The effects of all the strict roughing the passer rules have finally d (1 Viewer)

[Marc Levin]

They need to bring back in the grasp. If a player gets a QB under control for more than a sec, play is over. QBs fake slides, fake going out of bounds, fake throws and if you even touch a QB these days after the throw, its 15 yards for roughing. I hate seeing QBs hurt, but this has gone way too far.

You're whole argument is moot. The ball was still in his hands.

It would have been a sack if he continued to hold Young and Young looked to throw the ball, and he wouldn't have let him go if that rule existed. Young would have had to fight out of his grasp, and then would not have converted the 1st down.

 

[Marc Levin]

I agree the roughing the passer calls are out of control. Regardless, Kiwanuka blew it big time.

Anyone remember south park episode "Chef goes nanners:""I think the flag is racist. I think the flag is tradition."There's two issues here. Kiwanuka blew it - my analogy above about the dog that gets tricked by the fake throw.That is not the debate - WHY he let him go is the debate. The ONLY reason he let him go was b/c of the B.S. roughing rules that are making it EXTREMELY difficult to play proper defense against QBs.

 

[Kyoto Burger]

They need to bring back in the grasp. If a player gets a QB under control for more than a sec, play is over. QBs fake slides, fake going out of bounds, fake throws and if you even touch a QB these days after the throw, its 15 yards for roughing. I hate seeing QBs hurt, but this has gone way too far.

You're whole argument is moot. The ball was still in his hands. It was the player's ridiculous mental error, not the rules that caused this. That's like a DL not trying to make a tackle as a RB goes by him because he's scared of getting the facemask. It isn't roughing until after the pass. There was no pass so he couldn't get a roughing call. Bad mistake by the player.

I'm not sure you can call it a mental error. A mental error is a late hit. If he thought he threw the ball, he thought he threw the ball. Kiwi takes some blame but I'm not sure what you call it.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I agree the roughing the passer calls are out of control. Regardless, Kiwanuka blew it big time.

Anyone remember south park episode "Chef goes nanners:""I think the flag is racist. I think the flag is tradition."There's two issues here. Kiwanuka blew it - my analogy above about the dog that gets tricked by the fake throw.That is not the debate - WHY he let him go is the debate. The ONLY reason he let him go was b/c of the B.S. roughing rules that are making it EXTREMELY difficult to play proper defense against QBs.

The "BS roughing rules" would only be applicable if Young didn't have the ball. He did have the ball. It was Kiwanuka incorrectly thinking that he did not have the ball that lead him to his decision, and that renders "BS roughing rules" irrelevant since they should not have applied to the situation.

 

[Koya]

I agree the roughing the passer calls are out of control. Regardless, Kiwanuka blew it big time.

Anyone remember south park episode "Chef goes nanners:""I think the flag is racist. I think the flag is tradition."There's two issues here. Kiwanuka blew it - my analogy above about the dog that gets tricked by the fake throw.That is not the debate - WHY he let him go is the debate. The ONLY reason he let him go was b/c of the B.S. roughing rules that are making it EXTREMELY difficult to play proper defense against QBs.

The "BS roughing rules" would only be applicable if Young didn't have the ball. He did have the ball. It was Kiwanuka incorrectly thinking that he did not have the ball that lead him to his decision, and that renders "BS roughing rules" irrelevant since they should not have applied to the situation.

I can't believe how difficult this concept is for some to grasp.Of COURSE the roughing rules may be relevant because if a D player is worried that his tackling the QB will result in a ticky tack penalty as it has countless times this year, then you are going to change how that defensive player thinks and plays.It doesnt matter the specifics of the situation. All that matters is whether D players are unable to perform their primary task without in the back of their mind being continually worried about getting a roughing call.

 

[mad sweeney]

They need to bring back in the grasp. If a player gets a QB under control for more than a sec, play is over. QBs fake slides, fake going out of bounds, fake throws and if you even touch a QB these days after the throw, its 15 yards for roughing. I hate seeing QBs hurt, but this has gone way too far.

You're whole argument is moot. The ball was still in his hands. It was the player's ridiculous mental error, not the rules that caused this. That's like a DL not trying to make a tackle as a RB goes by him because he's scared of getting the facemask. It isn't roughing until after the pass. There was no pass so he couldn't get a roughing call. Bad mistake by the player.

I'm not sure you can call it a mental error. A mental error is a late hit. If he thought he threw the ball, he thought he threw the ball. Kiwi takes some blame but I'm not sure what you call it.

