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This quote is a perfect distillation of coaches' risk aversion (1 Viewer)

zftcg

Footballguy
I've been hate reading Gregg Easterbrook's TMQ for years. One of his most annoying tics is when he tries to get inside the heads of coaches who make conservative play calls -- "they're afraid of being criticized", or "they want to keep a shutout off their record" -- without actually presenting any evidence that's how coaches think.

But after reading this quote that Tony Dungy gave to Peter King, I have to say that Easterbrook may be more right than wrong:

Tony Dungy is anti-both-teams-being-guaranteed-a-possession in overtime, and here’s why. Dungy’s reasoning: “Tweaking the overtime rule to guarantee each team one possession would bring up more decisions down the road. I would assume most coaches would kick off in those circumstances, because if you stop them you can win with a field goal, [and] if they score first, you’re guaranteed to get the ball knowing exactly what you need to do and have the advantage of being able to go for it on fourth down if necessary. However if Team A scores first, how does the Team B coach play it? If Team A kicks a field goal on the first drive, and Team B drives and comes up fourth-and-two with a chip shot field goal—do you kick it or go for it on fourth down knowing that if you merely tie the game you are back to the old sudden-death rules where a field goal beats you? Also: Say Team A scores a touchdown and Team B also scores on their guaranteed possession. Does the Team B coach go for two? You'd have to think about it, knowing that if you tie it up you now have to defend that situation where Team A now needs only a field goal to win. So what is fair? How far do you take it out in hypotheticals? What it comes down to for me is, at some point you have to play defense and stop the other team.”
Dungy is admitting flat out that he doesn't like having to make strategic decisions, and if his team is going to lose, he would rather it be because his players failed to execute.

At some point, though, you'd think NFL coaches would start to notice that the ones with the DGAF attitude (Belichick, Arians, Rivera) are also the ones who seem to have the most success. And yes, I know the causation probably runs both ways: Coaches who are successful have more leeway. Still, I'm hopeful that more coaches will follow the lead of Rivera, who ditched conservatism to save his job and has been rewarded with an extended run of success.

 
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i did not read that as he did not like to make strategic decisions, i read it as laying out the factors that go into a strategic decision

he's trying to figure out the best way to win a game, he never mentions fear of being criticized. And I would be 100% sure Bellicheck thinks of all those things too, he just may come up with a different answer.

just my thoughts

 
I've been hate reading Gregg Easterbrook's TMQ for years. One of his most annoying tics is when he tries to get inside the heads of coaches who make conservative play calls -- "they're afraid of being criticized", or "they want to keep a shutout off their record" -- without actually presenting any evidence that's how coach's think.

But after reading this quote that Tony Dungy gave to Peter King, I have to say that Easterbrook may be more right than wrong:

Tony Dungy is anti-both-teams-being-guaranteed-a-possession in overtime, and here’s why. Dungy’s reasoning: “Tweaking the overtime rule to guarantee each team one possession would bring up more decisions down the road. I would assume most coaches would kick off in those circumstances, because if you stop them you can win with a field goal, [and] if they score first, you’re guaranteed to get the ball knowing exactly what you need to do and have the advantage of being able to go for it on fourth down if necessary. However if Team A scores first, how does the Team B coach play it? If Team A kicks a field goal on the first drive, and Team B drives and comes up fourth-and-two with a chip shot field goal—do you kick it or go for it on fourth down knowing that if you merely tie the game you are back to the old sudden-death rules where a field goal beats you? Also: Say Team A scores a touchdown and Team B also scores on their guaranteed possession. Does the Team B coach go for two? You'd have to think about it, knowing that if you tie it up you now have to defend that situation where Team A now needs only a field goal to win. So what is fair? How far do you take it out in hypotheticals? What it comes down to for me is, at some point you have to play defense and stop the other team.”
Dungy is admitting flat out that he doesn't like having to make strategic decisions, and if his team is going to lose, he would rather it be because his players failed to execute.

At some point, though, you'd think NFL coaches would start to notice that the ones with the DGAF attitude (Belichick, Arians, Rivera) are also the ones who seem to have the most success. And yes, I know the causation probably runs both ways: Coaches who are successful have more leeway. Still, I'm hopeful that more coaches will follow the lead of Rivera, who ditched conservatism to save his job and has been rewarded with an extended run of success.
I disagree with your conclusions. He explains what he thinks the rule would do in reality and he doesn't like that for the good of the game.

Just play sudden death and stop whining about getting beat by a field goal.

