) until the started complaining it too far away (it was less than 5-miles from the house). As luck would have it the strain from having a unit down killed the second unit. having remembered the lack of thankfulness for me footing the bill for the hotel I didn't offer the second time. Now it was an inconvenience that the AC unit(s) went out but sh it happens. I had them replaced with 2-3 days each time it occurred. These idiot tenants decided to try and terminate the lease. Unfortunately for them, the judge agreed with me that I had done more than required as a landlord. I was able to sue for the remainder of the lease (I think it was six months) plus damages. At the end of the day I kept the deposit and they now have a lien filed for six months of rent. I get calls every so often about credit for them....pretty sure they have never been accepted to rental that has contacted me.
gianmarco
Footballguy
What does that have to do with this situation here that wasn't handled in a timely manner like yours? Or for multiple months of unpaid rent and termination?
nirad3
Footballguy
sbonomo
Footballguy
They sent a maintenance person over twice. I don't know anything about this rental or the person complaining but they were trying to fix the problem. I highly doubt this is as cut or dry as you are making it out to be. Yes as a landlord i can tell you horror stories of people complaining about the stupids things. Believe me judges are not as pro tenant as you think.
sbonomo
Footballguy
Fast forward to September. Weather starts to get colder and all of the sudden we start to smell cigarette smoke in our apartment (neither of us smoke). Mainly the kitchen and laundry room. Not terrible, but definitely noticeable. I had the maintenance guy over for an unrelated issue and mentioned it to him. He said to let him know if it gets worse.
A few weeks later in mid-late October, I walk in to the kitchen and hit a wall of smoke. It centered around the stove area and again in the laundry room. I call the management office. It's after hours, so I put in a Maintenance Request. Guy comes out a couple days later. He says "we get this all the time". That's funny, this never happened in the entire year we were here before. He proceeds to change the air filter and use the "foam in a can" stuff to seal around any spaces in the kitchen and laundry room it could be coming from. OK, cool.
I still don't understand this, Is it a non smoking complex? How much do people have to smoke to "fill" your house? I would imagine that you would need a house full of people chain smoking to get to the level you are talking about above. What exactly is it leaking through? how old/run down are these places? Something just doesn't add up to me.
A few weeks later in mid-late October, I walk in to the kitchen and hit a wall of smoke. It centered around the stove area and again in the laundry room. I call the management office. It's after hours, so I put in a Maintenance Request. Guy comes out a couple days later. He says "we get this all the time". That's funny, this never happened in the entire year we were here before. He proceeds to change the air filter and use the "foam in a can" stuff to seal around any spaces in the kitchen and laundry room it could be coming from. OK, cool.
I still don't understand this, Is it a non smoking complex? How much do people have to smoke to "fill" your house? I would imagine that you would need a house full of people chain smoking to get to the level you are talking about above. What exactly is it leaking through? how old/run down are these places? Something just doesn't add up to me.
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Bucky86
Footballguy
My guess is a new neighbor is smoking on his balcony. Unless it's a non-smoking apartment building then I'm not sure theres much that can be done? No window will 100% keep cigarette smoke out if it's some chain smoker going through 3 packs a day.
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nirad3
Footballguy
Do you disagree that the OP gave the LL every chance to remedy the quiet enjoyment covenant of the lease?
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/quiet+enjoyment
The OP gave the LL's authorized agent two opportunities to fix the problem and they failed.
Perhaps in your cases, the tenants were jackholes that tried to skirt paying rent, but in this case it's my opinion the tenant gave the LL fair opportunity and they were in breach of contract.
Bucky86
Footballguy
nirad3
Footballguy
Interesting - I would see that having legs in a condo (or even SFR) environment but guessed in an apartment/for-rent situation that it would tie back to the lease and/or community guidelines.
sbonomo
Footballguy
These folks tried to terminate their lease over it as well due to, "unsafe" living conditions (110 outside). The judge agreed things happen with homes and a landlord has a reasonable amount if time to remedy. Based on op's story I think he is going to be SOL if the take him to court.
sbonomo
Footballguy
I think the op is vastly exaggerating the problem. Sounds like they came over twice. How in the world is that much smoke getting into his house from next door? Big he told me it was a fire place I guess I could see it but from a cigarette? I am not buying it. And for him to unilaterally decide to just stop paying rent....he is going to end up with a lien against his credit or paying for rent and expenses is my opinion.
doowain
Footballguy
Unfortunately I already did that with the Rental Manager. I wasn't rude or confrontational. I explained the entire situation and told her why we had to leave. It wasn't that we wanted to leave. It's that we HAD to leave. She understood but said (paraphrasing) "Whether you stay or leave you still have to pay out your lease or you can pay an early termination fee and a fee per month until your lease is up". She came off snippy and pushy. Zero humility (for the smoke or the maintenance guys inability to fix it) or a shred of care on her part.
doowain
Footballguy
I still don't see your points of view. I gave them two opportunities to fix it. Hell, if I saw any improvement from what they were doing I'd be more understanding. But there was none, which is odd considering the maintenance guys had told me they have it happen all the time.
