I would take Peyton Manning and an elite defense and sleep like a baby.
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The best QB in NFL history (1 Viewer)
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Larry FitzgeraldAndre JohnsonRandy MossBrandon MarshallReggie Wayne
what if you have just an average defense and average running game? Peyton still your choice?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Okay, dogging Manning because he only beat Rex Grossman in his only SB win to date is rather silly. He doesn't get to pick who he plays. Plus, he did beat Tom Brady in the AFC title game, but oh wait, that wasn't the SB, so that isn't relevant, right? 
And no way would I put Wayne in the top 5 right now, especially after yesterday. I would put the following in the top 5:
Fitz
A. Johnson
Moss
Steve Smith (Carolina)
Calvin Johnson
And no way would I put Wayne in the top 5 right now, especially after yesterday. I would put the following in the top 5:
Fitz
A. Johnson
Moss
Steve Smith (Carolina)
Calvin Johnson
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DoubleG
Footballguy
Most of the thoughts in the article are statistical analysis based on facts. So if you mean "echoing what someone else thinks" to be "using stats to defend your point of view" then yes - which most people generally prefer to just spouting opinion based in nothing.The two articles he sighted are actually two different people - both of whom, if I am not mistaken, are on staff here on FBG.Steeler said:
Sadly then, you missed an opportunity to learn something.The first link DID include post season performances - the second portion combines post season and regular season stats. In that case Manning was 2nd all time (not first - which he using the regular season numbers).
The second article is not making excuses at all. It uses a simple and very common metric to measure QB W-L when adjusted for "difficulty" of win. The "value vs. average replacement" is hardly making excuses - it is simply a statistical tool to try to account for situations like the absurdity in stating that QB ABC, whose defense allows 4.7 points per game is as good a QB as QB XYZ, whose defense allows 32 points per game, becuase their career winning % are the same.
Perhaps you should re-read the articles posted and all the stats in them instead of dismissing them out of hand, simply because they don't support you opinion...of course, you could also continue in your bliss.
culdeus
Footballguy
which steve smith?Okay, dogging Manning because he only beat Rex Grossman in his only SB win to date is rather silly. He doesn't get to pick who he plays. Plus, he did beat Tom Brady in the AFC title game, but oh wait, that wasn't the SB, so that isn't relevant, right?
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Outside of Clark, I'd say any of those guys are replaceable. It's the system and the play calling...KingEl said:
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
And does no one realize that without MANNING none of those guys you mentioned are top 5 wr or te. Did you not watch the games??? Manning pretty much tells them exactly where to go and puts it in such a ridiculously small window that you would have to be one of the worst wrs in the league to not look good. There are so many times his wrs didnt get seperation that Manning forced in a completion. And when the wrs are open its most likey from a pre-snap read that manning makes from the defense and audibles their route to make them open. And when Brady can barely put up 14 pts in the superbowl on a team they put up I think 35 in the regular season, where is every one saying that he's not clutch because of one game? Is the elite allowed to not have a bad game?? Cause if thats the case Brady is out too. You put Manning on those Patriot teams with a master mind like Bellichik and you think he doesnt do the same? Get real. One loss is so over rated. New England and SF had great coaching and a great system. I love how no one mentions the fact that when Brady went down, Matt Cassel, a guy who hasnt started a game since HIGH SCHOOL, came in and led that team to a 10-6 record. The exact same record that the oh so perfect Brady did this year. And of course in a different system Cassell was a bust this year. Even with SF, Montana was great, you plug in a QB that was 3-16 as a starter. Thats right 3-16 and he gets plugged into the QB role in that west coast system and now hes a hall of fame QB? Even Garcia got into the mix with that. But you plug in another QB into the Colts system you think they are gonna have the same record like the Patriots did with Cassel?Manning does more for his football team than any other player in the history of the league. Bottom line. These other players you talk of played in great systems where they can plug in no name guys and still have success.Aaron Rudnicki said:
unlike the Steelers winning under Ben early on with their running game, I seem to recall Brady's short but accurate passing being a huge part of the Patriots early success.They were?Carolina Hustler said:2000 Record 5-11 Dead last in the AFCE2001 Record 0-2 before Brady started his first game... 11-3 including a SB ring After Brady's first start.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
LOL, bad call.. I guess I remembered it differentlyThey were?Carolina Hustler said:
you could not find another QB who could take the Broncos to the first 3 Super Bowls the way that Elway did. Montana won a Super Bowl as a very young pro with Ricky Patton, Charlie Young, Freddie Solomon, and Dwight Clark. Were these HOF type guys?
