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The Diminished Importance of Left Tackle (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter flysack
- Start date
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
later in that article:
"dimininished importance" doesn't mean unimportant, especially in the run game. Good LT's are still important. But it appears that the rules changes that have made this a pass happy league mean positions that were traditionally undervalued such as guard and center are now much more important than they were. People scoffed at the money the Bucs threw at Carl Nicks, saying he was given "left tackle" money. In the end, they may be proven right in splurging.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Here are the best LTs in the league (according to ESPN.com) with their team's record in parenthesis...
1. Joe Thomas (4-12)
2. Jake Long (6-10)
3. Ryan Clady (8-8)
4. Jordan Gross (6-10)
5. D'Brickashaw Ferguson (8-8)
6. Michael Roos (9-7)
7. Jason Peters (8-8)
8. Marcus McNeil (8-8)
9. Donald Penn (4-12)
10. Matt Light (13-3)
1. Joe Thomas (4-12)
2. Jake Long (6-10)
3. Ryan Clady (8-8)
4. Jordan Gross (6-10)
5. D'Brickashaw Ferguson (8-8)
6. Michael Roos (9-7)
7. Jason Peters (8-8)
8. Marcus McNeil (8-8)
9. Donald Penn (4-12)
10. Matt Light (13-3)
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I was just putting that together actually. Should be up in a couple of mins..
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
This is interesting.
I've noticed that the top notch OLTs haven't been part of Super Bowl winning teams yet the article jumps to the conclusion that top notch OLTs importance is diminished and it uses the Pats as an example to show they emphasize protection from the inside, the Pats do and that is because of Tom Brady and Wes Welker with recent additions of top-notch TEs who excel in the short passing game and also control the middle of the field.
Brady's weak spot has always been pressure up inside because he has never been a scrambler and he is fantastic sliding up to step into throws. He needs clean passing lanes inside or he's forced to scramble outside of the pocket and that is not his balywick.
The receiving corps in New England is built on quick throws and controlling the middle of the field so once again that compliments the anti-OLT argument but any team who picks later in the draft isn't in position to get a premium OLT. Those teams picking at the top of the draft tend to be bad, i.e., they lack a top-notch QB but its hard to land a top-notch QB AND it is also very difficult to land a top-notch OLT simply due to the fact that their are very few of them.
Lets go back to New England.
Bilechick took over in 2000.
In his first draft from 2000 he took two OTs with his first three picks.
2 46 Adrian Klemm T Hawaii
4 127 Greg Robinson-Randall T Michigan State
He also found this guy in the sixth round -- 6 199 Tom Brady QB Michigan
So in his very first draft with the Pats Billicheck got his franchise QB and devoted two of his top three picks to the OT position.
Next year, 2001, he once again drafted two OTs with two of this four top picks:
2 48 Matt Light T Purdue
4 96 Kenyatta Jones T South Florida
So Bilechick lucked out and landed a Hall of Fame QB in the sixth round of his very first draft while he stock piled OTs. They didn't take Mankiss till 2005, a half decade after landing Brady. Last year they took Nate Soldier in the first round. Mankiss is the only high interior O-Lineman that Bill has selected in over a decade as head coach of the Pats.
The article talks of using overloads to one-side to create pressure. Yes, that is basically a blitz type of package where you create pressure by suprise rather than sheer pass rush talent, you simply put too many guys to one side so someone will break free. That works but if you have a great edge rusher like a Dwight Freeny or a DeMarcus Ware or an Elvis Dumervill and can create the same type of pressue without hanging out your DBs then that is prefferable but top-notch edge pass rushers are also very hard to come by.
If top-notch OTs have decreased in importance then it would make sense to also argue that the importance of edge pass rushers have decreased in importance but we just saw Bilechick take a pass rusher with his top pick and he even moved up to get him: 1 21 Chandler Jones DE Syracuse. He didn't move up for an interior O-Lineman.
The points about quick passing games are valid and the arguments about the rule changes with DB contact with WRs. Also how defenses have adapted to the new rules. I think the conclusion skips over the fact that if you have a franchise QB already in place its hard to then land the stud OLT. And if you land the stud OLT its tough to find a franchise QB.
The Rams landed Sam Bradford but lacked protection and he got the snot kicked out of him last year. The Lions used their first round pick on OT Gosder Cherilus the year before drafting Matt Stafford but he wasn't a top-notch OT and Stafford suffered thru injuries his first two seasons. This year they took another OT in the first round: 1 23 Riley Reiff T Iowa.