I told them from the start that it seemed to be coming through the vents somehow (not through cracks under the sink, etc where they shot expanding foam). The fact that it was coming from the stove and near the HVAC in the laundry room should've been a clue, but they never even focused in those areas.
Just because they were "trying to fix the problem" doesn't give them a pass. Say there was water leaking in the apartment. They showed up and fixed one pipe but the apartment continued to fill with water. Should I just shrug my shoulders, throw on a scuba tank and live with it?
doowain
Footballguy
~15 years old. Nice complex. Rent ranges anywhere from $1100-$2500 which is pretty nice for Ohio.
Smoke was coming through near stove and HVAC in laundry room. The apartment wasn't filled with smoke (when did I say that?). You could literally walk into the kitchen and the smoke would smack you in the face. Same with the laundry room. It's as if someone was standing in their kitchen or laundry room directly below us or next to us smoking.
I don't know what you are looking for....if I knew how it was happening I'd have told them.
doowain
Footballguy
Unfortunately this scenario isn't possible. We were 2nd floor and the kitchen/laundry is essentially in the center of the building (another unit on the other side of the one wall and a big open stairwell for entry into the units on the other). No balconies near this area of the apartment and there was never anyone in the stairwell smoking.
doowain
Footballguy
We get it. You think all renters are scumbags looking to scam you. It sucks that you've had to deal with deadbeat tenants that are looking to get out of rent.
Unfortunately you are way off on this. We are talking about $700 here, not months and months at the end of a lease. That money is not going to break me. I wouldn't even miss it. I'm not the type of person who would bail on paying out a contract that I felt was being upheld on the other end. This is more about making a point as they accepted no responsibility or offered any remedies to the situation (no, I don't count their half assed attempts to fix the issue a remedy).
Bucky86
Footballguy
That would be up to a judge to decide. Seems like they would argue that they tried different remedies and the next steps would be to notify the smoking attendant and possibly evict them. They do need to cover their own asses as well.
doowain
Footballguy
I wish that were true. They tried one remedy twice. I was there both times.
I asked the maintenance guy if he knew who was smoking (in the hopes I could appeal to them about my son). He told me he knew who it was but couldn't give me that information.
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sbonomo
Footballguy
If it really is not a big deal to you then why not just go with you original plan and move in slowly? You could move you beds and whatever is needed to live in the new house immediately and do the maintenance you mentioned in the op. Why all the drama? That's what leads me to believe we are not getting 100% of the story. Anyhow good luck too you. Hope the move goes well.doowain said:
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doowain
Footballguy
This just proves that you haven't followed along very well (or even fully read the OP), so your opinion means little to me. We moved out in January.
You clearly aren't going to see it from my point of view or believe me when I say I've given all of the facts, so I don't know why you bother. So, to quote you, "pound sand".
ETA: If "what" isn't a big deal? The money? The smoke? Following your line of thinking is a mystery.
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doowain
Footballguy
sbonomo
Footballguy
The money, which i thought you had made abundantly clear based on your quote: "That money is not going to break me. I wouldn't even miss it". The smoke has obviously gotten your panties in a wad, so not sure why i would be talking about that. As i can see from your post earlier post you ended up paying so i guess your irratation is/was that i am right? Anyhow, seems as though you have gotten worked up enough about this. If you would have just noted early on that you ended up paying and stopped trying to defend a bad stance you could have saved us all a lot of time trying to understand. No need to respond.
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
He didn't pay for all of January. He said he "paid what he owed" which he believes is the amount through the date of his move-out.
He has a legitimate gripe about the landlord allowing an untenable situation to continue. He's taken action informed by his sincere belief that the landlord breached their duty. The landlord is entitled to disagree and has done so here. This can be resolved in a number of ways from here: 1) They can negotiate a settlement of the account. Both parties may compromise their positions to resolve the matter. 2) The Landlord can bring an action in small claims court. This would allow the magistrate to determine whose beliefs regarding the lease and the property are correct (if either is 100%). Worst case, the magistrate finds for the Landlord and OP pays the rent through the term and court fees (which are not extreme), or 3) account gets submitted to a collection agency, OP notifies collection agency that OP disputes the debt and it sits there, not doing anything ad nauseum.
OP's complaint is legitimate. Doesn't mean he'll prevail. Doesn't mean he won't. But it certainly doesn't offend any moral or legal standard for him to stand up for himself and make his case. It's why we have magistrates and courts and impartial arbiters. If he loses in court, I'm sure he'll make good. But he deserves his day there, not in front of this kangaroo court. Good luck, OP.
sbonomo
Footballguy
Spoken like a true attorney. I guess i took his comment that he "paid in full what is owed", as actually paying his bill, not what he deemed as fair.....whatever. I don't think that i ever have said he does not deserve his day in court, i have only told him that he will lose which is my opinion. Last he brought his issue to kangaroo court, i am just commenting. That's what happens when you post on a public forum. I hope he does go to court and give us a summary of what happened. I guaranty i won't lose a minute of sleep over it either way.
