But that's the point: according to EvilGrin (who seems to be more knowledgeable than I about the Steelers' offer/how they work), they were going to give Bell the money anyway (b/c they don't cut players with more than 2 years left on their deal & that money would have all been paid out before that). So, if they'd made that money guaranteed (they were going to pay it out anyway), they'd have Bell under a long-term contract now, presumably. But because that's not how they do business, (even though the $$ they paid out would have been the same) he will be a FA next year. That doesn't make sense, IMO.
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The ***OFFICIAL*** 2018 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Evilgrin 72
- Start date
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I thought EG pointed out very clearly why they didn't fully guarantee more than 1 year out.
brewer
Footballguy
The Steelers made the offer they were comfortable making. Bell decided it wasn't to his liking. The Steelers are comfortable letting Bell walk rather than guarantee him more money. Bell will likely get a bit more money on the open market than he would have gotten from the Steelers.
We like to view sports as our entertainment especially when it comes to the fantasy side of things, but it is in fact still a business. Each side made their decision based upon their projections and such. Time will tell who made the better decision(but in all honesty, it might be that they both made the best decision).
We like to view sports as our entertainment especially when it comes to the fantasy side of things, but it is in fact still a business. Each side made their decision based upon their projections and such. Time will tell who made the better decision(but in all honesty, it might be that they both made the best decision).
Evilgrin72
Footballguy
The Steelers don't guarantee salary. FTR, the Rams didn't either, only the years on Gurley's rookie deal are guaranteed as per the CBA. "Guaranteed money" is paid as signing/roster bonuses. Unless I'm mistaken, no one really gets fully guaranteed salaries outside of QBs, and even those deals are rare (Cousins.)
If they gave Bell $45M fully guaranteed over 5 years, he'd essentially be uncuttable until after year 4 at best. It's a cap-clogging contract and was never going to happen, especially at a position that NFL teams deem, correctly or otherwise, a non-premium position from a $ standpoint. Add to the fact that Bell is 26 and already has ~2,000 touches, has had two season-ending injuries, been suspended twice for drugs, etc.. and it was unrealistic to think they'd offer him anything approaching that. The bottom line is that he would have made roughly $49M over the next 3 seasons and then either played out the last two years of the deal for $13M per or been cut and hit free agency again at age 29. Bell had the option to take that deal and stay in Pittsburgh or roll the dice that he'd get more $ sewn up on the open market next off-season. He bet on himself. Was it a good bet? Only time will tell.
irish eyes
Footballguy
Are you related to Bell? Lol, You seem awfully concerned he didnt get a contract. Everyone seems quite happy the Steelers didnt screw themselves by giving him a contract they would live to regret.
I don't have the specific breakdown of the offer Bell refused. I can't find it anywhere; so I've been using the numbers put out there that haven't been refuted: 5 years, $70M, $10M guaranteed, $33M in rolling guarantees over the first 2 years, $45M in rolling guarantees over the first 3.
His salary for the first 2 years couldn't total more than $23M (if the rolling guarantees of the first 2 years=$33M & the signing bonus was $10M). In that case, it really depends on how the salary structure is divided for the the first 2 years. If year one's salary wasn't much more than $4.5M, Bell doesn't gain much. He was already guaranteed $14.5M when he signs the franchise tender (and he'd be obligated to report to TC on time). Using Spotrac, most of the Steelers long-term contracts (Brown, Roethlisberger, Pouncey, Heyward, Villanueva, etc) have really low first-year salaries ($1M-$3M range). Assuming this to be the case in the Bell contract offer, it stands to reason that the Steelers total 1st-year pay out to Bell wouldn't have been above the $14.5M number (and possibly below it). That means that they could have cut him prior to the 2019 season (whatever date the rolling guarantees kicked in) & only been on the hook for the 2nd half of the $10M signing bonus. Bell would have earned less (possibly the same) as he'll make this year on the franchise tag. Good deal for the Steelers, not so much for Bell.
Gurley's contract, however is different. If he is cut prior to the 2019 season, LA takes a cap hit of $16.8M, and Gurley makes almost $22M for 1 year (2018). That won't happen. His rolling guarantee for year two is virtually a lock. His 3rd year rolling guarantee is pretty safe, as well, but not nearly as much as year two.
I get why the Steelers offered what they offered, it made sense for them.
