The best QB in NFL history (1 Viewer)

[Carolina Hustler]

It wasn't Wayne's fault. It was a hot-read. The Colts run this play all the time. Porter gambled and jumped the route.Manning is at fault, but primarily it was just a great play. There is no way Wayne could have got to the ball. Porter was a good 2 yards in front of him when he caught it.

I've watched the play about 50 times.. you're wrong.. Go watch it again

 

[KingEl]

San Fran's team defensive ranks during Montana SB winning yearsYr Yards Points81 - 2 284 - 10 188 - 3 8 89 - 4 3 I wonder if that helps a QB to know he has an elite defense to help him out.

I wonder if having one of the most efficent, deadly QB's ever putting tremondous pressure on the opposing teams offense to try and keep up helps make his defense elite.,, two sides to everything and neither takes away from the other.

LOL, no... You guys are to much..Typically When you have 1 team scoring a lot of points, the other team is doing as much as possible to keep up.. Low scoring, clock killing games help defenses. Not High scoring offenses. There were actually stats to prove this somewhere, I'll look for them...

While your at it, check the stats for the patriots def a few year ago when Brady and the offense was dominating. The other team trying to catch up leads to one dimensional play, sacks, and turnovers.. I had the Patriots def that year.. they weren't a dominant quality def- but they feasted on those opposing offenses trying to catch up. Benefited the Saints this year too.

That is only 1 dimension of defensive play. That doesn't tell defensive rank, or describe the final score... But for FF purposes.. lol.. I'm sure it helped you.. now go back and remember that your FF score and real NFL are 2 different things all together..And if you want something looked up, do the work yourself... don't make a baseless claim unless you're willing to back it up. You speculate that teams that get scored against have bad offenses.... or do poorly against the other teams def. Thats just patently untrue...

I never made that speculation at all.. I don't even understand what your saying.. "teams that get scored against have bad offenses" bad offense? huh? What I said was a teams offensive cabability puts pressure on the other teams offense which helps the defense. You actually disagree with that? And you were the one that made a counter arguement and said you were looking up the stats to prove it.. I actually agree with you that low scoring, clock killing teams can lead to dominant defenses- that's obvious- but for you to say that the other extreme of a dominant offense putting pressure on the other teams offense is baseless and patently untrue- is well...just as baseless and patently untrue... Knowing your going up against a Montana, a Marino, or Elway or whoever in a big game, is a big pychological hurdle to start with. You have extra pressure to perform at a higher level. Most let that pressure alter their play. That is a small but very real factor in sports..

 

[shader]

It wasn't Wayne's fault. It was a hot-read. The Colts run this play all the time. Porter gambled and jumped the route.Manning is at fault, but primarily it was just a great play. There is no way Wayne could have got to the ball. Porter was a good 2 yards in front of him when he caught it.

I've watched the play about 50 times.. you're wrong.. Go watch it again

I'm not going to argue with you. It was a hot read that Porter jumped. Wayne had no chance to get back to the ball. If you even listen to interviews with Porter, he'll tell you what happened. They gambled. Porter gambled as to what was coming, jumped the route, and it was game over.When a DB makes a gamble like that there is nothing the WR can do. It's a jumped route. Happens all the time.Trying to pin the blame on Wayne is absurd.

 

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

I wouldn't provide one, because I don't believe it. I didn't see any posts of yours that had any sort of meaning either. I didn't realize staffers were the only people that had license to not contribute to threads, I guess.

thanks for your insightful commentary, as always.

And thank you for your contributions. I'm sure you are considered a big reason FBGs was the #11 FF site in 2009.

Link?

No link eh? Pretty much par for the course with this guy. Poor form as usual.

 

[Happy Ragnarok]

You're right. It's Manning's fault that his WR couldn't catch perfectly thrown footballs on Sunday. It's Manning's fault that the Indianapolis special teams stunk to high heaven. It's Manning's fault that the Colts defense played like a sieve. In short, Peyton Manning sucks!

Nobody's saying Manning sucks. (Nobody with his head outside his own ###, anyway.)But he did throw a pick six at a crucial time. He did throw two other balls that were so ill-delivered that they ought to have been picked. And most importantly for the point of the OP, he sure as hell didn't put the team on his back and deliver them to the promised land.Peyton's not a bad QB. In fact he's a very good QB. Hell, no two ways about it...he's a GREAT QB. But he didn't elevate his game in a legendary way with the season and a shot at the title on the line. That's not a fair criticism to level at a guy when you're trying to determine whether a guy's a good QB or not. But it's more than fair when you're trying to determine whether he's the best of all time.He's a great QB who has shown time and again that he won't elevate his play or his team on football's biggest stages. HOF? Sure, first ballot. But decidedly second-tier right now.

 

[Steeler]

You're right. It's Manning's fault that his WR couldn't catch perfectly thrown footballs on Sunday. It's Manning's fault that the Indianapolis special teams stunk to high heaven. It's Manning's fault that the Colts defense played like a sieve. In short, Peyton Manning sucks!

A) Before the game did you expect the Colts to score more than 17 points? Surely Manning as the unofficial head coach / field general / coach on the field / master of his domain (until the 4th quarter) bears most of the blame for that... no?2) With 5 minutes left in the game all the stuff you listed did not matter at all! At that moment Manning had an opportunity to put the Colts on his back and take his team down the field to tie the score.... instead his team went down by 14 points.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

[quote name='Carolina Hustler' post='11478162' date='Feb 9 2010, 1I never made that speculation at all.. I don't even understand what your saying.. "teams that get scored against have bad offenses" huh? What I said was a teams offensive cabability puts pressure on the other teams offense which helps the defense. You actually disagree with that?

And you were the one that made a counter arguement and said you were looking up the stats to prove it.. I actually agree with you that low scoring, clock killing teams can lead to dominant defenses- that's obvious- but for you to say that the other extreme of a dominant offense putting pressure on the other teams offense is baseless and patently untrue- is well...just as baseless and patently untrue...

Knowing your going up a Montana, a Marino, or Elway or whoever in a big game, is a big pychilogical hurdle to start with. You have extra pressure to perform at a higher level. Most let that pressure alter their play. That is a small but very real factor in sports..

I've read back over and I can't help but come to the same conclusion.

You're saying:

SF's def #'s were so good during the Montana era as a product of Montana rather than Montana's #'s and SB wins actually being partially responsible to the Def.

SF having a "efficient deadly" QB, speaking of Montana, and specifically of his passing ability, since that's the basis for the thread...... SF's QB was so good, that he causes

#1) The other teams offense to be nervous ("philological hurdle").. I don't know how you could consider that to be since we're talking about SB teams here.., Typically 2 teams going into the SB both figure they are the best and fear doesn't play a part so much.. I think it's a pretty ridiculous statement.. but whatever..

#2) Keeps the other team from scoring because... um.. hmm.. What are you saying here? Because they try to score harder and make more mistakes? Ultimately causing some traceable pattern of teams that go up against high scoring QB's to actually score lower because of opposing QB play.. Yet another ridiculous attempt.. I'd agree that more mistakes and/or turnovers may occur, but to say they'll actually score less as a result would be pretty silly..

