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The Case Against Global-Warming Skepticism (1 Viewer)

Update: Muller says that essentially all of the recent increase in average global temperature has resulted from the human emission of greenhouse gases.

The Conversion of a Climate-Change Skeptic

By RICHARD A. MULLER

Published: July 28, 2012

CALL me a converted skeptic. Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming. Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause.

My total turnaround, in such a short time, is the result of careful and objective analysis by the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature project, which I founded with my daughter Elizabeth. Our results show that the average temperature of the earth’s land has risen by two and a half degrees Fahrenheit over the past 250 years, including an increase of one and a half degrees over the most recent 50 years. Moreover, it appears likely that essentially all of this increase results from the human emission of greenhouse gases.

These findings are stronger than those of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the United Nations group that defines the scientific and diplomatic consensus on global warming. In its 2007 report, the I.P.C.C. concluded only that most of the warming of the prior 50 years could be attributed to humans. It was possible, according to the I.P.C.C. consensus statement, that the warming before 1956 could be because of changes in solar activity, and that even a substantial part of the more recent warming could be natural.

Our Berkeley Earth approach used sophisticated statistical methods developed largely by our lead scientist, Robert Rohde, which allowed us to determine earth land temperature much further back in time. We carefully studied issues raised by skeptics: biases from urban heating (we duplicated our results using rural data alone), from data selection (prior groups selected fewer than 20 percent of the available temperature stations; we used virtually 100 percent), from poor station quality (we separately analyzed good stations and poor ones) and from human intervention and data adjustment (our work is completely automated and hands-off). In our papers we demonstrate that none of these potentially troublesome effects unduly biased our conclusions.

The historic temperature pattern we observed has abrupt dips that match the emissions of known explosive volcanic eruptions; the particulates from such events reflect sunlight, make for beautiful sunsets and cool the earth’s surface for a few years. There are small, rapid variations attributable to El Niño and other ocean currents such as the Gulf Stream; because of such oscillations, the “flattening” of the recent temperature rise that some people claim is not, in our view, statistically significant. What has caused the gradual but systematic rise of two and a half degrees? We tried fitting the shape to simple math functions (exponentials, polynomials), to solar activity and even to rising functions like world population. By far the best match was to the record of atmospheric carbon dioxide, measured from atmospheric samples and air trapped in polar ice.

Just as important, our record is long enough that we could search for the fingerprint of solar variability, based on the historical record of sunspots. That fingerprint is absent. Although the I.P.C.C. allowed for the possibility that variations in sunlight could have ended the “Little Ice Age,” a period of cooling from the 14th century to about 1850, our data argues strongly that the temperature rise of the past 250 years cannot be attributed to solar changes. This conclusion is, in retrospect, not too surprising; we’ve learned from satellite measurements that solar activity changes the brightness of the sun very little.

How definite is the attribution to humans? The carbon dioxide curve gives a better match than anything else we’ve tried. Its magnitude is consistent with the calculated greenhouse effect — extra warming from trapped heat radiation. These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism, but they raise the bar: to be considered seriously, an alternative explanation must match the data at least as well as carbon dioxide does. Adding methane, a second greenhouse gas, to our analysis doesn’t change the results. Moreover, our analysis does not depend on large, complex global climate models, the huge computer programs that are notorious for their hidden assumptions and adjustable parameters. Our result is based simply on the close agreement between the shape of the observed temperature rise and the known greenhouse gas increase.

It’s a scientist’s duty to be properly skeptical. I still find that much, if not most, of what is attributed to climate change is speculative, exaggerated or just plain wrong. I’ve analyzed some of the most alarmist claims, and my skepticism about them hasn’t changed.

Hurricane Katrina cannot be attributed to global warming. The number of hurricanes hitting the United States has been going down, not up; likewise for intense tornadoes. Polar bears aren’t dying from receding ice, and the Himalayan glaciers aren’t going to melt by 2035. And it’s possible that we are currently no warmer than we were a thousand years ago, during the “Medieval Warm Period” or “Medieval Optimum,” an interval of warm conditions known from historical records and indirect evidence like tree rings. And the recent warm spell in the United States happens to be more than offset by cooling elsewhere in the world, so its link to “global” warming is weaker than tenuous.

The careful analysis by our team is laid out in five scientific papers now online at BerkeleyEarth.org. That site also shows our chart of temperature from 1753 to the present, with its clear fingerprint of volcanoes and carbon dioxide, but containing no component that matches solar activity. Four of our papers have undergone extensive scrutiny by the scientific community, and the newest, a paper with the analysis of the human component, is now posted, along with the data and computer programs used. Such transparency is the heart of the scientific method; if you find our conclusions implausible, tell us of any errors of data or analysis.

