The Great Divide of Our Time (1 Viewer)

[James Daulton]

We have a chance to argue a sociological cosmopolitan/cognitive/etc. division and we're going to do identity politics? Oh well...but I guess in a way the self is the last American frontier. To take one's identity, deconstruct, and then reconstruct it might take a truly pioneering spirit, only inward.  

That's a whole lotta words that mean nothing. Much like the IQ study results folks like you love to propagate. 

 

[Encumbrance]

That's a whole lotta words that mean nothing. Much like the IQ study results folks like you love to propagate. 

You're quickly a fool often, aren't you, James?  

You can't even see that I explicitly stayed away from anything inflammatory in order to discuss this.  

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

There are certainly stupid people out there in politics. I use the word “stupidity” here, not necessarily to describe lack of overall intelligence or IQ, but as a sort of catchall term to describe certain traits: lazy, simplistic thinking, intellectually uninterested, often conspiracy minded, often closed minded. Here are some examples that immediately come to mind: 

Donald Trump

Maxine Waters 

Louis Gohmert 

Shelia Jackson Lee

Michelle Bachmann

Ihlan Omar

Sarah Palin 

Etc. As populism rises these types seem to become more popular. When populism decreases they’re typically marginalized and less people pay attention. 

Omar seems wildly out of place on this list.

 

[roadkill1292]

Sure.  Passages from the OP speech:

- “This class lives in the United States, but they identify as “citizens of the world.” They run businesses or oversee universities here, but their primary loyalty is to the global community.”

- “But it’s about more than economics. According to the cosmopolitan consensus, globalization is a moral imperative. That’s because our elites distrust patriotism and dislike the common culture left to us by our forbearers.”

This passage does a poor job at explaining what patriotism means.

 

[identikit]

Omar seems wildly out of place on this list.

She seems a little low to me.

 

[timschochet]

Omar seems wildly out of place on this list.

Maybe. I admit that I’ve only heard her talk a few times. Perhaps she’s more intellectual than I give her credit for. My initial impressions aren’t real high. 

 

[Jayrod]

Hawley was a bit of a mystery in Missouri and seems to have come out of nowhere (being young will do that).

He benefited from running against McCaskill who was essentially seen as Hillary-lite.  As long as he didn't screw it up, simply being an R with a clean nose gave him the leg up.

He is decidedly different than Trump, though.  He is thoughtful and reserved and much less rapey.  He is seen as what Greitens was supposed to be.

 

[Stealthycat]

lmfao.

Obama inherited a country about to go into a depression.  The first 2 years were spent climbing out of it and the last 6 trying to stabilize the economy.  Oh yea, he said police shouldn't shoot black people without cause, wow so divisive.  Oh, and he wanted healthcare for everyone.  The monster.

You folks act like you are simply without clue sometimes.

The biggest divide we have is educated vs uneducated and you can easily tell which side is which.  Luckily, economic realities are forcing more and more people to get educated so conservatives will all but be gone in 20'ish years. 

all that might be true

and yet, instead of bringing the country TOGETHER  it sharply divided ... what you see today is a continuation

think back .. the country didn't greatly divide under Clinton or Bush or Bush ........... but it fractured and splintered under Obama 

 

[rockaction]

It started under Clinton with the culture wars and didn’t stop and got perceptually worse

 

[identikit]

It started under Clinton with the culture wars and didn’t stop and got perceptually worse

..

Exactly.

 

[Murph]

We are a unique nation with a unique history and a unique purpose in the world.

That history began 2000 years ago,

This is where I stopped I reading.

 

[Stealthycat]

So then that would that be a “no” that the true great divide is a Cosmopolitan Class that envisions itself as citizens of the world that are separate, distinct, and above the more patriotic lower classes?

And do you think Trump has lessened or furthered the divides you attributed to Obama?

Trump has instigated and poked and prodded the media liberal/leftists and they've been very eager to play along and keep it going - this Russia witch hunt thing, the day after election protesting, the hate ... and then Trump's mouth and tweeting and stupid pet names ..... its a different type of division that is more political IMO and furthered yes

 

[timschochet]

It started under Clinton with the culture wars and didn’t stop and got perceptually worse

..

I recommend American Carnage about this subject. I’m reading it now. Very well done. 

Obama and the Republicans has the opportunity to bridge a lot of the divide. Both sides blew it: Republicans led by McConnell were determined to pursue a scorched earth policy instead of compromise; Obama, obtuse and arrogant and thought himself smarter than anyone else, responded in the worst possible way. Neither side addressed the concerns of people losing their jobs to automation and trade, which helped pave the way for 2016. 