It's a pretty silly argument. SF had a great DEF and the DEF was in a large part responsible to the SF SB wins along with Montana, the offensive scheme, the coaching staff (ONE OF IF NOT THE BEST EVER), and the rest of the team... Including JERRY RICE!

 

[Carolina Hustler]

You're right. It's Manning's fault that his WR couldn't catch perfectly thrown footballs on Sunday. It's Manning's fault that the Indianapolis special teams stunk to high heaven. It's Manning's fault that the Colts defense played like a sieve. In short, Peyton Manning sucks!

A) Before the game did you expect the Colts to score more than 17 points? Surely Manning as the unofficial head coach / field general / coach on the field / master of his domain (until the 4th quarter) bears most of the blame for that... no?2) With 5 minutes left in the game all the stuff you listed did not matter at all! At that moment Manning had an opportunity to put the Colts on his back and take his team down the field to tie the score.... instead his team went down by 14 points.

You don't fault the strongest link for weakness' in the other links of the chain... figure it out....

 

[Carolina Hustler]

You're right. It's Manning's fault that his WR couldn't catch perfectly thrown footballs on Sunday. It's Manning's fault that the Indianapolis special teams stunk to high heaven. It's Manning's fault that the Colts defense played like a sieve. In short, Peyton Manning sucks!

Nobody's saying Manning sucks. (Nobody with his head outside his own ###, anyway.)But he did throw a pick six at a crucial time. He did throw two other balls that were so ill-delivered that they ought to have been picked. And most importantly for the point of the OP, he sure as hell didn't put the team on his back and deliver them to the promised land.Peyton's not a bad QB. In fact he's a very good QB. Hell, no two ways about it...he's a GREAT QB. But he didn't elevate his game in a legendary way with the season and a shot at the title on the line. That's not a fair criticism to level at a guy when you're trying to determine whether a guy's a good QB or not. But it's more than fair when you're trying to determine whether he's the best of all time.He's a great QB who has shown time and again that he won't elevate his play or his team on football's biggest stages. HOF? Sure, first ballot. But decidedly second-tier right now.

Lets stop talking about balls thrown that COULD have been picked off but weren't that's a ridiculous argument.. they weren't picked. We could all go back and find a million almost picked off passes by any QB you want to name. But you won't see them in the stats or in the record books. You know why? BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T PICKED OFF! We aren't playing horse shoes here.

 

[boubucarow]

[quote name='Carolina Hustler' post='11478162' date='Feb 9 2010, 1I never made that speculation at all.. I don't even understand what your saying.. "teams that get scored against have bad offenses" huh? What I said was a teams offensive cabability puts pressure on the other teams offense which helps the defense. You actually disagree with that?

And you were the one that made a counter arguement and said you were looking up the stats to prove it.. I actually agree with you that low scoring, clock killing teams can lead to dominant defenses- that's obvious- but for you to say that the other extreme of a dominant offense putting pressure on the other teams offense is baseless and patently untrue- is well...just as baseless and patently untrue...

Knowing your going up a Montana, a Marino, or Elway or whoever in a big game, is a big pychilogical hurdle to start with. You have extra pressure to perform at a higher level. Most let that pressure alter their play. That is a small but very real factor in sports..

I've read back over and I can't help but come to the same conclusion.

You're saying:

SF's def #'s were so good during the Montana era as a product of Montana rather than Montana's #'s and SB wins actually being partially responsible to the Def.

SF having a "efficient deadly" QB, speaking of Montana, and specifically of his passing ability, since that's the basis for the thread...... SF's QB was so good, that he causes

#1) The other teams offense to be nervous ("philological hurdle").. I don't know how you could consider that to be since we're talking about SB teams here.., Typically 2 teams going into the SB both figure they are the best and fear doesn't play a part so much.. I think it's a pretty ridiculous statement.. but whatever..

#2) Keeps the other team from scoring because... um.. hmm.. What are you saying here? Because they try to score harder and make more mistakes? Ultimately causing some traceable pattern of teams that go up against high scoring QB's to actually score lower because of opposing QB play.. Yet another ridiculous attempt.. I'd agree that more mistakes and/or turnovers may occur, but to say they'll actually score less as a result would be pretty silly..

It's a pretty silly argument. SF had a great DEF and the DEF was in a large part responsible to the SF SB wins along with Montana, the offensive scheme, the coaching staff (ONE OF IF NOT THE BEST EVER), and the rest of the team... Including JERRY RICE!

You are right. The 49ers won Super Bowls when their defense was very good and the defense deserves a lot of the credit for those titles.

As for Jerry Rice, look here.

Quite simply, Peyton Manning has almost always been a lesser QB in the playoffs. Joe Montana was often a better QB in the playoffs. When you take into account that they were essentially near equal regular season QB's when taken in the context of their time period, it is pretty clear cut that Montana deserves to be remembered as the better quarterback at this point in time.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I'm not going to argue with you. It was a hot read that Porter jumped. Wayne had no chance to get back to the ball. If you even listen to interviews with Porter, he'll tell you what happened. They gambled. Porter gambled as to what was coming, jumped the route, and it was game over.When a DB makes a gamble like that there is nothing the WR can do. It's a jumped route. Happens all the time.Trying to pin the blame on Wayne is absurd.

Porter made a tremendous play, no doubt, and Manning shouldn't have thrown the ball, as Porter was already sitting on the route, but Wayne did nothing to stop it. Even though Porter may have jumped the route, Wayne simply stopped and made zero attempt to break up the ball from being picked off. It is almost like Wayne conceded the spot to Porter, once he jumped the route, instead of fighting for it. The INT was a combination of a terrific play by Porter, a bad decision by Manning to throw to that spot, and a terrible job by Wayne of improvising once Porter jumped his route.

 

[Steeler]

You're right. It's Manning's fault that his WR couldn't catch perfectly thrown footballs on Sunday. It's Manning's fault that the Indianapolis special teams stunk to high heaven. It's Manning's fault that the Colts defense played like a sieve. In short, Peyton Manning sucks!

A) Before the game did you expect the Colts to score more than 17 points? Surely Manning as the unofficial head coach / field general / coach on the field / master of his domain (until the 4th quarter) bears most of the blame for that... no?2) With 5 minutes left in the game all the stuff you listed did not matter at all! At that moment Manning had an opportunity to put the Colts on his back and take his team down the field to tie the score.... instead his team went down by 14 points.

Yeah, Reggie Wayne ran the wrong route but Manning gets the blame.

You answered question #2... how about number A?

You don't fault the strongest link for weakness' in the other links of the chain... figure it out....

Actually, I do in a conversation of the GOAT. He had an opportunity to carry the "weaker links" to a championship... that's what the GOAT type players do... Manning did not.

 

[maxwelledison]

You're right. It's Manning's fault that his WR couldn't catch perfectly thrown footballs on Sunday. It's Manning's fault that the Indianapolis special teams stunk to high heaven. It's Manning's fault that the Colts defense played like a sieve. In short, Peyton Manning sucks!

