The Birther Conspiracy Thread (2 Viewers)

[Choke]

He did. He produced what the state of Hawaii made the decision upon.

furthermore...

Asked about this, Hawaiian Department of Health spokeswoman Janice Okubo stated that Hawaii "does not have a short-form or long-form certificate".[12] Moreover, the director of her Department has confirmed that the state "has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures".[13][14]

So you are saying that Hawaii is certifying that it has a form on document that only one sentence earlier it says does not exist?Well, who could possibly argue with that?

I didnt say anything about a longform.Im saying they have a a BC. And they send out a COLB to anyone and everyone that needs varification and has a right to see it. (in this case it was Obama who reqested and forwarded it).

Even on their own state printed paper it states the COLB is good in ALL COURTS.

 

[Bronco Billy]

He's already provided the long form birth certificate to the federal government prior to his election

Can you provide documentation to support this claim?

Is this a good enough source?:

If I am required to not only show but make available for 2 weeks my long form birth certificate to the US government in order to obtain a passport, why is it that the President of the United States does not have to provide the same long form birth certificate if a group of his constituents demands to see it, especially given the Constitutional qualifications for President?

So you make the supposition that the document does in fact exist because he has a passport? Good. It should be easy enough for him to provide it for his constituents that are making a request to see it.

 

[bigbottom]

Are all members of Congress this stupid?

To be fair to Congress, this guy is not a member. He is from the Texas state House of Representatives.

Yay Texas!

 

[Choke]

He's already provided the long form birth certificate to the federal government prior to his election

Can you provide documentation to support this claim?

Is this a good enough source?:

If I am required to not only show but make available for 2 weeks my long form birth certificate to the US government in order to obtain a passport, why is it that the President of the United States does not have to provide the same long form birth certificate if a group of his constituents demands to see it, especially given the Constitutional qualifications for President?

So you make the supposition that the document does in fact exist because he has a passport? Good. It should be easy enough for him to provide it for his constituents that are making a request to see it.

Nope. Denied. You get the COLB as per the Hawaii regualtions.

 

[pantagrapher]

Always amusing the way Birthers like Bronco Billy pretend they're not really Birthers.

 

[timschochet]

major league ownage right here

people are still talking about this?

Wow. That is like talking to so many of our conservatives right here at FBGs.

Here, if you hate what the FBG conservatives have to say, spend some time with this....See those who have raised questions about the legitimacy of Obama presidency

Warning to Choke: Opposing view contained inside link.

That's a pretty sad list, Jewel. Contrary to your claim (and World Net Daily) it doesn't serve to legitimize the questions. What it does is serve to further delegitimize the people who ask them. I wasn't surprised to see Steve King, Sarah Palin, or JD Hayworth on that list; given their type of politics, this is par for the course. But Laura Ingraham and Newt Gingrich know better; they are just pandering to the crazies, and should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Choke]

major league ownage right here

people are still talking about this?

Wow. That is like talking to so many of our conservatives right here at FBGs.

Here, if you hate what the FBG conservatives have to say, spend some time with this....See those who have raised questions about the legitimacy of Obama presidency

Warning to Choke: Opposing view contained inside link.

Talking to the FBGs convervative hate bloc, is like to talking to the Texas St Rep. Simple as that. Dead center bullseye.

 

[bigbottom]

Can you provide documentation to support this claim?

Is this a good enough source?:

If I am required to not only show but make available for 2 weeks my long form birth certificate to the US government in order to obtain a passport, why is it that the President of the United States does not have to provide the same long form birth certificate if a group of his constituents demands to see it, especially given the Constitutional qualifications for President?

So you make the supposition that the document does in fact exist because he has a passport?

Of course. And that's your very logic (see quoted text above). I happen to agree with that logic.

Good. It should be easy enough for him to provide it for his constituents that are making a request to see it.

I agree that it would be easy for him to provide the document. Have I said anything to suggest otherwise?

 

[Mister Martie]

Always amusing the way Birthers like Bronco Billy pretend they're not really Birthers.

His appearance here to defend the birthers is laughably predictable.

 

[bigbottom]

major league ownage right here

people are still talking about this?

Wow. That is like talking to so many of our conservatives right here at FBGs.

Here, if you hate what the FBG conservatives have to say, spend some time with this....See those who have raised questions about the legitimacy of Obama presidency

Warning to Choke: Opposing view contained inside link.

That's a pretty sad list, Jewel. Contrary to your claim (and World Net Daily) it doesn't serve to legitimize the questions. What it does is serve to further delegitimize the people who ask them. I wasn't surprised to see Steve King, Sarah Palin, or JD Hayworth on that list; given their type of politics, this is par for the course. But Laura Ingraham and Newt Gingrich know better; they are just pandering to the crazies, and should be ashamed of themselves.