 
You actually disagreed with Easterbrook's assertion before you read that from Dungy? Why?
:goodposting:

I think Easterbrook is pretty obviously right when it comes to this particular point. A large majority of NFL head coaches make systematic errors on game day biased against going for it on 4th down. Eventually, somebody is going to come along who makes these decisions in a more statistically rational sense, wins a bunch of games as a result, and overturns the conventional wisdom. We're out of equilibrium right now.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
You actually disagreed with Easterbrook's assertion before you read that from Dungy? Why?
:goodposting:

I think Easterbrook is pretty obviously right when it comes to this particular point. A large majority of NFL head coaches make systematic errors on game day biased against going for it on 4th down. Eventually, somebody is going to come along who makes these decisions in a more statistically rational sense, wins a bunch of games as a result, and overturns the conventional wisdom. We're out of equilibrium right now.
In theory you should be correct but the NFL plays so few games that even if a coach exploits a Moneyball-like inefficiency, it's not going to manifest itself in winning a bunch of games. If the strategically correct calls net you an advantage of 5%, say, you're looking at a little under one game per year while in baseball it might look more like 8 games in a 162 game season. You just won't see it in football, or it will be obscured by dozens of confounding factors.

The only time we see, to quote Silver, the Signal over the Noise, is in these seemingly bizarre, extreme HS and college coaches who exploit the huge variation in quality of their competition by never punting or always kicking onsides. There's no great inefficiency to exploit in the pros, just marginal ones that remain obscured so they will not proliferate.

 
You actually disagreed with Easterbrook's assertion before you read that from Dungy? Why?
Not in the broad sense. I agree that coaches are too conservative, and that fear of being criticized is a factor. But he's repeatedly written things like this:

Pulling within 21 points was not the goal -- the apparent goal was to keep a shutout off Whisenhunt's résumé, so that when he faces his end-of-season review and might be fired, one of the complaints won't be, "We got shut out on 'Monday Night Football.'" A coach who's more concerned with keeping a shutout off his résumé than with trying to win is a coach who should receive cab fare to the airport.
Stuff like that has never rung true to me. I'm a Lions fan, and I have no idea how many times Rod Marinelli got shut out in that infamous 2008 season. You know what I do remember? That they lost 16 games! The notion that avoiding a shutout would be an argument for saving someone's job seems completely out of touch with reality

Basically, I've long agreed with TMQ's diagnosis, but not the cause. My own hypothesis is that coaches do these things without really giving them much thought, simply because that's how they've always been done. That was why the Dungy quote jumped out at me. I read it as him admitting that he preferred not having to make more strategic decisions late in the game. So maybe Eastbrook is correct that coaches are not just conservative, but consciously conservative.

 
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DropKick said:
I've been hate reading Gregg Easterbrook's TMQ for years. One of his most annoying tics is when he tries to get inside the heads of coaches who make conservative play calls -- "they're afraid of being criticized", or "they want to keep a shutout off their record" -- without actually presenting any evidence that's how coach's think.

But after reading this quote that Tony Dungy gave to Peter King, I have to say that Easterbrook may be more right than wrong:

Tony Dungy is anti-both-teams-being-guaranteed-a-possession in overtime, and here’s why. Dungy’s reasoning: “Tweaking the overtime rule to guarantee each team one possession would bring up more decisions down the road. I would assume most coaches would kick off in those circumstances, because if you stop them you can win with a field goal, [and] if they score first, you’re guaranteed to get the ball knowing exactly what you need to do and have the advantage of being able to go for it on fourth down if necessary. However if Team A scores first, how does the Team B coach play it? If Team A kicks a field goal on the first drive, and Team B drives and comes up fourth-and-two with a chip shot field goal—do you kick it or go for it on fourth down knowing that if you merely tie the game you are back to the old sudden-death rules where a field goal beats you? Also: Say Team A scores a touchdown and Team B also scores on their guaranteed possession. Does the Team B coach go for two? You'd have to think about it, knowing that if you tie it up you now have to defend that situation where Team A now needs only a field goal to win. So what is fair? How far do you take it out in hypotheticals? What it comes down to for me is, at some point you have to play defense and stop the other team.”
Dungy is admitting flat out that he doesn't like having to make strategic decisions, and if his team is going to lose, he would rather it be because his players failed to execute.