I get why Bell turned it down, it didn't make sense for him.
irish eyes
Footballguy
Some team will be dumb enough to blow their cap on him next year & eventually regret it. He will either get hurt, suspended or go to an offense that doesn't suit his skill set. I'll be happy to have him this year & hope he has the season of a lifetime
Yes, he did, but that reason is all for the benefit of the team. By only guaranteeing 1 year, the Steelers have more cap flexibility, and they want Bell to trust that they will stick to their other "rule:" that they don't cut players with more than 2 years remaining. However, if you are Bell, do you trust that? NFL RBs don't last forever, and he hasn't made much money (till last year). I don't know how responsible he is with his cash, but do you trust your career on a promise that the team won't put in writing?
Godsbrother
Footballguy
The NFL doesn't do fully guaranteed deals, that is the system. I get it, you get it, Bell gets it, etc. This is offset by larger signing bonuses. Players like getting that huge chunk of cash up front, then they complain about their salary later (Julio Jones being a recent example).
The Steelers, however, offered him a tiny signing bonus.
When you put those two things together, it's hard to argue why Bell SHOULD have taken the Steelers offer.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
We don't really know what the offer was or what else may have been discussed during the negotiation. Bell is betting on himself staying healthy, out of trouble, and having a great season. I am hoping that works out for him. If it doesn't then he probably should have taken the deal.
While that's true, neither side has disputed the reports that only $10M was guaranteed. When the signing bonus is less than what he will make under the franchise tag, I think describing it as tiny isn't inaccurate.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
The Steelers are very closed lipped about contract talks. They won't confirm or deny any reports until they come to an agreement and must disclose the terms of the contract.
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Then we have to go on the information we have that's been reported; i.e.-that they only offered him a signing bonus of $10M
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Steeler
Footballguy
The information we have is that both side couldn't reach a deal, that Bell will play for the Steelers this year, and that he will be a free agent next year. I don't get why we have to keep discussing the minutia of the deal especially since we don't have all the details - who cares at this point?
Steeler
Footballguy
Evilgrin72
Footballguy
A lot of the existing 1st year salaries you reference are low because they needed to structure the deals that way to get under the cap. Bell has a $14+M cap hold right now, so the need to reduce that 1st year salary wouldn't have been there. Also, many of those deals have been restructured, converting salary to bonus, so I'm not sure how that's represented. In any event, we don't know and likely never will. The bolded portion, IMO, is really what it boils down to.
The Gurley contract, I know a lot of people (including myself) have pointed to, but it isn't really apples to apples. The Rams have a QB on a rookie deal right now, so they can afford to back the Brinks truck up for some of these guys until Goff gets re-signed/extended. They're also paying for Gurley through age 30 with the extension, or age 28 after three years if they cut him then. These are prime RB years - the same deal for Bell would have made him virtually uncuttable into his 30s. That's a big difference.
Agreed. Not apples to apples. But the fact remains that after this season, Bell will be a FA, and the contracts given to Barkley and Gurley are going to impact the deal he is looking for.
Evilgrin72
Footballguy
Barkley is a slot deal, so I believe that to be irrelevant. Gurley's deal will be relevant, though. It all boils down to what teams are willing to offer huge money to a 27-year old Bell. No way to know that now, but it only takes 1 team to throw a boatload of money at him.
steelers1080
Footballguy
Ok, cool. Bell's contract won't change until after the season. Can we move on to other topics?
For example, I'm worried the Steelers start the season 3-3. I think we win the Browns game, partially lucky that we're playing them week 1. Their team has a lot of new faces and they probably won't be fully meshed until later in the season, and we should be able to win if Bell isn't too rusty/knows the playbook well.
Then we play the Chiefs, Bucs, Ravens, Falcons, and Bengals. That's 2 more division games, 1 game against a tough NFC team, 1 game against a tough but unpredictable AFC team, and 1 trap game. The Bucs will be without Jameis, but it has shades of the Bears last year. I could easily see us falling to them, and see us losing to a frenetic Mahomes.
Talent-wise I think we should go 6-0 to start the season, but I'm naturally a pessimist when it comes to sports so the defense concerns me, specifically the ILB position, and while we have tons of offensive talent it will be a new coordinator so it could take a bit to work out the kinks.
For example, I'm worried the Steelers start the season 3-3. I think we win the Browns game, partially lucky that we're playing them week 1. Their team has a lot of new faces and they probably won't be fully meshed until later in the season, and we should be able to win if Bell isn't too rusty/knows the playbook well.
Then we play the Chiefs, Bucs, Ravens, Falcons, and Bengals. That's 2 more division games, 1 game against a tough NFC team, 1 game against a tough but unpredictable AFC team, and 1 trap game. The Bucs will be without Jameis, but it has shades of the Bears last year. I could easily see us falling to them, and see us losing to a frenetic Mahomes.