 

[Stealthycat]

Maybe it's where I live or something but I never felt it was that bad.  It's possible it increased some but no where near the level it's at right now.  I really think the divide it at a level we have not seen in a very long time.

you don't remember the spawning of BLM and ANTIFA ? Occupy Wallstreet? the hatred towards rich? the muslims/Chrisitian hating? the hating on police/Dallas police murders etc? 

its been bad - think of all the division that occurred during those 8 Obama years on many many levels. its crazy

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

It started under Clinton with the culture wars and didn’t stop and got perceptually worse

..

I would attribute the "divided" country almost entirely to the fractured media landscape rather than anything any single politician has done.  When everyone was getting their information from Walter Cronkite there were still divisions, but not really different realities like there are now.

 

[rockaction]

Interesting thesis, and one I’d likely agree with.

 

[Hawkeye21]

you don't remember the spawning of BLM and ANTIFA ? Occupy Wallstreet? the hatred towards rich? the muslims/Chrisitian hating? the hating on police/Dallas police murders etc? 

its been bad - think of all the division that occurred during those 8 Obama years on many many levels. its crazy

That's all Obama's fault. huh?

 

[Gary Coal Man]

He is decidedly different than Trump, though.  He is thoughtful and reserved and much less rapey.  

Always a positive quality in a politician.

 

[rockaction]

I would attribute the "divided" country almost entirely to the fractured media landscape rather than anything any single politician has done.  When everyone was getting their information from Walter Cronkite there were still divisions, but not really different realities like there are now.

I agree with you that it wasn’t Clinton that ushered it in per se, but that it just happened when he was there. It was coming since about 72. And I agree that our media landscape doesn’t help out.

 

[Stealthycat]

But why do we have identity politics in the first place? It’s not something that arrived out of thin air. It’s come about due to bigotry. 

i·den·ti·ty pol·i·tics

noun

a tendency for people of a particular religion, race, social background, etc., to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics.

Geographically in 2016 ... what % of the US voted Trump vs Hillary ? maybe those big city hot spots are what needs addressed ? what % of black people voted Hillary vs Trump? Hispanic? talk about exclusive political alliance !

https://brilliantmaps.com/2016-county-election-map/

 

[Jayrod]

I would attribute the "divided" country almost entirely to the fractured media landscape rather than anything any single politician has done.  When everyone was getting their information from Walter Cronkite there were still divisions, but not really different realities like there are now.

There were also a lot more clandestine things going on in the background the public knew nothing about.

I think we are suffering from being aware more now than ever before.  As the saying goes, ignorance is bliss.

 

[Stealthycat]

That's all Obama's fault. huh?

not exact fault - but it happened under his administration more so than the 20 years before him absolutely and there was nothing done in 8 years to stop the fracturing

and it aint being done now either

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

you don't remember the spawning of BLM and ANTIFA ? Occupy Wallstreet? the hatred towards rich? the muslims/Chrisitian hating? the hating on police/Dallas police murders etc? 

its been bad - think of all the division that occurred during those 8 Obama years on many many levels. its crazy

This feels like a confirmation of my hypothesis.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I would attribute the "divided" country almost entirely to the fractured media landscape rather than anything any single politician has done.  When everyone was getting their information from Walter Cronkite there were still divisions, but not really different realities like there are now.

So it starts with the ending of the "fairness doctrine" in '87?   

 

[Encumbrance]

The phenomenon Jayrod speaks about was loosely addressed in Guarding Life's Secrets by Kaplan. I read it in school. Interesting book. The Victorian Compromise was when we traded privacy for indecency so as not to influence public behavior by our problems with our armor (or amour). 

 

[Hawkeye21]

not exact fault - but it happened under his administration more so than the 20 years before him absolutely and there was nothing done in 8 years to stop the fracturing

and it aint being done now either

It's getting even worse under Trump so I'm assuming you will hold him just as accountable then.

 

[OrtonToOlsen]

Wait...The Bell Curve, STILL?

 

[Encumbrance]

Wait...The Bell Curve, STILL?

Yes. People have often pulled him aside and said that aside from the chapter on race it's one of the more prescient books of the era for a policy/predictive book. He insists he never would have written about race if he knew the fallout and what it meant for the book.  

 

[Encumbrance]

That book will always be really misunderstood, apparently. That must be frustrating for the author. Oh well. Like I said, I'm not going to discuss race and IQ in regard to any "divide" at hand for this topic.  

 

[OrtonToOlsen]

Yes. People have often pulled him aside and said that aside from the chapter on race it's one of the more prescient books of the era for a policy/predictive book. He insists he never would have written about race if he knew the fallout and what it meant for the book.  

So you’re going to defend a book all about data and statistics with a hollow anecdote?

 

[Encumbrance]

So you’re going to defend a book all about data and statistics with a hollow anecdote?

Anecdotes all we got.  

 

[OrtonToOlsen]

That book will always be really misunderstood, apparently. That must be frustrating for the author. Oh well. Like I said, I'm not going to discuss race and IQ in regard to any "divide" at hand for this topic.  

