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The Downside of Donald Brown (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Cecil Lammey
- Start date
Matt Waldman
Footballguy
Cecil, we've had plenty of discussion of our differences on Brown, but I like the examples you provided and I actually want to go back and watch a little more film on him with your write up so I can see what your saying and determine if it changes my view point.
Although we didn't really get to slow down the tape on the games we were watching at the FBGs retreat, you and I seemed to notice similar things in those games and your analysis has me wondering if I'm missing something.
Before I look at the tape again this weekend I do have some counterpoints I'd like to share:
- 210 lbs to me seems like a very good weight for a runner entering the league. He may not be able to add more than 5 additional pounds to his frame as it is, but I think backs like Jones and Portis seem to function pretty well with that weight range and they came in at 195-205 range.
-Jump-cuts I agree this can't be the only move in a back's arsenal and it better not be his primary move too often. At the same time I thought backs like Priest Holmes, Emmitt Smith, and even Jamal Anderson were pretty good at the jump cut and used it fairly often. Barry Sanders and Marshall Faulk had sick jump cuts, but they were so quick that I think it's not worth the comparison to the unproven Donald Brown. But you get my point, I think Thurman Thomas wasn't the only guy who did this effectively in the past two decades. What I want to re-examine is my documentation of the types of cuts I saw in the three games I studied of Brown.
-Vision Again, I want to re-examine this, but my first thought is to wonder if you have a higher standard of what NFL quality vision is for a back than I. When I watched Brown I thought he made consistently good decisions. Maybe he didn't make the outstanding cut or change of direction to something he saw on the periphery, but there are a lot of quality starters who lacked special vision on the level of Sayers, Faulk,etc. I think Jamaal Charles has really good peripheral vision, but he lacks good decision making at this point. Donald Brown may not have that level of peripheral vision, but I think his decisions make up for it. Again, I want to look at the tape again.
Nice breakdown though. I wish we had more time to actually watch film together in an environment where we could have used a remote to re-examine plays in slow motion and rewind them how we want. I find slow motion a highly valuable tool, the same can e said for pausing action and using the fast forward button on a TIVO remote to incrementally make each frame move. Sometimes the details of technique (or lack there of) really pop out.
Good stuff, Cec. I'm looking forward to reading you rankings and Bloom's 100 in the coming weeks.
Although we didn't really get to slow down the tape on the games we were watching at the FBGs retreat, you and I seemed to notice similar things in those games and your analysis has me wondering if I'm missing something.
Before I look at the tape again this weekend I do have some counterpoints I'd like to share:
- 210 lbs to me seems like a very good weight for a runner entering the league. He may not be able to add more than 5 additional pounds to his frame as it is, but I think backs like Jones and Portis seem to function pretty well with that weight range and they came in at 195-205 range.
-Jump-cuts I agree this can't be the only move in a back's arsenal and it better not be his primary move too often. At the same time I thought backs like Priest Holmes, Emmitt Smith, and even Jamal Anderson were pretty good at the jump cut and used it fairly often. Barry Sanders and Marshall Faulk had sick jump cuts, but they were so quick that I think it's not worth the comparison to the unproven Donald Brown. But you get my point, I think Thurman Thomas wasn't the only guy who did this effectively in the past two decades. What I want to re-examine is my documentation of the types of cuts I saw in the three games I studied of Brown.
-Vision Again, I want to re-examine this, but my first thought is to wonder if you have a higher standard of what NFL quality vision is for a back than I. When I watched Brown I thought he made consistently good decisions. Maybe he didn't make the outstanding cut or change of direction to something he saw on the periphery, but there are a lot of quality starters who lacked special vision on the level of Sayers, Faulk,etc. I think Jamaal Charles has really good peripheral vision, but he lacks good decision making at this point. Donald Brown may not have that level of peripheral vision, but I think his decisions make up for it. Again, I want to look at the tape again.