At some point, though, you'd think NFL coaches would start to notice that the ones with the DGAF attitude (Belichick, Arians, Rivera) are also the ones who seem to have the most success. And yes, I know the causation probably runs both ways: Coaches who are successful have more leeway. Still, I'm hopeful that more coaches will follow the lead of Rivera, who ditched conservatism to save his job and has been rewarded with an extended run of success.
I disagree with your conclusions. He explains what he thinks the rule would do in reality and he doesn't like that for the good of the game.

Just play sudden death and stop whining about getting beat by a field goal.
What you're saying is the standard argument against changing the OT rules. I understand that argument (and honestly, I'm pretty agnostic about the whole thing. Change it, don't change it, I don't care.)

But Dungy is saying something different. Why does he go on and on spinning out all of the hypotheticals? His complaint is all of the decisions that coaches would have to make in these scenarios. But he's obviously not against coaches making decisions -- they do that all game long. What he seems to be focusing on is the types of decisions that would subject a coach to criticism if they were to go wrong.

Now, does he come right out and say that? No, and it's possible he meant something different. But why else would he be complaining about those hypothetical calls? Does anyone think a football game is less exciting, or less pure, or in any way lacking if a coach has to make a tough call late in the contest? I actually think it makes it more interesting, precisely because it gives us something to argue over the next day. But Dungy seems to think that's a negative. Why do you think that is?

My point in the OP was that Easterbrook has long made this assertion without any proof. With this quote I think he finally has it.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
You actually disagreed with Easterbrook's assertion before you read that from Dungy? Why?
:goodposting:

I think Easterbrook is pretty obviously right when it comes to this particular point. A large majority of NFL head coaches make systematic errors on game day biased against going for it on 4th down. Eventually, somebody is going to come along who makes these decisions in a more statistically rational sense, wins a bunch of games as a result, and overturns the conventional wisdom. We're out of equilibrium right now.
That's one reason I'm rooting for Rivera's continued success. Belichick (and to a lesser extent, Tomlin) do it because they have so much job security. Arians basically has an attitude of "It took me this long to become a HC, so I'm just going to do whatever the %^& I want and not worry about the consequences."

But in Rivera's case, he specifically started doing it because he was on the verge of getting fired, and it saved his job. I hope he becomes an example for other coaches. They can't relate to Belichick's situation, but they can sure as hell relate to being on the chopping block. If using analytics is seen as giving you an advantage, rather than putting your job at risk, then we'll have turned a corner.

 
You actually disagreed with Easterbrook's assertion before you read that from Dungy? Why?
Not in the broad sense. I agree that coaches are too conservative, and that fear of being criticized is a factor. But he's repeatedly written things like this:

Pulling within 21 points was not the goal -- the apparent goal was to keep a shutout off Whisenhunt's résumé, so that when he faces his end-of-season review and might be fired, one of the complaints won't be, "We got shut out on 'Monday Night Football.'" A coach who's more concerned with keeping a shutout off his résumé than with trying to win is a coach who should receive cab fare to the airport.
Stuff like that has never rung true to me. I'm a Lions fan, and I have no idea how many times Rod Marinelli got shut out in that infamous 2008 season. You know what I do remember? That they lost 16 games! The notion that avoiding a shutout would be an argument for saving someone's job seems completely out of touch with reality

Basically, I've long agreed with TMQ's diagnosis, but not the cause. My own hypothesis is that coaches do these things without really giving them much thought, simply because that's how they've always been done. That was why the Dungy quote jumped out at me. I read it as him admitting that he preferred not having to make more strategic decisions late in the game. So maybe Eastbrook is correct that coaches are not just conservative, but consciously conservative.
O suspect there's more to "shutout aversion" than the end-of-season review. A shutout could be demoralizing for the team and could effect a weeks worth of practices, thereby effecting the next game. Getting that zero off of the scoreboard feels a whole lot better than keeping it up there - it gives you something you can build off of.

Coaches have to take a long view. A season is more than 16 discrete games, just as a team is more than 53 players.

 
Was I the only one to go all :confused: :wall: at Dungy's conclusion?

Apparently he's against both-teams-get-a possession because "What it comes down to for me is, at some point you have to play defense and stop the other team."

Uh, coach, under the current rules you don't have to play defense and stop the other team. The Cardinals just demonstrated this vs. GB.

 
Was I the only one to go all :confused: :wall: at Dungy's conclusion?

Apparently he's against both-teams-get-a possession because "What it comes down to for me is, at some point you have to play defense and stop the other team."