Nobody's saying Manning sucks. (Nobody with his head outside his own ###, anyway.)But he did throw a pick six at a crucial time. He did throw two other balls that were so ill-delivered that they ought to have been picked. And most importantly for the point of the OP, he sure as hell didn't put the team on his back and deliver them to the promised land.Peyton's not a bad QB. In fact he's a very good QB. Hell, no two ways about it...he's a GREAT QB. But he didn't elevate his game in a legendary way with the season and a shot at the title on the line. That's not a fair criticism to level at a guy when you're trying to determine whether a guy's a good QB or not. But it's more than fair when you're trying to determine whether he's the best of all time.He's a great QB who has shown time and again that he won't elevate his play or his team on football's biggest stages. HOF? Sure, first ballot. But decidedly second-tier right now.

Lets stop talking about balls thrown that COULD have been picked off but weren't that's a ridiculous argument.. they weren't picked. We could all go back and find a million almost picked off passes by any QB you want to name. But you won't see them in the stats or in the record books. You know why? BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T PICKED OFF! We aren't playing horse shoes here.

The guy takes the time to make a balanced and reasoned point and this is your response? Apologists unite.

 

[Godsbrother]

Yeah, Reggie Wayne ran the wrong route but Manning gets the blame.

Can you pleae provide a link from anyone that played or coached the game that says Wayne ran the wrong route? Here are some comments from the players that I have read:

The Colts often run a slant on third-and-short. The Saints call it a stick route. Once receiver Austin Collie began to motion down, Porter knew the play was designed for receiver Reggie Wayne to go wide and run to the first-down marker. "We ran it earlier, and Peyton went backdoor with the pass," Wayne said. "This time it came my way. They squatted on it a little bit and made a great play." Porter jumped the route, followed the ball into his hands and was off.

And so it was fascinating to watch Sunday night’s game turn when a 23-year-old Saints cornerback outsmarted Manning late in the fourth quarter. Tracy Porter said he knew “immediately” that the Colts were running one of their “bread and butter” 3rd-down plays with 3 minutes, 24 seconds left in the game. Porter stepped in front of receiver Reggie Wayne, intercepted Manning’s pass and returned it 74 yards for a touchdown. “I saw it over and over on film the past two weeks,” Porter said. “On third down, the route they ran there was always big for them to convert third downs on. Through numerous amounts of film study we’ve done all week, when the route came, it felt like I was watching it on film. When I saw the ball coming, I knew I was going to be in the end zone.”

If anything, Saints players and coaches seemed surprised at how predictable the Colts were on the crucial play. Manning and offensive coordinator Tom Moore are known for prescient late-game play calling, but multiple Saints defenders identified the route tree before the snap. “I can tell now that Tracy pays attention in the film room,” safety Darren Sharper said. “Because he read that play well and trusted his instincts.” Before the snap, Porter noticed receiver Austin Collie as the outside receiver and Wayne in the slot position. “We knew Collie wasn’t normally a guy they liked in that spot,” Porter said. In previous instances of that formation, Porter said, Collie had gone into late motion and run the slot position’s route. The slot man, in turn, ran what’s known as a “stick route” -- essentially a 6-yard pattern designed to reach the yardage “stick” and convert a first down. On cue, Wayne ran that route. He had no chance to make the catch. “It was just a great play by Porter,” Manning said. “That’s all I can really say about it.”

 

[KingEl]

[quote name='Carolina Hustler' post='11478162' date='Feb 9 2010, 1I never made that speculation at all.. I don't even understand what your saying.. "teams that get scored against have bad offenses" huh? What I said was a teams offensive cabability puts pressure on the other teams offense which helps the defense. You actually disagree with that?

And you were the one that made a counter arguement and said you were looking up the stats to prove it.. I actually agree with you that low scoring, clock killing teams can lead to dominant defenses- that's obvious- but for you to say that the other extreme of a dominant offense putting pressure on the other teams offense is baseless and patently untrue- is well...just as baseless and patently untrue...

Knowing your going up a Montana, a Marino, or Elway or whoever in a big game, is a big pychilogical hurdle to start with. You have extra pressure to perform at a higher level. Most let that pressure alter their play. That is a small but very real factor in sports..

I've read back over and I can't help but come to the same conclusion.

You're saying:

SF's def #'s were so good during the Montana era as a product of Montana rather than Montana's #'s and SB wins actually being partially responsible to the Def.

SF having a "efficient deadly" QB, speaking of Montana, and specifically of his passing ability, since that's the basis for the thread...... SF's QB was so good, that he causes

#1) The other teams offense to be nervous ("philological hurdle").. I don't know how you could consider that to be since we're talking about SB teams here.., Typically 2 teams going into the SB both figure they are the best and fear doesn't play a part so much.. I think it's a pretty ridiculous statement.. but whatever..

#2) Keeps the other team from scoring because... um.. hmm.. What are you saying here? Because they try to score harder and make more mistakes? Ultimately causing some traceable pattern of teams that go up against high scoring QB's to actually score lower because of opposing QB play.. Yet another ridiculous attempt.. I'd agree that more mistakes and/or turnovers may occur, but to say they'll actually score less as a result would be pretty silly..

It's a pretty silly argument. SF had a great DEF and the DEF was in a large part responsible to the SF SB wins along with Montana, the offensive scheme, the coaching staff (ONE OF IF NOT THE BEST EVER), and the rest of the team... Including JERRY RICE!

I'm sorry if I wasn't clearer in my statement. You are reading alot of claims that I don't say or meant into a throwaway statement that I posted in response to someone who was clearly infering that Montana's success was due to the defense of the 49ers. Of course it all worked together.. I also didn't claim it makes another team "low scoring." Where did I say that? I say it helps the defense which you say you agree that it causes mistakes and turnovers-- That's not "helping" the defense?! You are agreeing... Again, its not a big arguement I'm trying to argue. You are reaching too far into my statement. I could easily infer from your statement since you make a point of bolding it that all the SF SB wins are in part due to Jerry Rice, but I know you know that only 2 of them with Montana included him. or the Bolded part about best coaching staff ever, I would argue the Seifert staffs were not one of the best ever, but merely caretakers of Walsh teachings.

As far as the other team nervous thing you say and that another SuperBowl team would be impervious to that. Have you ever watched the NFL Films isolation footage of Wyche and Boomer at the end of the SuperBowl as Montana drove the 49ers down. It's almost comical as Wyche babbles into his headset about "we gave Montana too much time" "stop him, do something" "fing Montana" Other coaches and players were certainly aware of what it meant to face Montana AND the 49ers, and what his abilities were in a situation. If you really don't think that affect them somehow, we'll just disagree.

 

[SuperJohn96]

And when Brady can barely put up 14 pts in the superbowl on a team they put up I think 35 in the regular season, where is every one saying that he's not clutch because of one game? Is the elite allowed to not have a bad game?? Cause if thats the case Brady is out too. You put Manning on those Patriot teams with a master mind like Bellichik and you think he doesnt do the same? Get real. One loss is so over rated.

