The best QB in NFL history (1 Viewer)

[phthalatemagic]

That's one hell of a lazy argument.

of course it is. but, it's also true.

Ohh OK.My dog like to eat her own poop.Therefore, Manning is the greatest QB of all time.TA DA

 

[Hellfire Snail]

You can say what you'd like but Manning's legacy was punctuated last night. We all know the score here.

The excuses being spewed on behalf of Manning are becoming more than a little embarrassing. Some quarterbacks thrive under pressure, some don't. Not much more to it.

 

[IHEARTFF]

Defense owned Miami in the AFCGG that year. 5 takeaways and held them to 33 rushing yards.

I was referring to the bolded above. You give Buffalo's defense credit for a win, yet it seems to me that you argue that Manning is solely responsible for W/L for Indy. I don't think it is fair to judge a QB or any player so heavily based on winning percentage. Offense, defense, special teams, and coaching go into every game. Players should be judged on their abilities and performance which is measured thru statistics.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

That's one hell of a lazy argument.

of course it is. but, it's also true.

Ohh OK.My dog like to eat her own poop.Therefore, Manning is the greatest QB of all time.TA DA

sorry. can you provide a link to any substantive argument you've made in here or elsewhere about Peyton being the best of all time? I'd be happy to engage you in that discussion if you like.that was far from my only post on the subject so not sure why you felt the need to get hung up on it.thanks for this great contribution to the thread though.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Defense owned Miami in the AFCGG that year. 5 takeaways and held them to 33 rushing yards.

I was referring to the bolded above. You give Buffalo's defense credit for a win, yet it seems to me that you argue that Manning is solely responsible for W/L for Indy. I don't think it is fair to judge a QB or any player so heavily based on winning percentage. Offense, defense, special teams, and coaching go into every game. Players should be judged on their abilities and performance which is measured thru statistics.

the discussion started out b/c someone said "Jim Kelly led his team to 4 Super Bowls"I said that wasn't true b/c he missed 2 playoff games in 1992.

The Dolphins fan said the Bills were the reason Marino didn't win a title. I pointed out that the defense had a great game in the AFC Championship game.

It would be silly to argue that Peyton is solely responsible for a win or loss. But, he is arguably MORE important than any other single player on the Colts, and possibly more important than any other single player in the entire league if you believe his most vocal supporters. So, why is it that people who believe he's the greatest of all time want to give him all the credit for his team's successes but not any of the blame for his team's failures?

Statistics are not always as objective and flawless as you are making them out to be either, especially in a game like football.

Even so, I think you'd have a hard time arguing that Peyton's postseason stats make a compelling case for him to be considered the greatest QB of all time.

 

[boubucarow]

By most evaluations of regular season performance in a "league average plus" manner, Manning is on the short list of greatest regular season quarterbacks. When you account for the passing norms of their contemporaries, Joe Montana was basically equal to or slightly better than Manning as a passer. On Net Adjusted Yards per Attempt, Manning makes up any differences due to his always low sack numbers. As an overall QB, Montana's running ability makes the difference. The argument for Manning is his longevity as he already has 1000+ more attempts than Montana.

The only other Super Bowl era QB that belongs in this conversation right now is Steve Young. His 8 year run as the 49ers starting QB is the greatest stretch in history by the numbers.

When you try to include the playoffs, exactly how to do so is murky. Using titles in a vacuum is worthless. A dropped pick here, missed field goal there, or defensive stand in one of the playoff games in the championship run were out of the quarterback's control and could have derailed the title quest. Let's try and look at their performances.

Manning has been in the playoffs in 10 separate years for 19 total games. This current season is the only season he put together 80+ QB ratings in every game of at least a 2 playoff game run. He has lost three opening playoff games with a 90+ qb rating. He had three <40 qb rating games including one during the Super Bowl winning year. Overall, he has a 87.6 rating with a 7.04 adjusted yards per attempt.

Montana was in the playoffs in 11 separate years for 23 total games. Four times he put together 80+ ratings in every game of at least a 2 playoff game run. Three times he had 100+ ratings in every game of at least a 2 playoff game run. He had two <40 rating games. His only game below an 80 rating in a Super Bowl winning run was a 60 effort against the 84 Bears. Overall, he had a 95.6 rating with a 7.80 adjusted yards per attempt.

 

[IHEARTFF]

I know you mentioned the Bills defense for a different reason, but it just related to my point about football being a team sport.