Uh, coach, under the current rules you don't have to play defense and stop the other team. The Cardinals just demonstrated this vs. GB.
Eh, that was the part I found the least objectionable. I think he was just using the shorthand for, "Don't complain that you never got to touch the ball. If you had played better defense, you would have."

 
Still, I'm hopeful that more coaches will follow the lead of Rivera, who ditched conservatism to save his job and has been rewarded with an extended run of success.
The guy wised up. Good for him. They went for 2 last week with the game in the bag. I love that. Punch the other team in the mouth. This isn't kiddie football here where everyone gets a trophy and we don't want to make the other team cry. This is the NFL. You take risks or you better have a top 5 D. If not, you will be a perpetual loser. That's why I like guys like Tomlin, Belicheck and S. Payton and despise wussies like Fisher, Caldwell and Fox. Oh, I forgot Lovie.

 
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Was I the only one to go all :confused: :wall: at Dungy's conclusion?

Apparently he's against both-teams-get-a possession because "What it comes down to for me is, at some point you have to play defense and stop the other team."

Uh, coach, under the current rules you don't have to play defense and stop the other team. The Cardinals just demonstrated this vs. GB.
Eh, that was the part I found the least objectionable. I think he was just using the shorthand for, "Don't complain that you never got to touch the ball. If you had played better defense, you would have."
That's just parsing words. It's a ridiculous argument in any event, because only one team is being held to that requirement. The Cardinals didn't have to play any defense at all, let alone good defense.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
You actually disagreed with Easterbrook's assertion before you read that from Dungy? Why?
:goodposting:

I think Easterbrook is pretty obviously right when it comes to this particular point. A large majority of NFL head coaches make systematic errors on game day biased against going for it on 4th down. Eventually, somebody is going to come along who makes these decisions in a more statistically rational sense, wins a bunch of games as a result, and overturns the conventional wisdom. We're out of equilibrium right now.
In theory you should be correct but the NFL plays so few games that even if a coach exploits a Moneyball-like inefficiency, it's not going to manifest itself in winning a bunch of games. If the strategically correct calls net you an advantage of 5%, say, you're looking at a little under one game per year while in baseball it might look more like 8 games in a 162 game season. You just won't see it in football, or it will be obscured by dozens of confounding factors.

The only time we see, to quote Silver, the Signal over the Noise, is in these seemingly bizarre, extreme HS and college coaches who exploit the huge variation in quality of their competition by never punting or always kicking onsides. There's no great inefficiency to exploit in the pros, just marginal ones that remain obscured so they will not proliferate.
To digress a bit, another quibble I've had with Easterbrook (haven't read in a couple years) is when he uses a stat like "the average NFL running play gains X yards" to advocate nearly always going for it on 4th and (< X).

The error there is equating "average" with "typical". As an extreme example, if you have 10 running plays that go for 1, 1, -3, 2, 1, 0, 0, -1, 2 and 37, the average of those plays is a gain of 4 yards, but 90% of them would not pick up a 4th and 3. I'd much rather see a stat about the median outcome of rushing attempts, which in the example here would be a 1-yard gain (which is IMO a better indication of the expected outcome).

 
IvanKaramazov said:
You actually disagreed with Easterbrook's assertion before you read that from Dungy? Why?
:goodposting:

I think Easterbrook is pretty obviously right when it comes to this particular point. A large majority of NFL head coaches make systematic errors on game day biased against going for it on 4th down. Eventually, somebody is going to come along who makes these decisions in a more statistically rational sense, wins a bunch of games as a result, and overturns the conventional wisdom. We're out of equilibrium right now.
In theory you should be correct but the NFL plays so few games that even if a coach exploits a Moneyball-like inefficiency, it's not going to manifest itself in winning a bunch of games. If the strategically correct calls net you an advantage of 5%, say, you're looking at a little under one game per year while in baseball it might look more like 8 games in a 162 game season. You just won't see it in football, or it will be obscured by dozens of confounding factors.

The only time we see, to quote Silver, the Signal over the Noise, is in these seemingly bizarre, extreme HS and college coaches who exploit the huge variation in quality of their competition by never punting or always kicking onsides. There's no great inefficiency to exploit in the pros, just marginal ones that remain obscured so they will not proliferate.
To digress a bit, another quibble I've had with Easterbrook (haven't read in a couple years) is when he uses a stat like "the average NFL running play gains X yards" to advocate nearly always going for it on 4th and (< X).

