What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

The Tea Party is back in business! (1 Viewer)

Obamacare and funding Obamacare are both existing law. The Republicans couldn't stop the legislative process then, and they know they can't pass a law defunding it now.

Anyone saying something else is just getting some face-time on TV so the yokels will remember their name come election time.

 
As for shutting down government entirely to 'defund' Obamacare... Oh noes! Please don't throw me in the briar patch mean Republicans! Anything but that!

 
You guys are trying to pretend that Cruz is doing something reasonable here, as if it's just another partisan debate and both sides are equally guilty of hyperbolic rhetoric, and there's some right to both sides. It's not the case.

Let's review: Cruz and Lee are threatening to shut down the government unless Obama agrees to defund Obamacare. This is not ambiguous. It's not subject to negotiation. To expect Obama to agree is absurd. To argue that this is a reasonable position is absurd. It's exactly the sort of irrationality which defines the Tea Party.

 
timschochet said:
Politician Spock said:
timschochet said:
jon_mx said:
Good to see the leftwing has found a good spot for their circle jerk. :thumbup:
Click to expand...
Do you believe Senator Cruz' logic is sound? Do you think if the government is shut down, it will be Obama's fault?
Click to expand...
Given congress is just one big game of Euchre, table talk is the best strategy Cruz has to win given the cards he holds. Some of the best table talk occurs regarding whether or not the dealer should "pick it up". It's rarely logical, but part of the game.
Click to expand...
Do you believe that threatening to shut down the government over Obamacare funding is good card playing?
Click to expand...
Depends on how you define good.

If good is defined as appreciating someone playing within the rules of the game, then yes it's good card playing.

If good is defined as appreciating the rules of the game, then no, I don't think it's good at all.

Originally the game was setup so that the voice of the people was heard. Now it's a game where only the voice of the rich is heard. It's a plutocracy. I don't know exactly who's voice Cruz is speaking for, but if I ha to guess, it's the Koch brothers.

 
Remember in the early/mid 70s when you turned the TV on and you saw some stoned out 35 year old talking about "The Man", there were huge fights about school busing, and moderate Dems couldn't win elections because they weren't anti-establishment enough for the primaries or were too radical for the general?

It's just what happens when your movement wins most of the fights that it coalesced around, the energy is gone and the mostly apathetic 10% in the middle of the political spectrum aren't interested in your schtick anymore.

 
Saw maybe 4 people protesting obamacare on a streetcorner coming into work today. Got a picture too. Pretty funny/sad at the same time.

 
Who’s afraid of a government shutdown? Not Texas Republican Sen. Ted Cruz.

“There are some Democrats, some in the media and some Republicans who portray a shutdown as a horrible calamity. I think the term ‘shutdown’ is a misnomer,” Cruz said Tuesday during a luncheon with conservative activists and bloggers at the Heritage Foundation. “It’s actually a partial, temporary shutdown. We have seen them before.”

These “partial, temporary” shutdowns, Cruz argued, happen “every single week on the weekend. Saturdays and Sundays we see temporary partial government shutdowns, and the world doesn’t end.”

A shutdown could even help conservative causes, Cruz added, pointing to balanced federal budgets that occurred after two shutdowns under former President Bill Clinton in the 1990s.

So, no big deal, right? Three cheers for shutdowns! Well, not everyone would agree, and that includes plenty of Republicans.

“We’ve been down that road,” Georgia Republican Sen. Saxby Chambliss said on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” Friday. “We got our butts kicked over shutting down the government.”

The reason Cruz is dropping the S-H-word in polite company is because he’s part of an effort in the Senate to refuse support for any government-spending bill that includes funding for the Affordable Care Act. (In order to avoid a shutdown, both chambers of Congress must agree to a spending bill within the next two months, before the previous spending bill expires.) Three conservative Republican senators — Cruz, Marco Rubio of Florida and Mike Lee of Utah — are urging members of the party to sign on to their ultimatum.

They seem to have the conservative base on their side. In July, Cruz introduced a bill to defund the health insurance law that has co-sponsorships from dozens of Republican senators, including Mitch ­­McConnell, the top Republican in the chamber. Earlier this week, several right-wing groups and prominent conservativessigned on to a letter showing support for Cruz’s cause.

But support from the usual suspects and a vote on a bill that will almost surely fail in the Democrat-led Senate won’t be enough to actually defund the health law. For the plan to work, Cruz needs Republicans to risk shutting down the government by not voting on the final spending bill, and he’s not finding enough takers.