Maybe others are, but I'm not giving Manning all the credit when they win but none of the blame when they lose. He is probably the most important player on the team, but still just 1 player.

I've already admitted his INT was bad, and it was the single biggest play last night. I'm just using as many statistics as possible to make my determination that he is the best QB of all time. One costly INT does not change that.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Deleted my post.

Why? You cant blame that on anyone on the offense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_EQTMUYzdo

Porter KILLED that pass play. Not Manning or Wayne.

Manning should never have thrown that ball. Great play by Porter reading and jumping it... But that was a horrible decision by Manning. Just awful. Look at how open Collie was. the heat was coming and Manning let it fly.

Wayne had his guy 1 on 1.. That should have been Waynes ball.. But he didn't fight for it.That wasn't Manning's fault

 

[boubucarow]

If in fact I remember that the near Jenkins pick also occurred in one of the last two Colt drives, Manning then threw three passes that could have easily been picked on his last two possessions. Only the offensive pass interference that pushed Greer out of bounds saved a pick on that end zone play. On the Wayne play, Wayne did not run his route the way he should but Manning should have seen Porter jumping that route and not thrown it. Overall, he played well enough to win a game. However, he also played poorly at the end of the game and was clearly outplayed by Brees.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Defense owned Miami in the AFCGG that year. 5 takeaways and held them to 33 rushing yards.

I was referring to the bolded above. You give Buffalo's defense credit for a win, yet it seems to me that you argue that Manning is solely responsible for W/L for Indy. I don't think it is fair to judge a QB or any player so heavily based on winning percentage. Offense, defense, special teams, and coaching go into every game. Players should be judged on their abilities and performance which is measured thru statistics.

the discussion started out b/c someone said "Jim Kelly led his team to 4 Super Bowls"I said that wasn't true b/c he missed 2 playoff games in 1992.

The Dolphins fan said the Bills were the reason Marino didn't win a title. I pointed out that the defense had a great game in the AFC Championship game.

It would be silly to argue that Peyton is solely responsible for a win or loss. But, he is arguably MORE important than any other single player on the Colts, and possibly more important than any other single player in the entire league if you believe his most vocal supporters. So, why is it that people who believe he's the greatest of all time want to give him all the credit for his team's successes but not any of the blame for his team's failures?

Statistics are not always as objective and flawless as you are making them out to be either, especially in a game like football.

Even so, I think you'd have a hard time arguing that Peyton's postseason stats make a compelling case for him to be considered the greatest QB of all time.

If you need 100k in donations to met a goal, You have 6 people collecting donations, 1 guy collects 55k all by himself, the others cumulatively come up with another 40k..You're still short 5k.. How is it your biggest contributor's fault?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

If you need 100k in donations to met a goal, You have 6 people collecting donations, 1 guy collects 55k all by himself, the others cumulatively come up with another 40k..You're still short 5k.. How is it your biggest contributor's fault?

what if there was a competing team with the exact same setup, and their greatest collector collected 65k to put the team over the 100k goal? wouldn't that collector be considered "greater" than the one whose team came up short?so, are we going to blame everyone but Peyton for all 9 playoff losses? They were a favored team yesterday and got out to a 10-0 lead in the game. Peyton threw a pick-6 with the game on the line. The Colts scored just 7 points in the last 3 quarters of the biggest game of the year against a defense that ranked 20th in the league in points allowed. Don't you expect more from someone being argued as the "GREATEST QB OF ALL TIME"? Shouldn't the greatest of all time be able to win a game like that? Shouldn't he have a better record than 9-9 in the postseason when he also led the team to incredible regular season success all those years? Does the Colts surrounding talent and defense just all fall apart in the playoffs while Peyton continues to play at the same high level?Nobody is saying he's not great. Nobody is saying he's not one of the best we've ever seen. But, to be considered the best of all time, I think postseason greatness is expected and Peyton hasn't consistently shown that throughout his career thus far.

 

[Steeler]

I don't have my own list of the greatest QBs or whatever... but for me "clutchness" and how well a QB performs under pressure would trump stats

Can you define clutchness and measure performance under pressure?

I don't think it can easily be measured... like someone else mentioned you can't really quantify it on a spreadsheet.However, throwing a pick 6 with 5 minutes left in the SB is an example of not being clutch and not handling the pressure well. If that one play wasn't enough evidence of "non-clutchness", consider the 2 other near-picks as well.