The error there is equating "average" with "typical". As an extreme example, if you have 10 running plays that go for 1, 1, -3, 2, 1, 0, 0, -1, 2 and 37, the average of those plays is a gain of 4 yards, but 90% of them would not pick up a 4th and 3. I'd much rather see a stat about the median outcome of rushing attempts, which in the example here would be a 1-yard gain (which is IMO a better indication of the expected outcome).
I really have mixed feelings about Eastbrook. On the one hand, he was the first person to turn me on to the issue of coaches' hyperconservatism; he's been banging that drum since he started the column 15 years ago. But then I started reading guys like Barnwell and Schatz and realized how innumerate Easterbrook actually is. He's right that teams should go for it more on 4th, but then he justifies it by dumb reasons like, "The coach should challenge his players. Because he launched a mincing fraidy-cat punt, his players seemed to get demoralized and give up." Um, no. They should go for it because it increases their win probability.

Your example above has a similar problem. He seems like he's citing quantitative reasons, but he's really just grasping at whatever numbers support his position, without really understanding them.

My other issue with him is just that his schtick has gotten old. He's been repeating the same jokes and hobby horses for 15 years. And yet I keep reading him. It's like the last couple seasons of "Friends" or "Entourage", which I kept watching due to inertia, even though both shows were practically unwatchable.

 
Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, John Fox and others will never change. Dungy won a SB in spite of himself and he doesn't even realize it. You hit it 100% on the nose about the successful coaches. BB, Riverboat Ron and Tomlin are notorious risk takers as are Sean Peyton, Arians and Pete Carroll. It doesn't always work but they take that extra step to find ways to win.

 
Lots of things going on here.

1) Dungy's comments. If anything it seems he is pointing out that the guaranteed possession in OT would simplify the coaching decisions (and gain a larger advantage) for which ever team gets to have the second possession. At the end it seems he is just talking about the hypothetical situations that we talk about when discussing OT formats. "How many times does it have to go back and fourth between guaranteed possessions before it's fair?" kind of thing.

2) The coaches with better teams are more likely to have positive results in higher risk situations which leads to some of the decisions to "go for it." I hate when coaches punt inside the opponents 45. Drives me nuts. I think the risk/reward ratio in these situations is in favour of going for it on anything less than a 4th and 8. However, this has nothing to do with analytics. This isn't about what the numbers say to do it just my personal opinion. And I think that a lot of these coaches don't have the strongest teams so there's other factors that come into play.

3) Human emotions are a very real aspect of the game and these situations. If a team gets stuff on 4th and short they lose a ton of momentum and give it to the other team. Miss a 2-pt conversation, same thing.

4) I don't read Mr. Easterbrook's work but I'm assuming the "save your job by not getting shutout" was talking about a them that was losing 24-0 and kicked a field goal late in the game? If so, it pretty much has zero to do with the coach thinking about his job down the road. As molecule has already brought up, it's just trying to get something going for his team. Some sort of positive to take the edge off. It also might be that the other team has put in back ups and is just trying to run out the clock. The FG is just a gentlemans agreement that you've lost and they won't run up the score (or haven't been). Usually at this point both teams are just trying to finish out the game without any injuries.

 
Bojang0301 said:
Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, John Fox and others will never change. Dungy won a SB in spite of himself and he doesn't even realize it. You hit it 100% on the nose about the successful coaches. BB, Riverboat Ron and Tomlin are notorious risk takers as are Sean Peyton, Arians and Pete Carroll. It doesn't always work but they take that extra step to find ways to win.
Another guy that thinks he gets it more than a former player and SB winning coach. Keep fighting the good fight buddy.
 
Bojang0301 said:
Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, John Fox and others will never change. Dungy won a SB in spite of himself and he doesn't even realize it. You hit it 100% on the nose about the successful coaches. BB, Riverboat Ron and Tomlin are notorious risk takers as are Sean Peyton, Arians and Pete Carroll. It doesn't always work but they take that extra step to find ways to win.
Another guy that thinks he gets it more than a former player and SB winning coach. Keep fighting the good fight buddy.
Yeah, I totally agree. Dungy may be a conventionally conservative coach, but to denigrate his whole career is silly. Guy was a consistent winner with two different teams, including one that he turned from a perennial doormat into a contender. He also single-handedly did more than anyone else alive to integrate the NFL coaching ranks by grooming guys like Smith, Edwards, Frazier, Caldwell and Tomlin. And nobody lucks into a Super Bowl victory.

 
Lots of things going on here.