Nice breakdown though. I wish we had more time to actually watch film together in an environment where we could have used a remote to re-examine plays in slow motion and rewind them how we want. I find slow motion a highly valuable tool, the same can e said for pausing action and using the fast forward button on a TIVO remote to incrementally make each frame move. Sometimes the details of technique (or lack there of) really pop out.
Good stuff, Cec. I'm looking forward to reading you rankings and Bloom's 100 in the coming weeks.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Nice breakdown Cec. I agree with a little more of what Matt wrote, esp regarding his size and vision. But I do agree with the jump cuts and extra steps negatives that you mention. I also don't think he's quite as explosive as other top backs are in the NFL.
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Cecil Lammey
Footballguy
It was awesome watching football with you and Bloom.Cecil, we've had plenty of discussion of our differences on Brown, but I like the examples you provided and I actually want to go back and watch a little more film on him with your write up so I can see what your saying and determine if it changes my view point.
Although we didn't really get to slow down the tape on the games we were watching at the FBGs retreat, you and I seemed to notice similar things in those games and your analysis has me wondering if I'm missing something.
Before I look at the tape again this weekend I do have some counterpoints I'd like to share:
- 210 lbs to me seems like a very good weight for a runner entering the league. He may not be able to add more than 5 additional pounds to his frame as it is, but I think backs like Jones and Portis seem to function pretty well with that weight range and they came in at 195-205 range.
-Jump-cuts I agree this can't be the only move in a back's arsenal and it better not be his primary move too often. At the same time I thought backs like Priest Holmes, Emmitt Smith, and even Jamal Anderson were pretty good at the jump cut and used it fairly often. Barry Sanders and Marshall Faulk had sick jump cuts, but they were so quick that I think it's not worth the comparison to the unproven Donald Brown. But you get my point, I think Thurman Thomas wasn't the only guy who did this effectively in the past two decades. What I want to re-examine is my documentation of the types of cuts I saw in the three games I studied of Brown.
-Vision Again, I want to re-examine this, but my first thought is to wonder if you have a higher standard of what NFL quality vision is for a back than I. When I watched Brown I thought he made consistently good decisions. Maybe he didn't make the outstanding cut or change of direction to something he saw on the periphery, but there are a lot of quality starters who lacked special vision on the level of Sayers, Faulk,etc. I think Jamaal Charles has really good peripheral vision, but he lacks good decision making at this point. Donald Brown may not have that level of peripheral vision, but I think his decisions make up for it. Again, I want to look at the tape again.
Nice breakdown though. I wish we had more time to actually watch film together in an environment where we could have used a remote to re-examine plays in slow motion and rewind them how we want. I find slow motion a highly valuable tool, the same can e said for pausing action and using the fast forward button on a TIVO remote to incrementally make each frame move. Sometimes the details of technique (or lack there of) really pop out.
Good stuff, Cec. I'm looking forward to reading you rankings and Bloom's 100 in the coming weeks.
I don't see the "eyes in the back of his head" type of ability from Donald Brown. I want a back to see lanes and set up defenders without thinking about it. It's an understanding of pursuit angles, and being able to see where the defense is coming from. Marshall Faulk was one of the best reading the defense before the play. And you're right his "matador" move gave me chills every time I watched him play. We've both seen plays where Brown reverses his field and picks up positive yardage, but it's more of a product of the chaos creating huge openings than it is Brown maneuvering the defense with his body.
For example, LeSean McCoy could make a defender miss in a phone booth. Part of that is his crazy!! athletic ability, and part of that is his field awareness and vision. As we've both noted McCoy has so many moves that he sometimes out-jukes himself.
I like that Brown was able to have so much production with a HORRIFIC passing game. The QB play was almost non-existent. Each and every week the defense was keyed on Brown and he still got it done. However, IMHO, a back must project to be more than a nice part of a committee if he's ranked #2 by one of the premiere experts in the country.