Manning is a great padder of stats when things are going well... but when his team needed him yesterday, he did not demonstrate "clutchness". Further, he has a history of "non-clutchness" where someome like Brady has a history of being clutch most of the time.

I agree that the INT was a bad throw that should not have been made. Also Wayne ran a poor route and Porter made a terrific play. However,

Colts 4th Quarter Comebacks

Well, he had an opportunity to make it 8 4th quarter comebacks and add an emphatic exclamation point to a great regular season.... but he didn't. If you (and others) don't want to hold that against him I get it... but can't you (plural) at least understand why someone might want to "ding" him for it?

 

[Spartans Rule]

By most evaluations of regular season performance in a "league average plus" manner, Manning is on the short list of greatest regular season quarterbacks. When you account for the passing norms of their contemporaries, Joe Montana was basically equal to or slightly better than Manning as a passer. On Net Adjusted Yards per Attempt, Manning makes up any differences due to his always low sack numbers. As an overall QB, Montana's running ability makes the difference. The argument for Manning is his longevity as he already has 1000+ more attempts than Montana.

The only other Super Bowl era QB that belongs in this conversation right now is Steve Young. His 8 year run as the 49ers starting QB is the greatest stretch in history by the numbers.

When you try to include the playoffs, exactly how to do so is murky. Using titles in a vacuum is worthless. A dropped pick here, missed field goal there, or defensive stand in one of the playoff games in the championship run were out of the quarterback's control and could have derailed the title quest. Let's try and look at their performances.

Manning has been in the playoffs in 10 separate years for 19 total games. This current season is the only season he put together 80+ QB ratings in every game of at least a 2 playoff game run. He has lost three opening playoff games with a 90+ qb rating. He had three <40 qb rating games including one during the Super Bowl winning year. Overall, he has a 87.6 rating with a 7.04 adjusted yards per attempt.

Montana was in the playoffs in 11 separate years for 23 total games. Four times he put together 80+ ratings in every game of at least a 2 playoff game run. Three times he had 100+ ratings in every game of at least a 2 playoff game run. He had two <40 rating games. His only game below an 80 rating in a Super Bowl winning run was a 60 effort against the 84 Bears. Overall, he had a 95.6 rating with a 7.80 adjusted yards per attempt.

Especially the bolded part.There's more to Joe Montana than just championships. His statistics, in the context of the era he played in, are excellent.

 

[Canadian Content]

even Jesus was crucified by the mob ...... I for one will enjoy being able to say I watched Peyton Manning the greatest of all time......

 

[Devine Intervention]

Too bad the Giants kicker did not kick the ball out of bounds to give Mr. Wonderful a short field in the last minute like the Panthers did, would have made it easier for him to get his patented late FG driveMr. Wonderful also threw 3 INTs in the AFC championship game the week before at home, too bad the hobbled Chargers (Rivers on a torn ACL, Gates bad toe sprain, LT knee injury out) could not capitalizeOr 2006 Chargers fumble the game sealing Mr. Wonderful INT back to the patsOr the Pick 6 thrown by Mr. Wonderful against Denver in the playoffsOr the tuck ruleHe is not as clutch as everyone makes him out to be, lot of luck if u ask meManning>>>>>>Brady

if you watch over the last 10 years the amount of nonsense Brady and the Patriots have gotten just to be where they are in history its ridiculous. You cant take away all of his success but this small list is not all of it. Oh and he failed to mention a little thing called SPY-GATE.Manning- Great QB in an average systemMontana- Very Good QB in a Great systemBrady- Good QB in a Great system that cheated and caught alot of breaks

 

[teamroc]

even Jesus was crucified by the mob ...... I for one will enjoy being able to say I watched Peyton Manning the greatest of all time......

But then your kid will call you a liar and never respect you again. Enjoy that.