Peyton Manning The Indianapolis Colts has have 9 postseason losses. 9! Where is this "one bad game" shtick coming from?

FYP. Hope that helps.

Joe Montana had 7 playoff losses. Here are some of his stats:3-17 L 24-47 296 1int

3-49 L 8-15 98 1int

24-26L 12-26 109 1int

13-15L 18-26 190 TD

13-30L 9-23 125 1int

Playoff games are big games, they are one and done. Even Montana has had really really off days when it counts. Manning still has more in him. Right now I think the jury is still out there with Manning because hes got a ring and lost a ring. If he lost both it'd be a different story. I even think that if he lost his first SB appearance but won his second, he'd be in different lighting. Everyone just has a short term memory and over hypes the newest info.

True, Montana only had 2 fewer playoff losses.But he also had 16 wins compared to Peyton's 9.

Put another way....Joe Montana has a .695 Win% in the playoffs.

For Peyton to better that number, he'd have to win his next TWELVE playoff games in a row (he'd be at 21-9 with a .700 Win%)

That means if the Colts continued to win the division and earn a first round playoff BYE in each of the next four years, they'd have to win the Super Bowl each year...

2011: 3-0; Super Bowl Win

2012: 3-0; Super Bowl Win

2013: 3-0; Super Bowl Win

2014: 3-0; Super Bowl Win

Sure, I guess then he'd be the best QB of all-time.

 

[Steeler]

Blah, blah, blah, blah

Come on bro... you need a more convincing argument than that

 

[boubucarow]

You're right. It's Manning's fault that his WR couldn't catch perfectly thrown footballs on Sunday. It's Manning's fault that the Indianapolis special teams stunk to high heaven. It's Manning's fault that the Colts defense played like a sieve. In short, Peyton Manning sucks!

Nobody's saying Manning sucks. (Nobody with his head outside his own ###, anyway.)But he did throw a pick six at a crucial time. He did throw two other balls that were so ill-delivered that they ought to have been picked. And most importantly for the point of the OP, he sure as hell didn't put the team on his back and deliver them to the promised land.Peyton's not a bad QB. In fact he's a very good QB. Hell, no two ways about it...he's a GREAT QB. But he didn't elevate his game in a legendary way with the season and a shot at the title on the line. That's not a fair criticism to level at a guy when you're trying to determine whether a guy's a good QB or not. But it's more than fair when you're trying to determine whether he's the best of all time.He's a great QB who has shown time and again that he won't elevate his play or his team on football's biggest stages. HOF? Sure, first ballot. But decidedly second-tier right now.

Lets stop talking about balls thrown that COULD have been picked off but weren't that's a ridiculous argument.. they weren't picked. We could all go back and find a million almost picked off passes by any QB you want to name. But you won't see them in the stats or in the record books. You know why? BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T PICKED OFF! We aren't playing horse shoes here.

So by your account, passes that could have caught by Wayne or Garcon are also ridiculous points in an argument.Why is it so hard for many to actually watch a QB and determine if they played well or not? Any pass into a defender's hand is a bad pass and should reflect badly on a QB. Manning moved the ball pretty easily on those last two drives but he did throw three balls that could have easily been picked. That reflects poorly on him in any argument that he is the greatest QB of all time. I am sure Montana was lucky in his Super Bowl runs with a dropped pick here or there. But most that watched him will say that in the playoffs, he played extremely well overall. I have watched every single game of Manning's postseason career. He often does not play at the level his regular season dominance would suggest. The last two drives are two of many examples of that.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Yeah, Reggie Wayne ran the wrong route but Manning gets the blame.

Can you pleae provide a link from anyone that played or coached the game that says Wayne ran the wrong route? Here are some comments from the players that I have read:

The Colts often run a slant on third-and-short. The Saints call it a stick route. Once receiver Austin Collie began to motion down, Porter knew the play was designed for receiver Reggie Wayne to go wide and run to the first-down marker. "We ran it earlier, and Peyton went backdoor with the pass," Wayne said. "This time it came my way. They squatted on it a little bit and made a great play." Porter jumped the route, followed the ball into his hands and was off.

And so it was fascinating to watch Sunday night’s game turn when a 23-year-old Saints cornerback outsmarted Manning late in the fourth quarter. Tracy Porter said he knew “immediately” that the Colts were running one of their “bread and butter” 3rd-down plays with 3 minutes, 24 seconds left in the game. Porter stepped in front of receiver Reggie Wayne, intercepted Manning’s pass and returned it 74 yards for a touchdown. “I saw it over and over on film the past two weeks,” Porter said. “On third down, the route they ran there was always big for them to convert third downs on. Through numerous amounts of film study we’ve done all week, when the route came, it felt like I was watching it on film. When I saw the ball coming, I knew I was going to be in the end zone.”

If anything, Saints players and coaches seemed surprised at how predictable the Colts were on the crucial play. Manning and offensive coordinator Tom Moore are known for prescient late-game play calling, but multiple Saints defenders identified the route tree before the snap. “I can tell now that Tracy pays attention in the film room,” safety Darren Sharper said. “Because he read that play well and trusted his instincts.” Before the snap, Porter noticed receiver Austin Collie as the outside receiver and Wayne in the slot position. “We knew Collie wasn’t normally a guy they liked in that spot,” Porter said. In previous instances of that formation, Porter said, Collie had gone into late motion and run the slot position’s route. The slot man, in turn, ran what’s known as a “stick route” -- essentially a 6-yard pattern designed to reach the yardage “stick” and convert a first down. On cue, Wayne ran that route. He had no chance to make the catch. “It was just a great play by Porter,” Manning said. “That’s all I can really say about it.”

Providing links for your quotes makes them more credible

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Blah, blah, blah, blah

Come on bro... you need a more convincing argument than that

I'm starting to warm up to your humor a bit.. You can be wrong and still be funny I guess

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

when i comes down to it though...did montana really ever have this much control over his teams? i understand he was clutch and great in the superbowl...but, he also had the best reciever of all-time a hall of fame rb and a great defense to go along with it. the colts d has always been a bend but dont break defense and completely relies on manning to get out to a big lead so they can use there quickness to get pressure. although will not deny that manning did choke and that if he finished off that drive it would have helped my arguement alot.

 

[KingEl]

You're right. It's Manning's fault that his WR couldn't catch perfectly thrown footballs on Sunday. It's Manning's fault that the Indianapolis special teams stunk to high heaven. It's Manning's fault that the Colts defense played like a sieve. In short, Peyton Manning sucks!

Nobody's saying Manning sucks. (Nobody with his head outside his own ###, anyway.)But he did throw a pick six at a crucial time. He did throw two other balls that were so ill-delivered that they ought to have been picked. And most importantly for the point of the OP, he sure as hell didn't put the team on his back and deliver them to the promised land.Peyton's not a bad QB. In fact he's a very good QB. Hell, no two ways about it...he's a GREAT QB. But he didn't elevate his game in a legendary way with the season and a shot at the title on the line. That's not a fair criticism to level at a guy when you're trying to determine whether a guy's a good QB or not. But it's more than fair when you're trying to determine whether he's the best of all time.He's a great QB who has shown time and again that he won't elevate his play or his team on football's biggest stages. HOF? Sure, first ballot. But decidedly second-tier right now.