What about the future? As carbon dioxide emissions increase, the temperature should continue to rise. I expect the rate of warming to proceed at a steady pace, about one and a half degrees over land in the next 50 years, less if the oceans are included. But if China continues its rapid economic growth (it has averaged 10 percent per year over the last 20 years) and its vast use of coal (it typically adds one new gigawatt per month), then that same warming could take place in less than 20 years.

Science is that narrow realm of knowledge that, in principle, is universally accepted. I embarked on this analysis to answer questions that, to my mind, had not been answered. I hope that the Berkeley Earth analysis will help settle the scientific debate regarding global warming and its human causes. Then comes the difficult part: agreeing across the political and diplomatic spectrum about what can and should be done.
 
Update: Muller says that essentially all of the recent increase in average global temperature has resulted from the human emission of greenhouse gases.
If only the Climate Change scientists would call out bad, or at least questionable science when it agrees it with their own bias.Oh wait they did!‘For the Berkeley team to have chosen this particular moment to launch a major international publicity blitz is a highly unethical sabotage of the peer review process.’

 
This will mean nothing to the people who continue to deny the science. Global warming denial has become a religion, and religion cannot be combatted with fact or reason.

 
This will mean nothing to the people who continue to deny the science. Global warming denial has become a religion, and religion cannot be combatted with fact or reason.
From the article
These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism...
Also, from the article
It’s a scientist’s duty to be properly skeptical. I still find that much, if not most, of what is attributed to climate change is speculative, exaggerated or just plain wrong. I’ve analyzed some of the most alarmist claims, and my skepticism about them hasn’t changed.
This guy has a much more balanced view of things than you do Tim. There is terrible science on both sides, particularly the alarmists who grab most of the headlines.
 
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I just want to see a real, reasonable cost benefit analysis that focuses on the impacts on humanity rather than some ideal of a pristine environment. I want it to use reasonable minimums and maximums of our impacts on the climate with the true uncertainties made crystal clear. Then compare that to human impacts of various methods to force much higher cost energy on people. A US centric analysis and a worldwide one. As of now, I'm fairly certain we'll be much better off dealing with the effects of global warming than we would be making everything more artificially more expensive and delaying the modernization of most of the rest of the world (though I don't think we'll really have much say over that anyway). The benefits certainly outweighed global warming in the 20th century. If we have to spend money, I'd rather spending it unlocking fusion power, the only likely source that can satisfy our needs long term.

 
Well, I don't know abut anybody else, but I, for,one, one am totally convinced. I mean how could you not be petrified by these data? Seems like a slam dunk case. Now, let's all do whatever we can to obliterate humans doing...you know, stuff.

 
This will mean nothing to the people who continue to deny the science. Global warming denial has become a religion, and religion cannot be combatted with fact or reason.
Please Tim, the fanatics are solidly in the pro-Global Warming faction.
You gotta love the attempt to turn the crazy back on the other side. I mean, it's almost believable that he does this with a straight face. Almost.
 
It’s a scientist’s duty to be properly skeptical. I still find that much, if not most, of what is attributed to climate change is speculative, exaggerated or just plain wrong. I’ve analyzed some of the most alarmist claims, and my skepticism about them hasn’t changed.
:coffee:
 
Update: Muller says that essentially all of the recent increase in average global temperature has resulted from the human emission of greenhouse gases.
If only the Climate Change scientists would call out bad, or at least questionable science when it agrees it with their own bias.Oh wait they did!‘For the Berkeley team to have chosen this particular moment to launch a major international publicity blitz is a highly unethical sabotage of the peer review process.’
Translation: It doesn't fully agree with their bias until it goes to "peer review" where someone has a chance to doctor and exaggerate it, and they can all get their story straight before releasing it.
 
It’s a scientist’s duty to be properly skeptical. I still find that much, if not most, of what is attributed to climate change is speculative, exaggerated or just plain wrong. I’ve analyzed some of the most alarmist claims, and my skepticism about them hasn’t changed.
:coffee:
Pretty weak attempt at moving the goalposts.Muller still concludes that GW is happening and that it is the result of humans. You have denied that for years around here and now want to cherry pick And quotemine statements out of the article to support your revised position. You're not fooling anyone.
 