I think their are more moving pieces with the, QB, OT, and edge pass rusher, triangle than the article devles into but it is very intersting.
Thanks for sharing.
I've noticed that the top notch OLTs haven't been part of Super Bowl winning teams yet the article jumps to the conclusion that top notch OLTs importance is diminished and it uses the Pats as an example to show they emphasize protection from the inside, the Pats do and that is because of Tom Brady and Wes Welker with recent additions of top-notch TEs who excel in the short passing game and also control the middle of the field.
Brady's weak spot has always been pressure up inside because he has never been a scrambler and he is fantastic sliding up to step into throws. He needs clean passing lanes inside or he's forced to scramble outside of the pocket and that is not his balywick.
The receiving corps in New England is built on quick throws and controlling the middle of the field so once again that compliments the anti-OLT argument but any team who picks later in the draft isn't in position to get a premium OLT. Those teams picking at the top of the draft tend to be bad, i.e., they lack a top-notch QB but its hard to land a top-notch QB AND it is also very difficult to land a top-notch OLT simply due to the fact that their are very few of them.
Lets go back to New England.
Bilechick took over in 2000.
In his first draft from 2000 he took two OTs with his first three picks.
2 46 Adrian Klemm T Hawaii
4 127 Greg Robinson-Randall T Michigan State
He also found this guy in the sixth round -- 6 199 Tom Brady QB Michigan
So in his very first draft with the Pats Billicheck got his franchise QB and devoted two of his top three picks to the OT position.
Next year, 2001, he once again drafted two OTs with two of this four top picks:
2 48 Matt Light T Purdue
4 96 Kenyatta Jones T South Florida
So Bilechick lucked out and landed a Hall of Fame QB in the sixth round of his very first draft while he stock piled OTs. They didn't take Mankiss till 2005, a half decade after landing Brady. Last year they took Nate Soldier in the first round. Mankiss is the only high interior O-Lineman that Bill has selected in over a decade as head coach of the Pats.
The article talks of using overloads to one-side to create pressure. Yes, that is basically a blitz type of package where you create pressure by suprise rather than sheer pass rush talent, you simply put too many guys to one side so someone will break free. That works but if you have a great edge rusher like a Dwight Freeny or a DeMarcus Ware or an Elvis Dumervill and can create the same type of pressue without hanging out your DBs then that is prefferable but top-notch edge pass rushers are also very hard to come by.
If top-notch OTs have decreased in importance then it would make sense to also argue that the importance of edge pass rushers have decreased in importance but we just saw Bilechick take a pass rusher with his top pick and he even moved up to get him: 1 21 Chandler Jones DE Syracuse. He didn't move up for an interior O-Lineman.
The points about quick passing games are valid and the arguments about the rule changes with DB contact with WRs. Also how defenses have adapted to the new rules. I think the conclusion skips over the fact that if you have a franchise QB already in place its hard to then land the stud OLT. And if you land the stud OLT its tough to find a franchise QB.
The Rams landed Sam Bradford but lacked protection and he got the snot kicked out of him last year. The Lions used their first round pick on OT Gosder Cherilus the year before drafting Matt Stafford but he wasn't a top-notch OT and Stafford suffered thru injuries his first two seasons. This year they took another OT in the first round: 1 23 Riley Reiff T Iowa.
I think their are more moving pieces with the, QB, OT, and edge pass rusher, triangle than the article devles into but it is very intersting.
Thanks for sharing.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Here are the combined records of teams with a top 5 player at each position in 2011. I didn't get to the defense..
QB: 61-19
RB: 39-41
WR: 47-33
TE: 62-18
LT: 32-48
G: 58-22
C: 38-42
*Top 5 is pretty subjective. I couldn't find a good comprehensive list. ESPN.com's power rankings didn't have guards or centers so I had to search around a bit for those. Here are the folks I used for them...
Sitton
Mankins
Nicks
Dielman
Evans
Snee
Sullivan
Saturday
Wells
Mangold
Myers
QB: 61-19
RB: 39-41
WR: 47-33
TE: 62-18
LT: 32-48
G: 58-22
C: 38-42
*Top 5 is pretty subjective. I couldn't find a good comprehensive list. ESPN.com's power rankings didn't have guards or centers so I had to search around a bit for those. Here are the folks I used for them...