Talent-wise I think we should go 6-0 to start the season, but I'm naturally a pessimist when it comes to sports so the defense concerns me, specifically the ILB position, and while we have tons of offensive talent it will be a new coordinator so it could take a bit to work out the kinks.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
And that's why it's either inaccurate or shoddy reporting. It's absolutely illogical for PIT to make that as the exact offer. It's far more likely that was "$10M new guaranteed money" or "$10M salary guaranteed after the initial signing/roster bonuses of $___ million or some other type of $10M". Of course he's not going to sign a contract for less than what he's already guaranteed, and the team isn't going to even offer that.Bayhawks said:
What either side has disputed is irrelevant. PIT has too much class to discuss finances publicly and Bell has nothing to gain by doing so.
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But he didn’t sign the contract; So it’s possible that is WHY he didn’t sign it.
If it was “$10M in new money,” there’d probably be a report correcting that. After all, the inaccurate report about +$30M WAS corrected.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
It's also possible he didn't sign it because it was only $10M new guarantees and that wasn't enough. Or a $25M signing bonus and $10M guaranteed in salary but it wasn't enough. Or $10M guaranteed salary in each season but that wasn't enough. Or $10M floating roster bonus guaranteed every March 1st but that wasn't enough. There are dozens of ways to "guarantee $10M". But it's baseless speculation that that's all the money he was going to get with the information we have. And with as illogical as it would be to offer him a contract that guarantees him less than he's already guaranteed by the FT offer I can't believe anyone actually buys that that was PIT's actual offer.
He hasn’t signed his franchise offer, so ANY guaranteed money would be “new” guarantees, so the possibility that it was $10M on top of the franchise salary is out.
A $25M signing bonus would be guaranteed, so that possibility is ruled out.
$10M guaranteed in each season=$50M guaranteed, so that possibility is ruled out (plus, we’ve learned in this thread that that isn’t how the Steelers structure contracts)
$10M floating roster bonus isn’t really guaranteed; that would be the “rolling”guarantee structure that has been reported. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s been reported Pitt only offered $10M truly guaranteed.
You’re trying to come up with complicated explanations, but usually the simplest answer is the correct one: Pitt offered him only $10M in guarantees, with the rolling guarantees in years 2/3. They were hoping it would be enough, but as you previously posted upthread, why would Bell take that. So he didn’t, because it was much better for the he team than for him.
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brewer
Footballguy
The wild speculation in here is laughable. If you really think the Steelers offered a contract with less guaranteed money than he would get by just playing this year under the tag, I think you are just fishing at this point. If the Steelers had a an offer that low, Bell's team would have leaked it immediately and he wouldn't have been saying things like, "we are closer than we were last year", "I think we will get a deal done".
Wild speculation=what has been reported and not refuted by either side?
I don’t think that phrase means what you think it means.
Steeler
Footballguy
Seriously, can we end this back and forth about the contract? It doesn't matter at all because he can't sign the offer not matter what it was -- that ship has sailed. Bell will play for the Steelers this year and be a free agent next year. Why can't we just leave it at that?
brewer
Footballguy
I agree with Steeler here so this will be my last post on the topic. But Bayhawks, if you fully believe all of the reports that are out there and believe that the Steelers would pay a 10M signing bonus to Bell right now, what exactly do you believe that his salary number would be for this year? Because the only way he would get less than the Franchise tag would be if his Bonus + Salary for 2018 < Franchise tag. So his salary for this year would have to come in at less than like 4.5M. And follow with me now, the contract was reported to have 33M in the first two years.... so to take it one step further, you would then have me believe that the salary number for the second year of a 5 year deal averaging $15 per would be > 28M. I'm sorry, but I simply don't buy that.
Covered upthread, but the contract was reported to be worth $33M over the first two years, if the rolling guarantees kicked in. The $10M guaranteed would likely have been the signing bonus, leaving $23 million over the next two years. If there was a second year roster bonus (which Colbert has been putting in many of the recent Steeler contracts) of $5M that kicks in on the 5th day of the 2019 league year (or some such similar date), that leaves $18M between salary for year 1 and year 2. (if there was a larger/smaller/no roster bonus, that changes the salary amount to get to that $33M). Let's just assume it was an even split, so $9M in 2018, and $9M in 2019.
That gives Bell $19M in 2018, only $4.5M more than he'll make under the tag; AND he doesn't get much security at all. As pointed out by another poster (EvilGrin, I think), the Steelers likely structured their offer in such a way so that if/when Roethlisberger retires, they can cut bait with Bell to save money on a RB without that franchise QB that can lead them to a SB.
So, if you're Bell, why do you sign a deal that doesn't give you much of a raise (not as much as you could get on the FA market, which he'll now be able to test next year) without getting the security that NFL players (especially RBs) are rarely given the shot at? You don't, which could explain why he didn't sign the deal.