“There are an awful lot of politicians in Washington who love empty, symbolic votes. It’s been one of my biggest surprises in the Senate,” Cruz said at Heritage. “A lot of Republicans are nervous about this. They’re nervous about being blamed for a government shutdown.”

For those Republicans who do support his bill but then go on to vote for a spending bill that funds the health law, Cruz has a message: “Any elected official who casts a vote for this continuing resolution that funds Obamacare is affirmatively voting to fund Obamacare,” he said.

The remark will no doubt enrage plenty of Republicans who consider it more important to keep the government running than to die on the hill called Obamacare.

Republicans who vote for Cruz's bill but then go on to vote for the final spending bill after Cruz's bill fails would be making a calculated decision. They know that the Democrat-led Senate would not defund President Barack Obama’s most prominent legislative achievement. And even if the Cruz bill passed, they could be assured that Obama would not just roll over and sign it. It is perhaps because of that reality that Cruz is struggling to find 41 Republicans in the Senate or 218 in the House to join him in his quest.

But by remaining stalwart, Cruz and those who join him will always be able to set themselves apart from the rest of the gang in Washington and say that they have never voted to fund Obamacare.

 
Its not like obama unilaterally decided not to enforce obamacare as it is written. Oh wait...

If the executive can just pick and choose the parts of laws it wants to enforce then i dont see why the legislative is under any set of rules either. If they vote to defund it, so be it. Its the worst law of our lifetime

 
The folks at TalkingPointsMemo.com have been saying this for a few weeks now, and I think they're right:

The Tea Party challenge to McConnell could pit the Tea Party not just against the GOP but against the U.S. economy. For all McConnell's faults from a liberal POV, he's actually been pretty pragmatic in terms of cutting his losses and doing a deal when the time came. But the combination of a well-funded Tea Party primary challenger and a potentially strong Democratic opponent in the general means that politically McConnell may not be able to cut any deals this Fall as the budget and debt limit issues roll around again.

I realize that everyone just assumes that nothing bad will happen since we've seen this play out a few times already and have managed not to blow things up. But Play with fire enough times and sooner or later you do get burned.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The Commish said:
badmojo1006 said:
Boehner wants another Debt Ceiling fight :wall:
Click to expand...
Not surprised are we? In his defense, it's REALLY stupid that we have to keep increasing our debt ceiling...this SHOULD be evidence to everyone that our government really doesn't care about our debt.
Click to expand...
The debt could shrink in real terms, but the debt ceiling would still have to be raised over and over since it's in nominal dollars.

Congress should either stop authorizing the spending, or get rid of the need to vote on the debt limit. Spending the money and then threatening not to recognize the debt isn't really very helpful.

 
wdcrob said:
The Commish said:
badmojo1006 said:
Boehner wants another Debt Ceiling fight :wall:
Click to expand...
Not surprised are we? In his defense, it's REALLY stupid that we have to keep increasing our debt ceiling...this SHOULD be evidence to everyone that our government really doesn't care about our debt.
Click to expand...
The debt could shrink in real terms, but the debt ceiling would still have to be raised over and over since it's in nominal dollars.

Congress should either stop authorizing the spending, or get rid of the need to vote on the debt limit. Spending the money and then threatening not to recognize the debt isn't really very helpful.
Click to expand...
This was my point over anything else. It's stupid but it does chum the waters for the :hophead: creating just enough diversion to maintain the SSDD lifestyle of Washington.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
badmojo1006 said:
Jim DeMint: Providing Health Care For Seniors And Veterans Is ‘Un-American’ And Grounded In ‘Socialism’

This just boggles my mind that he can be that heartless
Click to expand...
Seems like ThinkProgress was putting words in his mouth there.
Click to expand...
Yes, the author leaped to a conclusion that DeMint wasn't necessarily making. Though his statements about government run health care clearly illustrates the country's divide on this important issue.

 
Interesting article. Not sure this is the right place for it, but some random highlights-

Over the years in which I enjoyed a warm friendship with Jude no factor perplexed me more than what I considered the rejection of one-third of his philosophy – the idea that that masses of individuals, regardless of their creed, class or color were generally speaking, wiser than any particular leader on any particular question.

Pretty much asserting an idea that Maurile has posted many times over the years and runs counter to those that think we should be lead by "elites".