Laura Ingraham? Have you watched her lately? She's horrible. She is no doubt an intelligent woman, but her shtick is approaching Michelle Malkin levels.

 

[timschochet]

major league ownage right here

people are still talking about this?

Wow. That is like talking to so many of our conservatives right here at FBGs.

Here, if you hate what the FBG conservatives have to say, spend some time with this....See those who have raised questions about the legitimacy of Obama presidency

Warning to Choke: Opposing view contained inside link.

That's a pretty sad list, Jewel. Contrary to your claim (and World Net Daily) it doesn't serve to legitimize the questions. What it does is serve to further delegitimize the people who ask them. I wasn't surprised to see Steve King, Sarah Palin, or JD Hayworth on that list; given their type of politics, this is par for the course. But Laura Ingraham and Newt Gingrich know better; they are just pandering to the crazies, and should be ashamed of themselves.

Laura Ingraham? Have you watched her lately? She's horrible. She is no doubt an intelligent woman, but her shtick is approaching Michelle Malkin levels.

I haven't watched her lately. A few years back I enjoyed her as one of the more insightful conservative commentators, along the lines of a Dennis Prager or Michael Medved. Apparently she's regressed. Sad.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Obama should gladly oblige even bat#### crazy constituents

I disagree.

This really should be a no-brainer, and it's difficult to figure out why people defend the way he is handling this.

No doubt, he has a reason for not caving to the demands. Perhaps it's one of the following:1) There is something on the birth certificate that he'd rather not disclose publicly (perhaps a reference to being muslim, maybe the age of his morther, who knows)

2) Caving to loons with an agenda will only encourage more attacks from the bat#### crazy contingent.

3) Having the bat#### crazy loons continue to spout off has a negative effect on the legitimacy of genuine policy opponents.

These may be good reasons, or horrible reasons. But regardless of what the reason is, it doesn't take anything away from the fact that the birthers are still bat#### crazy.

There will always be bat#### crazy loons making ridiculous requests in this country. But this is a request that should be easy to accomodate - and it's hardly "caving" when the Federal government asks for requires the exact same document from US citizens to simply cross the border. Discard 2) & 3). If the demands were for something completely unreasonable or objectionable, I'd agree with you. That isn't the case here.I lean towards agreeing with 1), but based upon the evidence I feel a stronger case can be made that there actually is no documentation of his actual birth due to the circumstances under which he appears to have been born (and which he's been caught in several lies, some of those lies actually contradicting themselves in trying to detail those circumstances). That he appears to have been born out of wedlock to a mixed raced couple was not disclosed would not be surprising given the date that he was born - nor should that be held in any way against him or prevent him from qualifying for being President.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Always amusing the way Birthers like Bronco Billy pretend they're not really Birthers.

His appearance here to defend the birthers is laughably predictable.

I freely concede Obama was born in Hawaii - and I don't qualify his claim to citizenship at all. I have been consistent with that position all along. How does that make me a Birther again?

 

[timschochet]

I lean towards agreeing with 1), but based upon the evidence I feel a stronger case can be made that there actually is no documentation of his actual birth due to the circumstances under which he appears to have been born (and which he's been caught in several lies, some of those lies actually contradicting themselves in trying to detail those circumstances). That he appears to have been born out of wedlock to a mixed raced couple was not disclosed would not be surprising given the date that he was born - nor should that be held in any way against him or prevent him from qualifying for being President.

Can you please link to where President Obama lied about this, and then demonstrate why his statements are false? TIA

 

[Choke]

accomodate

#### that.Unreasonable. Denied. You get what the state regulations have determined everyone gets.

 

[bigbottom]

I lean towards agreeing with 1), but based upon the evidence I feel a stronger case can be made that there actually is no documentation of his actual birth due to the circumstances under which he appears to have been born

So the Governor of Hawaii and Hawaii state officials are lying? And what is your theory on how he obtained a U.S. Passport with no documentation of his birth?

 

[Bronco Billy]

Can you please link to where President Obama lied about this, and then demonstrate why his statements are false? TIA

I'd prefer not to, since it's not relevant to the argument at hand.His autobiography and his public statements contradict the facts that his mother and biological father were never legally married and his father wasn't in his life until leaving when he was 2. That isn't the issue here and should have no bearing on his qualifications to be President, and as I stated earlier shouldn't be held against him in any way (unless one wants to make a case that he has built a false past for himself - which again isn't the issue being debated here).

 

[MasterofOrion]

I lean towards agreeing with 1), but based upon the evidence I feel a stronger case can be made that there actually is no documentation of his actual birth due to the circumstances under which he appears to have been born (and which he's been caught in several lies, some of those lies actually contradicting themselves in trying to detail those circumstances). That he appears to have been born out of wedlock to a mixed raced couple was not disclosed would not be surprising given the date that he was born - nor should that be held in any way against him or prevent him from qualifying for being President.