Again, the roster bonus, and salaries for year 1/year 2 are guesses. The only thing we know is that the Steelers only offered $10M in fully guaranteed money. Since the Steelers are up against the cap this year (less than $3M in cap space, I believe), they couldn't have gone much over the $14.5M franchise number in what they paid out to Bell in 2018. $2M of the bonus would apply to each year of the 5 year contract, I believe, so that leaves a max of $15.5 in actual 2018 salary they could pay Bell. And IF they paid the $15.5, they'd have NO cap room, unless they restructured/changed other contracts (cap info from spotrac).
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$10M is the guaranteed money. There's no selling needed, that's a fact that has been reported and is not disputed. The $19M was a guess, based on unknowns (is there a roster bonus in year 2, size of roster bonus in year 2, etc). As I also posted, it would have been tough/impossible for the Steelers to actually have $19M for Bell count toward the cap in 2018, so it makes sense for the 2018 salary to have been smaller, to fit under the cap. For example, AB is getting paid over $4M this year, but his salary is $915K. Next year, his base salary jumps to $12.6M. The Steelers would likely have had to do some creative structuring of Bell's contract to get them under the cap this year, and likely next (Ben still under contract in 2019). It's reasonable to assume that the early year salaries are low, while they balloon in the later years (which Bell would have never received, most likely).
Steelers offered Bell a contract that was in their best interest, and that was not good for Bell. Pretending otherwise doesn't pass the smell test.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Sounds like Ramon Foster just went down in camp with what may be a significant knee injury... Carted off.
https://twitter.com/TimotRice/status/1023300454640508928
https://twitter.com/TimotRice/status/1023300454640508928
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Schefter reporting the Foster injury not thought to be serious at this point. Still could change.
Evilgrin72
Footballguy
irish eyes
Footballguy
Please I don't want to see another season lost because of injuries. This is the season to win it all
Godsbrother
Footballguy
steelers1080
Footballguy
I think Finney could be the starter next year, but losing that depth in Training Camp is killer. It seems like the only positions we have depth at now are in our Secondary, which is odd to say.
JoeSteeler
Footballguy
cloppbeast
Footballguy
What is a DB supposed to do?
As good as AB is, he wouldn't put up as good of stats with any QB other than Ben. If AB has even the smallest window, Ben doesn't feel the need to look anywhere else.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Just heard a report that Finney is out with an elbow injury.
Vance MacDonald also hurt but when isn't he?
Update: Overreaction -- Finney is back in practice...
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Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
2017 Vikings preseason darling TE Bucky Hodges signed today, TE Ryan Melleck waived.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Page 9?!?!?
Looking forward to seeing the rooks tonight on both sides of the ball. Especially Jaylen Samuels
Here we go!!
Looking forward to seeing the rooks tonight on both sides of the ball. Especially Jaylen Samuels
Here we go!!
steelers1080
Footballguy
Tonight it would be nice to see our Secondary play well, and see what Mason can do. Also, just hoping the whole team is healthy come Friday.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Health is the #1 concern of course. Definitely interested in seeing the QBs -- hopefully the o-line that play tonight give them enough time to evaluate.steelers1080 said:
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Godsbrother
Footballguy
It was an unusual Steelers preseason game in that the offense scored a lot of points. Conner looked really good just as he did last season in limited carries. The guy is definitely talented, the only question is can he stay healthy?
JuJu looks like he is just going to continue where he left off last season. Washington and Patterson also had some nice catches. The TEs were nowhere to be seen aside from a short gain by Jesse James. It looks like the bubble screen play is still in the playbook and was as inefficient as it usually is.
The defense still had some problems tackling, giving up several big plays -- it kinda felt like last season. A couple of interceptions bailed them out. Ola Adeniyi had a nice strip sack that led to another turnover. He was wearing 92 and looked like James Harrison on that play.
Overall not a bad effort and was about as enjoyable as a first preseason game can be. I have my fingers crossed that BJ Finney's injury is not serious...
JuJu looks like he is just going to continue where he left off last season. Washington and Patterson also had some nice catches. The TEs were nowhere to be seen aside from a short gain by Jesse James. It looks like the bubble screen play is still in the playbook and was as inefficient as it usually is.
The defense still had some problems tackling, giving up several big plays -- it kinda felt like last season. A couple of interceptions bailed them out. Ola Adeniyi had a nice strip sack that led to another turnover. He was wearing 92 and looked like James Harrison on that play.
Overall not a bad effort and was about as enjoyable as a first preseason game can be. I have my fingers crossed that BJ Finney's injury is not serious...
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