Lets stop talking about balls thrown that COULD have been picked off but weren't that's a ridiculous argument.. they weren't picked. We could all go back and find a million almost picked off passes by any QB you want to name. But you won't see them in the stats or in the record books. You know why? BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T PICKED OFF! We aren't playing horse shoes here.

So by your account, passes that could have caught by Wayne or Garcon are also ridiculous points in an argument.Why is it so hard for many to actually watch a QB and determine if they played well or not? Any pass into a defender's hand is a bad pass and should reflect badly on a QB. Manning moved the ball pretty easily on those last two drives but he did throw three balls that could have easily been picked. That reflects poorly on him in any argument that he is the greatest QB of all time. I am sure Montana was lucky in his Super Bowl runs with a dropped pick here or there. But most that watched him will say that in the playoffs, he played extremely well overall. I have watched every single game of Manning's postseason career. He often does not play at the level his regular season dominance would suggest. The last two drives are two of many examples of that.

I agree. Manning is a fantastic QB. No one can dispute that. However, ever since his college days- he has had a deserved rep as falling short in pressure situations. He gets skittish, he rushes, his normal happy feet (which is usually a sign of mechanic breakdown but in Mannings case is his natural style) get more pronounced and is a breakdown in mechanics. I love the guy as a QB, am a fan of his, but those are all very true traits of Mannings game, and while he's gotten better over the years- it's still a true flaw. Now I also agree most of great QB's also have this flaw- no one is perfect and everyone fails at some point. you either take a loss or you win a super bowl. Most of the modern greats that are often mentioned in this arguement have distinct falloff's in their postseason play. The better competition, the more pressure affects them. Manning is in this category.Of those greats, Montana's #'s go up as the competition and pressure ratchets up. His already steller regular season #'s(arguably better or at least equal to the other greats) get better. Of course he had his bad games, but overall- the man plays at an extremely high level. And like Mannings rep of pressure weakness dating back throughout his carreer, Montana's ability to handle pressure situations was obvious in highschool, college and throughout the pros. His comebacks (even off the bench) are legendary at Notre Dame- Montana's ability to handle the pressure is obviously an inate part of his pyche/talents, just as Manning's drop in play due to pressure or Favre's gunslinger no matter the circumstance is part of his. Montana has a special ability to raise his play and those around him in the most intense situations. Manning's or other greats not having this same abilitiy or as good an ability to do that is not a knock on them, it's jsut what makes Montana special.The bottom line is that Montana, Manning, Marino, Young- the different greats- all get their teams to the playoffs. That's the 1st goal of every NFL team. Whatever their numbers, they AND their teams all rack up the wins.. Now that they are in the playoffs- what happens? They all have their successes and failures, but Montana had more success.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

when i comes down to it though...did montana really ever have this much control over his teams? i understand he was clutch and great in the superbowl...but, he also had the best reciever of all-time a hall of fame rb and a great defense to go along with it.

Montana won 2 Super Bowls before Jerry Rice was drafted.

 

[Devine Intervention]

11-5 record

327-516 63.4 comp %

3693 yrds

21 tds

11 ints

89.4 QB rating

10-6 record

371-565 65.7 comp %

4398 yrds

28 tds

13 ints

96.2 QB rating

Two QBs on the same team, in idealy the same offense and same system. One of the is a future HALL OF FAME QB and one of them is a kid WHO HASNT STARTED A GAME SINCE HIGH SCHOOL.

Those system QBs have a great coach to fall back on to make them look good. They have a good scheme and good play calling.

What does Manning fall back on? He is the system, he is the one who pretty much calls the plays.

And when Cassel finally got into the hang of the system he looked just as good. In his last 8 games he went 6-2 with losses coming to the super bowl winning champs, and a 3 pt loss to Brett Favre and the Jets. He had 2 games were he threw for over 400 yrds and one of 345 yrds. 5 out of the 8 he had over a 100 passer rating.

If you took his last 8 games when he got into his own and averaged them over the season hed be roughly like this:

12-4

4000 yrds

28 tds

8 ints

100 QB rating

and his 5 losses came to SD, Ind, Mia, Pitt, NYJ. 4 out of 5 were playoff teams and the one that wasnt had Favre at QB.

brady is overrated!!!!

MANNING>>>>>>>BRADY

 

[David Yudkin]

11-5 record327-516 63.4 comp %3693 yrds21 tds11 ints89.4 QB rating10-6 record371-565 65.7 comp %4398 yrds28 tds13 ints96.2 QB ratingTwo QBs on the same team, in idealy the same offense and same system. One of the is a future HALL OF FAME QB and one of them is a kid WHO HASNT STARTED A GAME SINCE HIGH SCHOOL. Those system QBs have a great coach to fall back on to make them look good. They have a good scheme and good play calling. What does Manning fall back on? He is the system, he is the one who pretty much calls the plays. And when Cassel finally got into the hang of the system he looked just as good. In his last 8 games he went 6-2 with losses coming to the super bowl winning champs, and a 3 pt loss to Brett Favre and the Jets. He had 2 games were he threw for over 400 yrds and one of 345 yrds. 5 out of the 8 he had over a 100 passer rating. If you took his last 8 games when he got into his own and averaged them over the season hed be roughly like this:12-44000 yrds28 tds8 ints100 QB ratingand his 5 losses came to SD, Ind, Mia, Pitt, NYJ. 4 out of 5 were playoff teams and the one that wasnt had Favre at QB. brady is overrated!!!! MANNING>>>>>>>BRADY

How'd Cassel do in Kansas City? The Pats played some of the WEAKEST pass defenses in the league in the games whn Cassel performed well. Against solid pass defenses? Not so much . . .Also, people like to look at the recent era Patriots with Moss and Welker. Let's see how Cassel would have fared with Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, and Troy Brown as his receivers.I still would say overall Manning is a better QB than Brady . . . but it'snot like he's 7 >s worth greater.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Has any "Great" quarterback thrown a game ending pick with a chance to win on the opponent's side of the field in a Championship game?

No. That is what players who are not "Great" do.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

when i comes down to it though...did montana really ever have this much control over his teams? i understand he was clutch and great in the superbowl...but, he also had the best reciever of all-time a hall of fame rb and a great defense to go along with it. the colts d has always been a bend but dont break defense and completely relies on manning to get out to a big lead so they can use there quickness to get pressure. although will not deny that manning did choke and that if he finished off that drive it would have helped my arguement alot.

Yes. Montana was clutch. he made incredible plays at incredible times. He was a huge part of what they did.