Peyton Manning has 9 postseason losses. 9! Where is this "one bad game" shtick coming from?
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
No, that was Hall of fame coaching and a west coast scheme that was a huge success in SF under multiple QBs. And I dont have much complaining about Elway. That guy was a stud. He did it a little different than Manning but none the less Id take him over Montana too while we are at it. I just hate how over rated system QBs are.
DoubleG
Footballguy
FYP. Hope that helps.
I don't think you fixed anything. My post was fine.Does Peyton not have 9 playoff losses?
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Devine Intervention
Footballguy
Joe Montana had 7 playoff losses. Here are some of his stats:3-17 L 24-47 296 1int
3-49 L 8-15 98 1int
24-26L 12-26 109 1int
13-15L 18-26 190 TD
13-30L 9-23 125 1int
Playoff games are big games, they are one and done. Even Montana has had really really off days when it counts. Manning still has more in him. Right now I think the jury is still out there with Manning because hes got a ring and lost a ring. If he lost both it'd be a different story. I even think that if he lost his first SB appearance but won his second, he'd be in different lighting. Everyone just has a short term memory and over hypes the newest info.
cr8f
Footballguy
A QB can't be responsible for players quitting on routes. He's one man. Marino is still one of the bests but can't be ruled out based on other players. There is no undisputed top player and that makes this interesting.
He plays for a TEAM that lost 9 playoff games.
if you look at his playoff record as a starting QB, it will say 9-9, will it not?Look, I'm fine with the argument that QBs get too much credit for victories and too much blame for losses. But, every single Peyton defender points out how critically important he is to this entire team. He basically calls all the plays on offense, helps create the game plans, tells his WRs where to go, etc. If any QB deserves lots of credit for wins and lots of blame for losses, it is Peyton.
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ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Frank Reich played most of one of them when Kelly was hurt.4th one didn't count for some reason?
sure, but he started the game and I'd say he played long enough and made enough errors to have the loss on his record. those early turnovers started the downward spiral that never stopped.mytagid = Math.floor( Math.random() * 100 );document.write("Frank Reich played most of one of them when Kelly was hurt.
Game summary
Things started out well in the beginning for Buffalo. On their first possession, the Cowboys were forced to a three-and-out. Bills special teams expert Steve Tasker then blocked the ensuing punt, knocking the ball out of bounds at the Cowboys 16-yard line. Four plays later, Thurman Thomas scored on a 2-yard touchdown run to give the Bills the 7-0 early lead.
Dallas then reached their own 40-yard line on their next drive, but an illegal formation penalty nullified running back Emmitt Smith's 12-yard run. Troy Aikman then threw two consecutive incompletions, and the Cowboys were forced to punt again. The Bills subsequently advanced to midfield with the aid of a 15-yard roughing the passer penalty on Cowboys defensive lineman Leon Lett and a 21-yard reception by wide receiver Andre Reed.
Then the wave of turnovers began. On the next play, Dallas safety James Washington intercepted Jim Kelly's pass and returned it 13 yards to the Bills' 47-yard line. The Cowboys then drove 47 yards in 6 plays to tie the game on Aikman's 23-yard touchdown pass to tight end Jay Novacek.
On the Bills' first play of their next drive, Dallas defensive end Charles Haley sacked Kelly and forced a fumble. Cowboys defensive tackle Jimmie Jones picked the ball out of the air at the 2-yard line and dove into the end zone for a touchdown to give his team a 14-7 lead. Dallas had scored 2 touchdowns in a span of 15 seconds, the fastest pair in Super Bowl history.
Early in the second quarter, Kelly's 40-yard completion to Reed gave the Bills a first down at the Cowboys 4-yard line. But the Bills failed to score on 3 rushing attempts. On fourth down, Kelly's pass was intercepted in the end zone by safety Thomas Everett.