How do you not call it a mental error? He thought the passer threw the ball, despite no whistle and no ref calling him off. If you erroneously think something happened (which didn't) and then act upon it then that is a mental error. He was wrong. He had no reason to believe that the ball left Young's hand. Period. Worrying about roughing doesnt cut it because he mentally lapsed.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I agree the roughing the passer calls are out of control. Regardless, Kiwanuka blew it big time.

Anyone remember south park episode "Chef goes nanners:""I think the flag is racist. I think the flag is tradition."

There's two issues here. Kiwanuka blew it - my analogy above about the dog that gets tricked by the fake throw.

That is not the debate - WHY he let him go is the debate. The ONLY reason he let him go was b/c of the B.S. roughing rules that are making it EXTREMELY difficult to play proper defense against QBs.

The "BS roughing rules" would only be applicable if Young didn't have the ball. He did have the ball. It was Kiwanuka incorrectly thinking that he did not have the ball that lead him to his decision, and that renders "BS roughing rules" irrelevant since they should not have applied to the situation.

I can't believe how difficult this concept is for some to grasp.Of COURSE the roughing rules may be relevant because if a D player is worried that his tackling the QB will result in a ticky tack penalty as it has countless times this year, then you are going to change how that defensive player thinks and plays.

It doesnt matter the specifics of the situation. All that matters is whether D players are unable to perform their primary task without in the back of their mind being continually worried about getting a roughing call.

Wow. It's not a difficult concept to grasp. I'll try again.Kiwanuka did not let Young go because he was afraid of getting flagged for hitting a QB WITH THE BALL. He let him go because he was afraid of getting flagged for hitting a QB WITHOUT THE BALL.

Young HAD THE BALL.

Therefore saying he was worried about roughing the passer is stupid.

Kiwanuka made the mistake here, not the refs. He could've knocked the snot out of Young and ended the game because Young HAD THE BALL.

 

[Biabreakable]

I hate the way the rules always help the offense and do not let the defense play football.

Vince Young is a strong guy. He could have broken the tackle on his own but having the rules about roughing the passer I am sure causes defenders some hesitation. Especialy with a HC like Coughlin who is big on discipline and not commiting penalties.

I say let em play. If your not tough enough to make it as a Qb then find someone else who is. I don't see any special rules protecting defensive players from getting blindsided ect. (GB Chris Walsh )

Reminds me of when I was playing a "friendly" game and this guy playing Qb was #####ing about late hits. But he kept on pump faking the ball so what does he expect?

 

[lod2005]

Not a Jets fan, but was watching the game when it happened. My reaction was that he had Young for what seemed like a couple of seconds and at that point he just assumed Young passed the ball and didn't want to slam him to the ground and get that penalty on 4th down. You can bet the next time that kid gets a roughing the passer penalty TC won't say #### to him.

That doesn't solve the problem. This BS about sissy QB's has caused a huge problem. Had Young actually let the ball go (say for a 5 yard gain) and Kiwiwhatever had continued to drive Young into the ground, he would have been flagged for roughing the passer. The result would have been a 1st down. No whistle would have been blown. Kiwiwhatever could not tell if the ball was let go. His helmet was in Young's chest. However he could have just picked Young up and held him and looked around until another defender arrived on the scene and planted Young on his dome.

 

[lod2005]

They need to bring back in the grasp. If a player gets a QB under control for more than a sec, play is over. QBs fake slides, fake going out of bounds, fake throws and if you even touch a QB these days after the throw, its 15 yards for roughing. I hate seeing QBs hurt, but this has gone way too far.

You're whole argument is moot. The ball was still in his hands. It was the player's ridiculous mental error, not the rules that caused this. That's like a DL not trying to make a tackle as a RB goes by him because he's scared of getting the facemask. It isn't roughing until after the pass. There was no pass so he couldn't get a roughing call. Bad mistake by the player.

I'm not sure you can call it a mental error. A mental error is a late hit. If he thought he threw the ball, he thought he threw the ball. Kiwi takes some blame but I'm not sure what you call it.

How do you not call it a mental error? He thought the passer threw the ball, despite no whistle and no ref calling him off. If you erroneously think something happened (which didn't) and then act upon it then that is a mental error. He was wrong. He had no reason to believe that the ball left Young's hand. Period. Worrying about roughing doesnt cut it because he mentally lapsed.

Um...he didn't know he had the ball. His head was planted in his chest and Young was holding the ball above him. Can you tell em how he knew Young still had the ball? He didn't. Your point is moot. Still a mental error but it can totally be blamed on the new lame rules.

