The Tea Party is back in business! (1 Viewer)

[Fennis]

In addition, the House proposal would forbid the Treasury from taking what it calls extraordinary measures to prevent the government from defaulting as cash runs low, in effect requiring hard deadlines to extend the federal debt ceiling

.

Thats just plain stupid.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Washington (CNN) -- [breaking news update 11:15 a.m.]

The White House is rejecting the latest proposal from House Republicans over the fiscal impasse. "The President has said repeatedly that Members of Congress don't get to demand ransom for fulfilling their basic responsibilities to pass a budget and pay the nation's bills," a White House spokeswoman said. Separately, President Barack Obama will meet with House Democrats at the White House on Tuesday afternoon.

Sweet. We're getting closer and closer to touching the stove to see if it's hot.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

In addition, the House proposal would forbid the Treasury from taking what it calls extraordinary measures to prevent the government from defaulting as cash runs low, in effect requiring hard deadlines to extend the federal debt ceiling

.Thats just plain stupid.

It's as if they prefer a default.

 

[timschochet]

In addition, the House proposal would forbid the Treasury from taking what it calls extraordinary measures to prevent the government from defaulting as cash runs low, in effect requiring hard deadlines to extend the federal debt ceiling

.Thats just plain stupid.

It's as if they prefer a default.

Some of them do. Many of them do.

 

[jon_mx]

Everyone is so sure deal will be done that everyone and their grandma is now all-in the stock market with lots of big players using borrowed money, Dow will tank 1000+ if deal is delayed a few days. Maybe that would be a good thing, maybe a few big noses need to get bloodied to start taking the debt seriously.

Classless stupidity here.

The Dow dropping 1000 points would not be the end of the world, Tim. It would be pretty meaningless overall.

Pretty sure they'd step in and close the exchange if that happened anyway. Don't they do that to make sure there are no huge swings in trading?

Stock market dropped 700 points when the TARP vote failed. I would not be surprised to see something worse than that if they can't raise the debt ceiling. Also, dropping that much is a big ####### deal.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/news/economy/bailout/

The stock market dropped a lot more in the weeks after TARP passed. The market has a tendancy to overreact over uncertainty. But ultimately, TARP is what saved our finanancial institutions and is what lead to the stock market bouncing back once the market saw that it was working and banks were reporting much better than expected earnings (or in most cases, their losses were much less than expected).

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Yes, a bi-partisan Senate deal that has the blessing of the President and House Democrats is a 'hand grenade' to House Republicans.

Will be great fun watching people twist themselves into knots explaining how both sides are to blame there's no resolution.

 

[Joe T]

I'm starting a new thread titled:

"Democrats Save the Day: Open Gov't and Raise Debt Ceiling, Crisis Averted"

Hopefully this will preempt the thread title change coming to this thread in the next few days.

 

[Aerial Assault]

Yes, a bi-partisan Senate deal that has the blessing of the President and House Democrats is a 'hand grenade' to House Republicans.

Will be great fun watching people twist themselves into knots explaining how both sides are to blame there's no resolution.

Good call. The False Equivalency Brigade is really having trouble with this situation, and it's only getting tougher with the latest actions by Republican extortionists.

 

[Mark Davis]

It's becoming readily apparent that Boehner is going to have to fall on the sword at the end of this thing. I believe he knew the approach the House took was doomed from the start by including Obamacare in the demands. In the end, if and when the Senate makes a deal, he's going to have to bring it to the floor and use Democratic votes to pass it along with the Republicans who are willing to go with the deal. I guess in theory he could choose not to do that, but he knows that not raising the debt ceiling could be catastrophic and I hope he will choose to do what's best for the country at that point. It will be interesting to see if it really is 30-40 holdouts or how many vote against it in the end. This has really been a lost opportunity for fiscal conservatives to try and negotiate meaningful entitlement reform and address budgetary issues. I don't like Obamacare either but thinking they were going to get a deal to gut that program was foolish at best.

 

[ffldrew]

House GOP members met Tuesday morning, beginning with a prayer and the singing of "Amazing Grace," and emerged two hours later with a plan resembling a deal emerging in the Senate, but with a few extra changes to President Barack Obama's signature health care law.

Weren't they singing Amazing Grace on the deck of the Titanic?

 

[Redwes25]

House GOP members met Tuesday morning, beginning with a prayer and the singing of "Amazing Grace," and emerged two hours later with a plan resembling a deal emerging in the Senate, but with a few extra changes to President Barack Obama's signature health care law.

Weren't they singing Amazing Grace on the deck of the Titanic?

Honestly, who makes this #### up. Un####ing believable.