Can you please link to where President Obama lied about this, and then demonstrate why his statements are false? TIA

Where Obama was born isn't that big a deal to me. But the amount of effort and money to suppress looking at the document raises red flags. Sorry, but a birth certificate is about as benign a documented as you can get. I know I wouldn't care if you saw my birth certificate. Also, most of Obama's history is a mystery: Not what you want for President of the USA.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I lean towards agreeing with 1), but based upon the evidence I feel a stronger case can be made that there actually is no documentation of his actual birth due to the circumstances under which he appears to have been born

So the Governor of Hawaii and Hawaii state officials are lying? And what is your theory on how he obtained a U.S. Passport with no documentation of his birth?

He traveled under his mother's passport when he was young. That's also well documented. As such, he had record of a passport with the Federal government and therefore could renew under his own name.And I want to be certain that you are making your argument based upon the unfliching truthfulness of politicians. That is your case, correct?

 

[pantagrapher]

Always amusing the way Birthers like Bronco Billy pretend they're not really Birthers.

His appearance here to defend the birthers is laughably predictable.

I freely concede Obama was born in Hawaii - and I don't qualify his claim to citizenship at all. I have been consistent with that position all along. How does that make me a Birther again?

If you believe he's born in Hawaii, then try arguing that indulging Birthers and their myriad conspiracy theories is a waste of time.

 

[MasterofOrion]

I lean towards agreeing with 1), but based upon the evidence I feel a stronger case can be made that there actually is no documentation of his actual birth due to the circumstances under which he appears to have been born

So the Governor of Hawaii and Hawaii state officials are lying? And what is your theory on how he obtained a U.S. Passport with no documentation of his birth?

Wrong question. Why would a Governor and state officials even care about a birth certificate? Seriously it is just a birth certificate.Being a citizen in a requirement of being POUSA. Hell the government is taking my medical records and putting them in a national data base. That is a lot more invasive and has more personal information than a birth certificate.

 

[igbomb]

I lean towards agreeing with 1), but based upon the evidence I feel a stronger case can be made that there actually is no documentation of his actual birth due to the circumstances under which he appears to have been born (and which he's been caught in several lies, some of those lies actually contradicting themselves in trying to detail those circumstances). That he appears to have been born out of wedlock to a mixed raced couple was not disclosed would not be surprising given the date that he was born - nor should that be held in any way against him or prevent him from qualifying for being President.

Can you please link to where President Obama lied about this, and then demonstrate why his statements are false? TIA

Where Obama was born isn't that big a deal to me. But the amount of effort and money to suppress looking at the document raises red flags. Sorry, but a birth certificate is about as benign a documented as you can get. I know I wouldn't care if you saw my birth certificate. Also, most of Obama's history is a mystery: Not what you want for President of the USA.

The only reason that there has been ongoing 'suppression' is because there is an ignorant hateful segment of this country that is pushing the item so far.Even if Obama released every imaginable document tomorrow and they showed a benign, non-controversial history, the aforementioned group would claim that there is a conspiracy or cover-up or someone is lying, etc. And I am guessing that Obama is smart enough to realize that these people won't ever be satisfied.And people like you who say he should just give in to make them go away are part of the problem, and entirely wrong. They won't go away.

 

[timschochet]

Can you please link to where President Obama lied about this, and then demonstrate why his statements are false? TIA

I'd prefer not to, since it's not relevant to the argument at hand.His autobiography and his public statements contradict the facts that his mother and biological father were never legally married and his father wasn't in his life until leaving when he was 2. That isn't the issue here and should have no bearing on his qualifications to be President, and as I stated earlier shouldn't be held against him in any way (unless one wants to make a case that he has built a false past for himself - which again isn't the issue being debated here).

First, I don't think this is true.Second, when you call the POTUS a liar about his early childhood, it is absolutely relevant to the issue at hand. I would like to see proof that he is a liar.

And why do you prefer not to show it? This is a rather simple request, isn't it?

 

[Bronco Billy]

Always amusing the way Birthers like Bronco Billy pretend they're not really Birthers.

His appearance here to defend the birthers is laughably predictable.

I freely concede Obama was born in Hawaii - and I don't qualify his claim to citizenship at all. I have been consistent with that position all along. How does that make me a Birther again?

If you believe he's born in Hawaii, then try arguing that indulging Birthers is a waste of time.