 

[Workhorse]

Breaking down Peyton's playoff stats to the 5 conference championship and Super Bowl games he's played in, and you get the following line:

132 completions

216 attempts

61.1% completion percentage

7.14 y/a

7 TDs

7 INTs

 

[boubucarow]

Too bad the Giants kicker did not kick the ball out of bounds to give Mr. Wonderful a short field in the last minute like the Panthers did, would have made it easier for him to get his patented late FG driveMr. Wonderful also threw 3 INTs in the AFC championship game the week before at home, too bad the hobbled Chargers (Rivers on a torn ACL, Gates bad toe sprain, LT knee injury out) could not capitalizeOr 2006 Chargers fumble the game sealing Mr. Wonderful INT back to the patsOr the Pick 6 thrown by Mr. Wonderful against Denver in the playoffsOr the tuck ruleHe is not as clutch as everyone makes him out to be, lot of luck if u ask meManning>>>>>>Brady

if you watch over the last 10 years the amount of nonsense Brady and the Patriots have gotten just to be where they are in history its ridiculous. You cant take away all of his success but this small list is not all of it. Oh and he failed to mention a little thing called SPY-GATE.Manning- Great QB in an average systemMontana- Very Good QB in a Great systemBrady- Good QB in a Great system that cheated and caught alot of breaks

By any measure, Manning is the better regular season QB than Brady. As for the playoffs, Manning actually has better numbers overall as Brady numbers drop during the playoffs similar to Manning. Brady's edge is his elite performance in the 2004 playoffs (90+ qb rating each game) and his lack of a bad performance in the other two Super Bowl winning years. He wasn't great in either runs, but he wasn't terrible either (70+ rating each game). Overall in the playoffs, Brady hovers around slightly below average to slightly above average in performance while Manning is more often great or terrible.Neither compares to Montana by the numbers when you include the playoffs. I can see the argument either way for Brady and Manning.

 

[CanadianNFLJunkie]

A big problem that I have when people state their case about greatness in football players, this isn't a sport like basketball or hockey or other sports where these athletes play offense and defense. I've seen a lot of HOF QB's play and I have to put Manning ahead of Montana, Favre, Marino, Young, Elway, Unitas, etc....etc. Sure Manning threw a pick yesterday that resulted in a TD that led to New Orleans winning the Super Bowl, but how can we put all the blame on Manning on that? How do we know that the receiver didn't curl properly on the route? Manning is #1 for sure in my book.

 

[David Yudkin]

Breaking down Peyton's playoff stats to the 5 conference championship and Super Bowl games he's played in, and you get the following line:132 completions216 attempts61.1% completion percentage7.14 y/a7 TDs7 INTs

In 9 championship games or SBs, Tom Brady's numbers were:191 completions299 attempts63.9% completion percentage6.69 y/a13 TDs6 INTs

 

[boubucarow]

A big problem that I have when people state their case about greatness in football players, this isn't a sport like basketball or hockey or other sports where these athletes play offense and defense. I've seen a lot of HOF QB's play and I have to put Manning ahead of Montana, Favre, Marino, Young, Elway, Unitas, etc....etc. Sure Manning threw a pick yesterday that resulted in a TD that led to New Orleans winning the Super Bowl, but how can we put all the blame on Manning on that? How do we know that the receiver didn't curl properly on the route? Manning is #1 for sure in my book.

Have you watched Manning in all his playoff games? I can't call him the greatest ever because I have seen him make far to many mistakes in crucial games and crucial moments in the most important games. This year was the first year he has played like he could be the greatest QB of all time in multiple playoff games and then he throws multiple balls into defenders hands on his last two drives while losing. There is no doubt that other QB's get lucky on their way to a Championship Ring but I have watched players like Troy Aikman and Joe Montana play at the top of their games for more than one playoff run. Manning has had plenty of chances to do so and this year is the first year he came close to doing it.

 

[boubucarow]

Breaking down Peyton's playoff stats to the 5 conference championship and Super Bowl games he's played in, and you get the following line:132 completions216 attempts61.1% completion percentage7.14 y/a7 TDs7 INTs

In 9 championship games or SBs, Tom Brady's numbers were:191 completions299 attempts63.9% completion percentage6.69 y/a13 TDs6 INTs

Slight edge to Brady but not enough to account for 3 rings to 1 ring.

 

[David Yudkin]

In 6 games for Warner . . .

152 completions

236 attempts

64.4% completion percentage

8.07 y/a

12 TDs

6 INTs

 

[JJP]

This isn't basketball, where there's only 5 guys on the floor and the team with the really, really, really good guy wins. Football is still a team game, and a QB has no control over how good or bad his defense is. The Colts defense played poorly yesterday. Yes, Manning made a very ill advised throw. Did he do anything wrong before that?

BTW, if Joe Montana was the best ever, how come the team didn't miss a beat when he was replaced?

 

[ALF!]

That's one hell of a lazy argument.

of course it is. but, it's also true.