Sitton
Mankins
Nicks
Dielman
Evans
Snee
Sullivan
Saturday
Wells
Mangold
Myers
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benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
Wow very interesting to see
RUSF18
Footballguy
I'd be interested in seeing the numbers if you expanded it further to the top 10 at each position.
why would Tom Brady try to convince Matt Light not to retire if left tackle isn't important?
the stats about highly drafted left tackles and super bowls could be extrapolated across the entire offensive line.
If you look at the rankings of the best offensive lines in the league, and you look at the best offenses in the league, it's not the same list.
all that proves to me is that a franchise passer like Aaron Rodgers or Matt Stafford doesn't need a super OL to succeed.
from my perspective LT is still the most important position on the OL, because of the one on one responsibilities and the type of matchups they face. Every week it's another stud. Are we really gonna sit here and pretend guard is a more important position?
the stats about highly drafted left tackles and super bowls could be extrapolated across the entire offensive line.
If you look at the rankings of the best offensive lines in the league, and you look at the best offenses in the league, it's not the same list.
all that proves to me is that a franchise passer like Aaron Rodgers or Matt Stafford doesn't need a super OL to succeed.
from my perspective LT is still the most important position on the OL, because of the one on one responsibilities and the type of matchups they face. Every week it's another stud. Are we really gonna sit here and pretend guard is a more important position?
I think it would get watered down a bit. You'd literally have 1/3 of the league's starters represented in some cases.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Who are your top 5 tackles? I see you have Jason Peters listed at 7. Most pundits consider him to be the best LT in the game, certainly top 5.Also, because players are always in flux, you would be better off doing it by year. Say the top 5 for 2011, the top 5 for 2010 instead of the top 5 and going back 5 years.
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cstu
Footballguy
A couple things that I thought about this:- Normally only bad teams are able to pick the top LT's in the draft.
- Guards usually don't go until the end of the 1st at the earliest. For example, the best OG (Decastro) went to the already good Steelers.
jason peters with his age and injury, it would surprise me if he ever recaptures his "best OL in the league" form. Remember he's 30 this year and he tore the same tendon 2x in the same spring. That's not good.
Pipes
Footballguy
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Buffalo gave up the fewest sacks in the league last year, and by many measures, was the best pass blocking OL in the league in 2011. And their strength was certainly not their LT or RT. LG and C were their 2 best positions on the OL. So they would be a good example for this hypothesis.
Warrior
Footballguy
Did you watch a single one of their games last season? Peters was a beast...possibly the best in the NFL. Tendon injuries and age didn't slow him down last season and we're not ranking the most important positions 5 years from now, we're doing it based on last season's records.
Warrior
Footballguy
right now, today, Jason Peters blew out his achilles tendon. Twice in the same offseason. if you want to rate this player as the best in the league, be my guest.
RUSF18
Footballguy
Understand, but my point is more to see what effect, if any, it may have if you shuffle those guys around in the top 10 order a bit. It's already a subjective ranking, and you're applying a subjective cut off point. If, for argument's sake, ESPN's #3 - 5 LTs are ranked #5, 7, and 9 on CBS' list, that would likely paint a very different picture when it comes to those records. And it doesn't take a whole lot of debating for two people to think that one LT is the 4th best in the game and another to think the same guy is the 7th.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Buffalo may have been one of the best pass protecting teams in the league but they didn't face many good edge pass rushers.Not one of the Buffalo O-Linemen made the Pro Bowl last year and only two front-seven defenders qualified from the AFCE, both New England palyers, NT Vince Wilfork who had less than four sacks and DE Andre Carter who had ten sacks but eight of those came in three games so he only had two sacks in the other 13 games. Point is the AFCE isn't loaded with top notch pass rushers and I couldn't think of any top notch edge pass rushers from the AFCE so the OLTs in the AFCE don't have to square off against top quality edge pass rushers.Not a shot at Buffalo or any OLTs from the AFCE but that was the first thing I thought of, basically that they don't have a lot of quality edge passers in that division so overall that division wouldn't value the position as much as say a team in the NFCE or the AFCW or AFCN where guys like, Tamba Hali, DeMarcus Ware, James Harrison, Von Miller, Elvis Dumervill, Terrell Suggs, etc et el reside.I think the direct level of competition within divisin has to be taken into account and that doesn't even begin to address the QBs behind the O-Lines and their offensive style of play. Like I said, many moving parts but it is an interesting discussion.'GroveDiesel said:
texasbirdfan
Footballguy
There is no better example of the rush up the middle than the 2011 Atlanta Falcons when they let right guard Harvey Dahl walk in free agency. Matt Ryan was up to his ears on up the middle defensive attacks and the sacks and hurries increased significantly. Dahl originally labeled a nasty road grader was sorely missed for pass blocking and the position was addressed by the first 2 picks of the 2012 draft