Wanniski understood that the mass appeal enjoyed by a popular leader was more often the result of that leader’s effective embodiment of mass sentiment or sensitivity to it than it was evidence of sinister demagoguery. Leading conservatives though, intoxicated by the power of their ideas soon became aristocrats, dismissing this maxim from Chapter 1 of Jude’s The Way The World Works, “The chief problem in the political process is not the communication of the candidates’ views and personalities to the electorate, but the communication of the electorate’s interests to the candidates.”

While it has long been clear that the most intelligent candidate isn't necessarily the best candidate, the below is a new idea to me. One that almost seems obvious now.

The root of Reagan’s magnetism did not come from the power of his conservative ideas, it came from his appreciation of the mass audience. Jude noted this, writing, “Throughout his political career, Governor Reagan was frequently scorned as a mere ‘movie actor,’ but the one ingredient of his earlier career that he successfully carried over into politics was this sensitivity to audiences. The successful actor, comedian, and vaudevillian constantly strives to find what it is that audiences want and then attempts to give it to them.”

In mocking President Reagan as an ‘empty vessel’ or ‘puppet’ and the same for President George W. Bush, Democrats made a critical mistake, embodying much of the same spirit found in Limbaugh’s expression of LIV – they did not realize that a person who is affable and open-minded in personality is one the electorate may perceive it can influence, much more than a ‘smarter’ candidate. ‘Ignorant’ people can make the right decision for reasons that have nothing to do with technical issues.

Interesting thought in a Tea Party thread-

The scenario envisioned by Jude was a political party that had room to listen to the core concerns of the supporters of four leaders: Ross Perot, Pat Buchanan, Jack Kemp and Min. Farrakhan. But the knee-jerk reaction of most establishmentarians to this proposal ...

Didn't know this-

... no Republican candidate has ever been elected President who did not win 10% of the Black vote ...

Is this an accurate description of Tea Partiers? The GOP?

To me, the legitimate aspects of the worldview of Conservatism are now drown out by a seeming need to always look for a fight. And the accurate portrayal of the limits of Liberalism has now morphed into Liberal-determinism where every evil – in the minds of so many Conservatives – is due to Big Government. Yet, these same persons diminish a similar outsourcing of all evil to Racism, Sexism or Classism in the minds of those on the Left. A defining ideology with historically relevant explanatory power has been reduced to a whining one.

Sorry Timmy-

The inability of the establishment Right to listen to more populism, more libertarianism, more nationalism, more entrepreneurship, and more non-White perspectives is the greatest threat to the GOP, not the growth in the number of ignorant voters or the influence of Liberal ideology

The column ends with hope for the GOP thanks to George Zimmerman and Detroit. Interesting.

 
House Republican leaders announced Wednesday morning that they would take a risky double-barreled attack on President Obama’s health-care law, making it the cornerstone fight over government funding due to expire Sept. 30 and the effort to lift the Treasury’s borrowing authority.Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio), flanked by his leadership team, told reporters that the stopgap government funding bill that they will advance Friday would yield to conservative demands of including a rider to block funding for the law commonly known as Obamacare.

In addition, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) laid out his party’s legislative grab bag of requests that will be attached to a bill that would lift the debt ceiling, including a delay of the health law, an overhaul of the tax code and approval of an energy pipeline running from Canada to the gulf coast.
Click to expand...
It's all a show -- the Republicans will never stick to this. But dance on the edge long enough and sometimes accidents happen.

 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-republicans-reject-senate-spending-bill-explore-strategy-to-avoid-shutdown/2013/09/26/7b585a18-26b8-11e3-b75d-5b7f66349852_story.html

It's getting worse and worse and a shutdown appears much more likely. Boehner is attempting to forestall things by offering to have the confrontation take place over the debt ceiling, instead of the shutdown. (The shutdown happens Monday, the debt ceiling needs to be raised by October 17, so this isn't much of a forestall). But he doesn't have the votes. The Tea Party hardliners in the House don't want to wait- they refuse to vote for any spending package that has Obamacare in it. They have enough votes to block passage, so it looks like the government will shut down.

Meanwhile, in order to raise the debt ceiling, Boehner is offering a grab bag of Republican items: delay Obamacare for 1 year, approve Keystone, a timetable for tax reform, and other conservative measures. The Dems will never agree to any of this. But it doesn't matter anyhow, since the Tea Party most likely won't even go along with this "compromise"- they are determined this time not to raise the debt ceiling, no matter what.