Ohh OK.My dog like to eat her own poop.Therefore, Manning is the greatest QB of all time.TA DA

QED

 

[boubucarow]

This isn't basketball, where there's only 5 guys on the floor and the team with the really, really, really good guy wins. Football is still a team game, and a QB has no control over how good or bad his defense is. The Colts defense played poorly yesterday. Yes, Manning made a very ill advised throw. Did he do anything wrong before that?BTW, if Joe Montana was the best ever, how come the team didn't miss a beat when he was replaced?

Replaced by whom?I don't know the stats of the non-Young backups, so if that is what you are referring to I am ready to learn. However, if you are referring to Steve Young, he was off the charts good and could be argued to be the greatest regular season QB of the Super Bowl era pretty easily if you accept the short duration of his career. Having a Hall of Fame backup does not diminish Montana.By the way, Manning made at least three ill advised throws in the last two drives.

 

[IHEARTFF]

This isn't basketball, where there's only 5 guys on the floor and the team with the really, really, really good guy wins. Football is still a team game, and a QB has no control over how good or bad his defense is. The Colts defense played poorly yesterday. Yes, Manning made a very ill advised throw. Did he do anything wrong before that?

BTW, if Joe Montana was the best ever, how come the team didn't miss a beat when he was replaced?

He didn't recover that onside kick.

 

[JJP]

This isn't basketball, where there's only 5 guys on the floor and the team with the really, really, really good guy wins. Football is still a team game, and a QB has no control over how good or bad his defense is. The Colts defense played poorly yesterday. Yes, Manning made a very ill advised throw. Did he do anything wrong before that?BTW, if Joe Montana was the best ever, how come the team didn't miss a beat when he was replaced?

Replaced by whom?I don't know the stats of the non-Young backups, so if that is what you are referring to I am ready to learn. However, if you are referring to Steve Young, he was off the charts good and could be argued to be the greatest regular season QB of the Super Bowl era pretty easily if you accept the short duration of his career. Having a Hall of Fame backup does not diminish Montana.By the way, Manning made at least three ill advised throws in the last two drives.

The fact of the matter is they both had a great supporting cast. Jerry Rice isn't only the best receiver ever, but certainly one of the top 5 players for any position in the history of the league. I'm no Broncos fan, but John Elway accomplished quite a bit with MUCH, MUCH less supporting talent than either Montana or Young.BTW, as a Bear fan, what do you know about good quarterbacking?

 

[David Yudkin]

In 11 championship and SB games for Montana (includes one with KC):

220 completions

345 attempts

63.8% completion percentage

8.33 y/a

24 TDs

7 INTs

 

[JJP]

In 11 championship and SB games for Montana (includes one with KC):220 completions345 attempts63.8% completion percentage8.33 y/a24 TDs7 INTs

So what does this have to do with disproving he had a strong supporting cast? I wonder how many Super Bowls they would've won with Elway QBing.

 

[boubucarow]

This isn't basketball, where there's only 5 guys on the floor and the team with the really, really, really good guy wins. Football is still a team game, and a QB has no control over how good or bad his defense is. The Colts defense played poorly yesterday. Yes, Manning made a very ill advised throw. Did he do anything wrong before that?

BTW, if Joe Montana was the best ever, how come the team didn't miss a beat when he was replaced?

Replaced by whom?I don't know the stats of the non-Young backups, so if that is what you are referring to I am ready to learn. However, if you are referring to Steve Young, he was off the charts good and could be argued to be the greatest regular season QB of the Super Bowl era pretty easily if you accept the short duration of his career. Having a Hall of Fame backup does not diminish Montana.

By the way, Manning made at least three ill advised throws in the last two drives.

The fact of the matter is they both had a great supporting cast. Jerry Rice isn't only the best receiver ever, but certainly one of the top 5 players for any position in the history of the league. I'm no Broncos fan, but John Elway accomplished quite a bit with MUCH, MUCH less supporting talent than either Montana or Young.BTW, as a Bear fan, what do you know about good quarterbacking?

True, but I know bad quarterbacking and see enough of it from Manning in the playoffs to think he may be a Bear.Yes they had Jerry Rice and then Taylor or Owens along with Craig/Watters. Harrison, Wayne, Clark, and Edge don't exactly live in the poor house though. In the end though, the difference is that Montana consistently played better in the playoffs than he did in the regular season where he also excelled. Manning has been as good as any QB in the regular season ever but he has underperformed in the playoffs and has been unable to capture his regular season greatness for a full playoff run until this year. He played two tough pass defenses and played about as well as he could play. He played well enough to win the Super Bowl as well. But he reverted back to the mental mistakes that plagued him in past playoff runs on those last two drives.