 

[PatsWillWin]

They need to bring back in the grasp. If a player gets a QB under control for more than a sec, play is over. QBs fake slides, fake going out of bounds, fake throws and if you even touch a QB these days after the throw, its 15 yards for roughing. I hate seeing QBs hurt, but this has gone way too far.

You're whole argument is moot. The ball was still in his hands. It was the player's ridiculous mental error, not the rules that caused this. That's like a DL not trying to make a tackle as a RB goes by him because he's scared of getting the facemask. It isn't roughing until after the pass. There was no pass so he couldn't get a roughing call. Bad mistake by the player.

I'm not sure you can call it a mental error. A mental error is a late hit. If he thought he threw the ball, he thought he threw the ball. Kiwi takes some blame but I'm not sure what you call it.

How do you not call it a mental error? He thought the passer threw the ball, despite no whistle and no ref calling him off. If you erroneously think something happened (which didn't) and then act upon it then that is a mental error. He was wrong. He had no reason to believe that the ball left Young's hand. Period. Worrying about roughing doesnt cut it because he mentally lapsed.

Um...he didn't know he had the ball. His head was planted in his chest and Young was holding the ball above him. Can you tell em how he knew Young still had the ball? He didn't. Your point is moot. Still a mental error but it can totally be blamed on the new lame rules.

Please explain how the rules account for Kiwanuka thinking Young had thrown the ball when he hadn't.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Anyone who saw the Giants game can agree with me, on fourth and ten in the forth quarter with like 3 minutes left the Giant's Mathis Kiwanukahad Vince Young wrapped up but thought he had thrown the ball and didn't want a roughing the passer penalty but he let him go.There's no doubt Kiwi of the Giants messed up big time by not holding onto Young until he knew exactly what was going on. However, with the way the refs call "roughing the passer" it's upsetting that defensive players have to think twice about leveling a QB.

Play until you hear the whistle.'Nuff said

?... What if Young had thrown the ball (which is what Kiwanuka appeared to think at the moment)...Suppose the Colts are at their own 5yl... you get a clean shot at Peyton, who just dumped it off to Addai... so you hold on to him, slam him to the ground... you don't hear a whistle since Addai is going for 95 yards and it's going to take a few seconds... so you take Peyton back up and slam him to the ground again? you give him the good old double-nelson, the bear hug, you ride him to the bench and slam his head on it since the whistle still has not blown?...

The ref will yell "Ball's gone! Ball's gone!" repeatedly when/if the QB lets go of the ball. That's so the defenders know not to slam the QB. And you don't even have to slam the QB down, you just have to not let him go. Kiwi heard neither whislte nor ref, a mental lapse pure and simple. While I agree that many of the QB rules result in bad outcomes and should be changed but blaming this mental error on that is absurd.

I'd like to see some proof of this. I have NEVER heard the refs yell "Ball's gone." And when you're talking less than a second of reaction time I seriously doubt a ref would even start saying that before it was too late. I'm with Levin on this one. A combination of the helmet to helmet rule and roughing the passer really put him in a tough position. You can't go high with your helmet at all or else you're going to be called for helmet to helmet. So you go low. Only the QB pump fakes with his arm and feeling that, the defender doesn't bury the QB because he doesn't want to get a roughing the passer call.

 

[MSULions]

They need to bring back in the grasp. If a player gets a QB under control for more than a sec, play is over. QBs fake slides, fake going out of bounds, fake throws and if you even touch a QB these days after the throw, its 15 yards for roughing. I hate seeing QBs hurt, but this has gone way too far.

You're whole argument is moot. The ball was still in his hands. It was the player's ridiculous mental error, not the rules that caused this. That's like a DL not trying to make a tackle as a RB goes by him because he's scared of getting the facemask. It isn't roughing until after the pass. There was no pass so he couldn't get a roughing call. Bad mistake by the player.

I was shocked when i finally saw the replay. There's a far cry from driving a QB to the ground and simply tackling him. That's all Kiwanuka had to do. he just let him go before he even came close to bringing him down. While the roughing rules are a bit too stringent, I can't possibly see how even if he did throw it away while in his grasp it could ever be considered roughing, unless he did so extremely violently. Just tackle the guy and the game is over. Stupid Stupid play on the part of Kiwanuka, plain and simple.