Cecil Lammey
Footballguy
Thanks for checking it out Construx! I know it's not a popular sentiment to doubt Brown, especially with guys like Mayock talking him up so much. I just want to give people something to think about, and to have pause before anointing him the next great one. The vision vs making good decisions is an interesting topic. They work hand in hand, although sometimes the choice is very obvious - which means a back relies less on his vision because the play is RIGHT THERE! Very interesting, I'm going to spend some more time thinking about this.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Cec...that's some good stuff right there. 
I admittedly have a higher view on Brown, but your analysis certainly has me wondering if I'm expecting too much from the kid.
Thanks for doing that.
I admittedly have a higher view on Brown, but your analysis certainly has me wondering if I'm expecting too much from the kid.
Thanks for doing that.
Cecil Lammey
Footballguy
Hey brother, I love the debate! We can all learn from each other!Cec...that's some good stuff right there.I admittedly have a higher view on Brown, but your analysis certainly has me wondering if I'm expecting too much from the kid.Thanks for doing that.
az_prof
Footballguy
It is really hard to pick between McCoy, Well, and Brown at this point. Each one has flaws. Maybe people drafting third, fourth, fifth, should be taking a harder look at some of the WRs behind Crabtree? Normally I don't like to take a WR in the first round of a rookie draft but maybe this is the year?
EBF
Footballguy
I don't know what to make of this guy. I wasn't too high on him entering the combine, but he put up some staggering workout numbers. On paper he's an exceptional athlete. Yet when I watch him play, I don't really see an obvious starting caliber back. JJ Arrington might be an apt comparison since he was also a massively productive college player who hit a home run at the combine and still flopped in the NFL.
trader jake
Footballguy
Talent over situation/opportunity...right? I'm getting the feeling many are going to be swayed by those team situations after the draft this season, more than in past years at least.
On the goal-line which NFL player would Donald Brown most closely resemble?
On the goal-line which NFL player would Donald Brown most closely resemble?
EBF
Footballguy
I think that's appropriate though. None of this year's RBs look flawless on paper. We know that when the dust settles 2-3 of these guys will probably become good NFL starters, but I can look at all of them and tell you why they'll fail:McCoy - Horrible combine numbers, lack of powerMoreno - Below average combine numbers, lack of ideal size or speedWells - Injury prone, limited lower body strength, lacks toughnessGreene - Lacks speed and explosionBrown - Size/speed tweener who doesn't have conventional workhorse size or scatback explosivenessI'm not saying these guys are all going to be busts, but you can find reasons to be down on them. There isn't a flawless player in this bunch. For that reason, I think situation will be more important than usual. Whoever gets on the field and gets the most touches has the best chance of immediate success. We saw that last year with Forte, Slaton, and CJ3.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Hey Cec, Yeah, I think people combine vision with decision making and I think that's a mistake. I think that decision making is much more important than vision. I imagine that's not a popular opinion, but I still think it's valid. The reason is that there are situations, schemes and opponents when vision doesn't matter. If the blocking is right or the opponent is bad, the ability to see better laterally is not generally as necessary. As you say, sometimes the play is RIGHT THERE. There is no scheme needed. Some teams with one read, behind the LOS don't need a RB to have the vision to make cut backs when he gets to the 2nd or 3rd level. It's just not part of the scheme. But in almost all situations when running the ball, you need to make the right decisions. Sure, it may be as simple as "Holy crap, there's no one there! Keep running straight!!". But lots of time during a run there are subtle decisions that need to be made in regards to direction, speed, fight or flight (hit the defender or juke), switch the ball hand, etc. A RB who can make quick and generally good decisions on all those things is better, IMO, than one that has good vision but is constantly unsure of whether to fight or flight, slow down or speed up, head juke/shoulder juke, etc.