Update: Muller says that essentially all of the recent increase in average global temperature has resulted from the human emission of greenhouse gases.
If only the Climate Change scientists would call out bad, or at least questionable science when it agrees it with their own bias.Oh wait they did!‘For the Berkeley team to have chosen this particular moment to launch a major international publicity blitz is a highly unethical sabotage of the peer review process.’
Translation: It doesn't fully agree with their bias until it goes to "peer review" where someone has a chance to doctor and exaggerate it, and they can all get their story straight before releasing it.
This is just stupid!
 
Update: Muller says that essentially all of the recent increase in average global temperature has resulted from the human emission of greenhouse gases.
If only the Climate Change scientists would call out bad, or at least questionable science when it agrees it with their own bias.Oh wait they did!‘For the Berkeley team to have chosen this particular moment to launch a major international publicity blitz is a highly unethical sabotage of the peer review process.’
Translation: It doesn't fully agree with their bias until it goes to "peer review" where someone has a chance to doctor and exaggerate it, and they can all get their story straight before releasing it.
This is just stupid!
Not if you're trying to advance an agenda.
 
It’s a scientist’s duty to be properly skeptical. I still find that much, if not most, of what is attributed to climate change is speculative, exaggerated or just plain wrong. I’ve analyzed some of the most alarmist claims, and my skepticism about them hasn’t changed.
:coffee:
Pretty weak attempt at moving the goalposts.Muller still concludes that GW is happening and that it is the result of humans. You have denied that for years around here and now want to cherry pick And quotemine statements out of the article to support your revised position. You're not fooling anyone.
I do not deny that warming has occurred, just that there is proof that humans caused it. Muller believes his analysis does show a strong correlation which leads him to conclude that humans are mostly to blame. But in the same breath admits this doesn't prove causation and scientists need to remain skeptical. I haven't revised my position at all. Maybe Muller's analysis has raised the bar, but I have not spent much time trying to absorb all all he did. I just strongly disagree with the assertion that the debate is over and with all the loons who blame every natural disaster on global warming.
 
This will mean nothing to the people who continue to deny the science. Global warming denial has become a religion, and religion cannot be combatted with fact or reason.
Please Tim, the fanatics are solidly in the pro-Global Warming faction.
You gotta love the attempt to turn the crazy back on the other side. I mean, it's almost believable that he does this with a straight face. Almost.
:lmao: Really, that is the best you have?
 
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I do not deny that warming has occurred, just that there is proof that humans caused it. Muller believes his analysis does show a strong correlation which leads him to conclude that humans are mostly to blame. But in the same breath admits this doesn't prove causation and scientists need to remain skeptical. I haven't revised my position at all. Maybe Muller's analysis has raised the bar, but I have not spent much time trying to absorb all all he did. I just strongly disagree with the assertion that the debate is over and with all the loons who blame every natural disaster on global warming.
My impression is that the debate concerning whether global warming has occurred (and is occurring) is over; the debate concerning whether human activity is at least partially responsible is pretty much over. There is still debate over the relative contribution of human activity compared to other factors, but most agree that the human contribution is non-negligible. My impression is that there's no real consensus on how severe the long-term effects are likely to be, or what we should do about it.
 
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'DrJ said:
Update: Muller says that essentially all of the recent increase in average global temperature has resulted from the human emission of greenhouse gases.
If only the Climate Change scientists would call out bad, or at least questionable science when it agrees it with their own bias.Oh wait they did!‘For the Berkeley team to have chosen this particular moment to launch a major international publicity blitz is a highly unethical sabotage of the peer review process.’
Translation: It doesn't fully agree with their bias until it goes to "peer review" where someone has a chance to doctor and exaggerate it, and they can all get their story straight before releasing it.
This is just stupid!
Not if you're trying to advance an agenda.
Idiotic!
 
'Maurile Tremblay said:
'jon_mx said:
I do not deny that warming has occurred, just that there is proof that humans caused it. Muller believes his analysis does show a strong correlation which leads him to conclude that humans are mostly to blame. But in the same breath admits this doesn't prove causation and scientists need to remain skeptical. I haven't revised my position at all. Maybe Muller's analysis has raised the bar, but I have not spent much time trying to absorb all all he did. I just strongly disagree with the assertion that the debate is over and with all the loons who blame every natural disaster on global warming.
My impression is that the debate concerning whether global warming has occurred (and is occurring) is over; the debate concerning whether human activity is at least partially responsible is pretty much over. There is still debate over the relative contribution of human activity compared to other factors, but most agree that the human contribution is non-negligible. My impression is that there's no real consensus on how severe the long-term effects are likely to be, or what we should do about it.
Unfortunately you're wrong. Millions of Americans listen to conservative voices like Rush Limbaugh tell them that warming isn't happening at all and that it's all a liberal lie. Millions of Americans believe this, including some very. Important decision makers in the House, Senate, and many state governors.
 