 

[MSULions]

Anyone who saw the Giants game can agree with me, on fourth and ten in the forth quarter with like 3 minutes left the Giant's Mathis Kiwanukahad Vince Young wrapped up but thought he had thrown the ball and didn't want a roughing the passer penalty but he let him go.There's no doubt Kiwi of the Giants messed up big time by not holding onto Young until he knew exactly what was going on. However, with the way the refs call "roughing the passer" it's upsetting that defensive players have to think twice about leveling a QB.

Play until you hear the whistle.'Nuff said

?... What if Young had thrown the ball (which is what Kiwanuka appeared to think at the moment)...Suppose the Colts are at their own 5yl... you get a clean shot at Peyton, who just dumped it off to Addai... so you hold on to him, slam him to the ground... you don't hear a whistle since Addai is going for 95 yards and it's going to take a few seconds... so you take Peyton back up and slam him to the ground again? you give him the good old double-nelson, the bear hug, you ride him to the bench and slam his head on it since the whistle still has not blown?...

The ref will yell "Ball's gone! Ball's gone!" repeatedly when/if the QB lets go of the ball. That's so the defenders know not to slam the QB. And you don't even have to slam the QB down, you just have to not let him go. Kiwi heard neither whislte nor ref, a mental lapse pure and simple. While I agree that many of the QB rules result in bad outcomes and should be changed but blaming this mental error on that is absurd.

I'd like to see some proof of this. I have NEVER heard the refs yell "Ball's gone." And when you're talking less than a second of reaction time I seriously doubt a ref would even start saying that before it was too late. I'm with Levin on this one. A combination of the helmet to helmet rule and roughing the passer really put him in a tough position. You can't go high with your helmet at all or else you're going to be called for helmet to helmet. So you go low. Only the QB pump fakes with his arm and feeling that, the defender doesn't bury the QB because he doesn't want to get a roughing the passer call.

Golic made this point on Mike and Mike this morning - saying that everyone yells "Ball! Ball! Ball!" when it leaves the qb's hands...players and refs alike. there were other Giant defenders right there that would have done so if Young had thrown it.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

What I did not get about the play is how Young could have held onto the ball. It was fourth down. He was clearly in the grasp and about to go down. Why he did not try to make a play by throwing the ball is inconcievable to me. What did he think was going to happen, that he would be let go so that he could scramble for the first down?

 

[redman]

The way that most people are arguing this is that Kiwanuka had two options: 1) let Young go (which he did), or 2) body slam him into the ground, decapitate him, and plow a 100-yard furrow which his headless corpse (read "do something violent to draw the roughing penalty). That's garbage.

He could have continued doing what he was doing, which was keep Young in his grasp and push him backwards (but upright) until the whistle blew. I suppose there were other moderate options too, but simply letting go is inexcusable here, regardless of the rule. To complain about the rule after a really boneheaded play reeks of "the dog ate my homework".

 

[Clayton Gray]

They need to bring back in the grasp. If a player gets a QB under control for more than a sec, play is over. QBs fake slides, fake going out of bounds, fake throws and if you even touch a QB these days after the throw, its 15 yards for roughing. I hate seeing QBs hurt, but this has gone way too far.

You're whole argument is moot. The ball was still in his hands. It was the player's ridiculous mental error, not the rules that caused this. That's like a DL not trying to make a tackle as a RB goes by him because he's scared of getting the facemask. It isn't roughing until after the pass. There was no pass so he couldn't get a roughing call. Bad mistake by the player.

I was shocked when i finally saw the replay. There's a far cry from driving a QB to the ground and simply tackling him. That's all Kiwanuka had to do. he just let him go before he even came close to bringing him down. While the roughing rules are a bit too stringent, I can't possibly see how even if he did throw it away while in his grasp it could ever be considered roughing, unless he did so extremely violently. Just tackle the guy and the game is over. Stupid Stupid play on the part of Kiwanuka, plain and simple.

You mean like
?

 

[MSULions]

They need to bring back in the grasp. If a player gets a QB under control for more than a sec, play is over. QBs fake slides, fake going out of bounds, fake throws and if you even touch a QB these days after the throw, its 15 yards for roughing. I hate seeing QBs hurt, but this has gone way too far.

You're whole argument is moot. The ball was still in his hands. It was the player's ridiculous mental error, not the rules that caused this. That's like a DL not trying to make a tackle as a RB goes by him because he's scared of getting the facemask. It isn't roughing until after the pass. There was no pass so he couldn't get a roughing call. Bad mistake by the player.