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
It's an interesting thread but a couple of things...- It would seem to me that the value of the LT itself isn't as important the combination of the LT and the QB he was protecting. Joe Thomas is the perfect example. If the guy you are protecting can't do his job then it doesn't really matter how much time you afford that QB. If you have a talented but fragile Stafford back there I'd pay BIG $ for a top left tackle if I'm an owner. Suddenly Thomas might be the second most important player on the team after the fragile franchise QB.'FreeBaGeL said:
- Marcus McNeil not only didn't play much of the season but was flatly outplayed by a FA off the street that had almost no time to practice with the team. I've been saying for years now that his value is smoke an mirrors and have to wonder how much LT perceived performance is based on reputation rather than actual ability.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
You do realize that the Bills played against the AFC West and NFC East last year, right? So they went against Hali, Von Miller, Ware, JPP, Babin, etc. They actually had one of the toughest schedules against top pass rushers in the league.So, yeah. And can we please stop ranking offensive lines by the individual awards players receive? It's just stupid.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Yeah, that's just a weird ranking for McNeil. The guy can't even get a contract yet and is a free agent without a team. OL rankings, both for individuals and units seem to always be a year or two behind both in guys on the way up and the way down.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
When talking about the specific O-Line position of OLT it is relevant to talk about individual achievement of the OLTs and the competition they face. Also playing the outside of the division means one potential game in four years against each against teams like, DEN, KC, NYG, or DAL, not two each year where you get a much better read on a top notch guy that your OLT mans up against.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
No, the individual awards really don't matter. That's part of the point of the article. And yeah, Buffalo didn't have to play all those teams twice, but I challenge you to find a team that had more games against top pass rushers last year. There aren't many.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The point of the article was to try and make the case that the OLT has diminished and focused on New England who had Matt Light for all of their Super Bowl victories so he probably played a role on those teams. If Buffalo had quality O-Linemen they were not recognized by their peers or Pro Bowl voting coaches or by the fans vote.
I think the discussion is interesting for reasons other than my team's O-Line is better than yours which is pretty lame wouldn't you say?
All this talk about how a centralized pass rush affects the offense, but no discussion about the defense.
Has anyone noticed Vince Wilfork, big, 2-gapping, run-stuffing Vince Wilfork, is a 3-down player for the Patriots? They have no decent edge rushers, and have ignored the position for some time (much to the chagrin of fans--although it looks like Chandler Jones might be the man now), and yet watching Wilfork shove Matt Birk into the face of Joe Flacco every Ravens' passing down in the AFCC last year, you see firsthand what this article is talking about.
That might be the new money position on defense; the beast defensive tackle, who can jam gaps on run downs and crush the pocket on passing downs.
Has anyone noticed Vince Wilfork, big, 2-gapping, run-stuffing Vince Wilfork, is a 3-down player for the Patriots? They have no decent edge rushers, and have ignored the position for some time (much to the chagrin of fans--although it looks like Chandler Jones might be the man now), and yet watching Wilfork shove Matt Birk into the face of Joe Flacco every Ravens' passing down in the AFCC last year, you see firsthand what this article is talking about.
That might be the new money position on defense; the beast defensive tackle, who can jam gaps on run downs and crush the pocket on passing downs.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Actually, the article discussed multiple teams. And my argument has nothing to do with my team versus your team. Yes, my favorite team is Buffalo, but in this case it simply means I know the statistics about my team and they happen to be relevant to this discussion.
For instance, we both agree that Buffalo did not have outstanding OTs. That would be relevant to this discussion.
We also agree that Buffalo gave up the fewest sacks in the league last year, right? (23 to be exact).
Where we seem to disagree is whether or not that low sack number is meaningful. You indicated that it wasn't because you said they didn't face any good pass rushers/pass rushing teams. I pointed out that they actually faced almost every single team/pass rusher you listed as being top pass rushers.
To add numbers to that, there were 1188 sacks last year for a mean average of 37 sacks per team. Buffalo's opponents averaged 39 sacks last year. Buffalo gave up just 23. That's a pretty stark difference compared to the expected mean sack numbers for the league or 39 for their opponents. In fact, the Bucs were dead last in the league with just 23 sacks. So essentially, the Bills held their cumulative sack rate equivalent to the dead last team in the league in getting to the QB.