 

[Slapdash]

It's becoming readily apparent that Boehner is going to have to fall on the sword at the end of this thing. I believe he knew the approach the House took was doomed from the start by including Obamacare in the demands. In the end, if and when the Senate makes a deal, he's going to have to bring it to the floor and use Democratic votes to pass it along with the Republicans who are willing to go with the deal. I guess in theory he could choose not to do that, but he knows that not raising the debt ceiling could be catastrophic and I hope he will choose to do what's best for the country at that point. It will be interesting to see if it really is 30-40 holdouts or how many vote against it in the end. This has really been a lost opportunity for fiscal conservatives to try and negotiate meaningful entitlement reform and address budgetary issues. I don't like Obamacare either but thinking they were going to get a deal to gut that program was foolish at best.

Hasn't this been the case for a while though? Before Obama's re-election, it seemed like the GOP was determined to avoid any type of "Grand Bargain" to hurt his chances. Now that he is here for a few more years, I'm not sure what is going on.

 

[timschochet]

This is from Erik Erikson's (Redstate) blog. Erikson is one of the key Tea Party voices:

http://www.redstate.com/2013/10/15/reject-this/

The basic framework of the deal Mitch McConnell and Harry Reid have hammered out is coming to light.

The provision the GOP is crowing over — that the Obama Administration will check the income levels of those who receive a subsidy — is already the law. Meanwhile, the GOP will let the rest of the year proceed above sequester level spending, give the unions another carve out of Obamacare, and extend the debt limit to February.

I’m sure at the last minute they’ll also delay the medical device tax so it looks like Harry Reid caved on something. Really, it’ll just be so McConnell’s and Boehner’s staffers on K Street get something out of the deal.

But don’t worry. Karl Rove’s Crossroads group is going to start spending money to protect Mitch McConnell from Matt Bevin in Kentucky.

Ted Cruz was right all along. Americans need House Republicans to fight. Mitch McConnell has no appetite for it. Senate Republicans are openly hoping to blame a debt default on Ted Cruz. They want to blame him for everything. They hate being seen as the capitulators that they are.

Conservatives in the House of Representatives need to stand up and pledge to vote against any rule on this plan. It does not defund Obamacare. It does not delay Obamacare. Heck, it does not even require that Obamacare go into effect as designed with no exemptions, exceptions, or delays. If they won’t defund or delay it, they should at least make it go into effect on schedule, on time, and by design — not with another union carve out.

Extend the debt ceiling so the manufactured nonsense about defaulting goes away, then keep the fight on the continuing resolution about Obamacare.

The RedState contact email is now getting one anti-GOP email for every one anti-Democrat email. That has never happened before. All these polls showing America hates the GOP are accurate. Even Republicans hate the GOP and the GOP might have to learn that the hard way in 2014 primaries.

 

[Redwes25]

It's becoming readily apparent that Boehner is going to have to fall on the sword at the end of this thing. I believe he knew the approach the House took was doomed from the start by including Obamacare in the demands. In the end, if and when the Senate makes a deal, he's going to have to bring it to the floor and use Democratic votes to pass it along with the Republicans who are willing to go with the deal. I guess in theory he could choose not to do that, but he knows that not raising the debt ceiling could be catastrophic and I hope he will choose to do what's best for the country at that point. It will be interesting to see if it really is 30-40 holdouts or how many vote against it in the end. This has really been a lost opportunity for fiscal conservatives to try and negotiate meaningful entitlement reform and address budgetary issues. I don't like Obamacare either but thinking they were going to get a deal to gut that program was foolish at best.

Hasn't this been the case for a while though? Before Obama's re-election, it seemed like the GOP was determined to avoid any type of "Grand Bargain" to hurt his chances. Now that he is here for a few more years, I'm not sure what is going on.

There are to busy signing amazing grace to get their head's out of their asses.

 

[spreagle]

House GOP members met Tuesday morning, beginning with a prayer and the singing of "Amazing Grace," and emerged two hours later with a plan resembling a deal emerging in the Senate, but with a few extra changes to President Barack Obama's signature health care law.

Weren't they singing Amazing Grace on the deck of the Titanic?

Don't let the Tea Party lead the dinner prayer or they'll go with their favorite "There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by excess credit creation. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit creation, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. Amen"

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Some good links...

With the Senate nearing finalizing a debt limit/shutdown deal, House GOP leaders convened a meeting of their members and unveiled to them a counteroffer to the still-emerging Senate plan. Similar in key respects, but with additional demands that were designed to appeal to the conservatives in the House.While that meeting was still going on, House leadership aides began briefing reporters on what the bill would contain. The White House quickly rejected the plan. But meanwhile, disenchantment among conservative members quickly began to brew in the conference meeting.

By the time Boehner emerged from the two-hour meeting to speak to reporters, he was very oblique about what the GOP plan would be, almost to the point of suggesting there still wasn't a plan yet. So it appears the House leadership's strategy has imploded almost as soon as it was unveiled.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

House GOP members met Tuesday morning, beginning with a prayer and the singing of "Amazing Grace," and emerged two hours later with a plan resembling a deal emerging in the Senate, but with a few extra changes to President Barack Obama's signature health care law.

Weren't they singing Amazing Grace on the deck of the Titanic?