1) Dungy's comments. If anything it seems he is pointing out that the guaranteed possession in OT would simplify the coaching decisions (and gain a larger advantage) for which ever team gets to have the second possession. At the end it seems he is just talking about the hypothetical situations that we talk about when discussing OT formats. "How many times does it have to go back and fourth between guaranteed possessions before it's fair?" kind of thing.

2) The coaches with better teams are more likely to have positive results in higher risk situations which leads to some of the decisions to "go for it." I hate when coaches punt inside the opponents 45. Drives me nuts. I think the risk/reward ratio in these situations is in favour of going for it on anything less than a 4th and 8. However, this has nothing to do with analytics. This isn't about what the numbers say to do it just my personal opinion. And I think that a lot of these coaches don't have the strongest teams so there's other factors that come into play.

3) Human emotions are a very real aspect of the game and these situations. If a team gets stuff on 4th and short they lose a ton of momentum and give it to the other team. Miss a 2-pt conversation, same thing.

4) I don't read Mr. Easterbrook's work but I'm assuming the "save your job by not getting shutout" was talking about a them that was losing 24-0 and kicked a field goal late in the game? If so, it pretty much has zero to do with the coach thinking about his job down the road. As molecule has already brought up, it's just trying to get something going for his team. Some sort of positive to take the edge off. It also might be that the other team has put in back ups and is just trying to run out the clock. The FG is just a gentlemans agreement that you've lost and they won't run up the score (or haven't been). Usually at this point both teams are just trying to finish out the game without any injuries.
First of all, momentum isn't real. Second of all, going for it on 4th down has everything to do with analytics, because all the numbers show that coaches should go for it more frequently than they do.

 
davearm said:
zftcg said:
davearm said:
Was I the only one to go all :confused: :wall: at Dungy's conclusion?

Apparently he's against both-teams-get-a possession because "What it comes down to for me is, at some point you have to play defense and stop the other team."

Uh, coach, under the current rules you don't have to play defense and stop the other team. The Cardinals just demonstrated this vs. GB.
Eh, that was the part I found the least objectionable. I think he was just using the shorthand for, "Don't complain that you never got to touch the ball. If you had played better defense, you would have."
That's just parsing words. It's a ridiculous argument in any event, because only one team is being held to that requirement. The Cardinals didn't have to play any defense at all, let alone good defense.
The logic, such as it is, is that it shouldn't matter whether you're playing offense or defense, so the Cardinals didn't get an advantage in that game. But as Peter King points out, if that were true, teams wouldn't almost always choose the ball when they win the OT coin toss. It's also simple common sense that your expected points would be higher if you have the ball than if you don't.

 
Bojang0301 said:
Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, John Fox and others will never change. Dungy won a SB in spite of himself and he doesn't even realize it. You hit it 100% on the nose about the successful coaches. BB, Riverboat Ron and Tomlin are notorious risk takers as are Sean Peyton, Arians and Pete Carroll. It doesn't always work but they take that extra step to find ways to win.
But that's what's so confounding about it. If the coaches who are more aggressive are also more successful, even if it's not direct causation, why don't other coaches copy those techniques? Hell, you could use those guys as cover: "Coach, why did you go for it on 4th down?" "Well, as I look around this league, I see Belichick going for it all the time, and I figure if it works for him, why shouldn't I do it as well?" I mean, theoretically every coach should be concerned with keeping his job, and the best way to ensure that is by winning as much as possible, so why not do things that improve your chances?

One theory I've heard is that NFL coaches are NOT primarily concerned with preserving their current job. The fact is, 95% of head coaches will eventually get fired no matter what they do. What they're really concerned with is what happens AFTER they get fired. They want to get hired as coordinators, stick around, and hopefully get another shot as HC down the road. And the best way to do that is by being seen as a team player who doesn't rock the boat. (That would also explain why coaches like Belichick, Tomlin and Arians can afford to be more aggressive: there is basically zero chance that any of them will have to work as a coordinator again.)

As I stated upthread, my own theory, which is not mutually exclusive to the one above, is that there's essentially a "natural selection" that results in coaches who think conservatively. Football teams are inherently conservative, hierarchical organizations, and anyone who climbs the greasy pole to get to a HC position is probably going to be conservative. Think of it this way: I have no idea if Chris Kluwe would make a good special-teams coach, but I feel pretty confident in saying that if he ever did get a job, he would approach it in an unconventional way, because he's clearly the kind of guy who identifies as a free-thinker not beholden to tradition. But that's the exact reason no one would ever hire a Chris Kluwe as a coach (well, that plus the fact that he publicly accused his former team of bigotry on his way out the door and got them investigated by the league). The Kluwes of the world get weeded out like a short-necked giraffe.