I won't make that case, but that doesn't preclude Obama presenting his birth certificate if asked for it by those he governs under our system. If the Birthers see that and still feel the need to pretend he was born in Kenya or Mars or where ever else they want to pretend he was born - nothing is going to stop that. But they still are citizens of this country, this country still does have a Constitution - as twisted as it is being interpretted - and there is a real claim as citizens, no matter how crazy, to see this simple documentation to confirm compliance with the very simple requirements for President that the Constitution puts forth.People may rightfully see the Birthers are mad-dog nuts, but they do have a legitimate claim. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't preclude that. In fact, citizens in this country should support their request, even if they whole-heartedly denounce their motives.

 

[MasterofOrion]

The only reason that there has been ongoing 'suppression' is because there is an ignorant hateful segment of this country that is pushing the item so far.Even if Obama released every imaginable document tomorrow and they showed a benign, non-controversial history, the aforementioned group would claim that there is a conspiracy or cover-up or someone is lying, etc. And I am guessing that Obama is smart enough to realize that these people won't ever be satisfied.And people like you who say he should just give in to make them go away are part of the problem, and entirely wrong. They won't go away.

That answer is very unsatisfying to me.Politics is a nasty business. Both sides get at much dirt on the other side as they can get. If you don't want every inch of your life analyzed don't run for POTUS.

 

[Jewell]

major league ownage right here

people are still talking about this?

Wow. That is like talking to so many of our conservatives right here at FBGs.

Here, if you hate what the FBG conservatives have to say, spend some time with this....See those who have raised questions about the legitimacy of Obama presidency

Warning to Choke: Opposing view contained inside link.

That's a pretty sad list, Jewel. Contrary to your claim (and World Net Daily) it doesn't serve to legitimize the questions. What it does is serve to further delegitimize the people who ask them. I wasn't surprised to see Steve King, Sarah Palin, or JD Hayworth on that list; given their type of politics, this is par for the course. But Laura Ingraham and Newt Gingrich know better; they are just pandering to the crazies, and should be ashamed of themselves.

Just like any other group you get a bell curve distribution. Some hate-filled crazies, some people that you'd expect to raise issues, but also some surprising voices. Feel free to disregard the first group and even the second group, but the latter group generally shows that it's not a wholly partisan attack."But Laura Ingraham and Newt Gingrich know better; they are just pandering to the crazies, and should be ashamed of themselves."

Of course, you probably don't see it like that because you just summed up all opposition as "crazies".

And I won't pretend to know what Ingraham and Gingrich actually think.

 

[Mister Martie]

Always amusing the way Birthers like Bronco Billy pretend they're not really Birthers.

His appearance here to defend the birthers is laughably predictable.

I freely concede Obama was born in Hawaii - and I don't qualify his claim to citizenship at all. I have been consistent with that position all along. How does that make me a Birther again?

If you believe he's born in Hawaii, then try arguing that indulging Birthers and their myriad conspiracy theories is a waste of time.

No, you see, this way PBoy can have his cake and eat it too. He can make some 40+ posts in this thread defending the claims of birthers while still pretending that he isn't one of them. I too often spend lots of time defending people whose views I don't agree with so I don't know what's so strange about this.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Can you please link to where President Obama lied about this, and then demonstrate why his statements are false? TIA

I'd prefer not to, since it's not relevant to the argument at hand.His autobiography and his public statements contradict the facts that his mother and biological father were never legally married and his father wasn't in his life until leaving when he was 2. That isn't the issue here and should have no bearing on his qualifications to be President, and as I stated earlier shouldn't be held against him in any way (unless one wants to make a case that he has built a false past for himself - which again isn't the issue being debated here).

First, I don't think this is true.Second, when you call the POTUS a liar about his early childhood, it is absolutely relevant to the issue at hand. I would like to see proof that he is a liar.

And why do you prefer not to show it? This is a rather simple request, isn't it?

Believe what you want timmy. I'm not going to waste time arguing with you. Don't ask me to prove a negative. Deal with it yourself and find a marraige certificate between Stanley Anne Dunham and Barrack Obama Sr. It would be a public record, and it doesn't exist.

 

[timschochet]

Even if Obama released every imaginable document tomorrow and they showed a benign, non-controversial history, the aforementioned group would claim that there is a conspiracy or cover-up or someone is lying, etc. And I am guessing that Obama is smart enough to realize that these people won't ever be satisfied.

And people like you who say he should just give in to make them go away are part of the problem, and entirely wrong. They won't go away.

One only need perform a cursory examination of the history of conspiracy theories- from the German "Stabbed in the back" theory to the JFK Assassination to Vince Foster to the 9/11 Truthers- A key aspect to these theories is that there is no way to debunk them, ever. You can debunk certain aspects, but like Hydra they continue to grow.

For example, what would happen if Obama did as Bronco is asking and released the "original" birth certificate (if there is such a thing)? World Net Daily would feature an "expert" who would claim it was a forgery. Then the people who were signatories would be investigated; rumors would be spread that they died under mysterious circumstances- etc.