We appear to be headed for a crisis...

 
Please stop

You need an alias, perhaps, Elizabeth Taylor would be suitable

You have reached Terminal Lameness

 
Last edited by a moderator:
drunken slob said:
Please stop

You need an alias, perhaps, Elizabeth Taylor would be suitable

You have reached Terminal Lameness
Click to expand...
drunken slobFootballguy

  • Members
  • bullet_black.png
  • 158 posts

:lmao:

 
After an exasperated Reid sat down, Republican Sen. Bob Corker of Tennessee took the floor and suggested that the reason Lee and his ally, Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas), wanted to wait until Friday for the votes was because they, along with outside conservative groups, had advertised Friday as the decisive day.

The two wanted a big audience watching their floor speeches, Corker implied, even if that left Republicans in the House little time to respond to the Senate’s vote.

“Is it more important to the senator from Texas and the senator from Utah that the people around the country watch this vote, or is it more important to us that we have a good policy outcome from our standpoint?” he asked.

Making the Friday votes into a “show” for the benefit of conservative interest groups, Corker added, is not “in our nation’s interests – nor is it, candidly, in the interests of those who want to see good policy on the conservative side.”

Cruz responded by questioning why Corker and other Republicans planned to vote to allow the bill to move forward. Currently, the measure would cut off money for Obamacare, but Democrats have the votes to eliminate that part of the bill once procedural hurdles are overcome.

Corker pointed out that the rules of the Senate have been in place for years – suggesting, as Cruz had done a week earlier, that there was little use in blocking the bill further.

“I think the senator from Texas may be confused,” he said at one point.

The back-and-forth was ultimately cut off by a time limit. But a few minutes later, a visibly angry Lee defended himself to reporters just outside the Senate chamber.

“I don’t have the ability to know what’s in another person’s mind. I don’t ever claim the ability to tell anyone else much less the entire world why someone’s doing what they’re doing. So when someone purports to have that ability in respect to why I’m doing something…,” he said, trailing off.

Cruz said it was “unfortunate that any member of the United States Senate should want our votes to occur outside the view of the American people.” He said he and Lee were already offering compromise by speeding up the vote from Saturday to Friday.

“Friday is the appropriate time where the American people can be engaged. And this is not a routine vote,” he said. “This is a vote to determine whether the U.S. Senate is going to give Harry Reid the authority to fund Obamacare. And that is an issue of considerable interest to a great many Americans.”

Democratic leaders who had sat watching as the debate among Republicans unfolded quickly rose to reinforce Corker’s points.

“We’re delaying our actions here for a full day so that [Lee and Cruz] can get adequate publicity for what they’re about to do,” said Sen. Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.). “That’s not in our nation’s interest.”
Click to expand...
:popcorn:

Be sure to give 'em enough rope.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
TPW said:
14 things you don't know about government shutdowns

http://washingtonexaminer.com/14-things-you-dont-know-about-government-shutdowns/article/2536340
Click to expand...
So shutdowns have occurred before and they aren't always the Republicans fault? That's the defense? Did anyone not know this?

How does that justify shutting down the government this time?

I thought this article would at least be something about how the impact isn't so bad. Instead it's a perspective my 8 year old would take when his defense for doing something wrong is that his sister did it too.

 
Who said there's anything I need to defend? I think a shutdown would be a great thing. It would show people that the world carries on without Uncle Sugar holding their hand all the time. Maybe some would acutally reconsider the depth of their dependency.

 
TPW said:
Who said there's anything I need to defend? I think a shutdown would be a great thing. It would show people that the world carries on without Uncle Sugar holding their hand all the time. Maybe some would acutally reconsider the depth of their dependency.
Click to expand...
What exactly was your point in posting the link?

 
wdcrob said:
Obamacare and funding Obamacare are both existing law. The Republicans couldn't stop the legislative process then, and they know they can't pass a law defunding it now.

Anyone saying something else is just getting some face-time on TV so the yokels will remember their name come election time.
Click to expand...
:bowtie:

Welcome aboard, Republican Senators!