Feel free to check out the multiple criticisms of The Bell Curve that have nothing to do with race.

 

[Encumbrance]

Plus, the continued estimation of his colleagues. 

These are all evidentiary things that go towards proving the truth of the matter, but not definitively solving it. Great book, prescient book, revolutionized understanding in the '90s of what was to go on later that decade and into the aughts.  

 

[Encumbrance]

Feel free to check out the multiple criticisms of The Bell Curve that have nothing to do with race.

They're generally not right. I have.  

 

[Encumbrance]

I know the visceral reaction to the book. I'm aware of it. I actually lost friends over having the book in my presence, actually. I don't want to go through anything but the basic thesis of heritable IQ, a cognitive divide, and what flows thenceforth, minus race. That's all I'm adding to the general discussion. A consideration of that possibility. This isn't the Bell Curve thread.  

 

[Encumbrance]

Also, I've pretty much said my piece. I must be going. 

Rock? Got it? 

 

[rockaction]

Word, En. 

 

[rockaction]

He/she is kind of right. The most intractable problem we'll face in any divide is the heritable and cognitive one. At least, IMHO. So many things are determined by it. Education, experience, work, family, everything begins with perception and understanding. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Omar seems wildly out of place on this list.

I agree with tim on Omar.  The clip floating around where she gets all worked up over being asked a question about female genital mutilation sealed it for me.

Edit to add a link to what I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxaBrLbpW7A

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I would attribute the "divided" country almost entirely to the fractured media landscape rather than anything any single politician has done.  When everyone was getting their information from Walter Cronkite there were still divisions, but not really different realities like there are now.

Long, but worth a read:

http://paulgraham.com/re.html

 

[OrtonToOlsen]

They're generally not right. I have.  

OK

 

[roadkill1292]

Long, but worth a read:

http://paulgraham.com/re.html

Good piece. Here's the concluding graph, which is almost exactly what I was thinking as I was reading it.

I worry that if we don't acknowledge this, we're headed for trouble. If we think 20th century cohesion disappeared because of few policy tweaks, we'll be deluded into thinking we can get it back (minus the bad parts, somehow) with a few countertweaks. And then we'll waste our time trying to eliminate fragmentation, when we'd be better off thinking about how to mitigate its consequences.

We can't all group around the same ideals any more. We have the difficult task ahead of us of managing history's most diverse economy with one of the most diverse populaces. And do it while we're saddled with an 18th century electoral system ill equipped to help us keep up.

 

[OrtonToOlsen]

Yeah, but he was born in Arkansas and was raised in small town Missouri.

Having the intelligence to excel academically doesn’t mean you came from the elite class nor share interests with it.

This guy’s pedigree sounds similar to Bill Clinton’s.

Would you call Bill “elite”?  

 

[rockaction]

Bill wasn't born elite, that's for sure. 

 

[Gary Coal Man]

I agree with tim on Omar.  The clip floating around where she gets all worked up over being asked a question about female genital mutilation sealed it for me.

Edit to add a link to what I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxaBrLbpW7A

Trump is repulsed by Omar & AOC as Omar & AOC are repulsed by Trump, but they all share a character flaw — they’re so thin-skinned and defensive that they lash out at people for benign, legitimate questions.

 

[rockaction]

Trump is repulsed by Omar & AOC as Omar & AOC are repulsed by Trump, but they all share a character flaw — they’re so thin-skinned and defensive that they lash out at people for benign, legitimate questions.

I actually thought their little sandbox dust-up last week was one of the lowest points in my life for the Republic, so that really says something about the relative nature of evil in our world. 

 

[Gary Coal Man]

This guy’s pedigree sounds similar to Bill Clinton’s.

Would you call Bill “elite”?  

Bill was accepted into the elite class only when he became President of the United States.  Same for Obama who was also not born to the elite class.

Hawley has a way to go.

 

[Jayrod]

Long, but worth a read:

http://paulgraham.com/re.html

Good article.

It makes our current world appear a little less intentional more inevitable.

 

[timschochet]

Trump is repulsed by Omar & AOC as Omar & AOC are repulsed by Trump, but they all share a character flaw — they’re so thin-skinned and defensive that they lash out at people for benign, legitimate questions.

I won’t include AOC because she can be thoughtful at times. And she reads. 

 

[Herb]

So it starts with the ending of the "fairness doctrine" in '87?   

I have seen no evidence over the last 30 years to dissuade me from the notion that the rise of Limbaugh and Fox news, among many other conservative media news outlets, pundits and talking heads, are the biggest reasons behind the divide we currently see politically. 

It's funny how we were blissfully ignorant of the scourge of liberal media until these good folks pointed it out to us. And proceeded to reap billions in profits. What altruism!