 

[pantagrapher]

Always amusing the way Birthers like Bronco Billy pretend they're not really Birthers.

His appearance here to defend the birthers is laughably predictable.

I freely concede Obama was born in Hawaii - and I don't qualify his claim to citizenship at all. I have been consistent with that position all along. How does that make me a Birther again?

If you believe he's born in Hawaii, then try arguing that indulging Birthers is a waste of time.

I won't make that case, but that doesn't preclude Obama presenting his birth certificate if asked for it by those he governs under our system.

The President doesn't have to indulge every wacko right wing conspiracy theory out there. Let them tug their beards and foam at the mouth. I know he was born in Hawaii. You know he was born in Hawaii. Let it go.

 

[igbomb]

Always amusing the way Birthers like Bronco Billy pretend they're not really Birthers.

His appearance here to defend the birthers is laughably predictable.

I freely concede Obama was born in Hawaii - and I don't qualify his claim to citizenship at all. I have been consistent with that position all along. How does that make me a Birther again?

If you believe he's born in Hawaii, then try arguing that indulging Birthers is a waste of time.

I won't make that case, but that doesn't preclude Obama presenting his birth certificate if asked for it by those he governs under our system. If the Birthers see that and still feel the need to pretend he was born in Kenya or Mars or where ever else they want to pretend he was born - nothing is going to stop that. But they still are citizens of this country, this country still does have a Constitution - as twisted as it is being interpretted - and there is a real claim as citizens, no matter how crazy, to see this simple documentation to confirm compliance with the very simple requirements for President that the Constitution puts forth.People may rightfully see the Birthers are mad-dog nuts, but they do have a legitimate claim. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't preclude that. In fact, citizens in this country should support their request, even if they whole-heartedly denounce their motives.

So how big does a group need to be to trip into this realm of deserving to have their requests satisfied? And where do we draw the line on what is a reasonable request and what isn't? I'd love to sit down with the President for an hour and ask him questions about his life and this country. But that doesn't in any way entitle me to this sit-down just because I want it real bad. The birthers are nuts and deserve no response on the issue, citizens or not.

 

[timschochet]

Believe what you want timmy. I'm not going to waste time arguing with you. Don't ask me to prove a negative.

What more needs to be said?

 

[MasterofOrion]

For example, what would happen if Obama did as Bronco is asking and released the "original" birth certificate (if there is such a thing)? World Net Daily would feature an "expert" who would claim it was a forgery. Then the people who were signatories would be investigated; rumors would be spread that they died under mysterious circumstances- etc.

When you make this number of assumptions is sounds like a conspiracy theory.

 

[pantagrapher]

Always amusing the way Birthers like Bronco Billy pretend they're not really Birthers.

His appearance here to defend the birthers is laughably predictable.

I freely concede Obama was born in Hawaii - and I don't qualify his claim to citizenship at all. I have been consistent with that position all along. How does that make me a Birther again?

If you believe he's born in Hawaii, then try arguing that indulging Birthers and their myriad conspiracy theories is a waste of time.

No, you see, this way PBoy can have his cake and eat it too. He can make some 40+ posts in this thread defending the claims of birthers while still pretending that he isn't one of them. I too often spend lots of time defending people whose views I don't agree with so I don't know what's so strange about this.

Exactly. Sam Quentin tried this same BS on page one of the thread. The old "I'm going to passionately make every argument Birthers make, but since everyone knows Birthers are insane, I'm going to deny being a Birther."

 

[Orange Crush]

There is no suppression of documents. Then candidate Obama asked the state of Hawaii to disclose the records they had pertaining to his birth and they did. The "birther" conspiracy continues because of their insistance that a "long form" birth certificate with very specific information needs to be presented. No such original, paper document exists. Not because it never existed, but because the state of Hawaii transferred the information from all stored birth certificates dating back to 1908 to electronic records about ten years ago, AND THEN DESTROYED THE ORIGINALS.

(I've posted this link before in the thread, yet it was apparently ignored)

When the official from Hawaii says that she's "personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures" she is referring to the electronic record, which, under Hawaii policies and procedures, is now considered the original.

Hawaii Health Department spokeswoman Janice Okubo has said the department "does not have a short-form or long-form certificate .... [What Obama released] is the same certified copy everyone receives when they request a birth certificate."

What the Obama campaign produced, and what Hawaii gave him, is an official government record of his birth, and it is accepted by the State Department for the issuance of a passport for ALL persons born in Hawaii.

But the birther conspiracy will live on forever, thanks to the birthers delusions of conspiracy regarding a document that cannot be produced because it doesn't exist.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Always amusing the way Birthers like Bronco Billy pretend they're not really Birthers.

His appearance here to defend the birthers is laughably predictable.