 

[David Yudkin]

I'm not arguing anything . . . just throwing out a basis for player comparison in big games.

Elway in 11 CC and SB games:

174 completions

338 attempts

51.5% completion rate

7.52 y/a

13 TDs

12 INTs

 

[Devine Intervention]

This isn't basketball, where there's only 5 guys on the floor and the team with the really, really, really good guy wins. Football is still a team game, and a QB has no control over how good or bad his defense is. The Colts defense played poorly yesterday. Yes, Manning made a very ill advised throw. Did he do anything wrong before that?BTW, if Joe Montana was the best ever, how come the team didn't miss a beat when he was replaced?

Replaced by whom?I don't know the stats of the non-Young backups, so if that is what you are referring to I am ready to learn. However, if you are referring to Steve Young, he was off the charts good and could be argued to be the greatest regular season QB of the Super Bowl era pretty easily if you accept the short duration of his career. Having a Hall of Fame backup does not diminish Montana.By the way, Manning made at least three ill advised throws in the last two drives.

3-16 in Tampa. If Young was such a great player why was he a bust in a different system?? The system that SF had bread good QBs. Same in NE now. If a guy with a 3-16 record who was considered a bust can step right in and do the same thing then how good was the guy ahead of him? If a guy who hasnt started since highschool can step in and do the same thing as the previous guy, then how good was the guy before him? Why is it that NE is ok with having a late round rookie QB as their only backup to a QB that is just coming off a major injury?? Cause even Bellichik knows that in his system he can plug in any QB and get good production out of them. As arogant as he is he is right. And same thing with his clone mcdaniels. He thought he could run a similar system with Orton and make it work and he almost got away with it.

 

[David Yudkin]

In 7 games for Favre:

142 completions

245 attempts

58% completion percentage

7.63 y/a

14 TDs

8 INTs

 

[David Yudkin]

In 7 games for Steve Young (4 starts and 3 where he hardly played at all):

91 completions

153 attempts

59.5% completion percentage

6.98 y/a

9 TDs

2 INTs

 

[Spartans Rule]

The fact of the matter is they both had a great supporting cast. Jerry Rice isn't only the best receiver ever, but certainly one of the top 5 players for any position in the history of the league. I'm no Broncos fan, but John Elway accomplished quite a bit with MUCH, MUCH less supporting talent than either Montana or Young.

Joe Montana had four excellent seasons and two Super Bowl victories before Jerry Rice ever showed up.In 1981, Montana led the NFL in completion percentage and was 4th in passer rating while throwing to Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon. He also had an awful committee of RBs led by Ricky Patton, and the 49ers averaged 3.5 yards per carry as a team.In 1984, Montana led the 49ers to a 15-1 record. He had an excellent 102.9 QB rating, still throwing to Clark and Solomon. Wendell Tyler and Roger Craig in the backfield were certainly a large part of that success but neither is a Hall of Famer and there was still no Rice.

 

[boubucarow]

This isn't basketball, where there's only 5 guys on the floor and the team with the really, really, really good guy wins. Football is still a team game, and a QB has no control over how good or bad his defense is. The Colts defense played poorly yesterday. Yes, Manning made a very ill advised throw. Did he do anything wrong before that?BTW, if Joe Montana was the best ever, how come the team didn't miss a beat when he was replaced?

Replaced by whom?I don't know the stats of the non-Young backups, so if that is what you are referring to I am ready to learn. However, if you are referring to Steve Young, he was off the charts good and could be argued to be the greatest regular season QB of the Super Bowl era pretty easily if you accept the short duration of his career. Having a Hall of Fame backup does not diminish Montana.By the way, Manning made at least three ill advised throws in the last two drives.

3-16 in Tampa. If Young was such a great player why was he a bust in a different system?? The system that SF had bread good QBs. Same in NE now. If a guy with a 3-16 record who was considered a bust can step right in and do the same thing then how good was the guy ahead of him? If a guy who hasnt started since highschool can step in and do the same thing as the previous guy, then how good was the guy before him? Why is it that NE is ok with having a late round rookie QB as their only backup to a QB that is just coming off a major injury?? Cause even Bellichik knows that in his system he can plug in any QB and get good production out of them. As arogant as he is he is right. And same thing with his clone mcdaniels. He thought he could run a similar system with Orton and make it work and he almost got away with it.