Seriously? They sang Amazing Grace? At the capitol? For a committee meeting?

Look we all know I'm a fairly devout Christian, right? We can assume that and move on? If anyone is going to sing the A-Grace song before anything it's me. Ok, good.

Every single one of these morons has to be removed from office. Now.

 

[timschochet]

Even Republicans hate the GOP and the GOP might have to learn that the hard way in 2014 primaries.

That's an astounding comment by Erikson, given the fact that he was one of the cheerleaders for the shutdown and continues to push for House Republicans to "hold the line."

 

[Aerial Assault]

The silver lining in all this is that, even with more than a year to go, I'm fairly sure that the GOP has put the House firmly in play, perhaps even caused irreparable damage to their chances of holding it. This Amazing Grace business is just a small anecdote, but I'm now fully convinced that these people are insane. They have to be voted out, assuming that we still have a country left 13 months from now. Wow.

 

[jon_mx]

As much as all the Dems wish to dance on the graves of the GOP in the upcoming midterm elections, in the end it will be the individual candidates who win or lose these elections. National polling for how the public views parties does not translate into how people vote for their candidate. In most cases, people hate the national party but like their local candidate. There is still not much love for Democrats in most parts of this country.

 

[Mark Davis]

It's becoming readily apparent that Boehner is going to have to fall on the sword at the end of this thing. I believe he knew the approach the House took was doomed from the start by including Obamacare in the demands. In the end, if and when the Senate makes a deal, he's going to have to bring it to the floor and use Democratic votes to pass it along with the Republicans who are willing to go with the deal. I guess in theory he could choose not to do that, but he knows that not raising the debt ceiling could be catastrophic and I hope he will choose to do what's best for the country at that point. It will be interesting to see if it really is 30-40 holdouts or how many vote against it in the end. This has really been a lost opportunity for fiscal conservatives to try and negotiate meaningful entitlement reform and address budgetary issues. I don't like Obamacare either but thinking they were going to get a deal to gut that program was foolish at best.

Hasn't this been the case for a while though? Before Obama's re-election, it seemed like the GOP was determined to avoid any type of "Grand Bargain" to hurt his chances. Now that he is here for a few more years, I'm not sure what is going on.

I've certainly felt that way. I think most people see there is a "sweet spot" for entitlement reform and closing a few loopholes in the tax code that may bring in some revenue. We could even get there and flatten out some rates. We all know every loophole or deduction has someone who wants it, but there is going to have to be some correction to that in order to get it a deal done. It's silly to look at the trajectory of where we're going and not to want to get a deal done, especially in my mind if you're fiscally conservative. The status quo isn't getting it done.

 

[jamny]

House GOP members met Tuesday morning, beginning with a prayer and the singing of "Amazing Grace," and emerged two hours later with a plan resembling a deal emerging in the Senate, but with a few extra changes to President Barack Obama's signature health care law.

Weren't they singing Amazing Grace on the deck of the Titanic?

Honestly, who makes this #### up. Un####ing believable.

Embarrassing

 

[humpback]

It's becoming readily apparent that Boehner is going to have to fall on the sword at the end of this thing. I believe he knew the approach the House took was doomed from the start by including Obamacare in the demands. In the end, if and when the Senate makes a deal, he's going to have to bring it to the floor and use Democratic votes to pass it along with the Republicans who are willing to go with the deal. I guess in theory he could choose not to do that, but he knows that not raising the debt ceiling could be catastrophic and I hope he will choose to do what's best for the country at that point. It will be interesting to see if it really is 30-40 holdouts or how many vote against it in the end. This has really been a lost opportunity for fiscal conservatives to try and negotiate meaningful entitlement reform and address budgetary issues. I don't like Obamacare either but thinking they were going to get a deal to gut that program was foolish at best.

Hasn't this been the case for a while though? Before Obama's re-election, it seemed like the GOP was determined to avoid any type of "Grand Bargain" to hurt his chances. Now that he is here for a few more years, I'm not sure what is going on.

I think people vastly underestimate the differences between the two sides. For instance, the "budget" that the dems passed contains almost a trillion dollars in revenue increases over the next 10 years, would add over $5.2 trillion to the debt over that time, and would still leave us with half billion dollar + deficits then.

I know it's convenient to say they just oppose everything because it's him, but there really are massive differences between the two. It's kind of hard to come up with a "grand bargain" when the sides are so far apart (at least in rhetoric).

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Assuming that Boehner grabs the ceremonial sword and plunges it into his belly before the world economy blows up, it's pure watching the last 20 years of Republican goofiness come home to roost.

There's going to be a full on civil war in the Republican Party when this is over.

 

[Mark Davis]

Even Republicans hate the GOP and the GOP might have to learn that the hard way in 2014 primaries.

That's an astounding comment by Erikson, given the fact that he was one of the cheerleaders for the shutdown and continues to push for House Republicans to "hold the line."