I freely concede Obama was born in Hawaii - and I don't qualify his claim to citizenship at all. I have been consistent with that position all along. How does that make me a Birther again?

If you believe he's born in Hawaii, then try arguing that indulging Birthers and their myriad conspiracy theories is a waste of time.

No, you see, this way PBoy can have his cake and eat it too. He can make some 40+ posts in this thread defending the claims of birthers while still pretending that he isn't one of them. I too often spend lots of time defending people whose views I don't agree with so I don't know what's so strange about this.

I also defend the KKKs right to hold a parade in Skokie, ILL and the right of people to burn the flag, while I would hardly be a member of either group and actively detest their actions.That's not that difficult to understand, even for someone like you, is it?The Birthers are Obama's constituents. He represents them as President. They have made a simple request of documentation from him - documentation that the Federal government also requires for certain privledges much less significant than serving as President. The Constitution supports that simple request. He should not only honor that request, but should do so quickly and gladly.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Believe what you want timmy. I'm not going to waste time arguing with you. Don't ask me to prove a negative.

What more needs to be said?

That you can't find documentation of a public document that you insist exists?

 

[igbomb]

His appearance here to defend the birthers is laughably predictable.

I freely concede Obama was born in Hawaii - and I don't qualify his claim to citizenship at all. I have been consistent with that position all along. How does that make me a Birther again?

If you believe he's born in Hawaii, then try arguing that indulging Birthers and their myriad conspiracy theories is a waste of time.

No, you see, this way PBoy can have his cake and eat it too. He can make some 40+ posts in this thread defending the claims of birthers while still pretending that he isn't one of them. I too often spend lots of time defending people whose views I don't agree with so I don't know what's so strange about this.

I also defend the KKKs right to hold a parade in Skokie, ILL and the right of people to burn the flag, while I would hardly be a member of either group and actively detest their actions.That's not that difficult to understand, even for someone like you, is it?The Birthers are Obama's constituents. He represents them as President. They have made a simple request of documentation from him - documentation that the Federal government also requires for certain privledges much less significant than serving as President. The Constitution supports that simple request. He should not only honor that request, but should do so quickly and gladly.

Defending their rights isn't the same as defending their cause. Your position is as inconsistent as saying that you think the KKK is bad yet think that their positions are perfectly reasonable.

 

[Jewell]

No, you see, this way PBoy can have his cake and eat it too. He can make some 40+ posts in this thread defending the claims of birthers while still pretending that he isn't one of them. I too often spend lots of time defending people whose views I don't agree with so I don't know what's so strange about this.

Exactly. Sam Quentin tried this same BS on page one of the thread. The old "I'm going to passionately make every argument Birthers make, but since everyone knows Birthers are insane, I'm going to deny being a Birther."

Defending a minority position makes you a member of that minority? What? We might as well rename this place Muslimguys then because I see loads of people making pro-Muslim arguments, and never once did it dawn on me that they were secretly just fronting and were Muslims all along.

 

[Mister Martie]

I freely concede Obama was born in Hawaii - and I don't qualify his claim to citizenship at all. I have been consistent with that position all along. How does that make me a Birther again?

What I don't understand, if there is no basis for any of this, is why Obama simply won't release his birth certificate and allow access to his college records.

He does that and any controversy is over, period, and all conspiracy theorists have egg all over their face. Instead, he invests a million dollars a year every year in paying a law firm to ensure that no one has any access to any of these records. He's intentionally giving credibility to the argument.

That looks like smoke to me. Is there fire?

I don't know if he is a natural born citizen or not. I haven't seen sufficient proof either way to convince me. I do know that the Constitution requires of a President that they be a natural born citizen of the United States.

Answer me this: Why did the hospital he was born in change in the past month or so?

He was originally supposedly born at Queen's Medical Center, but recently his official place of birth changed to Kapi'olani Medical Center. How does that happen?

[Whoopi]

Well what do you think?

[/Whoopi]

I honestly don't know. I do know that if this evolves into something substantial it could amount to a massive black eye for us, which I'd sincerely prefer not to see. I'd just like to see some verification. I also am practical enough to know that I probably never will and that the debate will continue to evolve into more name calling rather than a calling for facts.

 

[MasterofOrion]

So how big does a group need to be to trip into this realm of deserving to have their requests satisfied? And where do we draw the line on what is a reasonable request and what isn't? I'd love to sit down with the President for an hour and ask him questions about his life and this country. But that doesn't in any way entitle me to this sit-down just because I want it real bad. The birthers are nuts and deserve no response on the issue, citizens or not.

The argument is, it isn't worth the Presidents time? Being a citizen is a requirement of the POTUS. Opening up your birth certificate should stop the "crazies" (your term not mine) in their tracks and even give you a campaign issue. How much effort is it really to open up you birth certificate compared to the effort they are going in suppressing it? To me, from a time stand point, it would be far more efficacious to open up the birth certificate.