Moonlight_Graham
Footballguy
EBF
Footballguy
I don't want to get off on a tangent, but people who are familiar with my posts from the past 2-3 years know that I've always placed a lot of emphasis on the vertical/broad jump/40 triangle. When you bomb historically in two out of three drills, I think it's safe to say you had horrible combine numbers. One mediocre mark doesn't negate two dismal marks.
Matt Waldman
Footballguy
Good discussion going on here...I wish we could get together for a day or two of watching film, have Marc film the the exercise of us doing it and take pieces of it where we really break down something of interest and post it as an episode.
As for the vision/decision breakdown. I think a guy like Jamaal Charles or McCoy are, at varying degrees, good examples of guys who have excellent vision to see openings but sometimes don't process the best decision and act on it. They are like those people who walk into a room and with a quick scan they can tell you about 15 things that's happening in that room but have difficulty doing it articulately and with a sense of priority. I think Charles is the RB version of that guy sometimes. It's like the offensive line is a candy store and he's a little kid. When he gets the ball it's like someone telling that kid, you can have anything you want in the store but you only have seconds to choose. He'll see one thing but then see something else equally appealing and wind up making a bad decision. I think McCoy sometimes does this, too.
I did hear that the book on Brown was that he was a less disciplined, polished runner and improved a lot this year. I think I have some UCONN tape from last year so I may check that out, too.
EBF mentions his take on all of these top backs and one thing I will be injecting to the conversation of RB rankings will likely be my much higher view of Cedric Peerman than most other people based on what I'm reading in the Shark Pool. I spent this weekend watching another game of his to find a reason to downgrade him, but if anything he impressed me more. I'll be talking about this more in early April, but I have a feeling he'll be in my top five at the position-I'm just that sold on his power, cutting ability, burst, and smarts. As a Georgia fan, I actually think if Peerman were in Athens instead of Charlettesville (sp), Knowshon Moreno would have split time with Peerman equally if not a little more weighted towards Peerman in certain situations. They have very similar skill sets in tight quarters with Moreno being a little more elusive in tight spaces and Peerman being more powerful.
I would think 5'10", 215 is a nice-sized runner. I have a difficult time with the whole "what is ideal size for an RB" issue. It's a little too mass-production thinking for my taste. But I'm more of a believer in what does the individual do well and how can that fit...
As for the vision/decision breakdown. I think a guy like Jamaal Charles or McCoy are, at varying degrees, good examples of guys who have excellent vision to see openings but sometimes don't process the best decision and act on it. They are like those people who walk into a room and with a quick scan they can tell you about 15 things that's happening in that room but have difficulty doing it articulately and with a sense of priority. I think Charles is the RB version of that guy sometimes. It's like the offensive line is a candy store and he's a little kid. When he gets the ball it's like someone telling that kid, you can have anything you want in the store but you only have seconds to choose. He'll see one thing but then see something else equally appealing and wind up making a bad decision. I think McCoy sometimes does this, too.
I did hear that the book on Brown was that he was a less disciplined, polished runner and improved a lot this year. I think I have some UCONN tape from last year so I may check that out, too.
EBF mentions his take on all of these top backs and one thing I will be injecting to the conversation of RB rankings will likely be my much higher view of Cedric Peerman than most other people based on what I'm reading in the Shark Pool. I spent this weekend watching another game of his to find a reason to downgrade him, but if anything he impressed me more. I'll be talking about this more in early April, but I have a feeling he'll be in my top five at the position-I'm just that sold on his power, cutting ability, burst, and smarts. As a Georgia fan, I actually think if Peerman were in Athens instead of Charlettesville (sp), Knowshon Moreno would have split time with Peerman equally if not a little more weighted towards Peerman in certain situations. They have very similar skill sets in tight quarters with Moreno being a little more elusive in tight spaces and Peerman being more powerful.
I would think 5'10", 215 is a nice-sized runner. I have a difficult time with the whole "what is ideal size for an RB" issue. It's a little too mass-production thinking for my taste. But I'm more of a believer in what does the individual do well and how can that fit...