I don't believe that. There really is support for these guys in the ultra conservative districts, I live in one.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

House GOP members met Tuesday morning, beginning with a prayer and the singing of "Amazing Grace," and emerged two hours later with a plan resembling a deal emerging in the Senate, but with a few extra changes to President Barack Obama's signature health care law.

Weren't they singing Amazing Grace on the deck of the Titanic?

Honestly, who makes this #### up. Un####ing believable.

Embarrassing

"Patriots"

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Assuming that Boehner grabs the ceremonial sword and plunges it into his belly before the world economy blows up, it's pure watching the last 20 years of Republican goofiness come home to roost.

There's going to be a full on civil war in the Republican Party when this is over.

It's already started. And it's massively necessary.

 

[ffldrew]

This is from Erik Erikson's (Redstate) blog. Erikson is one of the key Tea Party voices:

http://www.redstate.com/2013/10/15/reject-this/

The basic framework of the deal Mitch McConnell and Harry Reid have hammered out is coming to light.

The provision the GOP is crowing over — that the Obama Administration will check the income levels of those who receive a subsidy — is already the law. Meanwhile, the GOP will let the rest of the year proceed above sequester level spending, give the unions another carve out of Obamacare, and extend the debt limit to February.

I’m sure at the last minute they’ll also delay the medical device tax so it looks like Harry Reid caved on something. Really, it’ll just be so McConnell’s and Boehner’s staffers on K Street get something out of the deal.

But don’t worry. Karl Rove’s Crossroads group is going to start spending money to protect Mitch McConnell from Matt Bevin in Kentucky.

Ted Cruz was right all along. Americans need House Republicans to fight. Mitch McConnell has no appetite for it. Senate Republicans are openly hoping to blame a debt default on Ted Cruz. They want to blame him for everything. They hate being seen as the capitulators that they are.

Conservatives in the House of Representatives need to stand up and pledge to vote against any rule on this plan. It does not defund Obamacare. It does not delay Obamacare. Heck, it does not even require that Obamacare go into effect as designed with no exemptions, exceptions, or delays. If they won’t defund or delay it, they should at least make it go into effect on schedule, on time, and by design — not with another union carve out.

Extend the debt ceiling so the manufactured nonsense about defaulting goes away, then keep the fight on the continuing resolution about Obamacare.

The RedState contact email is now getting one anti-GOP email for every one anti-Democrat email. That has never happened before. All these polls showing America hates the GOP are accurate. Even Republicans hate the GOP and the GOP might have to learn that the hard way in 2014 primaries.

If McConnell is smart he lets Cruz get recognized on the floor to let him do his thing - let him filibuster again and make sure that the entire country sees how nuts these guys are as the deadline gets closer. If Cruz is a man and the House Tea Party has his back he should go "all in".

 

[Guest]

Is the debt ceiling deadline at 12 AM on the 17th, or do they have until 12 AM the 18th?

I need to know when to head to my emergency bunker.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Also, if they somehow manage to botch the entitlement reform for tax increases opportunity that's been on the table with Obama they may regret it.

It's always possible Democrats in the future will be less likely to do a deal like that. And I think it's relatively unlikely the Republicans are going to simultaneously hold the House, Senate and Presidency anytime soon.

 

[Don Quixote]

Senate talks apparently on hold while House acts.

McConnell Boehner

 

[The Commish]

Yes, a bi-partisan Senate deal that has the blessing of the President and House Democrats is a 'hand grenade' to House Republicans.

Will be great fun watching people twist themselves into knots explaining how both sides are to blame there's no resolution.

Good call. The False Equivalency Brigade is really having trouble with this situation, and it's only getting tougher with the latest actions by Republican extortionists.

You guys understand that "both sides are to blame" guys like myself understand each situation has a problem child who's causing more of the problem on the specific issue than the other right? I doubt many will question the GOP being the problem child in this situation. Am I to excuse all the cases in the past where the dems were the problem child? Because the actions of the past have gotten us to where we are today. The collective actions of both parties, over time, have gotten us to $16 trillion in debt...soon to be $17 trillion. I'm hoping this little incident puts a severe fracture in the GOP and they cut the crazy as a result. But right now, I see no point in praising the party down in the hole who just happens to not be holding the shovel, digging deeper because that will change soon enough.

 

[jon_mx]

It's becoming readily apparent that Boehner is going to have to fall on the sword at the end of this thing. I believe he knew the approach the House took was doomed from the start by including Obamacare in the demands. In the end, if and when the Senate makes a deal, he's going to have to bring it to the floor and use Democratic votes to pass it along with the Republicans who are willing to go with the deal. I guess in theory he could choose not to do that, but he knows that not raising the debt ceiling could be catastrophic and I hope he will choose to do what's best for the country at that point. It will be interesting to see if it really is 30-40 holdouts or how many vote against it in the end. This has really been a lost opportunity for fiscal conservatives to try and negotiate meaningful entitlement reform and address budgetary issues. I don't like Obamacare either but thinking they were going to get a deal to gut that program was foolish at best.