On Buffalo's next drive, linebacker Ken Norton, Jr. hit Kelly, re-injuring the quarterback's knee that he sprained earlier in the season, and playoff hero Frank Reich took Kelly's place. Reich started out well, completing his first 2 passes, including a 38-yard completion to Reed to advance the ball to the Dallas 22-yard line. But then Thomas was stopped for no gain on third down and 1 at the 4-yard line. Rather than attempt another fourth down play near the goal line, the Bills settled for Steve Christie's 21-yard field goal to cut their deficit to 14–10 with 3:24 left in the half.*** SPOILER ALERT! Click this link to display the potential spoiler text in this box. ***");document.close();
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXVII
Godsbrother
Footballguy
If you are referring to the pick-6 yesterday and are trying to pin it on Wayne please stop. That was a stupid throw by Mannng and a great play by Porter.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
This is not an all or nothing situation where all of the blame goes on one person; both Manning and Wayne were at fault, Manning for the throw, Wayne for quitting on the route.
Steeler
Footballguy
I don't have my own list of the greatest QBs or whatever... but for me "clutchness" and how well a QB performs under pressure would trump stats
Steeler
Footballguy
I didn't want to read the whole thing so thanks for you summary.
Can you define clutchness and measure performance under pressure?I don't have my own list of the greatest QBs or whatever... but for me "clutchness" and how well a QB performs under pressure would trump stats
ICON211
Footballguy
Get back to us when this actually happens. What did happen was that Manning felt pressure that was not really there and threw the ball early and inside.
Steeler
Footballguy
I don't think it can easily be measured... like someone else mentioned you can't really quantify it on a spreadsheet.However, throwing a pick 6 with 5 minutes left in the SB is an example of not being clutch and not handling the pressure well. If that one play wasn't enough evidence of "non-clutchness", consider the 2 other near-picks as well.Manning is a great padder of stats when things are going well... but when his team needed him yesterday, he did not demonstrate "clutchness". Further, he has a history of "non-clutchness" where someome like Brady has a history of being clutch most of the time.Can you define clutchness and measure performance under pressure?I don't have my own list of the greatest QBs or whatever... but for me "clutchness" and how well a QB performs under pressure would trump stats
IF you think Montana was an overrated system QB- you really don't know football or know Montana's history. The guy was winning Championships in High School and College- and had some of the greatest comebacks in Notre Dame's storied history. They even made a film about one of his comebacks before he even graduated that they still use to inspire N.D. players.. Sure the West Coast fit his talents perfectly, but every single great QB that shines- shines in part because of the system and talent surrounding him. Put a great QB in the wrong system and they might get by on talent, but they won't truly be elite. You either have to discount all great QB's becasue they were all in systems that worked, or you have to use your judgement on their individual talents. Anyone who knows football knows Montana had an incredible ability to read and disect and make the right decision and deliver the ball in the exact right spot. He raised the level of those around him, and he was a huge reason for his teams success.
Todem
Footballguy
All day in order I takeMarinoManningElwayBradyMontana All day. On pure talent and field general skills those 5 are the supreme examples of how the QB position should be played. And I would also throw in Warner and Brees. It is perosnal preference because their have been many great QB's. Staubach was amazing in the 4th quarter....Dan Fouts was a tremendous pure passer. Warren Moon...we can list a bunch. How about Jim Kelly? He led his team to 4 straight Super Bowls....yeah they did not win any...but 4 straight appearances will be something that will probably never be duplicated again.It is so hard to debate this becuase Football is the ultimate team sport. As far as last night....I was shocked the Colts did not keep running the ball all night. They were shredding the Saints with Addai who I thought after the first quarter was going to run away with the MVP if they kept that up.But hand it to the Saints...they played aggresive all night and it paid off.Peyton didn't miss the FG, peyton didn't not recover the onside kick attempt, peyton didn't allow 24 of the 31 points.there is no argument that Bradshaw is a better QB than even Marino and the SB count there is 4-0.Montana and Brady get more credit than they deserve also.Still for my money i'll take Peyton, Marino or Elway and their combined 3 superbowl titles over Bradshaw, Montana, Brady and their 12 (err.. 11 because a miracle helmet catch ruined one of them)really.... W/L are result of a TEAM, not a QB.... Peyton is clearly one of the best ever, better than MOST multiple SB winning QBs.