'Maurile Tremblay said:
'jon_mx said:
I do not deny that warming has occurred, just that there is proof that humans caused it. Muller believes his analysis does show a strong correlation which leads him to conclude that humans are mostly to blame. But in the same breath admits this doesn't prove causation and scientists need to remain skeptical. I haven't revised my position at all. Maybe Muller's analysis has raised the bar, but I have not spent much time trying to absorb all all he did. I just strongly disagree with the assertion that the debate is over and with all the loons who blame every natural disaster on global warming.
My impression is that the debate concerning whether global warming has occurred (and is occurring) is over; the debate concerning whether human activity is at least partially responsible is pretty much over. There is still debate over the relative contribution of human activity compared to other factors, but most agree that the human contribution is non-negligible. My impression is that there's no real consensus on how severe the long-term effects are likely to be, or what we should do about it.
Unfortunately you're wrong. Millions of Americans listen to conservative voices like Rush Limbaugh tell them that warming isn't happening at all and that it's all a liberal lie. Millions of Americans believe this, including some very. Important decision makers in the House, Senate, and many state governors.
I think Maurile was only speaking of scientists and intellectually honest non scientist.
 
'wdcrob said:
'Maurile Tremblay said:
My impression is that the debate concerning whether global warming has occurred (and is occurring) is over; the debate concerning whether human activity is at least partially responsible is pretty much over. There is still debate over the relative contribution of human activity compared to other factors, but most agree that the human contribution is non-negligible. My impression is that there's no real consensus on how severe the long-term effects are likely to be, or what we should do about it.
Nice summary Maurile -- except that we do know what should be done. Cut greenhouse emissions.That last sentence of yours is the heart of the problem though. There's no way to know exactly what the long term consequences are going to be, so people use that as an excuse not to do anything. I agree no one knows (or can know) what will eventually happen, but serious people in the field suggest there's a real chance that something catastrophic results from continued warming.Is it a 5% chance? 10%? 50% No one knows. And they don't know who it will affect most either. Poor coastal dwellers in Southeast Asia? American multi-nationals? Ukranian farmers? Who can tell?For my money it's best to just avoid truly catastrophic possibilities that can be avoided - sooner or later you lose the roll of the dice on one of them. And to not do something because it's going to destroy someone else, but not destroy you is a ####ty way to live life as well.
There's also a chance that it's actually positive. Plants like heat and CO2, and they feed people.
 
Not an overly impressive case. I have never heard of Muller before this, now he is being promoted as this leading skeptic, which he is not. I am not sure how the only 0.5% of the globe is urbanized is calculated or why it matters. Many of these stations (27 percent) are located near areas populated my 50,000 or more people. I have no idea what their definition of urban includes. Besides, most skeptics accept that there probably has been some warming, the biggest problem is there is no real linkage to man. This study did not even address that, so this is mostly over-hyped headlines which mean nothing.
it sounds like you have studied this much more than muller so i will side with you.
 
'Maurile Tremblay said:
'jon_mx said:
I do not deny that warming has occurred, just that there is proof that humans caused it. Muller believes his analysis does show a strong correlation which leads him to conclude that humans are mostly to blame. But in the same breath admits this doesn't prove causation and scientists need to remain skeptical. I haven't revised my position at all. Maybe Muller's analysis has raised the bar, but I have not spent much time trying to absorb all all he did. I just strongly disagree with the assertion that the debate is over and with all the loons who blame every natural disaster on global warming.
My impression is that the debate concerning whether global warming has occurred (and is occurring) is over; the debate concerning whether human activity is at least partially responsible is pretty much over. There is still debate over the relative contribution of human activity compared to other factors, but most agree that the human contribution is non-negligible. My impression is that there's no real consensus on how severe the long-term effects are likely to be, or what we should do about it.
Unfortunately you're wrong. Millions of Americans listen to conservative voices like Rush Limbaugh tell them that warming isn't happening at all and that it's all a liberal lie. Millions of Americans believe this, including some very. Important decision makers in the House, Senate, and many state governors.
When Rush makes a statement that global warming is a hoax, I don't think he is denying warming is occurring. I think he is saying that the theory which says man is mostly responsible is a hoax. Not to defend Limbaugh because I am sure he has made bad arguments on the subject matter, but I think you are not correctly characterizing Limbaugh's position. Your tendency to be exaggerate what right wing pendants say and their importants is terrible schtck.
 