 

[Devine Intervention]

11-5 record327-516 63.4 comp %3693 yrds21 tds11 ints89.4 QB rating10-6 record371-565 65.7 comp %4398 yrds28 tds13 ints96.2 QB ratingTwo QBs on the same team, in idealy the same offense and same system. One of the is a future HALL OF FAME QB and one of them is a kid WHO HASNT STARTED A GAME SINCE HIGH SCHOOL. Those system QBs have a great coach to fall back on to make them look good. They have a good scheme and good play calling. What does Manning fall back on? He is the system, he is the one who pretty much calls the plays. And when Cassel finally got into the hang of the system he looked just as good. In his last 8 games he went 6-2 with losses coming to the super bowl winning champs, and a 3 pt loss to Brett Favre and the Jets. He had 2 games were he threw for over 400 yrds and one of 345 yrds. 5 out of the 8 he had over a 100 passer rating. If you took his last 8 games when he got into his own and averaged them over the season hed be roughly like this:12-44000 yrds28 tds8 ints100 QB ratingand his 5 losses came to SD, Ind, Mia, Pitt, NYJ. 4 out of 5 were playoff teams and the one that wasnt had Favre at QB. brady is overrated!!!! MANNING>>>>>>>BRADY

How'd Cassel do in Kansas City? The Pats played some of the WEAKEST pass defenses in the league in the games whn Cassel performed well. Against solid pass defenses? Not so much . . .Also, people like to look at the recent era Patriots with Moss and Welker. Let's see how Cassel would have fared with Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, and Troy Brown as his receivers.I still would say overall Manning is a better QB than Brady . . . but it'snot like he's 7 >s worth greater.

Brady has Moss and Welker too. Pretty much the exact same offense in both of these statistics. The diff is the QBs

 

[Devine Intervention]

11-5 record327-516 63.4 comp %3693 yrds21 tds11 ints89.4 QB rating10-6 record371-565 65.7 comp %4398 yrds28 tds13 ints96.2 QB ratingTwo QBs on the same team, in idealy the same offense and same system. One of the is a future HALL OF FAME QB and one of them is a kid WHO HASNT STARTED A GAME SINCE HIGH SCHOOL. Those system QBs have a great coach to fall back on to make them look good. They have a good scheme and good play calling. What does Manning fall back on? He is the system, he is the one who pretty much calls the plays. And when Cassel finally got into the hang of the system he looked just as good. In his last 8 games he went 6-2 with losses coming to the super bowl winning champs, and a 3 pt loss to Brett Favre and the Jets. He had 2 games were he threw for over 400 yrds and one of 345 yrds. 5 out of the 8 he had over a 100 passer rating. If you took his last 8 games when he got into his own and averaged them over the season hed be roughly like this:12-44000 yrds28 tds8 ints100 QB ratingand his 5 losses came to SD, Ind, Mia, Pitt, NYJ. 4 out of 5 were playoff teams and the one that wasnt had Favre at QB. brady is overrated!!!! MANNING>>>>>>>BRADY

How'd Cassel do in Kansas City? The Pats played some of the WEAKEST pass defenses in the league in the games whn Cassel performed well. Against solid pass defenses? Not so much . . .Also, people like to look at the recent era Patriots with Moss and Welker. Let's see how Cassel would have fared with Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, and Troy Brown as his receivers.I still would say overall Manning is a better QB than Brady . . . but it'snot like he's 7 >s worth greater.

oh. and how did Brady look when he had those WRs? I dont think his stats were all that pretty.

 

[Devine Intervention]

Has any "Great" quarterback thrown a game ending pick with a chance to win on the opponent's side of the field in a Championship game?No. That is what players who are not "Great" do.

So your saying Brady is not great too??? Cause twice he threw an interception on a possible game winning drive in an AFC Championship game. Once against SD where he got LUCKY and the defender fumbled the ball right back to him. And the other against the Colts where he had an 18 pt lead earlier in the game. And dont say its not the Superbowl because you have to win that game to even get in the Superbowl so its just as important.

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

when i comes down to it though...did montana really ever have this much control over his teams? i understand he was clutch and great in the superbowl...but, he also had the best reciever of all-time a hall of fame rb and a great defense to go along with it

Go check out 1981 and 1984. Montana won Super Bowls both years. Without Jerry Rice.

 

[Swampy]

LOL I never knew that Football was wrestling..in other words there are 22 players to a field, not 1

 

[Swampy]

Has any "Great" quarterback thrown a game ending pick with a chance to win on the opponent's side of the field in a Championship game?No. That is what players who are not "Great" do.

How did they get in that position? Was it Manning all by himself who allowed 24 points?

 

[Swampy]

Where was this post after the SB win? PLain and simple Manning is the greatest, and we as people need to find fault with greatness to make us feel better

 

[gonzobill5]

And when Brady can barely put up 14 pts in the superbowl on a team they put up I think 35 in the regular season, where is every one saying that he's not clutch because of one game? Is the elite allowed to not have a bad game?? Cause if thats the case Brady is out too. You put Manning on those Patriot teams with a master mind like Bellichik and you think he doesnt do the same? Get real. One loss is so over rated.

Peyton Manning The Indianapolis Colts has have 9 postseason losses. 9! Where is this "one bad game" shtick coming from?

FYP. Hope that helps.

Joe Montana had 7 playoff losses. Here are some of his stats:3-17 L 24-47 296 1int

3-49 L 8-15 98 1int

24-26L 12-26 109 1int

13-15L 18-26 190 TD

13-30L 9-23 125 1int

Playoff games are big games, they are one and done. Even Montana has had really really off days when it counts. Manning still has more in him. Right now I think the jury is still out there with Manning because hes got a ring and lost a ring. If he lost both it'd be a different story. I even think that if he lost his first SB appearance but won his second, he'd be in different lighting. Everyone just has a short term memory and over hypes the newest info.

True, Montana only had 2 fewer playoff losses.But he also had 16 wins compared to Peyton's 9.

Put another way....Joe Montana has a .695 Win% in the playoffs.

For Peyton to better that number, he'd have to win his next TWELVE playoff games in a row (he'd be at 21-9 with a .700 Win%)

That means if the Colts continued to win the division and earn a first round playoff BYE in each of the next four years, they'd have to win the Super Bowl each year...

2011: 3-0; Super Bowl Win

2012: 3-0; Super Bowl Win

2013: 3-0; Super Bowl Win

2014: 3-0; Super Bowl Win

Sure, I guess then he'd be the best QB of all-time.

Just so I get this right...you are saying Peyton would need 6 SB appearances, 5 wins, a playoff record of 21-9, and (assuming he's also accumulating regular season statistics throughout those 4 years) regular season numbers that completely blow Montana out of the water in order for him to be your #1 QB of all time?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

PLain and simple Manning is the greatest

what makes him the greatest?