Hasn't this been the case for a while though? Before Obama's re-election, it seemed like the GOP was determined to avoid any type of "Grand Bargain" to hurt his chances. Now that he is here for a few more years, I'm not sure what is going on.

I think people vastly underestimate the differences between the two sides. For instance, the "budget" that the dems passed contains almost a trillion dollars in revenue increases over the next 10 years, would add over $5.2 trillion to the debt over that time, and would still leave us with half billion dollar + deficits then.

I know it's convenient to say they just oppose everything because it's him, but there really are massive differences between the two. It's kind of hard to come up with a "grand bargain" when the sides are so far apart (at least in rhetoric).

This is where the GOP should have been focusing election campaigns on for the last dozen years, but have not been. The GOP is trying to play Dem-lite when it comes to spending. Romney's biggest failure in last election was not making the federal deficit the #1 issue. His whole campaign was pretty much an empty suit, which is his own fault beceause he had a real chance after the first debate. Romney presented zero vision and talked exclusively about meaningless reforms which would not even put the slightest dent in the budget..

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Is the debt ceiling deadline at 12 AM on the 17th, or do they have until 12 AM the 18th?

I need to know when to head to my emergency bunker.

No one knows exactly what will happen on the 17th, but things probably wouldn't get really hinky unless the US misses an interest payment to bondholders. Which isn't going to happen. If we ever got close I'm pretty sure there would be a fair number of Republicans who would back Obama using the 14th amendment to ignore the debt limit.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Is the debt ceiling deadline at 12 AM on the 17th, or do they have until 12 AM the 18th?

I need to know when to head to my emergency bunker.

Best to leave now and avoid the traffic. I hear truckers are all over the roadways.

 

[Mark Davis]

As much as all the Dems wish to dance on the graves of the GOP in the upcoming midterm elections, in the end it will be the individual candidates who win or lose these elections. National polling for how the public views parties does not translate into how people vote for their candidate. In most cases, people hate the national party but like their local candidate. There is still not much love for Democrats in most parts of this country.

I agree that I don't think this will flip the House because of how extremist all of the districts are (both left and right) these days. The only way it flips the House is if the members not involved in this pay the price for the extremes in their own party. Those from the hard right districts will win re-election based on them essentially doing what their constituents want. However, it will cost the Republicans more and more in national races as well as in the Senate. The Republicans should already control the Senate, but instead they nominated Christine O'Donnell, Sharron Angle, Todd Akin, Richard Mourdock, etc. Ted Cruz can run for President all he wants because he has no shot nationally anymore. I think Cruz is a bright guy, my guess is he wants to make money on the speaking circuit after all this plays out. He has to know he can't win this.

 

[Sammy3469]

This is from Erik Erikson's (Redstate) blog. Erikson is one of the key Tea Party voices:

http://www.redstate.com/2013/10/15/reject-this/

The basic framework of the deal Mitch McConnell and Harry Reid have hammered out is coming to light.

The provision the GOP is crowing over — that the Obama Administration will check the income levels of those who receive a subsidy — is already the law. Meanwhile, the GOP will let the rest of the year proceed above sequester level spending, give the unions another carve out of Obamacare, and extend the debt limit to February.

I’m sure at the last minute they’ll also delay the medical device tax so it looks like Harry Reid caved on something. Really, it’ll just be so McConnell’s and Boehner’s staffers on K Street get something out of the deal.

But don’t worry. Karl Rove’s Crossroads group is going to start spending money to protect Mitch McConnell from Matt Bevin in Kentucky.

Ted Cruz was right all along. Americans need House Republicans to fight. Mitch McConnell has no appetite for it. Senate Republicans are openly hoping to blame a debt default on Ted Cruz. They want to blame him for everything. They hate being seen as the capitulators that they are.

Conservatives in the House of Representatives need to stand up and pledge to vote against any rule on this plan. It does not defund Obamacare. It does not delay Obamacare. Heck, it does not even require that Obamacare go into effect as designed with no exemptions, exceptions, or delays. If they won’t defund or delay it, they should at least make it go into effect on schedule, on time, and by design — not with another union carve out.

Extend the debt ceiling so the manufactured nonsense about defaulting goes away, then keep the fight on the continuing resolution about Obamacare.

The RedState contact email is now getting one anti-GOP email for every one anti-Democrat email. That has never happened before. All these polls showing America hates the GOP are accurate. Even Republicans hate the GOP and the GOP might have to learn that the hard way in 2014 primaries.

If McConnell is smart he lets Cruz get recognized on the floor to let him do his thing - let him filibuster again and make sure that the entire country sees how nuts these guys are as the deadline gets closer. If Cruz is a man and the House Tea Party has his back he should go "all in".

Can't wait to see Cruz fold and the Tea-Partiers go even more insane

 

[humpback]

Even Republicans hate the GOP and the GOP might have to learn that the hard way in 2014 primaries.