I've been there for a while, but I see it as less of a shift in message and more a consequence of more rigorous science being done and properly published in a fashion where skeptics could reproduce. Once more people accept that AGW is real and we get a better idea of the future magnitude, the next question is what to do about it? Unfortunately for greens, that starts to get away from a purely scientific question to ones of economics and sociology.
 
... Once more people accept that AGW is real and we get a better idea of the future magnitude, the next question is what to do about it? Unfortunately for greens, that starts to get away from a purely scientific question to ones of economics and sociology.
While there is some truth to the adage that you don't want to be sacrificed on the bleeding edge of new technology, what are the economic consequences of being left behind as the rest of the world develops green energy?
 
... Once more people accept that AGW is real and we get a better idea of the future magnitude, the next question is what to do about it? Unfortunately for greens, that starts to get away from a purely scientific question to ones of economics and sociology.
While there is some truth to the adage that you don't want to be sacrificed on the bleeding edge of new technology, what are the economic consequences of being left behind as the rest of the world develops green energy?
I'd be curious what the answer is. Can't say I know enough of the details of every possible green energy source, their likelihood of becoming cost competitive any time soon, how aggressive are European governments going to be in imposing CO2 limits, how specialized is the technology or can we just basically copy it, and hundreds of other issues.My opinion has been that we should skip this green energy phase and focus on developing a fusion power plant that can produce more energy than is put in. It's the only scientifically possible option we know of that will be able to satisfy our power requirements for the long term future. If we could do that in a decade or two most of those green energy developments would turn out to be worthless.
 
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i find it baffling that "pro business" conservatives do not see global warming as an opportunity for the US to globally lead new technology that provides clean and cheap energy.

that should be our top initiative. if we could develop this technology some of the largest countries in the world with massive pollution problems (see china and india) would be a massive buyer of this technology.

instead they just want to drill more and bad mouth innovation.

 
... Once more people accept that AGW is real and we get a better idea of the future magnitude, the next question is what to do about it? Unfortunately for greens, that starts to get away from a purely scientific question to ones of economics and sociology.
While there is some truth to the adage that you don't want to be sacrificed on the bleeding edge of new technology, what are the economic consequences of being left behind as the rest of the world develops green energy?
I'd be curious what the answer is. Can't say I know enough of the details of every possible green energy source, their likelihood of becoming cost competitive any time soon, how aggressive are European governments going to be in imposing CO2 limits, how specialized is the technology or can we just basically copy it, and hundreds of other issues.My opinion has been that we should skip this green energy phase and focus on developing a fusion power plant that can produce more energy than is put in. It's the only scientifically possible option we know of that will be able to satisfy our power requirements for the long term future. If we could do that in a decade or two most of those green energy developments would turn out to be worthless.
this is like ford saying sure i could build a car to replace the horse and buggy but i am going to forego that and see if i can build personal hovercrafts instead since those will make cars worthless.with that mentality we would all still be in horse and buggies.
 
The oil companies are probably perfectly content to concede to the science at this point. They've had a good run. They fooled a lot of people for a long time. Now the important thing becomes making sure nothing is done about global warming. If they can string out the debate on what action should be taken for another 20 to 30 years, they can call that a success and it will be money well spent.

 
i find it baffling that "pro business" conservatives do not see global warming as an opportunity for the US to globally lead new technology that provides clean and cheap energy.that should be our top initiative. if we could develop this technology some of the largest countries in the world with massive pollution problems (see china and india) would be a massive buyer of this technology.instead they just want to drill more and bad mouth innovation.
The problem is not developing new technology. That's great. The problem is, this new technology is still much more expensive than fossil fuels. So we either have to keep subsidizing these sources of power to lower the cost to the end user (essentially making everyone else pay the increase) or we have to tax the price of fossil fuels so they are more expensive. Either way, we're paying more for energy which has a massive downstream affect on almost every part of our economy. Even so, that wouldn't be awful if we had some certainty that this investment would lead to energy technology on par with fossil fuels in the next few decades. I haven't seen much evidence of that though. Also, relying on foreign countries to go along with international agreements is a scary strategy. China will probably just copy whatever we design regardless.
 
i find it baffling that "pro business" conservatives do not see global warming as an opportunity for the US to globally lead new technology that provides clean and cheap energy.that should be our top initiative. if we could develop this technology some of the largest countries in the world with massive pollution problems (see china and india) would be a massive buyer of this technology.instead they just want to drill more and bad mouth innovation.
The problem is not developing new technology. That's great. The problem is, this new technology is still much more expensive than fossil fuels. So we either have to keep subsidizing these sources of power to lower the cost to the end user (essentially making everyone else pay the increase) or we have to tax the price of fossil fuels so they are more expensive. Either way, we're paying more for energy which has a massive downstream affect on almost every part of our economy. Even so, that wouldn't be awful if we had some certainty that this investment would lead to energy technology on par with fossil fuels in the next few decades. I haven't seen much evidence of that though. Also, relying on foreign countries to go along with international agreements is a scary strategy. China will probably just copy whatever we design regardless.
Do you factor the costs of an increase in extreme weather events into your analysis?
 