I was shocked when i finally saw the replay. There's a far cry from driving a QB to the ground and simply tackling him. That's all Kiwanuka had to do. he just let him go before he even came close to bringing him down. While the roughing rules are a bit too stringent, I can't possibly see how even if he did throw it away while in his grasp it could ever be considered roughing, unless he did so extremely violently. Just tackle the guy and the game is over. Stupid Stupid play on the part of Kiwanuka, plain and simple.

You mean like

no...i didn't say slam him head first into the turf. I said tackle him. Regardless....simply letting him go one second after grabbing him was an idiotic decision.

 

[Clayton Gray]

They need to bring back in the grasp. If a player gets a QB under control for more than a sec, play is over. QBs fake slides, fake going out of bounds, fake throws and if you even touch a QB these days after the throw, its 15 yards for roughing. I hate seeing QBs hurt, but this has gone way too far.

You're whole argument is moot. The ball was still in his hands. It was the player's ridiculous mental error, not the rules that caused this. That's like a DL not trying to make a tackle as a RB goes by him because he's scared of getting the facemask. It isn't roughing until after the pass. There was no pass so he couldn't get a roughing call. Bad mistake by the player.

I was shocked when i finally saw the replay. There's a far cry from driving a QB to the ground and simply tackling him. That's all Kiwanuka had to do. he just let him go before he even came close to bringing him down. While the roughing rules are a bit too stringent, I can't possibly see how even if he did throw it away while in his grasp it could ever be considered roughing, unless he did so extremely violently. Just tackle the guy and the game is over. Stupid Stupid play on the part of Kiwanuka, plain and simple.

You mean like

Are you Mike Pereira?

 

[lod2005]

Please explain how the rules account for Kiwanuka thinking Young had thrown the ball when he hadn't.

If Young threw the ball and kiwiwhatever planted Young into the ground on that play, there would have been a flag thrown. GUARANTEED. I said 'rules' but you should be able to comprehend that I meant the new 'way it is'.

 

[redman]

You mean like

You're showing by far the most egregiouis example of that rule being over-enforced. Those kinds of hits/tackles occur dozens of times every week and aren't penalized. If Kiwanuka had done that, we can say with over a 99% level of confidence that he'd not have been penalized.

 

[lod2005]

I beleive it was the BAL-PIT game where one of the defenders wrapped up golden boy Roethlsiberger and planted him into the ground but no penalty was called (and shouldn't either). What the defender did was just before they landed, he let go of Roethlisberger and just landed on him like a belly flop. He was clearly afraid to get a penalty for making a good paly. It's the new way you have to tackle. That's pathetic.

 

[Clayton Gray]

You mean like

If you don't think that play is in the mind of NFL defenders, then you are missing the point of this thread.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Please explain how the rules account for Kiwanuka thinking Young had thrown the ball when he hadn't.

If Young threw the ball and kiwiwhatever planted Young into the ground on that play, there would have been a flag thrown. GUARANTEED. I said 'rules' but you should be able to comprehend that I meant the new 'way it is'.

Young had the ball.

Kiwanuka f'd up.

It had nothing to do with the refs.

IF Young had thrown the ball - Kiwanuka shouldn't be driving him into the ground anyway.

IF Young had the ball - Kiwanuka could've knocked the crap out of him.

Young HAD THE BALL.

Nobody has successfully explained why what Kiwanuka thought the refs would do is relevant at all in this situation when you KNOW that Kiwanuka was thinking about a situation that did not exist.

Kiwanuka's mental error occurs at Point A.

Kiwanuka then makes a decision based on the roughing rules at Point B.

Point A is what makes the whole thing possible. If Kiwanuka knows where the balls is, he never gets to Point B.

 

[PatsWillWin]

You mean like

The point of the thread is wrong.

 

[TinHat]

They lost

Get over it

Life goes on

 

[lod2005]

Please explain how the rules account for Kiwanuka thinking Young had thrown the ball when he hadn't.

If Young threw the ball and kiwiwhatever planted Young into the ground on that play, there would have been a flag thrown. GUARANTEED. I said 'rules' but you should be able to comprehend that I meant the new 'way it is'.

Young had the ball.

Kiwanuka f'd up.

It had nothing to do with the refs.

IF Young had thrown the ball - Kiwanuka shouldn't be driving him into the ground anyway.

IF Young had the ball - Kiwanuka could've knocked the crap out of him.

Young HAD THE BALL.

Nobody has successfully explained why what Kiwanuka thought the refs would do is relevant at all in this situation when you KNOW that Kiwanuka was thinking about a situation that did not exist.

Kiwanuka's mental error occurs at Point A.

Kiwanuka then makes a decision based on the roughing rules at Point B.