So when a coach is facing 4th and 1 at the opponent's 40, or when he scores on a Hail Mary on the final play of regulation to pull within one, he doesn't consciously think, "I'm going to punt/kick the XP because, after carefully weighing all the options, that makes the most sense." Everything he's learned over the past two decades in football tells him that the conventional wisdom is to punt/kick in those scenarios, and it's also told him that above all he should follow the CW.

 
Still, I'm hopeful that more coaches will follow the lead of Rivera, who ditched conservatism to save his job and has been rewarded with an extended run of success.
The guy wised up. Good for him. They went for 2 last week with the game in the bag. I love that. Punch the other team in the mouth. This isn't kiddie football here where everyone gets a trophy and we don't want to make the other team cry. This is the NFL. You take risks or you better have a top 5 D. If not, you will be a perpetual loser. That's why I like guys like Tomlin, Belicheck and S. Payton and despise wussies like Fisher, Caldwell and Fox. Oh, I forgot Lovie.
Belichek was dead last in the league in attempting 2 pt conversions. Fox's Bears were 5th from the top.

Arizona was dead last in 4th down attempts. NE went for it on 4th down 1 more time then Detroit.

I'm not sure there's a correlation between risk-taking and winning...

 
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Still, I'm hopeful that more coaches will follow the lead of Rivera, who ditched conservatism to save his job and has been rewarded with an extended run of success.
The guy wised up. Good for him. They went for 2 last week with the game in the bag. I love that. Punch the other team in the mouth. This isn't kiddie football here where everyone gets a trophy and we don't want to make the other team cry. This is the NFL. You take risks or you better have a top 5 D. If not, you will be a perpetual loser. That's why I like guys like Tomlin, Belicheck and S. Payton and despise wussies like Fisher, Caldwell and Fox. Oh, I forgot Lovie.
I doubt this is about punching someone in the mouth. I suspect it's about not passing up the opportunity to execute on a two point play in a live game. It's practice for the next time they need to do it - which will likely really matter.

 
One of my favorite Dungy quotes back in his early days was that the Bucs didn't like using the shotgun because it was an extra risk they didn't want to take.

 
Still, I'm hopeful that more coaches will follow the lead of Rivera, who ditched conservatism to save his job and has been rewarded with an extended run of success.
The guy wised up. Good for him. They went for 2 last week with the game in the bag. I love that. Punch the other team in the mouth. This isn't kiddie football here where everyone gets a trophy and we don't want to make the other team cry. This is the NFL. You take risks or you better have a top 5 D. If not, you will be a perpetual loser. That's why I like guys like Tomlin, Belicheck and S. Payton and despise wussies like Fisher, Caldwell and Fox. Oh, I forgot Lovie.
I doubt this is about punching someone in the mouth. I suspect it's about not passing up the opportunity to execute on a two point play in a live game. It's practice for the next time they need to do it - which will likely really matter.
Actually the irony here is that in all likelihood, Rivera went for two there because that's what "the sheet" says to do in that score/time situation. That same "sheet" that he supposedly threw away.

 
Still, I'm hopeful that more coaches will follow the lead of Rivera, who ditched conservatism to save his job and has been rewarded with an extended run of success.
The guy wised up. Good for him. They went for 2 last week with the game in the bag. I love that. Punch the other team in the mouth. This isn't kiddie football here where everyone gets a trophy and we don't want to make the other team cry. This is the NFL. You take risks or you better have a top 5 D. If not, you will be a perpetual loser. That's why I like guys like Tomlin, Belicheck and S. Payton and despise wussies like Fisher, Caldwell and Fox. Oh, I forgot Lovie.
Belichek was dead last in the league in attempting 2 pt conversions. Fox's Bears were 5th from the top.

Arizona was dead last in 4th down attempts. NE went for it on 4th down 1 more time then Detroit.

I'm not sure there's a correlation between risk-taking and winning...
I had seen that stat on the Pats and two-pointers. My guess was that it was more a function of the fact that they were ahead in most of their games this year. Two-pointers are most often used by teams trying to come back late. I'd be curious to see a game-by-game study of whether the Pats ever passed up an opportunity to go for two in any situations where the numbers recommended it. I know there was one in the Eagles game -- they scored with three minutes left to make it 35-27, then kicked the XP even though the numbers say overwhelmingly that you should go for two in that situation -- but the fact is literally no NFL coaches in history have ever followed that strategy, so I don't think it really says anything about Belichick.