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Carver
Footballguy
Manning should never have thrown that ball. Great play by Porter reading and jumping it... But that was a horrible decision by Manning. Just awful. Look at how open Collie was. the heat was coming and Manning let it fly.
Steeler
Footballguy
I don't know if that's an accurate measure though. What if team A's philosophy is different than team B? What if the QB who's team is giving up 32ppg is designed to be an offensive juggernaut with many high first round picks on offense, and doesn't pay that much attention to the D? While another team might pay more attention to the D at the expense of the weapons for the QB... that can't be measured by the article.
Todem
Footballguy
It just shows.....Peyton is human. The way every single media oulet was talking about how they can't pick against Manning made me feel all he can do is fail this week. If anyone actually watched the Colts all year you knew they squeaked out so many games this season while the Saints pretty much killed everyone in their wake. The Saints were the better team top to bottom and proved it last night. If they played again next week....the Colts would probably win with a healthy (if he can get healthy) Freeny to disrupt Brees and maybe change the outcome.
The 2 best teams played last night.....and it was a great game. Clean, hard football. One bad mistake was the difference. And against a team like the Saints you can't make those mistakes. Against the Jets or Ravens...you can get by with a turnover or even 2 because they have a hard time scoring.
Manning makes the right decision 9/10 times.....he just picked a pretty bad time to make that one mistake. It happens to the best. I remember seeing Montana having awful games in the post season...just awful. Elway too. They had more opportunites to make up for them because their teams were so good. Manning carries this team on his back all year and into the post season. He was bound to make a mistake....and it finally happened to the best team in the NFL.
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I agree that the INT was a bad throw that should not have been made. Also Wayne ran a poor route and Porter made a terrific play. However,I don't think it can easily be measured... like someone else mentioned you can't really quantify it on a spreadsheet.However, throwing a pick 6 with 5 minutes left in the SB is an example of not being clutch and not handling the pressure well. If that one play wasn't enough evidence of "non-clutchness", consider the 2 other near-picks as well.Can you define clutchness and measure performance under pressure?I don't have my own list of the greatest QBs or whatever... but for me "clutchness" and how well a QB performs under pressure would trump stats
Manning is a great padder of stats when things are going well... but when his team needed him yesterday, he did not demonstrate "clutchness". Further, he has a history of "non-clutchness" where someome like Brady has a history of being clutch most of the time.
Colts 4th Quarter Comebacks
not exactly. Jim didn't help much in the comeback game against the Oilers for example. That was all Frank Reich.
Todem
Footballguy
Boy let's nit pick. He was hurt...so we do not know if he could have turned that game around as well. But he did lead this team to many AFC titles....and kept Dan Marino out of at least 2 Super Bowls. I blame the Bills for Marino not getting to more Super Bowls despite having no defense or running game all those years.....it was those damm Bills I tell you!!!
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Carver
Footballguy
Hey now... im not saying he should be perfect. Nobody is... Im just saying that the pick was on him. In all the spots to have a brain fart... that was the worst. It essentially ended the game.
gonzobill5
Footballguy
He can and he is. If you want to let the determination of the best QB ever come down to a single play in a single drive in a single game, that's your problem. Have fun flip-flopping in a few years when Peyton comes through again.
just saying. doesn't seem fair to give credit to the guy for "leading his team" to all 4 Super Bowls when he was injured for their first two playoff wins in 1992.Defense owned Miami in the AFCGG that year. 5 takeaways and held them to 33 rushing yards.
E-A-G-L-E-S
Footballguy
He didn't take it over and win it, either. 
You aren't necessarily to blame for a loss if you don't rise up and take the Super Bowl over on the strength of your own talent and leadership. But you aren't the GOAT, either. Montana comes through there. Brady comes through there. Warner comes through there. Manning didn't. Again.
You had me until you got to Warner...
Had me until Brady. Colts needed more than a FG.
Super Bowl 42 - Brady has an 80 yard drive resulting in a TD to put the Pats up by 4 with 2:42 left. Too bad their D crumbled.