Point A is what makes the whole thing possible. If Kiwanuka knows where the balls is, he never gets to Point B.

Brutally flawed. Correct analysis circa 1970-2003 or so, but due to the lame new 'way it is', this is totally flawed. It doesn't matter whether he had the ball or not, the fact that this new 'rule' of don't hurt the precious QB, caused Kiwiwhatever to let up. If there was no 'let's protect the QB' law, Young gets planted like Terry Bradshaw did back in the 70's with his head bouncing off the turf, the ball flies loose and the Giants win. The ####iness of the new NFL 'protect the QB' cost the Giants the game. It's that simple. To not see that is showing pure stupidity.YOU CANNOT KNOCK THE CRAP OUT OF THE QB. You may get flagged. Have you even been watching NFL football lately?

 

[Clayton Gray]

IF Young had the ball - Kiwanuka could've knocked the crap out of him.

Please stop staying this. It is simply incorrect, and you know it. Everyone paying attention is aware that the NFL protects QBs. If they are tackled with more force than necessary, it is very likely that a penalty will be called.

 

[Reaper]

You mean like

As a Jets fan I'm shocked you don't agree with the point of this thread......

How about the calls against the Jets Vs Leftwich and the Jags where a defender bounced off a 290lb Leftwich and got called for roughing....

Too bad we can't get a compilation of these video replays of horrible roughing calls.

I think there's about 3-4 roughing calls against the Jets I'd love to replay right now.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I beleive it was the BAL-PIT game where one of the defenders wrapped up golden boy Roethlsiberger and planted him into the ground but no penalty was called (and shouldn't either). What the defender did was just before they landed, he let go of Roethlisberger and just landed on him like a belly flop. He was clearly afraid to get a penalty for making a good paly. It's the new way you have to tackle. That's pathetic.

It's amazing how preconditioned we've (or I've) become already to this, as I immediately looked for a flag on Scott's sack on Big Ben - even though there was nothing out of line with it. It was so violent, though, that I was thinking "here comes the flag".

 

[PatsWillWin]

IF Young had the ball - Kiwanuka could've knocked the crap out of him.

Please stop staying this. It is simply incorrect, and you know it. Everyone paying attention is aware that the NFL protects QBs. If they are tackled with more force than necessary, it is very likely that a penalty will be called.

Well if this actually happened yesterday, I could see having a thread about it. But it's not what happened at all.

 

[PatsWillWin]

You mean like

I'm not a Jets fan.And I don't disagree that the roughing calls have gotten ridiculous - all I'm saying is that to lay the blame of Kiwanuka's brain fart yesterday on the roughing calls is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Brutally flawed. Correct analysis circa 1970-2003 or so, but due to the lame new 'way it is', this is totally flawed. It doesn't matter whether he had the ball or not, the fact that this new 'rule' of don't hurt the precious QB, caused Kiwiwhatever to let up. If there was no 'let's protect the QB' law, Young gets planted like Terry Bradshaw did back in the 70's with his head bouncing off the turf, the ball flies loose and the Giants win. The ####iness of the new NFL 'protect the QB' cost the Giants the game. It's that simple. To not see that is showing pure stupidity.YOU CANNOT KNOCK THE CRAP OUT OF THE QB. You may get flagged. Have you even been watching NFL football lately?

This thread is not about general #####ing of the roughing penalties. It's about the role of those roughing penalties in one specific instance yesterday. At least that's what the OP intended to discuss.I AGREE that the roughing calls have gotten ridiculous.I do NOT agree that the roughing calls are more to blame for this play in yesterday's gay more than Kiwanuka incorrectly believing that Young did not have the ball. THAT'S what caused this horribly stupid play, not the refs.

 

[Moniker]

Please explain how the rules account for Kiwanuka thinking Young had thrown the ball when he hadn't.

If Young threw the ball and kiwiwhatever planted Young into the ground on that play, there would have been a flag thrown. GUARANTEED. I said 'rules' but you should be able to comprehend that I meant the new 'way it is'.

Young had the ball.

Kiwanuka f'd up.

It had nothing to do with the refs.

IF Young had thrown the ball - Kiwanuka shouldn't be driving him into the ground anyway.

IF Young had the ball - Kiwanuka could've knocked the crap out of him.

Young HAD THE BALL.

Nobody has successfully explained why what Kiwanuka thought the refs would do is relevant at all in this situation when you KNOW that Kiwanuka was thinking about a situation that did not exist.

Kiwanuka's mental error occurs at Point A.