Did you watch Steve Young play in the early 90's? I am not old enough to remember his days as a Buccaneer and he didn't do so well. But as a 49er in the 90's he was deadly accurate and able to run as well as some running backs. Yes, situation can determine a lot. But Young was a Hall of Fame talent that landed in the right situation. Manning is also a Hall of Fame talent and he landed on a team that repeatedly spent 1st round picks on offensive talent and saw offensive pro bowlers I believe basically every year of Manning's career. IMO, what drags him down is his lack of performance in the playoffs when his team was built for him to succeed.

 

[Spartans Rule]

3-16 in Tampa. If Young was such a great player why was he a bust in a different system??

First off, he was young. He only had one full season as a starter in Tampa. Many quarterbacks struggle mightily early in their career. In fact, Peyton Manning threw 28 interceptions as a rookie and the Colts went 3-13. Not at all unusual for a guy to be awful early and great later.Second, Tampa Bay was flat-out awful during the creamsicle era. Vinny Testaverde was terrible there too before having a late-career revival with the Ravens and Jets.

 

[David Yudkin]

Terry Bradshaw in 10 games:

120 completions

220 attempts

54.5% completion percentage

8.7 y/a

16 TDs

14 INTs

To show you how much the game has changed, in Bradshaw's first three games in this sample he had under 100 passing yards.

 

[ICON211]

This isn't basketball, where there's only 5 guys on the floor and the team with the really, really, really good guy wins. Football is still a team game, and a QB has no control over how good or bad his defense is. The Colts defense played poorly yesterday. Yes, Manning made a very ill advised throw. Did he do anything wrong before that?

BTW, if Joe Montana was the best ever, how come the team didn't miss a beat when he was replaced?

This post is great. He was replaced with another hall of fame QB. Do you think the Colts would just fall apart and go 4-12 or 5-11 if Manning was replaced by another hall of fame QB in their prime?

 

[boubucarow]

The fact of the matter is they both had a great supporting cast. Jerry Rice isn't only the best receiver ever, but certainly one of the top 5 players for any position in the history of the league. I'm no Broncos fan, but John Elway accomplished quite a bit with MUCH, MUCH less supporting talent than either Montana or Young.

Joe Montana had four excellent seasons and two Super Bowl victories before Jerry Rice ever showed up.In 1981, Montana led the NFL in completion percentage and was 4th in passer rating while throwing to Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon. He also had an awful committee of RBs led by Ricky Patton, and the 49ers averaged 3.5 yards per carry as a team.In 1984, Montana led the 49ers to a 15-1 record. He had an excellent 102.9 QB rating, still throwing to Clark and Solomon. Wendell Tyler and Roger Craig in the backfield were certainly a large part of that success but neither is a Hall of Famer and there was still no Rice.

And Steve Young put up a 104.7 rating and led the league in yards per attempt in 1997 when Rice played in 2 games. Rice also played extremely well without Young or Montana. This is simply a case of three tremendous players playing for the same team around the same time.

 

[boubucarow]

Terry Bradshaw in 10 games:

120 completions

220 attempts

54.5% completion percentage

8.7 y/a

16 TDs

14 INTs

To show you how much the game has changed, in Bradshaw's first three games in this sample he had under 100 passing yards.

Pretty impressive thanks to Swann and Stallworth.

 

[David Yudkin]

Fouts in 2 games:

37 completions

73 attempts

50.7% completion percentage

7.1 y/a

3 TDs

4 INTs

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

The fact of the matter is they both had a great supporting cast. Jerry Rice isn't only the best receiver ever, but certainly one of the top 5 players for any position in the history of the league. I'm no Broncos fan, but John Elway accomplished quite a bit with MUCH, MUCH less supporting talent than either Montana or Young.

Joe Montana had four excellent seasons and two Super Bowl victories before Jerry Rice ever showed up.In 1981, Montana led the NFL in completion percentage and was 4th in passer rating while throwing to Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon. He also had an awful committee of RBs led by Ricky Patton, and the 49ers averaged 3.5 yards per carry as a team.In 1984, Montana led the 49ers to a 15-1 record. He had an excellent 102.9 QB rating, still throwing to Clark and Solomon. Wendell Tyler and Roger Craig in the backfield were certainly a large part of that success but neither is a Hall of Famer and there was still no Rice.