Too bad the Giants kicker did not kick the ball out of bounds to give Mr. Wonderful a short field in the last minute like the Panthers did, would have made it easier for him to get his patented late FG drive
Mr. Wonderful also threw 3 INTs in the AFC championship game the week before at home, too bad the hobbled Chargers (Rivers on a torn ACL, Gates bad toe sprain, LT knee injury out) could not capitalize
Or 2006 Chargers fumble the game sealing Mr. Wonderful INT back to the pats
Or the Pick 6 thrown by Mr. Wonderful against Denver in the playoffs
Or the tuck rule
He is not as clutch as everyone makes him out to be, lot of luck if u ask me
Manning>>>>>>Brady
You aren't necessarily to blame for a loss if you don't rise up and take the Super Bowl over on the strength of your own talent and leadership. But you aren't the GOAT, either. Montana comes through there. Brady comes through there. Warner comes through there. Manning didn't. Again.
You had me until you got to Warner...
Had me until Brady. Colts needed more than a FG.
Super Bowl 42 - Brady has an 80 yard drive resulting in a TD to put the Pats up by 4 with 2:42 left. Too bad their D crumbled.
Too bad the Giants kicker did not kick the ball out of bounds to give Mr. Wonderful a short field in the last minute like the Panthers did, would have made it easier for him to get his patented late FG drive
Mr. Wonderful also threw 3 INTs in the AFC championship game the week before at home, too bad the hobbled Chargers (Rivers on a torn ACL, Gates bad toe sprain, LT knee injury out) could not capitalize
Or 2006 Chargers fumble the game sealing Mr. Wonderful INT back to the pats
Or the Pick 6 thrown by Mr. Wonderful against Denver in the playoffs
Or the tuck rule
He is not as clutch as everyone makes him out to be, lot of luck if u ask me
Manning>>>>>>Brady
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So for Buffalo, it's a team sport. But Manning plays by himself?
One thing that I thought was noteworthy last night and that relates to Peyton Manning’s legacy. Peyton isn't super tough and, at times, lets his emotions get the best of him. I’ll support that assertion with two pieces of evidence:
1) Manning isn't the best at standing in the pocket, feeling the heat and hanging in there long enough to pull the trigger accurately before getting destroyed. He receives praise for avoiding sacks by just falling down and, to an extent, that is a wise move for a quarterback who wants a long career. The problem is that sometimes Manning won’t be able to just “take the sack” sometimes you only have one shot and you have to make something happen. I saw a couple bad throws last night that Manning tried to make under pressure that someone like Favre or Brady would have made because they have that “true grit” mentality and are able to focus on the task at hand all the while knowing they are about to be anhilated. I think it may be something that you get better at with practice and Manning doesn’t practice it. His philosophy may prove the wisest but I want a quarterback that doesn’t always drop to the ground or throw the ball away when the heat is coming. That really counts in playoff games where the pressure is generally more intense and the stakes higher. I think this might be why Manning’s QB rating goes down in the playoffs while others, like the aforementioned, go up.
2) Manning pouts. We know about the incident a couple of years ago when he threw his lineman under the bus. Last night the camera showed manning after Stover’s miss and he looked like a spoiled little baby. I think he may be too much of a perfectionist. All that should matter to a quarterback is what they need to do nesxt, not what they or others HAVE done. I don’t think Manning is mentally as tough as a guy like Montana, Starr or Brady.
My belief is that there are two different styles of football. Regular season and Post season. Manning’s play is most suited to the regular season and even if he retired right now I think he is the greatest regular season quarterback ever. He is the definition of a franchise quarterback. He'll get you to the playoffs every year. He isn’t, however, the greatest post season quarterback. Greatest of all time is in the eye of the beholder. I personally put more weight on the postseason and that is why Peyton Manning lags behind other QBs with more impressive post season resumes.
1) Manning isn't the best at standing in the pocket, feeling the heat and hanging in there long enough to pull the trigger accurately before getting destroyed. He receives praise for avoiding sacks by just falling down and, to an extent, that is a wise move for a quarterback who wants a long career. The problem is that sometimes Manning won’t be able to just “take the sack” sometimes you only have one shot and you have to make something happen. I saw a couple bad throws last night that Manning tried to make under pressure that someone like Favre or Brady would have made because they have that “true grit” mentality and are able to focus on the task at hand all the while knowing they are about to be anhilated. I think it may be something that you get better at with practice and Manning doesn’t practice it. His philosophy may prove the wisest but I want a quarterback that doesn’t always drop to the ground or throw the ball away when the heat is coming. That really counts in playoff games where the pressure is generally more intense and the stakes higher. I think this might be why Manning’s QB rating goes down in the playoffs while others, like the aforementioned, go up.