Kiwanuka then makes a decision based on the roughing rules at Point B.

Point A is what makes the whole thing possible. If Kiwanuka knows where the balls is, he never gets to Point B.

I am now positive that you either argue with people just to argue or that you actually don't watch football. Defenders have been letting up when they are come in contact with a quarterback since about week five of the season. It happens every game. Every game. They are afraid to get flagged for fifteen yards.It has nothing to do with the refs, they are just doing their job. It's the stupid rule that needs to go.

 

[Clayton Gray]

IF Young had the ball - Kiwanuka could've knocked the crap out of him.

Please stop staying this. It is simply incorrect, and you know it. Everyone paying attention is aware that the NFL protects QBs. If they are tackled with more force than necessary, it is very likely that a penalty will be called.

Well if this actually happened yesterday, I could see having a thread about it. But it's not what happened at all.

So there needed to be one more example of the referees overprotecting QBs for you to get the point? That makes sense.

 

[Clayton Gray]

Please explain how the rules account for Kiwanuka thinking Young had thrown the ball when he hadn't.

If Young threw the ball and kiwiwhatever planted Young into the ground on that play, there would have been a flag thrown. GUARANTEED. I said 'rules' but you should be able to comprehend that I meant the new 'way it is'.

Young had the ball.

Kiwanuka f'd up.

It had nothing to do with the refs.

IF Young had thrown the ball - Kiwanuka shouldn't be driving him into the ground anyway.

IF Young had the ball - Kiwanuka could've knocked the crap out of him.

Young HAD THE BALL.

Nobody has successfully explained why what Kiwanuka thought the refs would do is relevant at all in this situation when you KNOW that Kiwanuka was thinking about a situation that did not exist.

Kiwanuka's mental error occurs at Point A.

Kiwanuka then makes a decision based on the roughing rules at Point B.

Point A is what makes the whole thing possible. If Kiwanuka knows where the balls is, he never gets to Point B.

I am now positive that you either argue with people just to argue or that you actually don't watch football. Defenders have been letting up when they are come in contact with a quarterback since about week five of the season. It happens every game. Every game. They are afraid to get flagged for fifteen yards.It has nothing to do with the refs, they are just doing their job. It's the stupid rule that needs to go.

 

[Reaper]

You mean like

I'm not laying the blame for a loss on a play or a player..... I'm saying there's a call that's been ridiculously called all year and it's VERY POSSIBLE that the call can be changing the way defenders play and have played their whole life. FOOTBALL plays that we have witnessed our whole life, we now see and now even as fans we have to say "OH BOY slow dow, don't hit him too hard, don't carry any weight on him, make sure you turn your head so there's not a reasonable doubt!!!!! Place him down gently now"....

Then the call is called sometimes and sometimes not... It's becoming a situation like others where the ref can call it whenever he wants and that gives the ref too much power and opens it up for arguments like this.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I am now positive that you either argue with people just to argue or that you actually don't watch football. Defenders have been letting up when they are come in contact with a quarterback since about week five of the season. It happens every game. Every game. They are afraid to get flagged for fifteen yards.It has nothing to do with the refs, they are just doing their job. It's the stupid rule that needs to go.

Kiwanuka thought Young had thrown the ball.Young had the ball.Yet you think this is irrelevant and accuse me of not watching football.

 

[PatsWillWin]

IF Young had the ball - Kiwanuka could've knocked the crap out of him.

Please stop staying this. It is simply incorrect, and you know it. Everyone paying attention is aware that the NFL protects QBs. If they are tackled with more force than necessary, it is very likely that a penalty will be called.

Well if this actually happened yesterday, I could see having a thread about it. But it's not what happened at all.

So there needed to be one more example of the referees overprotecting QBs for you to get the point? That makes sense.

Wow. Unbelievable.How many times do I have to spell it out for you - I'm not arguing that roughing the passer calls have gotten out of hand.I'm saying that the psychological affect that the roughing calls may have had on Kiwanuka on THIS specific play, which is what this thread started out as, is inconsequential next to the fact that Kiwanuka thought that Young no longer had the ball when he did.Please try and actually read what I'm writing instead of looking for witty ways to score points. TIA.

 

[Clayton Gray]

IF Young had the ball - Kiwanuka could've knocked the crap out of him.

Please stop staying this. It is simply incorrect, and you know it. Everyone paying attention is aware that the NFL protects QBs. If they are tackled with more force than necessary, it is very likely that a penalty will be called.

Well if this actually happened yesterday, I could see having a thread about it. But it's not what happened at all.