 

[timschochet]

For example, what would happen if Obama did as Bronco is asking and released the "original" birth certificate (if there is such a thing)? World Net Daily would feature an "expert" who would claim it was a forgery. Then the people who were signatories would be investigated; rumors would be spread that they died under mysterious circumstances- etc.

When you make this number of assumptions is sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Actually, my assumptions on this are based on history- the history of various other conspiracy theories. The Vince Foster one was a good example. The police concluded it was a suicide. Then right wing radio started spreading the rumor that Hillary Clinton ordered Vince Foster assassinated, because they were lovers (this was before Hillary was assumed to be a lesbian) and because Foster knew all about Whitewater. A whole bunch of false iinformation was spread on videos like "The Clinton Chronicles", which was peddled by Jerry Fallwell and endorsed by Rush Limbaugh. In order to debunk these theories, the DC Police produced a suicide note by Foster. They had kept it under wraps for about a year after his death out of respect for his privacy, but finally released it to the media in the hopes of debunking the conspiracy.Immediately several forgery "experts" appeared that claimed this note was not Vince Foster's actual handwriting. These experts appeared on one right-wing talk show after another and stated that the note was a fabrication. And the conspiracy only continued to grow, now given added attention from the release of the note. There are still some conservatives out there who believe that Foster was murdered. I wouldn't be surprised if Bronco was one of them.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Defending their rights isn't the same as defending their cause.

Exactly. Not sure how you miss this very important difference with your second statement.

 

[MasterofOrion]

There is no suppression of documents. Then candidate Obama asked the state of Hawaii to disclose the records they had pertaining to his birth and they did. The "birther" conspiracy continues because of their insistance that a "long form" birth certificate with very specific information needs to be presented. No such original, paper document exists. Not because it never existed, but because the state of Hawaii transferred the information from all stored birth certificates dating back to 1908 to electronic records about ten years ago, AND THEN DESTROYED THE ORIGINALS.

(I've posted this link before in the thread, yet it was apparently ignored)

When the official from Hawaii says that she's "personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures" she is referring to the electronic record, which, under Hawaii policies and procedures, is now considered the original.

Hawaii Health Department spokeswoman Janice Okubo has said the department "does not have a short-form or long-form certificate .... [What Obama released] is the same certified copy everyone receives when they request a birth certificate."

What the Obama campaign produced, and what Hawaii gave him, is an official government record of his birth, and it is accepted by the State Department for the issuance of a passport for ALL persons born in Hawaii.

But the birther conspiracy will live on forever, thanks to the birthers delusions of conspiracy regarding a document that cannot be produced because it doesn't exist.

Have they opened up the electronic record, or is it being suppressed? I don't know.

 

[pantagrapher]

No, you see, this way PBoy can have his cake and eat it too. He can make some 40+ posts in this thread defending the claims of birthers while still pretending that he isn't one of them. I too often spend lots of time defending people whose views I don't agree with so I don't know what's so strange about this.

Exactly. Sam Quentin tried this same BS on page one of the thread. The old "I'm going to passionately make every argument Birthers make, but since everyone knows Birthers are insane, I'm going to deny being a Birther."

Defending a minority position makes you a member of that minority?

Nope.The undercover Birther phenomenon is more like using a crazy person's doubts as cover for your own.

 

[MasterofOrion]

For example, what would happen if Obama did as Bronco is asking and released the "original" birth certificate (if there is such a thing)? World Net Daily would feature an "expert" who would claim it was a forgery. Then the people who were signatories would be investigated; rumors would be spread that they died under mysterious circumstances- etc.

When you make this number of assumptions is sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Actually, my assumptions on this are based on history- the history of various other conspiracy theories. The Vince Foster one was a good example. The police concluded it was a suicide. Then right wing radio started spreading the rumor that Hillary Clinton ordered Vince Foster assassinated, because they were lovers (this was before Hillary was assumed to be a lesbian) and because Foster knew all about Whitewater. A whole bunch of false iinformation was spread on videos like "The Clinton Chronicles", which was peddled by Jerry Fallwell and endorsed by Rush Limbaugh. In order to debunk these theories, the DC Police produced a suicide note by Foster. They had kept it under wraps for about a year after his death out of respect for his privacy, but finally released it to the media in the hopes of debunking the conspiracy.Immediately several forgery "experts" appeared that claimed this note was not Vince Foster's actual handwriting. These experts appeared on one right-wing talk show after another and stated that the note was a fabrication. And the conspiracy only continued to grow, now given added attention from the release of the note. There are still some conservatives out there who believe that Foster was murdered. I wouldn't be surprised if Bronco was one of them.