'bagger said:
'Mello said:
'Bottomfeeder Sports said:
... Once more people accept that AGW is real and we get a better idea of the future magnitude, the next question is what to do about it? Unfortunately for greens, that starts to get away from a purely scientific question to ones of economics and sociology.
While there is some truth to the adage that you don't want to be sacrificed on the bleeding edge of new technology, what are the economic consequences of being left behind as the rest of the world develops green energy?
I'd be curious what the answer is. Can't say I know enough of the details of every possible green energy source, their likelihood of becoming cost competitive any time soon, how aggressive are European governments going to be in imposing CO2 limits, how specialized is the technology or can we just basically copy it, and hundreds of other issues.My opinion has been that we should skip this green energy phase and focus on developing a fusion power plant that can produce more energy than is put in. It's the only scientifically possible option we know of that will be able to satisfy our power requirements for the long term future. If we could do that in a decade or two most of those green energy developments would turn out to be worthless.
this is like ford saying sure i could build a car to replace the horse and buggy but i am going to forego that and see if i can build personal hovercrafts instead since those will make cars worthless.with that mentality we would all still be in horse and buggies.
I would say it's closer to the development of electric cars in the early 1900s when internal combustion engines would take over.
 
'wdcrob said:
My impression is that the debate concerning whether global warming has occurred (and is occurring) is over; the debate concerning whether human activity is at least partially responsible is pretty much over. There is still debate over the relative contribution of human activity compared to other factors, but most agree that the human contribution is non-negligible. My impression is that there's no real consensus on how severe the long-term effects are likely to be, or what we should do about it.
Nice summary Maurile -- except that we do know what should be done. Cut greenhouse emissions.<snip>
"We" don't know what should be done, since we don't even know who "we" is. Should the US cut greenhouse emissions knowing that China will simply increase theirs? If the only solution is to globally reduce greenhouse emissions, how do we do that?
 
'pantagrapher said:
Do you factor the costs of an increase in extreme weather events into your analysis?
Externalities..? Pfft. Shareholders > Stakeholders
 
'pantagrapher said:
'Mello said:
'bagger said:
i find it baffling that "pro business" conservatives do not see global warming as an opportunity for the US to globally lead new technology that provides clean and cheap energy.

that should be our top initiative. if we could develop this technology some of the largest countries in the world with massive pollution problems (see china and india) would be a massive buyer of this technology.

instead they just want to drill more and bad mouth innovation.
The problem is not developing new technology. That's great. The problem is, this new technology is still much more expensive than fossil fuels. So we either have to keep subsidizing these sources of power to lower the cost to the end user (essentially making everyone else pay the increase) or we have to tax the price of fossil fuels so they are more expensive. Either way, we're paying more for energy which has a massive downstream affect on almost every part of our economy. Even so, that wouldn't be awful if we had some certainty that this investment would lead to energy technology on par with fossil fuels in the next few decades. I haven't seen much evidence of that though. Also, relying on foreign countries to go along with international agreements is a scary strategy. China will probably just copy whatever we design regardless.
Do you factor the costs of an increase in extreme weather events into your analysis?
What should I use? There's limited evidence of a climate change signal in disaster losses so far. Chapter 4 of this report discusses the Changes in Impacts of Climate Extremes.http://www.ipcc-wg2.gov/SREX/images/uploads/SREX-All_FINAL.pdf

Here's one key paragraph:

There is high confidence, based on high agreement and medium evidence, that economic losses from weather- and climate-related disasters have increased (Cutter and Emrich, 2005; Peduzzi et al., 2009, 2011; UNISDR, 2009; Mechler and Kundzewicz, 2010; Swiss Re 2010; Munich Re, 2011). A key question concerns whether trends in such losses, or losses from specific events, can be attributed to climate change. In this context, changes in losses over time need to be controlled for exposure and vulnerability. Most studies of long-term disaster loss records attribute these increases in losses to increasing exposure of people and assets in at-risk areas (Miller et al., 2008; Bouwer, 2011), and to underlying societal trends – demographic, economic, political, and social – that shape vulnerability to impacts (Pielke Jr. et al., 2005; Bouwer et al., 2007). Some authors suggest that a (natural or anthropogenic) climate change signal can be found in the records of disaster losses (e.g., Mills, 2005; Höppe and Grimm, 2009), but their work is in the nature of reviews and commentary rather than empirical research. Attempts have been made to normalize loss records for changes in exposure and wealth. There is medium evidence and high agreement that long-term trends in normalized losses have not been attributed to natural or anthropogenic climate change (Choi and Fisher, 2003; Crompton and McAneney, 2008; Miller et al., 2008; Neumayer and Barthel, 2011). The evidence is medium because of the issues set out toward the end of this section.
 