2) Manning pouts. We know about the incident a couple of years ago when he threw his lineman under the bus. Last night the camera showed manning after Stover’s miss and he looked like a spoiled little baby. I think he may be too much of a perfectionist. All that should matter to a quarterback is what they need to do nesxt, not what they or others HAVE done. I don’t think Manning is mentally as tough as a guy like Montana, Starr or Brady.
My belief is that there are two different styles of football. Regular season and Post season. Manning’s play is most suited to the regular season and even if he retired right now I think he is the greatest regular season quarterback ever. He is the definition of a franchise quarterback. He'll get you to the playoffs every year. He isn’t, however, the greatest post season quarterback. Greatest of all time is in the eye of the beholder. I personally put more weight on the postseason and that is why Peyton Manning lags behind other QBs with more impressive post season resumes.
How does this follow from my comment that Kelly shouldn't get credit for winning a game he didn't even play in?Was I blaming Peyton for losing a game he sat out while recovering from an injury? Considering he's never missed a start, I'm pretty sure he played just about every snap in his 9 postseason losses.
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ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Don't disagree, just thinking that's what it was because he specified Primary QB instead of Starting QBsure, but he started the game and I'd say he played long enough and made enough errors to have the loss on his record. those early turnovers started the downward spiral that never stopped.mytagid = Math.floor( Math.random() * 100 );document.write("Frank Reich played most of one of them when Kelly was hurt.
Game summary
Things started out well in the beginning for Buffalo. On their first possession, the Cowboys were forced to a three-and-out. Bills special teams expert Steve Tasker then blocked the ensuing punt, knocking the ball out of bounds at the Cowboys 16-yard line. Four plays later, Thurman Thomas scored on a 2-yard touchdown run to give the Bills the 7-0 early lead.
Dallas then reached their own 40-yard line on their next drive, but an illegal formation penalty nullified running back Emmitt Smith's 12-yard run. Troy Aikman then threw two consecutive incompletions, and the Cowboys were forced to punt again. The Bills subsequently advanced to midfield with the aid of a 15-yard roughing the passer penalty on Cowboys defensive lineman Leon Lett and a 21-yard reception by wide receiver Andre Reed.
Then the wave of turnovers began. On the next play, Dallas safety James Washington intercepted Jim Kelly's pass and returned it 13 yards to the Bills' 47-yard line. The Cowboys then drove 47 yards in 6 plays to tie the game on Aikman's 23-yard touchdown pass to tight end Jay Novacek.
On the Bills' first play of their next drive, Dallas defensive end Charles Haley sacked Kelly and forced a fumble. Cowboys defensive tackle Jimmie Jones picked the ball out of the air at the 2-yard line and dove into the end zone for a touchdown to give his team a 14-7 lead. Dallas had scored 2 touchdowns in a span of 15 seconds, the fastest pair in Super Bowl history.
Early in the second quarter, Kelly's 40-yard completion to Reed gave the Bills a first down at the Cowboys 4-yard line. But the Bills failed to score on 3 rushing attempts. On fourth down, Kelly's pass was intercepted in the end zone by safety Thomas Everett.
On Buffalo's next drive, linebacker Ken Norton, Jr. hit Kelly, re-injuring the quarterback's knee that he sprained earlier in the season, and playoff hero Frank Reich took Kelly's place. Reich started out well, completing his first 2 passes, including a 38-yard completion to Reed to advance the ball to the Dallas 22-yard line. But then Thomas was stopped for no gain on third down and 1 at the 4-yard line. Rather than attempt another fourth down play near the goal line, the Bills settled for Steve Christie's 21-yard field goal to cut their deficit to 14–10 with 3:24 left in the half.*** SPOILER ALERT! Click this link to display the potential spoiler text in this box. ***");document.close();
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXVII
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
When did Manning beat Flacco, Sanchez? When did Brees beat Warner, Farve, Manning? Was there some arm wrestling tournament recently? That's one hell of a lazy argument.
of course it is. but, it's also true.
Carver
Footballguy
Excellent points.