Now clearly there were several factors that played a part in that. A big one was Buffalo's quick release spread offense. Another one is that Andy Levitre and Eric Wood are actually very good interior players.
I think they're a perfect example of the truth behind this article and idea and I don't think that your criticism of their schedule holds mu h water under examination.
As we see more and more of the spread offense, I think we'll see this idea taking hold more. Guards and Centers are going to start getting more money and get drafted higher while LTs will fall a bit.
I also think we'll see the spread offense and quick passes become even MORE popular. With guys like Von Miller, Babin, Orakpo, Ware, etc, tearing QBs apart on the outside edge, you'll see more teams neutralizing those guys through a quick strike offense rather than trying to stop them with a stud LT.
If you saw what the Giants did to Brady in the Super Bowl, it wasn't that they beat Brady on the outside, they repeatedly blew up the pocket up the middle. That's where the next chess match is.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
If NFL people thought this was true they wouldn't be taking LOT's as high as they are and G's would have more value. Interesting opinion piece by the writer but it is just an example of manipulating data. You can find a stat to make the case for about anything.
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The article is about the diminished importance of the OLT and they did not use weak examples to make their case, they did use New England who has had Matt Light who is recognized as one of the better OLTs in the league. They did not focus on Light for the obvious reason it would not help their case so they focused on the achilles heel of Tom Brady which has always been pressure up the middle. The G-Men exploited that weakness in two SB victories and they go into detail that if a defense can prevent Tom Brady from getting that step-up into his throws that he's a different QB. Correct.Tom Brady's weakness is not a discussion about the importance of the OLT position. It is peripheral but if the article is to show how pressure up the middle mitigates the importance of the OLT position they did not make a direct case. I find the discussion interesting because their is something there but if you are an NFL GM you will take a stud OLT at the top of the draft if you have a need because this article did not note the importance of top-notch edge pass rushers like a Dwight Freeny or Robert Mathis or Jared Allen and how an offense has to game plan so they don't get eaten up on passing downs.A quality DT who can play all three downs and create pressure up the middle is extremely valuable, no one has argued against how difficult it is to find one of those guys and when someone like a Suh comes around they get taken high in the draft.You can find solid starting quality OGs and even top notch centers later in the draft. Dave DeCastro was considered one of the best interior O-Linemen in the last few years and he fell to the bottom of the first round with many so-so pass rushers taken ahead of him. This draft was seen as weak for pass rushers yet a guy like Bruce Irvin was the first DE taken 9 slots ahead of DeCastro whereas OLT Matt Kalil was taken 11 slots ahead of Irvin. If the theory of diminished importance of the OLT position were truely being taken to heart by the NFL brass this reality would be reflected in their actions so it is difficult to explain away the most recent NFL draft.Its interesting though and I'm not sure how to prove the idea of decreased importance of the OLT. I don't think working backwards from W/L record is the most logical way because its a chicken-egg argument.Arguing low sack numbers by one team is also very difficult as a proof unless Buffalo actually did draft interior O-Linemen high and eschewed the OLT position in the draft. Also I still do not see a lot of top notch edge pass rushes from the AFCE. If I were an NFL GM and had no quality edge pass rushers within my division I would tend to not prioritize the OLT position as much yet if I had multiple games against, T-Suggs, Dwight Freeny, Von Miller, Jared Allen, DeMarcus Ware, etc, I would prioritize my OLT position otherwise I'd be conceeding one of the most important matchups on the field IMHO.The article is interesting because it does have a point but the conclusion it draws probably isn't as valid as the solid point about the value of finding pressure up the middle.
GregR
Footballguy
If I wanted to quickly identify the teams who were the best in pass protection I'd check total drop backs (pass attempts + sacks) divided by sacks. That way a team who is sacked 20 times in 400 drop backs is correctly viewed the same as a team who is sacked 30 times in 600 drop backs since they are getting sacked at the same rate.
Rank Team Att/Sack1 New Orleans Saints 28.62 Buffalo Bills 26.13 Tennessee Titans 25.34 Atlanta Falcons 23.85 Cincinnati Bengals 22.46 New York Giants 22.07 Oakland Raiders 22.08 San Diego Chargers 20.49 New England Patriots 20.110 Detroit Lions 19.511 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 19.412 Philadelphia Eagles 18.313 Baltimore Ravens 17.514 Indianapolis Colts 16.315 Carolina Panthers 15.816 Kansas City Chiefs 15.717 Cleveland Browns 15.618 Dallas Cowboys 15.619 Washington Redskins 15.420 Houston Texans 15.221 New York Jets 14.722 Green Bay Packers 14.523 Pittsburgh Steelers 13.824 Jacksonville Jaguars 11.725 Minnesota Vikings 11.426 San Francisco 49ers 11.327 Denver Broncos 11.228 Arizona Cardinals 11.229 Seattle Seahawks 11.230 St. Louis Rams 11.031 Chicago Bears 10.732 Miami Dolphins 10.0
So yes, the Bills would definitely be an example of a team who succeeded in not getting sacked, second best in the league.