BTW, this goes back to my original point. If someone can provide a detailed cost/benefit analysis of various methods of forcing green energy on people compared to the status quo, I can be convinced. Vague statements of low confidence estimates 30+ years out aren't extremely moving. If either side have made up their mind here, it's based on some form of faith.

 
'bagger said:
i find it baffling that "pro business" conservatives do not see global warming as an opportunity for the US to globally lead new technology that provides clean and cheap energy.
Of course the lefts idea of Carbon credits and increasing energy costs as high as possible is a great alternative. :rolleyes: I know, lets use food to power our cars, create massive wind farms that slaughter our wildlife and drive people insane, and blend gasoline like an ice cream shop to improve fuel economy 1-2%.

 
BTW, this goes back to my original point. If someone can provide a detailed cost/benefit analysis of various methods of forcing green energy on people compared to the status quo, I can be convinced. Vague statements of low confidence estimates 30+ years out aren't extremely moving. If either side have made up their mind here, it's based on some form of faith.
You're the one making an assertion the cost of transitioning away from fossil fuels will be higher than the negative externalities of continuing on our current tack. I find it telling that you demand detailed evidence for action but make huge assumptions in favor of inaction.
 
BTW, this goes back to my original point. If someone can provide a detailed cost/benefit analysis of various methods of forcing green energy on people compared to the status quo, I can be convinced. Vague statements of low confidence estimates 30+ years out aren't extremely moving. If either side have made up their mind here, it's based on some form of faith.
You're the one making an assertion the cost of transitioning away from fossil fuels will be higher than the negative externalities of continuing on our current tack. I find it telling that you demand detailed evidence for action but make huge assumptions in favor of inaction.
Sorry that I'm a voter with an opinion based on reading many reports and have yet to be convinced. From my point of view, it's on those who wish to implement new policies who hold the burden of proof.
 
BTW, this goes back to my original point. If someone can provide a detailed cost/benefit analysis of various methods of forcing green energy on people compared to the status quo, I can be convinced. Vague statements of low confidence estimates 30+ years out aren't extremely moving. If either side have made up their mind here, it's based on some form of faith.
You're the one making an assertion the cost of transitioning away from fossil fuels will be higher than the negative externalities of continuing on our current tack. I find it telling that you demand detailed evidence for action but make huge assumptions in favor of inaction.
Sorry that I'm a voter with an opinion based on reading many reports and have yet to be convinced. From my point of view, it's on those who wish to implement new policies who hold the burden of proof.
You don't have to apologize. But you describe yourself as being above the fray by saying "If either side have made up their mind here, it's based on some form of faith." The fact is that you're certain it will cost more to address global warming than to ignore it. And you have a clearly dismissive attitude toward green energy. You're not above the fray. You advocate a position. You demand more proof from one side than the other.
 
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Summer’s record heat, drought point to longer-term climate issues

By Peter Whoriskey, Published: August 11

In OTTUMWA, IOWA — Driving by a boat ramp one Saturday morning last month, a local man noticed some white spots on the Des Moines River. He stopped to have a look.

Turns out the spots were fish bellies. The undersides of dead sturgeon formed glistening constellations in the muddy brown water.

Some aquifers are being sucked dry by irrigation and other uses faster than they can be replenished by rain, according to a new study.

In all, about 58,000 dead fish were along a 42-mile stretch, according to state officials, and the cause of death appeared to be heat. Biologists measured the water at 97 degrees in multiple spots.

“I’ve never seen anything quite like it,” said Justin Pedretti, who owns a farm near the boat ramp in Bonaparte, Iowa, and first reported the fish kill.

Under the most wide-reaching drought since 1956, and torched by the hottest July on record dating from 1895, the United States has been under the kind of weather stress that climatologists say will be more common if the long-standing trend toward higher U.S. temperatures continues. Most immediately affected are the nation’s water sources and the people and crops that rely on them.