That's an astounding comment by Erikson, given the fact that he was one of the cheerleaders for the shutdown and continues to push for House Republicans to "hold the line."

I don't think he's saying what you think he's saying.

 

[Fennis]

Is the debt ceiling deadline at 12 AM on the 17th, or do they have until 12 AM the 18th?

I need to know when to head to my emergency bunker.

No one knows exactly what will happen on the 17th, but things probably wouldn't get really hinky unless the US misses an interest payment to bondholders. Which isn't going to happen. If we ever got close I'm pretty sure there would be a fair number of Republicans who would back Obama using the 14th amendment to ignore the debt limit.

While I agree there is nothing magical on the 17th, its not just missing payments to bondholders that will cause think to get "hinky". Not paying the military, or SS recipients or a number of other debts will cause serious consequences.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Ted Cruz can run for President all he wants because he has no shot nationally anymore. I think Cruz is a bright guy, my guess is he wants to make money on the speaking circuit after all this plays out. He has to know he can't win this.

A lot of people think he's gunning for the Republican nomination in 2016 and is trying to lock up the Tea Party vote.

 

[The Commish]

It's becoming readily apparent that Boehner is going to have to fall on the sword at the end of this thing. I believe he knew the approach the House took was doomed from the start by including Obamacare in the demands. In the end, if and when the Senate makes a deal, he's going to have to bring it to the floor and use Democratic votes to pass it along with the Republicans who are willing to go with the deal. I guess in theory he could choose not to do that, but he knows that not raising the debt ceiling could be catastrophic and I hope he will choose to do what's best for the country at that point. It will be interesting to see if it really is 30-40 holdouts or how many vote against it in the end. This has really been a lost opportunity for fiscal conservatives to try and negotiate meaningful entitlement reform and address budgetary issues. I don't like Obamacare either but thinking they were going to get a deal to gut that program was foolish at best.

Hasn't this been the case for a while though? Before Obama's re-election, it seemed like the GOP was determined to avoid any type of "Grand Bargain" to hurt his chances. Now that he is here for a few more years, I'm not sure what is going on.

I think people vastly underestimate the differences between the two sides. For instance, the "budget" that the dems passed contains almost a trillion dollars in revenue increases over the next 10 years, would add over $5.2 trillion to the debt over that time, and would still leave us with half billion dollar + deficits then.

I know it's convenient to say they just oppose everything because it's him, but there really are massive differences between the two. It's kind of hard to come up with a "grand bargain" when the sides are so far apart (at least in rhetoric).

This is where the GOP should have been focusing election campaigns on for the last dozen years, but have not been. The GOP is trying to play Dem-lite when it comes to spending. Romney's biggest failure in last election was not making the federal deficit the #1 issue. His whole campaign was pretty much an empty suit, which is his own fault beceause he had a real chance after the first debate. Romney presented zero vision and talked exclusively about meaningless reforms which would not even put the slightest dent in the budget..

Had he given specifics, we might have been able to assert this, but his "reforms" lacked any sort of detail to the point where it was just a black box and we just had to trust what he was saying. Just a terribly run and executed campaign on all levels.

 

[Sammy3469]

As much as all the Dems wish to dance on the graves of the GOP in the upcoming midterm elections, in the end it will be the individual candidates who win or lose these elections. National polling for how the public views parties does not translate into how people vote for their candidate. In most cases, people hate the national party but like their local candidate. There is still not much love for Democrats in most parts of this country.

I agree that I don't think this will flip the House because of how extremist all of the districts are (both left and right) these days. The only way it flips the House is if the members not involved in this pay the price for the extremes in their own party. Those from the hard right districts will win re-election based on them essentially doing what their constituents want. However, it will cost the Republicans more and more in national races as well as in the Senate. The Republicans should already control the Senate, but instead they nominated Christine O'Donnell, Sharron Angle, Todd Akin, Richard Mourdock, etc. Ted Cruz can run for President all he wants because he has no shot nationally anymore. I think Cruz is a bright guy, my guess is he wants to make money on the speaking circuit after all this plays out. He has to know he can't win this.

FWIW, the Dems already have recruited several of thier first choice candidates in some of the less red House districts including a guy in the Omaha district. I wouldn't be surprised of they field other attractive candidates in the gerrymandered Raliegh NC districts where both Republican reps made moronic comments and/or fell asleep during the government shutdown debate.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Is the debt ceiling deadline at 12 AM on the 17th, or do they have until 12 AM the 18th?

I need to know when to head to my emergency bunker.

No one knows exactly what will happen on the 17th, but things probably wouldn't get really hinky unless the US misses an interest payment to bondholders. Which isn't going to happen. If we ever got close I'm pretty sure there would be a fair number of Republicans who would back Obama using the 14th amendment to ignore the debt limit.

While I agree there is nothing magical on the 17th, its not just missing payments to bondholders that will cause think to get "hinky". Not paying the military, or SS recipients or a number of other debts will cause serious consequences.