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
That would have been a much better response if you led with it. Instead you seem to have take some personal offense as if he were your tenant and you accused him of being confrontational while in the same breath telling him to go pound sand.
xulf
Footballguy
I won't say who is right or who is wrong because o honestly don't know and I don't know how I would be in the situation. I own a rental unit where we have had to evict someone for non-payment and someone left early...breaking a 2 year lease less than one year in and didn't pay the break fee or the December rent where they were there for 10 days and didn't move out nicely (all within 2.5 years of ownership). It took us 3 months to re-rent during this crappy weather time...so we ate thousands of dollars.
I get wanting out of a ####ty situation and nobody deserves that, but people #### over landlords a #### ton of times.
I get wanting out of a ####ty situation and nobody deserves that, but people #### over landlords a #### ton of times.
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doowain
Footballguy
sbonomo
Footballguy
[SIZE=11pt]I will have an occasional cigarette at the bar on a random weekend night if i am piss drunk, lets say 3-4x per year.[/SIZE] I actually am more like you, I think that it is disgusting habit and have no idea how someone could smoke in thier home.
nirad3
Footballguy
So if smoke were coming into your home, be it physical smoke or just the smell, wouldn't you want something done about it?
This is starting to get a little comical.
sbonomo
Footballguy
You are definitely getting back to my original question of how can that much smoke be coming into his place. Also, having been a home owner for year's i tend to fix things myself. I would have located the problem and if it was as easy as adding caulking or foam to an open exposed area (still have no idea how this can happen) i would either point it out to the handyman or spend the $3.00 and 15 minutes to fix it myself.
So if smoke were coming into your home, be it physical smoke or just the smell, wouldn't you want something done about it?
We need azron to draw one of his famous diagrams here so that i get a better picture of how a "wall of smoke" hits inside a condo (or apartment, can't remember which) from next door. Is there a sheet up for the wall or a temporary barrier or something.
doowain
Footballguy
Of course he would want something done. Just like any sane person would. And he would find two attempts to fix it that didn't improve it at all unacceptable. But he is responding solely from the biased perspective of a landlord and not a tenant.
So if smoke were coming into your home, be it physical smoke or just the smell, wouldn't you want something done about it?
He doesn't and won't get it. His only rationale is that I'm lying or at the very least exaggerating the issue. Which makes no sense for me to do on a public forum considering I'm looking for advice/opinions and not to sway y'all to be on my side. That would accomplish nothing.
The only other alternative to me leaving would've been to request a different apartment. With only 3 weeks left in the lease that simply did not make sense. if it were a longer lease or there were multiple months left, sure that would've been a legitimate option.
Something I didn't mention earlier, and I know it doesn't mean much because the contract says the lease went through the end of January, but we entered into the 6 month lease on July 17th. You would think that meant that the lease would roughly run through January 17th, making us leaving only a week early and not 3. It is what it is.
Also, as a tenant we were as ideal as they came. Including the year we stayed at this same community 10 years ago, we paid every month on time if not a few days early. We left zero damage (got our deposit back both times) and fully cleaned the apartment before leaving. Never a complaint from our neighbors. This is all to say we are not bad tenants, or the typical deadbeats that sbonomo has encountered.
sbonomo
Footballguy
Typically when signing a lease mid month it will either be prorated for the partial month or make the effective date, once again prorating the partial piece, the 15th. Sounds like either you, or more likely the people you were renting from, are clueless. As we digress. You still have not answered my basic questions. At this point i am really happy to let you be completely defensive about the entire situation and let it die. I am very curious to hear how everything ends up. Are able to walk away without paying rent, do they sue you and you pay, whatever. You are obviously very frustrated by the entire ordeal so i am happy to let it go.
doowain
Footballguy
You are a weird dude.
Anyway, what were your "basic questions"? Happy to answer them even though I'm sure I already have.
sbonomo
Footballguy
I'm a weird dude? That's fine but i pay my bills. Reach out to others on the board that i know IRL (pm if you are interested) and i am sure they will vouch for me. Few questions and i am sure there will be follow up: where is the smoke coming from...if you were hit with a "wall of smoke" you must be able to see it somewhere? What in the world are the maintenance guys using foam on? I have owned nice homes and shi tholes and have never heard of smoke going between the walls (it is ohio so i could definitely be wrong here). Are there gaping holes in the kitchen and laundry room? Do you have a new person next door or did this just start happening?doowain said:
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Not a lawyer and so I don't know the legalities but it seems to me that if you or your stuff are there January 1st then you should pay the full month.