 

[David Yudkin]

11-5 record327-516 63.4 comp %3693 yrds21 tds11 ints89.4 QB rating10-6 record371-565 65.7 comp %4398 yrds28 tds13 ints96.2 QB ratingTwo QBs on the same team, in idealy the same offense and same system. One of the is a future HALL OF FAME QB and one of them is a kid WHO HASNT STARTED A GAME SINCE HIGH SCHOOL. Those system QBs have a great coach to fall back on to make them look good. They have a good scheme and good play calling. What does Manning fall back on? He is the system, he is the one who pretty much calls the plays. And when Cassel finally got into the hang of the system he looked just as good. In his last 8 games he went 6-2 with losses coming to the super bowl winning champs, and a 3 pt loss to Brett Favre and the Jets. He had 2 games were he threw for over 400 yrds and one of 345 yrds. 5 out of the 8 he had over a 100 passer rating. If you took his last 8 games when he got into his own and averaged them over the season hed be roughly like this:12-44000 yrds28 tds8 ints100 QB ratingand his 5 losses came to SD, Ind, Mia, Pitt, NYJ. 4 out of 5 were playoff teams and the one that wasnt had Favre at QB. brady is overrated!!!! MANNING>>>>>>>BRADY

How'd Cassel do in Kansas City? The Pats played some of the WEAKEST pass defenses in the league in the games whn Cassel performed well. Against solid pass defenses? Not so much . . .Also, people like to look at the recent era Patriots with Moss and Welker. Let's see how Cassel would have fared with Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, and Troy Brown as his receivers.I still would say overall Manning is a better QB than Brady . . . but it's not like he's 7 >s worth greater.

oh. and how did Brady look when he had those WRs? I dont think his stats were all that pretty.

Brady put up 3529 passing yards (7th in the league), 24 TD (4th in the league), and ranked as the #7 fantasy QB. He also led the team to a 12-4 record and a first down away from going to another SB.

 

[gonzobill5]

Wanted to point out how surprised I was that there seems to be universal agreement that it's either Manning or Montana. Anyone disagree with both of these? Were any of the Brady supporters claiming he should be #1?

There aren't many positions throughout all of sports where that is the case.

 

[hostile]

IMO, overall QBs get too much credit/blame for winning or losing. It's a team game and if any number of players in any game played better the QB wouldn't be made to be the goat on a single play that ended up costing his team the game. Sure, there are games where a QB makes a boatload of mistakes, turns the ball over all game long, and generally doesn't play well (see Brady vs. BAL this post season). But if Manning didn't have pinpoint accuracy yesterday the Colts could have lost by way more than they did. And Manning wasn't the one that let Brees complete 82% of his passes.

Best post ever, regarding the discussion of history's "greatest QBs".

 

[culdeus]

Wanted to point out how surprised I was that there seems to be universal agreement that it's either Manning or Montana. Anyone disagree with both of these? Were any of the Brady supporters claiming he should be #1?

There aren't many positions throughout all of sports where that is the case.

uh, no.

 

[Steeler]

Has any "Great" quarterback thrown a game ending pick with a chance to win on the opponent's side of the field in a Championship game?No. That is what players who are not "Great" do.

How did they get in that position? Was it Manning all by himself who allowed 24 points?

This argument is really missing the point. REGARDLESS of what else happened to that point in the game, Manning had an opportunity to tie the game and failed.

 

[IHEARTFF]

PLain and simple Manning is the greatest

what makes him the greatest?

All I have done is post statistical evidence and links to more stats to back up my argument. All others have done is say omg Montana won more Super Bowls. Is Trent Dilfer a better quarterback than Dan Marino?

 

[Carver]

It wasn't Wayne's fault. It was a hot-read. The Colts run this play all the time. Porter gambled and jumped the route.Manning is at fault, but primarily it was just a great play. There is no way Wayne could have got to the ball. Porter was a good 2 yards in front of him when he caught it.

I've watched the play about 50 times.. you're wrong.. Go watch it again

So you must have seen Austin Collie running across the middle WIDE OPEN... Porter sat down on Waynes route and was waiting for the ball like Garfield waiting for a piece of lasagna to fall off the table. If Manning just waits an extra second and GLANCES to the right... it's 1st and 10. Instead... Manning got hot around the collar and threw it right at a salivating Tracy Porter. Wayne had barely turned his had and the ball was already in the air. It was physically impossible for him to have made a play on that pass. It's not as if Manning hasn't done this before. This wasn't some anomaly. He gets happy feet and is prone to rushing his throws when he feels the pressure coming. Lots of times it happens to him in big games.

 

[Godsbrother]

The Colts often run a slant on third-and-short. The Saints call it a stick route. Once receiver Austin Collie began to motion down, Porter knew the play was designed for receiver Reggie Wayne to go wide and run to the first-down marker.

"We ran it earlier, and Peyton went backdoor with the pass," Wayne said. "This time it came my way. They squatted on it a little bit and made a great play."

Porter jumped the route, followed the ball into his hands and was off.

And so it was fascinating to watch Sunday night’s game turn when a 23-year-old Saints cornerback outsmarted Manning late in the fourth quarter. Tracy Porter said he knew “immediately” that the Colts were running one of their “bread and butter” 3rd-down plays with 3 minutes, 24 seconds left in the game. Porter stepped in front of receiver Reggie Wayne, intercepted Manning’s pass and returned it 74 yards for a touchdown. “I saw it over and over on film the past two weeks,” Porter said. “On third down, the route they ran there was always big for them to convert third downs on. Through numerous amounts of film study we’ve done all week, when the route came, it felt like I was watching it on film. When I saw the ball coming, I knew I was going to be in the end zone.”

If anything, Saints players and coaches seemed surprised at how predictable the Colts were on the crucial play. Manning and offensive coordinator Tom Moore are known for prescient late-game play calling, but multiple Saints defenders identified the route tree before the snap.

“I can tell now that Tracy pays attention in the film room,” safety Darren Sharper said. “Because he read that play well and trusted his instincts.”

Before the snap, Porter noticed receiver Austin Collie as the outside receiver and Wayne in the slot position. “We knew Collie wasn’t normally a guy they liked in that spot,” Porter said.

In previous instances of that formation, Porter said, Collie had gone into late motion and run the slot position’s route. The slot man, in turn, ran what’s known as a “stick route” -- essentially a 6-yard pattern designed to reach the yardage “stick” and convert a first down.

On cue, Wayne ran that route. He had no chance to make the catch.

“It was just a great play by Porter,” Manning said. “That’s all I can really say about it.”

Providing links for your quotes makes them more credible

Link for #1Link for #2 & 3

 

[boubucarow]

PLain and simple Manning is the greatest

what makes him the greatest?

All I have done is post statistical evidence and links to more stats to back up my argument. All others have done is say omg Montana won more Super Bowls. Is Trent Dilfer a better quarterback than Dan Marino?

You clearly have skipped over a ton of Montana posts in this thread. You seem to be unwilling to have a two way conversation of merit.

 

[IHEARTFF]

PLain and simple Manning is the greatest

what makes him the greatest?

All I have done is post statistical evidence and links to more stats to back up my argument. All others have done is say omg Montana won more Super Bowls. Is Trent Dilfer a better quarterback than Dan Marino?

You clearly have skipped over a ton of Montana posts in this thread. You seem to be unwilling to have a two way conversation of merit.