Rank Team Att/Sack1 New Orleans Saints 28.62 Buffalo Bills 26.13 Tennessee Titans 25.34 Atlanta Falcons 23.85 Cincinnati Bengals 22.46 New York Giants 22.07 Oakland Raiders 22.08 San Diego Chargers 20.49 New England Patriots 20.110 Detroit Lions 19.511 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 19.412 Philadelphia Eagles 18.313 Baltimore Ravens 17.514 Indianapolis Colts 16.315 Carolina Panthers 15.816 Kansas City Chiefs 15.717 Cleveland Browns 15.618 Dallas Cowboys 15.619 Washington Redskins 15.420 Houston Texans 15.221 New York Jets 14.722 Green Bay Packers 14.523 Pittsburgh Steelers 13.824 Jacksonville Jaguars 11.725 Minnesota Vikings 11.426 San Francisco 49ers 11.327 Denver Broncos 11.228 Arizona Cardinals 11.229 Seattle Seahawks 11.230 St. Louis Rams 11.031 Chicago Bears 10.732 Miami Dolphins 10.0
So yes, the Bills would definitely be an example of a team who succeeded in not getting sacked, second best in the league.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
OK, good! Now we are taking this to the next level.Alright, now if we could somehow break out edge pressure and sacks from interior pressure and sacks THEN we'd have more pieces of the puzzle.Then it would be great to judge the quality of the O-Line and of the direct competition. Obviously a great match-up of say Joe Thomas VS Terrell Suggs would have more value than second or third rate matchups and then how to grade an individual matchup of top notch players would be the next follow-up. See you can't just take stats and say A caused B if their are many other factors.So I do feel looking at the actions of the decision makers in the NFL reflects in how they draft. The draft shows clearly how they value certain postitions. Their is only one starting QB but two starting OTs and two starting DE's and OLBs and three interior O-Linemen but QBs get taken more often than other positions. It is obvious the NFL values the QB moreso than any other position. Pass rushers and pass protectors tend to be the next highest drafted positions so it is obvious the league values those positions moreso than other positions or they would be selected higher.I find this the most interesting topic because it isn't so cut and dried. I really do think their is sommething of strategic value but a dominating stud interior D-Lineman can be double or triple teamed with inferior quality interior O-Linemen. An NFL team doesn't need to spend valuable high draft picks to find interior O-Linemen. It doesn't mean their job isn't as important or of more importance on certain key plays in a game its a measure of supply/demand. The raw sack stats are excellent but if the teams at the top had one weak area in pass protection that could be isolated like OLT or ORT where the majority of their sacks took place then the overall raw numbers wouldn't reflect where the pressure came fromm. If the sacks were evenly distributed accross the O-Line with no discernable weakness then the entire O-Line's level of play would be accurately reflected in the sats so for me the raw numbers are great but I think they are a great place to look deeper into where they gave up those sacks.Good information and very interesting and I'm sure others will see things like how those numbers compare with W/L records etc.
Runningman
Footballguy
Agree completely with this. Not just QBs but skilled players in general make up for or don't take advantage of the situations the O-line puts them in. Success is more likely for an offense if the QB isn't overly worried about being blind sided by a defensive end.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
LarryAllen'sJockstrap
Footballguy
I think this is just the numbers catching up with the way defenses have changed in the last 10 years. A decade ago, the majority of teams ran a base 4-3 where the DE who lined up over the blind-side OT was expected to be your best pass-rusher. Nowadays, teams are running the 3-4 and other hybrid base D schemes where the team's premier pass rusher lines up on either side as LB, and sometimes even come up the middle. Just look at what Houston did with Mario Williams (6-6, 283) moving to LB. Bringing players like that (uncovered) from different spots lets them get free to make more bug plays. In turn, the offensive strategy of drafting a moster LT and plugging him into your lineup to nuetralize the other team's best rusher isn't a reality like it used to be.