The flow of the Mississippi River has slowed — at times rivaling 40-year lows — allowing saltwater from the Gulf of Mexico to seep far up the river channel, threatening community water supplies at the river mouth. Likewise, across the nation’s middle, many communities have invoked water restrictions to protect shrinking supplies. The lack of rain has sizzled the nation’s corn crop, too, with agriculture officials reporting last week that the overall yield is expected to drop 16 percent from last year.

Scott Lakin, owner of a family farm in Indiana, was already dealing with the drought harming his corn crop. But his wife recently called with the discovery that the weather woes were striking much closer to home.

“I heard the washing machine making sounds — it wasn’t filling,” Marcy Lakin said. “Then I checked the faucets and couldn’t get even a drip.”

The well was dry. The water table in the area had sunk to new lows, and like other homeowners in Parr, Ind., they were without water. When they sought out a well-driller to try to find water, they found that drillers across the state were booked for a week.

Six of 35 observation wells in the state have hit historic lows, said Mark Basch, chief of the state water rights department.

The Lakins, with two kids, have gone almost two weeks without water.

“I think you could say it’s been a trying summer,” she said. “Everybody was looking for water.”

Inching up by degrees

In 1895, the first year of such records for the nation, the average July temperature in the contiguous states was 72.1 degrees.

Since then, average temperatures have been rising, if slowly, according to U.S. records, climbing at the rate of 1.24 degrees per century.

This year, average temperatures spiked to 77.6 — even above the long-term trends, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration reported last week.

At the same time that temperatures have spiked, setting records in places as far-flung as Lansing, Mich., and Greenville, S.C., the country has been hit with a spreading drought. In early August, 62 percent of the contiguous United States was under moderate to exceptional drought, according to the U.S. Drought Monitor.
 
... Once more people accept that AGW is real and we get a better idea of the future magnitude, the next question is what to do about it? Unfortunately for greens, that starts to get away from a purely scientific question to ones of economics and sociology.
While there is some truth to the adage that you don't want to be sacrificed on the bleeding edge of new technology, what are the economic consequences of being left behind as the rest of the world develops green energy?
I'd be curious what the answer is. Can't say I know enough of the details of every possible green energy source, their likelihood of becoming cost competitive any time soon, how aggressive are European governments going to be in imposing CO2 limits, how specialized is the technology or can we just basically copy it, and hundreds of other issues.My opinion has been that we should skip this green energy phase and focus on developing a fusion power plant that can produce more energy than is put in. It's the only scientifically possible option we know of that will be able to satisfy our power requirements for the long term future. If we could do that in a decade or two most of those green energy developments would turn out to be worthless.
this is like ford saying sure i could build a car to replace the horse and buggy but i am going to forego that and see if i can build personal 'hovercrafts instead since those will make cars worthless.with that mentality we would all still be in horse and buggies.
Is someone ready to do what you claim is possible? You should go read the "what if buildings are found on mars" thread.
 
BTW, this goes back to my original point. If someone can provide a detailed cost/benefit analysis of various methods of forcing green energy on people compared to the status quo, I can be convinced. Vague statements of low confidence estimates 30+ years out aren't extremely moving. If either side have made up their mind here, it's based on some form of faith.
You're the one making an assertion the cost of transitioning away from fossil fuels will be higher than the negative externalities of continuing on our current tack. I find it telling that you demand detailed evidence for action but make huge assumptions in favor of inaction.
Sorry that I'm a voter with an opinion based on reading many reports and have yet to be convinced. From my point of view, it's on those who wish to implement new policies who hold the burden of proof.
You don't have to apologize. But you describe yourself as being above the fray by saying "If either side have made up their mind here, it's based on some form of faith." The fact is that you're certain it will cost more to address global warming than to ignore it. And you have a clearly dismissive attitude toward green energy. You're not above the fray. You advocate a position. You demand more proof from one side than the other.
In some bizarre intellectually pure world, you might have the right idea....burden of proof at equivalent levels on both sides. Then again, maybe not....suppose I come up with a compelling alternative to democracy. Is there equal burden of proof on me (prove my alternative) and the US government (prove that democracy is superior)? Does that make sense?
 
"I think, unfortunately, this is an example that points more to the worst-case scenario side of things," says Professor Michael E. Mann, of Penn State University, who was a lead author of a major UN report in 2001 on climate change.

"There are a number of areas where in fact climate change seems to be proceeding faster and with a greater magnitude than what the models predicted."

"The sea ice decline is perhaps the most profound of those cautionary tales because the models have basically predicted that we shouldn't see what we're seeing now for several decades," adds Mann.
If it doesn't happen by the end of 2012, it's not going to happen.
 

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