Could be, I'm not saying there wouldn't be consequences. Just that no one knows exactly what would happen.

The consequences of missed interest payments are written into gazillions of legal documents around the world and would blow things up immediately.

 

[Mark Davis]

Ted Cruz can run for President all he wants because he has no shot nationally anymore. I think Cruz is a bright guy, my guess is he wants to make money on the speaking circuit after all this plays out. He has to know he can't win this.

A lot of people think he's gunning for the Republican nomination in 2016 and is trying to lock up the Tea Party vote.

Ted Cruz can run for President all he wants because he has no shot nationally anymore. I think Cruz is a bright guy, my guess is he wants to make money on the speaking circuit after all this plays out. He has to know he can't win this.

A lot of people think he's gunning for the Republican nomination in 2016 and is trying to lock up the Tea Party vote.

He could. Where does that leave him though? I'm not sure it's enough to win him the nomination. Even if he did, he would have no electoral path to victory given what he's done. He simply couldn't carry the states that a Republican would have to in order to have a shot. It basically would fatten his resume to get paid on the circuit later. That may be what it's all about, I don't know.

 

[Aerial Assault]

As much as all the Dems wish to dance on the graves of the GOP in the upcoming midterm elections, in the end it will be the individual candidates who win or lose these elections. National polling for how the public views parties does not translate into how people vote for their candidate. In most cases, people hate the national party but like their local candidate. There is still not much love for Democrats in most parts of this country.

I agree that I don't think this will flip the House because of how extremist all of the districts are (both left and right) these days. The only way it flips the House is if the members not involved in this pay the price for the extremes in their own party. Those from the hard right districts will win re-election based on them essentially doing what their constituents want. However, it will cost the Republicans more and more in national races as well as in the Senate. The Republicans should already control the Senate, but instead they nominated Christine O'Donnell, Sharron Angle, Todd Akin, Richard Mourdock, etc. Ted Cruz can run for President all he wants because he has no shot nationally anymore. I think Cruz is a bright guy, my guess is he wants to make money on the speaking circuit after all this plays out. He has to know he can't win this.

Yeah, based on some post-shutdown polling, I don't agree. The Republicans only have their majority because their districts are heavily gerrymandered, but even many of those gerrymanders are the sort where something that moves the needle against the candidate can result in a switch, and if it's because of a national phenomenon like this, then you're looking at a wave. An example that springs right to mind is Pennsylvania, where something could easily swallow up Reps. like Gerlach and Meehan - Philly-area Republicans whose districts don't like ultra-conservative doctrine.

And no one's talking about hard-right districts being in play. There are about 30 to 35 where Obama either won or came very close in 2012.

 

[timschochet]

As much as all the Dems wish to dance on the graves of the GOP in the upcoming midterm elections, in the end it will be the individual candidates who win or lose these elections. National polling for how the public views parties does not translate into how people vote for their candidate. In most cases, people hate the national party but like their local candidate. There is still not much love for Democrats in most parts of this country.

I agree that I don't think this will flip the House because of how extremist all of the districts are (both left and right) these days. The only way it flips the House is if the members not involved in this pay the price for the extremes in their own party. Those from the hard right districts will win re-election based on them essentially doing what their constituents want. However, it will cost the Republicans more and more in national races as well as in the Senate. The Republicans should already control the Senate, but instead they nominated Christine O'Donnell, Sharron Angle, Todd Akin, Richard Mourdock, etc. Ted Cruz can run for President all he wants because he has no shot nationally anymore. I think Cruz is a bright guy, my guess is he wants to make money on the speaking circuit after all this plays out. He has to know he can't win this.

In 2006 the House flipped. In 2010, the House flipped again. To me that indicates there are a lot of swing districts out there, even despite the gerrymandering. I don't know the exact number. But given the fact that it's flipped twice in recent years, why couldn't an incident like this cause it to flip again?

 

[Mark Davis]

As much as all the Dems wish to dance on the graves of the GOP in the upcoming midterm elections, in the end it will be the individual candidates who win or lose these elections. National polling for how the public views parties does not translate into how people vote for their candidate. In most cases, people hate the national party but like their local candidate. There is still not much love for Democrats in most parts of this country.

I agree that I don't think this will flip the House because of how extremist all of the districts are (both left and right) these days. The only way it flips the House is if the members not involved in this pay the price for the extremes in their own party. Those from the hard right districts will win re-election based on them essentially doing what their constituents want. However, it will cost the Republicans more and more in national races as well as in the Senate. The Republicans should already control the Senate, but instead they nominated Christine O'Donnell, Sharron Angle, Todd Akin, Richard Mourdock, etc. Ted Cruz can run for President all he wants because he has no shot nationally anymore. I think Cruz is a bright guy, my guess is he wants to make money on the speaking circuit after all this plays out. He has to know he can't win this.

In 2006 the House flipped. In 2010, the House flipped again. To me that indicates there are a lot of swing districts out there, even despite the gerrymandering. I don't know the exact number. But given the fact that it's flipped twice in recent years, why couldn't an incident like this cause it to flip again?