I'm not trying to come off that way. Actually you just about the only person posting stats to back up Montana > Manning, which I can respect. All these other guys arguing TEAM WINS = INDIVIDUAL RANKINGS is just garbage. They're ignoring the other 10 offensive players, the 11 defenders and the special teams. It's an awful way to judge players.

 

[boubucarow]

PLain and simple Manning is the greatest

what makes him the greatest?

All I have done is post statistical evidence and links to more stats to back up my argument. All others have done is say omg Montana won more Super Bowls. Is Trent Dilfer a better quarterback than Dan Marino?

You clearly have skipped over a ton of Montana posts in this thread. You seem to be unwilling to have a two way conversation of merit.

I'm not trying to come off that way. Actually you just about the only person posting stats to back up Montana > Manning, which I can respect. All these other guys arguing TEAM WINS = INDIVIDUAL RANKINGS is just garbage. They're ignoring the other 10 offensive players, the 11 defenders and the special teams. It's an awful way to judge players.

I know a lot of posts in this thread just mention playoff records or super bowl wins. To be fair, I am not the only person using individual performance to support Montana in this thread. Spartans Rule for one has also done so. For instance, I think that Kurt Warner is the best playoff quarterback in this era. Yeah, Brady has 3 titles and Warner has 1. However, Warner has been a better performer and I know that for sure since I watched all the games they have played in the playoffs. If I could have taken a QB for my Bears for this era, I would no doubt take Warner since if the Bears would have made the playoffs he would have given them the best chance to win.For that same reason despite me not being old enough to witness all of Montana's career, the little bit I saw and the thoughts I have seen from others made me believe that Montana is better than any QB in this era when you combine the regular season and the post season individual career success.

 

[SuperJohn96]

True, Montana only had 2 fewer playoff losses.But he also had 16 wins compared to Peyton's 9.Put another way....Joe Montana has a .695 Win% in the playoffs.For Peyton to better that number, he'd have to win his next TWELVE playoff games in a row (he'd be at 21-9 with a .700 Win%)That means if the Colts continued to win the division and earn a first round playoff BYE in each of the next four years, they'd have to win the Super Bowl each year...2011: 3-0; Super Bowl Win2012: 3-0; Super Bowl Win2013: 3-0; Super Bowl Win2014: 3-0; Super Bowl WinSure, I guess then he'd be the best QB of all-time.

Just so I get this right...you are saying Peyton would need 6 SB appearances, 5 wins, a playoff record of 21-9, and (assuming he's also accumulating regular season statistics throughout those 4 years) regular season numbers that completely blow Montana out of the water in order for him to be your #1 QB of all time?

You say that like it would be hard to do or something.

 

[Tanner9919]

That's the bottom line on Peyton. He's the best regular season QB ever. But in the post-season, he's very average and usually makes big mistakes at inappropriate times.

And don't tell me the int wasn't Peyton's fault. Just don't.

if Manning is 35 yards from all the glory if he scores there, he's also 65 yards from infamy..

and even if Manning and the Colts score, there's WAY too much time left on the clock form Brees ( probably 1.25 or so)..

and who's to say whether or not Colts win the coin toss in OT, or score on first possession?

this assumption that Manning would have been immortalized with a TD there is ridiculous..it would not have given the Colts the win, they merely would have tied the game!

Big Ben is what, 8-2 lifetime postseason? 2 SB wins?

Bart Starr 9-1 lifetime postseason..

heck, Elway was something like 14-8, Brady is off-the-charts good in postseason...

not only was Manning 9-9 in postseason to date, he also left the playoffs 5 seasons in one-n-done fashion, i.e., losing in his first playoff game of the season, 5 times! many of those times the Colts had homefield advatage or at least a bye..how can that happen??

let's be fair , here.Manning, since switching to AFC South, has played against an expansion team in Houston, a lousy Jags team, and a Titans team that has just 4 winning seasons since 2002 ( above .500 that is).

his SB winning 2006 Colts team can't possibly be considered among the all-time great SB winning teams, right? I mean, do you think the '06 Colts could have beaten the '86 Giants? '85 Bears? any of the Cowboys teams from the 90's? any of the Niners SB teams? Patriots? how about the late 90s Rams?

or Favre's Packers? or Elways back-2-back SB winning Broncos? or the great Redskins teams of the 80s/90s? :(

not a chance...

 

[boubucarow]

That's the bottom line on Peyton. He's the best regular season QB ever. But in the post-season, he's very average and usually makes big mistakes at inappropriate times.

And don't tell me the int wasn't Peyton's fault. Just don't.

if Manning is 35 yards from all the glory if he scores there, he's also 65 yards from infamy..

and even if Manning and the Colts score, there's WAY too much time left on the clock form Brees ( probably 1.25 or so)..

and who's to say whether or not Colts win the coin toss in OT, or score on first possession?

this assumption that Manning would have been immortalized with a TD there is ridiculous..it would not have given the Colts the win, they merely would have tied the game!

Big Ben is what, 8-2 lifetime postseason? 2 SB wins?

Bart Starr 9-1 lifetime postseason..

heck, Elway was something like 14-8, Brady is off-the-charts good in postseason...

not only was Manning 9-9 in postseason to date, he also left the playoffs 5 seasons in one-n-done fashion, i.e., losing in his first playoff game of the season, 5 times! many of those times the Colts had homefield advatage or at least a bye..how can that happen??

let's be fair , here.Manning, since switching to AFC South, has played against an expansion team in Houston, a lousy Jags team, and a Titans team that has just 4 winning seasons since 2002 ( above .500 that is).

his SB winning 2006 Colts team can't possibly be considered among the all-time great SB winning teams, right? I mean, do you think the '06 Colts could have beaten the '86 Giants? '85 Bears? any of the Cowboys teams from the 90's? any of the Niners SB teams? Patriots? how about the late 90s Rams?

or Favre's Packers? or Elways back-2-back SB winning Broncos? or the great Redskins teams of the 80s/90s?

not a chance...

Big Ben was 9-21 for 123 yards and 2 picks in the SB against Seattle. Tom Brady was a missed 45 yard field goal in a snowstorm by Vinatieri away from not making his 1st SB and a missed 48 yard field goal away from overtime in that Super Bowl.

Elway's career stats in the 5 Super Bowls. 50% completions 3 td 8 int

Jim Kelly was a made 47 yard field goal in perfect conditions from winning a Super Bowl

Point is, looking at post season records in a vacuum tells us little. We need to look at how these players performed in those playoff games and Super Bowls. Brady was an average playoff QB helped by a great supporting cast and a amazingly clutch kicker until he exploded against Carolina, then was a great playoff QB in the next seasons title run, but has been pretty off and on every since with at least one multiple pick game in each playoff run. Big Ben did almost everything he could to cost the Steelers a title and then carried them to one (with the help of Holmes). It is not sufficient to count titles and playoff wins to evaluate these players.

Manning isn't a average playoff QB because his teams went 9-9. He is an merely an above average playoff QB because he has made far too many mistakes in every single Colt playoff run to be considered a great postseason QB.