:( Thank you. When can we finally put to rest the nonsense view that Montana was only good because of the talent surrounding him? Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon were solid, but they paled in comparison to Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne.

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

The fact of the matter is they both had a great supporting cast. Jerry Rice isn't only the best receiver ever, but certainly one of the top 5 players for any position in the history of the league. I'm no Broncos fan, but John Elway accomplished quite a bit with MUCH, MUCH less supporting talent than either Montana or Young.

Joe Montana had four excellent seasons and two Super Bowl victories before Jerry Rice ever showed up.In 1981, Montana led the NFL in completion percentage and was 4th in passer rating while throwing to Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon. He also had an awful committee of RBs led by Ricky Patton, and the 49ers averaged 3.5 yards per carry as a team.In 1984, Montana led the 49ers to a 15-1 record. He had an excellent 102.9 QB rating, still throwing to Clark and Solomon. Wendell Tyler and Roger Craig in the backfield were certainly a large part of that success but neither is a Hall of Famer and there was still no Rice.

And Steve Young put up a 104.7 rating and led the league in yards per attempt in 1997 when Rice played in 2 games. Rice also played extremely well without Young or Montana. This is simply a case of three tremendous players playing for the same team around the same time.

Did you even read the post you quoted? Think carefully before answering.

 

[ICON211]

Lots of people in here that either never saw Joe Montana play or were not paying attention when they did.

 

[boubucarow]

The fact of the matter is they both had a great supporting cast. Jerry Rice isn't only the best receiver ever, but certainly one of the top 5 players for any position in the history of the league. I'm no Broncos fan, but John Elway accomplished quite a bit with MUCH, MUCH less supporting talent than either Montana or Young.

Joe Montana had four excellent seasons and two Super Bowl victories before Jerry Rice ever showed up.In 1981, Montana led the NFL in completion percentage and was 4th in passer rating while throwing to Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon. He also had an awful committee of RBs led by Ricky Patton, and the 49ers averaged 3.5 yards per carry as a team.In 1984, Montana led the 49ers to a 15-1 record. He had an excellent 102.9 QB rating, still throwing to Clark and Solomon. Wendell Tyler and Roger Craig in the backfield were certainly a large part of that success but neither is a Hall of Famer and there was still no Rice.

And Steve Young put up a 104.7 rating and led the league in yards per attempt in 1997 when Rice played in 2 games. Rice also played extremely well without Young or Montana. This is simply a case of three tremendous players playing for the same team around the same time.

Did you even read the post you quoted? Think carefully before answering.

Gotta say I am

 

[David Yudkin]

Staubach in 10 games . . .

130 completions

231 attempts

56.3% completion percentage

6.6 y/a

15 TDs

12 INTs

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

The fact of the matter is they both had a great supporting cast. Jerry Rice isn't only the best receiver ever, but certainly one of the top 5 players for any position in the history of the league. I'm no Broncos fan, but John Elway accomplished quite a bit with MUCH, MUCH less supporting talent than either Montana or Young.

Joe Montana had four excellent seasons and two Super Bowl victories before Jerry Rice ever showed up.In 1981, Montana led the NFL in completion percentage and was 4th in passer rating while throwing to Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon. He also had an awful committee of RBs led by Ricky Patton, and the 49ers averaged 3.5 yards per carry as a team.In 1984, Montana led the 49ers to a 15-1 record. He had an excellent 102.9 QB rating, still throwing to Clark and Solomon. Wendell Tyler and Roger Craig in the backfield were certainly a large part of that success but neither is a Hall of Famer and there was still no Rice.

And Steve Young put up a 104.7 rating and led the league in yards per attempt in 1997 when Rice played in 2 games. Rice also played extremely well without Young or Montana. This is simply a case of three tremendous players playing for the same team around the same time.

Did you even read the post you quoted? Think carefully before answering.

Gotta say I am

:bagoverhead: I am dumb. Hit "reply" on the wrong post and didn't go back to read it. :bagoverhead:

 

[Carver]

Lots of people in here that either never saw Joe Montana play or were not paying attention when they did.

GREAT posting.I just cant imagine how anyone who watched Montana play (and was old enough to understand the game) can even MENTION Peyton in the same breath. It's asinine. Not only does Manning throw-up on his shoes when the lights are shining brightest, he has played MORE THAN HALF of his career games IN A DOME.