It could, but like I said if it does it will not be the tea partiers who lose their seats and pay the price, it will be the more moderate representatives from more moderate districts.

 

[ffldrew]

As much as all the Dems wish to dance on the graves of the GOP in the upcoming midterm elections, in the end it will be the individual candidates who win or lose these elections. National polling for how the public views parties does not translate into how people vote for their candidate. In most cases, people hate the national party but like their local candidate. There is still not much love for Democrats in most parts of this country.

I agree that I don't think this will flip the House because of how extremist all of the districts are (both left and right) these days. The only way it flips the House is if the members not involved in this pay the price for the extremes in their own party. Those from the hard right districts will win re-election based on them essentially doing what their constituents want. However, it will cost the Republicans more and more in national races as well as in the Senate. The Republicans should already control the Senate, but instead they nominated Christine O'Donnell, Sharron Angle, Todd Akin, Richard Mourdock, etc. Ted Cruz can run for President all he wants because he has no shot nationally anymore. I think Cruz is a bright guy, my guess is he wants to make money on the speaking circuit after all this plays out. He has to know he can't win this.

In 2006 the House flipped. In 2010, the House flipped again. To me that indicates there are a lot of swing districts out there, even despite the gerrymandering. I don't know the exact number. But given the fact that it's flipped twice in recent years, why couldn't an incident like this cause it to flip again?

Because the real heavy gerrymandering took place after the 2010 census and redistricting

 

[timschochet]

It's becoming readily apparent that Boehner is going to have to fall on the sword at the end of this thing. I believe he knew the approach the House took was doomed from the start by including Obamacare in the demands. In the end, if and when the Senate makes a deal, he's going to have to bring it to the floor and use Democratic votes to pass it along with the Republicans who are willing to go with the deal. I guess in theory he could choose not to do that, but he knows that not raising the debt ceiling could be catastrophic and I hope he will choose to do what's best for the country at that point. It will be interesting to see if it really is 30-40 holdouts or how many vote against it in the end. This has really been a lost opportunity for fiscal conservatives to try and negotiate meaningful entitlement reform and address budgetary issues. I don't like Obamacare either but thinking they were going to get a deal to gut that program was foolish at best.

Hasn't this been the case for a while though? Before Obama's re-election, it seemed like the GOP was determined to avoid any type of "Grand Bargain" to hurt his chances. Now that he is here for a few more years, I'm not sure what is going on.

I think people vastly underestimate the differences between the two sides. For instance, the "budget" that the dems passed contains almost a trillion dollars in revenue increases over the next 10 years, would add over $5.2 trillion to the debt over that time, and would still leave us with half billion dollar + deficits then.

I know it's convenient to say they just oppose everything because it's him, but there really are massive differences between the two. It's kind of hard to come up with a "grand bargain" when the sides are so far apart (at least in rhetoric).

This is where the GOP should have been focusing election campaigns on for the last dozen years, but have not been. The GOP is trying to play Dem-lite when it comes to spending. Romney's biggest failure in last election was not making the federal deficit the #1 issue. His whole campaign was pretty much an empty suit, which is his own fault beceause he had a real chance after the first debate. Romney presented zero vision and talked exclusively about meaningless reforms which would not even put the slightest dent in the budget..

You keep repeating this, but neither you, nor Romney, nor the Tea Party are ever willing to say where these cuts are going to come from. And we all know why: because ANY kind of significant spending cut will be tremendously unpopular with the public.

 

[timschochet]

As much as all the Dems wish to dance on the graves of the GOP in the upcoming midterm elections, in the end it will be the individual candidates who win or lose these elections. National polling for how the public views parties does not translate into how people vote for their candidate. In most cases, people hate the national party but like their local candidate. There is still not much love for Democrats in most parts of this country.

I agree that I don't think this will flip the House because of how extremist all of the districts are (both left and right) these days. The only way it flips the House is if the members not involved in this pay the price for the extremes in their own party. Those from the hard right districts will win re-election based on them essentially doing what their constituents want. However, it will cost the Republicans more and more in national races as well as in the Senate. The Republicans should already control the Senate, but instead they nominated Christine O'Donnell, Sharron Angle, Todd Akin, Richard Mourdock, etc. Ted Cruz can run for President all he wants because he has no shot nationally anymore. I think Cruz is a bright guy, my guess is he wants to make money on the speaking circuit after all this plays out. He has to know he can't win this.

In 2006 the House flipped. In 2010, the House flipped again. To me that indicates there are a lot of swing districts out there, even despite the gerrymandering. I don't know the exact number. But given the fact that it's flipped twice in recent years, why couldn't an incident like this cause it to flip again?

It could, but like I said if it does it will not be the tea partiers who lose their seats and pay the price, it will be the more moderate representatives from more moderate districts.

Exactly right, and this is my biggest fear. A smaller GOP, completely dominated by Tea Party types.