So there needed to be one more example of the referees overprotecting QBs for you to get the point? That makes sense.

Wow. Unbelievable.How many times do I have to spell it out for you - I'm not arguing that roughing the passer calls have gotten out of hand.I'm saying that the psychological affect that the roughing calls may have had on Kiwanuka on THIS specific play, which is what this thread started out as, is inconsequential next to the fact that Kiwanuka thought that Young no longer had the ball when he did.Please try and actually read what I'm writing instead of looking for witty ways to score points. TIA.

OK. You win.

 

[Clayton Gray]

I am now positive that you either argue with people just to argue or that you actually don't watch football. Defenders have been letting up when they are come in contact with a quarterback since about week five of the season. It happens every game. Every game. They are afraid to get flagged for fifteen yards.

It has nothing to do with the refs, they are just doing their job. It's the stupid rule that needs to go.

Kiwanuka thought Young had thrown the ball.Young had the ball.

Yet you think this is irrelevant and accuse me of not watching football.

You admitted in the first reply:

Didn't see the play, but sounds like a stupid play by Kiwanuka.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I am now positive that you either argue with people just to argue or that you actually don't watch football. Defenders have been letting up when they are come in contact with a quarterback since about week five of the season. It happens every game. Every game. They are afraid to get flagged for fifteen yards.

It has nothing to do with the refs, they are just doing their job. It's the stupid rule that needs to go.

Kiwanuka thought Young had thrown the ball.Young had the ball.

Yet you think this is irrelevant and accuse me of not watching football.

You admitted in the first reply:

Didn't see the play, but sounds like a stupid play by Kiwanuka.

I have since seen the replay.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Let me ask one question to those that think that the psychological effect of the roughing penalty abuse was responsible for Kiwanuka's blown play yesterday. No BS, I legit want to know what you think so I can try to understand where you're coming from:

If Kiwanuka had known that Young still possessed the ball, do you still think that he would've just let him go like that because of the fear of getting a roughing penalty?

If you think the play would've ended up the same way, then we can just agree to disagree and I can continue with my day.

I think the answer is obviously no, Kiwanuka would've sacked him and ended the game.

 

[billyjoe]

It's a valid argument that the whole protecting the QB has made d-line far more careful.

If the QB would have been Favre, and the DE tied him up, was pushing him back, about 13 refs would have been blowing the whistle and running in to stop the play.

Because it was Young, they let the play run far longer then if it was an old white QB. If you wrap your arms around the qb, and start ####ing him backwards, they will blow the whistle 99% of the time, without question. I believe they would have done it here, if he had held on for 1-2 more seconds.

If the DE slams him into the ground, there's a chance he gets a 15 yard penatly for driving the qb into the ground. It's really a no win situation. If you wrap the QB up, push him back 3-4-5 yards, then slam him down, it will be called 100% of the time.

I don't put this on him at all. He wrapped up the Qb, stopped his forward progress, was pushing him back, there's no way you are taught to take the QB down at that point. Obviously you need to hold onto him, but he thought the ball was out. 20 years ago, the DE would have picked him up, and slammed him into the ground, ball being gone or not. The new rules have without question changed how the DE position is played.

 

[Aaronstory]

This play was a perfect example of why I love the game of football and hate the NFL.

The over-regulation in regards to protecting the quarterback has gotten completely out of control, and this play is a direct result.

 

[Reaper]

I think the answer is obviously no, Kiwanuka would've sacked him and ended the game.

NO.The game would have then been left in the hands of the ref who could call a roughing play as he sees fit and then the guy would come on NFL Network midweek and explain how the call was right, now matter what happened, so they can save face. Then the following week, yet another defender MIGHT be gun shy, not knowing for sure where the line is drawn trying to reign in his Football Instincts.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I think the answer is obviously no, Kiwanuka would've sacked him and ended the game.

NO.The game would have then been left in the hands of the ref who could call a roughing play as he sees fit and then the guy would come on NFL Network midweek and explain how the call was right, now matter what happened, so they can save face. Then the following week, yet another defender MIGHT be gun shy, not knowing for sure where the line is drawn trying to reign in his Football Instincts.

To me, assuming that a clean Kiwanuka sack would've definitely resulted in a roughing the passer call is pretty ridiculous. It's already an assumption here that Kiwanuka was acting carefully to avoid the flag. So if he had known that Young had the ball and sacked him, wouldn't it be logical to then assume he would be careful to make it a clean sack?I mean, you can just sit there and say no matter what there would've been a flag, but that's not really credible.