GregR
Footballguy
I think it's hard to decouple the tackle from the QB as well. For example, very few of the tackles in that ESPN list rated highly in ProFootballFocus's ratings based on actual performance, like percentage of pressures allowed. Only Thomas and Peters made the top 15 and only two more, Roos and Light were in the top 20.That list doesn't include penalties given up either. Instead I tried to use PFF's top 101 players (all positions) based on actual play. The offensive tackles who made the list, and their team records are: Jason Peters (8-8)Tyron Smith (8-8)Duane Brown (10-6)Joe Thomas (4-12)Bryan Bulaga (15-1)Andrew Whitworth (9-7)Now obviously how quickly the QB gets rid of the ball will play a role. A tackle who has to protect a QB for 5 seconds on average will give up more pressures and penalties than one whose QB gets rid of the ball in 4 seconds. We'd want a bigger sample size but it's look like effective tackle play and winning record aren't completely detached like the ESPN list suggests.Let's do it again based on the top tackles based just on rate at which pressures are given up, which doesn't include penalties but also doesn't factor in run blocking like the above list does. I'm going to limit it to players with 400+ pass protects as a guy with only, say, 200 pass protects probably wasn't in a lot of those games in the team's record. As far as impact, that removes tackles from the Rams, Skins, Bills and Pats.Joe Thomas 4-12Andrew Whitworth 9-7David Stewart 9-7Jason Peters 8-8Tyson Clabo 10-6Branden Albert 7-9Bryan Bulaga 15-1Tony Pashos 4-12Duane Brown 10-6Marcus Gilbert 12-4Tyron Smith 8-8Andre Smith Jr. 9-7Erik Pears 6-10Michael Roos 9-7Zach Strief 13-3Matt Light 13-3That's a 146-110 record for teams who had tackles who protected the QB long enough for him to get the ball off.'FreeBaGeL said:
GregR
Footballguy
If someone has time to do the equivalent list for the top guards and centers based on pass block efficiency (again, penalties excluded which is unfortunate), PFF link is http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/21/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-guards-and-centers/
Edit to add: I wish they posted the whole data set instead of just the top and bottom. Ah well, probably need the subscription to get at it.
Edit to add: I wish they posted the whole data set instead of just the top and bottom. Ah well, probably need the subscription to get at it.
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David Yudkin
Footballguy
I think that expectations for blue chip tackles are always higher than they should be. Most of the time, it will be a team with other issues and a poor record that will take the true studs at tackle.
Since 1980, there were 38 tackles taken in the Top 10 in the draft. Three of them went on to win the Super Bowl as a mainstay for their teams (Orlando Pace, Jonathan Ogden, and Jimbo Covert). Two others won a ring as backups in their final season in the NFL when they were in their 30s: Lomas Brown and Ken Ruettgers.
Having a true stud at LT may not be quite as imperative in the past, but no matter how you slice it it will take aa entire team of players to win the championship. The information in the article seems to only confirm what we already knew: bad teams have been the ones that most recently have been drafting tackles early on and that alone did not serve to turnaround a franchise.
Since 1980, there were 38 tackles taken in the Top 10 in the draft. Three of them went on to win the Super Bowl as a mainstay for their teams (Orlando Pace, Jonathan Ogden, and Jimbo Covert). Two others won a ring as backups in their final season in the NFL when they were in their 30s: Lomas Brown and Ken Ruettgers.
Having a true stud at LT may not be quite as imperative in the past, but no matter how you slice it it will take aa entire team of players to win the championship. The information in the article seems to only confirm what we already knew: bad teams have been the ones that most recently have been drafting tackles early on and that alone did not serve to turnaround a franchise.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
It might be said that expectations for any position drafted in the top-ten are higher than those taken later in the draft.Using the same years of 1980 to present day it was easier to look at the interior O-Linemen taken.
Here's that list:
1982
8. OG Mike Munchak Oilers
1983
9, OG Bruce Matthews Oilers
(Moved to OT)
1984
3. OG Gary Zimmerman Giants
(Moved to OLT)
1986
9, OG John Rienstra Steelers
(side note: My brother went out with his sister in college. John unfortunately had some issues. )
1997
10. OG Chris Naeole Saints
Of the five interior O-Linemen taken in the top ten (all OGs no Cs) I know two of them moved to OT and I think that Munchak was also moved outside and that the plan was to use Rienstra outside but I don't that one took.
Zim was on at least one SB winnning tam with Denver but he was playing OLT. I don't think Naeole made it to the Saints SB championship team.
Not as much of a sample size to dictate importance of the OG position but just seeing that only five interior O-Linemen were selected in the top ten and none have been taken in the top ten in the last 15 years shows the NFL does not see the need to select interior O-Linemen high in the draft.