 
The Commish said:
TPW said:
Who said there's anything I need to defend? I think a shutdown would be a great thing. It would show people that the world carries on without Uncle Sugar holding their hand all the time. Maybe some would acutally reconsider the depth of their dependency.
Click to expand...
What exactly was your point in posting the link?
Click to expand...
Simply to show that it's happened before and will happen again. Despite the handwringing and howls of impending apocalypse from the left the world did not end. There was also no Tea Party around to act as a convenient foil for the media.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
TPW said:
TobiasFunke said:
TPW said:
14 things you don't know about government shutdowns

http://washingtonexaminer.com/14-things-you-dont-know-about-government-shutdowns/article/2536340
Click to expand...
When I'm looking for accurate, honest, thorough reporting, I always look for journalism by .gif.
Click to expand...
Says the guy who carefully chose a comedic message board icon...
Click to expand...
Wut?

Actual journalism. As you can see there have been 17 shutdowns, but many of them (including all prior to around 1981) were not shutdowns as we think of them now- the government continued to function as normal. This is explained in the second paragraph. In other words, all the Carter shutdowns that are the main talking point of that .gif crap were nothing like what we currently call a shutdown. Every "shutdown" that actually shut down government functions except the Clinton-Gingrich showdowns was 3 days or fewer.

I don't think anyone would argue that a 3 day shutdown would be some kind of disaster. The problem is when it stretches longer than that. Although even that pales in comparison to default due to failure to raise the debt limit, which is the far greater concern.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
TobiasFunke said:
even that pales in comparison to default due to failure to raise the debt limit, which is the far greater concern.
Click to expand...
Which is why the Republican leadership wants to kick the can down the road to the debt default deadline. A debt default would be so severe (or at least so risky) that they know they'll never do it -- so they'll have a lot more leverage to find a way out.

 
TPW said:
The Commish said:
TPW said:
Who said there's anything I need to defend? I think a shutdown would be a great thing. It would show people that the world carries on without Uncle Sugar holding their hand all the time. Maybe some would acutally reconsider the depth of their dependency.
Click to expand...
What exactly was your point in posting the link?
Click to expand...
Simply to show that it's happened before and will happen again. Despite the handwringing and howls of impending apocalypse from the left the world did not end. There was also no Tea Party around to act as a convenient foil for the media.
Click to expand...
Was anyone here challenging that it's never happened before?

ETA: A question...do you believe what we are facing with this next shutdown is on par (magnitude wise) with the shutdowns of the past?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
wdcrob said:
TobiasFunke said:
even that pales in comparison to default due to failure to raise the debt limit, which is the far greater concern.
Click to expand...
Which is why the Republican leadership wants to kick the can down the road to the debt default deadline. A debt default would be so severe (or at least so risky) that they know they'll never do it -- so they'll have a lot more leverage to find a way out.
Click to expand...
Yup, that's exactly right. They know they're in a losing position now, but they take the heat off themselves if they push the debate to one with far greater stakes, so that when they cave on that they are in a better position to defend themselves as having acted in the best interests of the country, etc.

The nutjobs saw right through that; that's why they continue to push confrontation on the CR (even though many/most of Obamacare would remain in place even if the federal government shuts down).

 
The Commish said:
TPW said:
The Commish said:
TPW said:
Who said there's anything I need to defend? I think a shutdown would be a great thing. It would show people that the world carries on without Uncle Sugar holding their hand all the time. Maybe some would acutally reconsider the depth of their dependency.
Click to expand...
What exactly was your point in posting the link?
Click to expand...
Simply to show that it's happened before and will happen again. Despite the handwringing and howls of impending apocalypse from the left the world did not end. There was also no Tea Party around to act as a convenient foil for the media.
Click to expand...
Was anyone here challenging that it's never happened before?
Click to expand...
Some would have you believe that somehow this time it's different and there's plenty of the "woe-is-meing" going on.

 
wdcrob said:
TobiasFunke said:
even that pales in comparison to default due to failure to raise the debt limit, which is the far greater concern.
Click to expand...
Which is why the Republican leadership wants to kick the can down the road to the debt default deadline. A debt default would be so severe (or at least so risky) that they know they'll never do it -- so they'll have a lot more leverage to find a way out.
Click to expand...
It just seems so stupid either way. What is the possible "way out" for the GOP that won't involve total surrender?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Anarchy99
  • Poll
What's Normal: In Your Long-Term M/F Relationship, Which Gender Has a 51% or Greater Stake in Decision-Making?
2
Replies
89
Views
2K
Jayrod
Jayrod
GroveDiesel
The end of Reddit?
2 3 4
Replies
178
Views
5K
mr. furley
mr. furley
fantasycurse42
Your Friend’s Wife Breaks Something in Your House
2
Replies
71
Views
2K
Snoopy
Snoopy

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top