No doubt there will be conspiracy theories either way. Both sides do this. There will be conspiracy theories no mater what you do. It is sad but it should also be expected. It also should not be a reason to suppress a document, if indeed that have (Orange Crush made some salient points), that is required to be POTUS.

 

[Sam Quentin]

Well for one, as Cooper points out, the form that has been made publicly available is all that is required to secure a passport. There is no additional document that would be required that has not been released.

I didn't see Cooper's post, but if that was his statement he would be wrong. The US government doesn't accept the certificate of live birth document that is being shown as acceptable for acquiring a passport. In fact, that document is one that can be easily obtained by anyone, including people not born in this country. It is just documentation from Hawaii acknowedging the existance of a person, no more.But again, that shades the issue. The President presides over all people in this country. That is reason enough to accomodate a simple and reasonable request from a group of them asking for a document that should be very simple for him to provide (and would certanily be much more cost effective than sending DoJ representatives into court to head off suits requesting that document).

He's already provided the long form birth certificate to the federal government prior to his election,

I was not aware of this. Is there a link? Last I knew on this issue was that there was no federal government authority to show the long form certicate to. It would be useful to know what government office is accountableThanksThanks

 

[pantagrapher]

For example, what would happen if Obama did as Bronco is asking and released the "original" birth certificate (if there is such a thing)? World Net Daily would feature an "expert" who would claim it was a forgery. Then the people who were signatories would be investigated; rumors would be spread that they died under mysterious circumstances- etc.

When you make this number of assumptions is sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Actually, my assumptions on this are based on history- the history of various other conspiracy theories. The Vince Foster one was a good example. The police concluded it was a suicide. Then right wing radio started spreading the rumor that Hillary Clinton ordered Vince Foster assassinated, because they were lovers (this was before Hillary was assumed to be a lesbian) and because Foster knew all about Whitewater. A whole bunch of false iinformation was spread on videos like "The Clinton Chronicles", which was peddled by Jerry Fallwell and endorsed by Rush Limbaugh. In order to debunk these theories, the DC Police produced a suicide note by Foster. They had kept it under wraps for about a year after his death out of respect for his privacy, but finally released it to the media in the hopes of debunking the conspiracy.Immediately several forgery "experts" appeared that claimed this note was not Vince Foster's actual handwriting. These experts appeared on one right-wing talk show after another and stated that the note was a fabrication. And the conspiracy only continued to grow, now given added attention from the release of the note. There are still some conservatives out there who believe that Foster was murdered. I wouldn't be surprised if Bronco was one of them.

This is exactly the way it works. Once you let people like the Birthers get a foot in the door, whatever you give them just gets fed into the conspiracy machine.

 

[EasyMorningRebel]

For example, what would happen if Obama did as Bronco is asking and released the "original" birth certificate (if there is such a thing)? World Net Daily would feature an "expert" who would claim it was a forgery. Then the people who were signatories would be investigated; rumors would be spread that they died under mysterious circumstances- etc.

When you make this number of assumptions is sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Actually, my assumptions on this are based on history- the history of various other conspiracy theories. The Vince Foster one was a good example. The police concluded it was a suicide. Then right wing radio started spreading the rumor that Hillary Clinton ordered Vince Foster assassinated, because they were lovers (this was before Hillary was assumed to be a lesbian) and because Foster knew all about Whitewater. A whole bunch of false iinformation was spread on videos like "The Clinton Chronicles", which was peddled by Jerry Fallwell and endorsed by Rush Limbaugh. In order to debunk these theories, the DC Police produced a suicide note by Foster. They had kept it under wraps for about a year after his death out of respect for his privacy, but finally released it to the media in the hopes of debunking the conspiracy.Immediately several forgery "experts" appeared that claimed this note was not Vince Foster's actual handwriting. These experts appeared on one right-wing talk show after another and stated that the note was a fabrication. And the conspiracy only continued to grow, now given added attention from the release of the note. There are still some conservatives out there who believe that Foster was murdered. I wouldn't be surprised if Bronco was one of them.

What a crock...nothing you've listed is proof of anything. As usual, it's nothing more than your opinion. Sorry, Tim, a conspiracy theory can't be disproven with condescension.

 

[Sam Quentin]

I am fully convinced that the birthers are so bat#### crazy that the production of the long form birth certificate would not satisfy them. Nothing else to date (certificate of live birth, attestation of the Hawaii governor and state officials, contemporaneous newspaper announcements of the birth, etc.) has satisfied them. I have no reason to believe that they will suddenly become sane logical people.

Obama should gladly oblige even bat#### crazy constituents....

And validate them? No.

way to be a uniter and not a dividerextending the olive branchhope and changeit's a silly issue, but it's a lso a microcosm of why he's so unpopular.