Or if you like reverse the logic to say if the NFL prioritized interior O-Line positions that would be reflected in the data but the data shows just the opposite.
Traditionally, a team's best past rusher would be its right defensive end (or, in a 3-4, its right outside linebacker). It was important to have a good pass-blocking left tackle because otherwise, you'd either get your quarterback killed, or more likely, you'd hamstring your offense by keeping an extra TE or RB in to block. You'd effectively be playing with one less player on offense since it'd take two players to handle Reggie White or Bruce Smith — unless you had Jon Ogden.Defenses have evolved. No longer does the best pass-rusher always line up over the left tackle. It's still helpful to have a good pass-blocking left tackle, because if you don't, the other team's best rusher will line up there. But as defenses have become more creative and flexible, offensive lines have had to become more well-rounded. It's the strength of the whole unit that matters more now, and not as much emphasis is on the left tackle as an individual component.
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SWC
Bromigo
if left tackles do not do anything then i see a perfect opportunity to line up very speedy guys at the position and report them as eligible every time and use them for total fake out trick plays like the qb wears an old school football arm brace that is made out of brown leather and the qb drops back and takes off his arm brace and holds it like it is a football up by his ear like he is going to throw a pass meanwhile the center direct snaps to the left tackle who does a fake out block while everyone is looking at the qb with the galloping ghost era arm brace by his ear and then the left tackle runs 109 yards for the longest left tackle rush for td in a play involving a fake out using an antique football pad relic and that is the just the beginning brohans the possibilities are endless so tell your grandma she is a brohan and take it to the bank that this marks the beginning of a new fake out magic show era in the nfl
That is quite a sentence.
GregR
Footballguy
It's his schtick.
Synesthesia
Footballguy
I just wanted to present a list of every starting LT in the league (based on the most recent FBGs depth charts), sorted by draft position. I'll leave the commentary to a minimum and let you all consider what, if anything, this means for the discussion at hand.
Top 10- Bryant McKinney, Levi brown, Jordan Gross, Joe Thomas, Tyron Smith, Eugene Monroe, Matt Kalil, Jake Long, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Russell Okung, Trent Williams
1st round- Sam Baker, Ryan Clady, Dwayne Brown, Riley Reiff, Anthony Castonzo, Branden Albert, Nate Solder, Joe Staley
2nd round- Cordy Glenn, Andrew Whitworth, Will Beatty, Rodger Saffold, Marcus Gilbert, Michael Roos
Other- Jared Veldheer (3rd), Jermon Bushrod (4th), Marshall Newhouse (5th), Jared Gaither (5th), Demetress Bell (7th), J'Marcus Webb (7th), Donald Penn (UFA)
A third of NFL starters were top 10 picks. 19 of 32 were first rounders. 25 of 32 were taken in the 2nd or earlier. Amazingly, only one player in the NFL went from undrafted free agent to NFL starter. Are there any other positions in the league with such impeccable pedigree?
Edit to add: Forgot that Marcus McNeill (2nd round) was still on the street, too.
Top 10- Bryant McKinney, Levi brown, Jordan Gross, Joe Thomas, Tyron Smith, Eugene Monroe, Matt Kalil, Jake Long, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Russell Okung, Trent Williams
1st round- Sam Baker, Ryan Clady, Dwayne Brown, Riley Reiff, Anthony Castonzo, Branden Albert, Nate Solder, Joe Staley
2nd round- Cordy Glenn, Andrew Whitworth, Will Beatty, Rodger Saffold, Marcus Gilbert, Michael Roos
Other- Jared Veldheer (3rd), Jermon Bushrod (4th), Marshall Newhouse (5th), Jared Gaither (5th), Demetress Bell (7th), J'Marcus Webb (7th), Donald Penn (UFA)
A third of NFL starters were top 10 picks. 19 of 32 were first rounders. 25 of 32 were taken in the 2nd or earlier. Amazingly, only one player in the NFL went from undrafted free agent to NFL starter. Are there any other positions in the league with such impeccable pedigree?
Edit to add: Forgot that Marcus McNeill (2nd round) was still on the street, too.
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GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Jason Peters is out for the year, but he was an UDFA.
small nitpick this is the first time Tyron Smith has played LT in the NFL and also he didn't play it in college either. I've seen many lists that have Tyron Smith as a top left tackle, I don't understand how anyone can make that classification when he hasn't played that position in the league yet.