 
Lots of things going on here.

1) Dungy's comments. If anything it seems he is pointing out that the guaranteed possession in OT would simplify the coaching decisions (and gain a larger advantage) for which ever team gets to have the second possession. At the end it seems he is just talking about the hypothetical situations that we talk about when discussing OT formats. "How many times does it have to go back and fourth between guaranteed possessions before it's fair?" kind of thing.

2) The coaches with better teams are more likely to have positive results in higher risk situations which leads to some of the decisions to "go for it." I hate when coaches punt inside the opponents 45. Drives me nuts. I think the risk/reward ratio in these situations is in favour of going for it on anything less than a 4th and 8. However, this has nothing to do with analytics. This isn't about what the numbers say to do it just my personal opinion. And I think that a lot of these coaches don't have the strongest teams so there's other factors that come into play.

3) Human emotions are a very real aspect of the game and these situations. If a team gets stuff on 4th and short they lose a ton of momentum and give it to the other team. Miss a 2-pt conversation, same thing.

4) I don't read Mr. Easterbrook's work but I'm assuming the "save your job by not getting shutout" was talking about a them that was losing 24-0 and kicked a field goal late in the game? If so, it pretty much has zero to do with the coach thinking about his job down the road. As molecule has already brought up, it's just trying to get something going for his team. Some sort of positive to take the edge off. It also might be that the other team has put in back ups and is just trying to run out the clock. The FG is just a gentlemans agreement that you've lost and they won't run up the score (or haven't been). Usually at this point both teams are just trying to finish out the game without any injuries.
First of all, momentum isn't real. Second of all, going for it on 4th down has everything to do with analytics, because all the numbers show that coaches should go for it more frequently than they do.
1) Momentum as I used it, is about emotions of players. That is essentially, their psychological state. Sports psychology is real. The human brain and emotions are real. Those articles (well one article with the second one being more of an amendment) really doesn't help with disproving momentum. I don't what to pick apart the article because it detracts from the overall discussion.

2) I was referring to why I wanted to see teams go for it in that situation and that I didn't get to that conclusion because of some kind of advanced metrics.

 
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Still, I'm hopeful that more coaches will follow the lead of Rivera, who ditched conservatism to save his job and has been rewarded with an extended run of success.
The guy wised up. Good for him. They went for 2 last week with the game in the bag. I love that. Punch the other team in the mouth. This isn't kiddie football here where everyone gets a trophy and we don't want to make the other team cry. This is the NFL. You take risks or you better have a top 5 D. If not, you will be a perpetual loser. That's why I like guys like Tomlin, Belicheck and S. Payton and despise wussies like Fisher, Caldwell and Fox. Oh, I forgot Lovie.
I doubt this is about punching someone in the mouth. I suspect it's about not passing up the opportunity to execute on a two point play in a live game. It's practice for the next time they need to do it - which will likely really matter.
Actually the irony here is that in all likelihood, Rivera went for two there because that's what "the sheet" says to do in that score/time situation. That same "sheet" that he supposedly threw away.
I'm not real sure what the sheet says when you're up 25 points with 5 minutes left. 27 points means you're up 3 TD+2pt conversions and a field goal and 26 would mean they wouldn't need the third 2pt conversion, so maybe you're right but it hardly seemed necessary.

 
Bojang0301 said:
Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, John Fox and others will never change. Dungy won a SB in spite of himself and he doesn't even realize it. You hit it 100% on the nose about the successful coaches. BB, Riverboat Ron and Tomlin are notorious risk takers as are Sean Peyton, Arians and Pete Carroll. It doesn't always work but they take that extra step to find ways to win.
Another guy that thinks he gets it more than a former player and SB winning coach. Keep fighting the good fight buddy.
Hey guy, Barry Switzer and Brian Billick won Superbowls. Dungy was a good coach but Gruden winning with his Tampa team and him winning with a team that almost went undefeated AFTER he left sort of shows he's also an overrated coach. But you have the right to your opinion friend.
 
Bojang0301 said:
Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, John Fox and others will never change. Dungy won a SB in spite of himself and he doesn't even realize it. You hit it 100% on the nose about the successful coaches. BB, Riverboat Ron and Tomlin are notorious risk takers as are Sean Peyton, Arians and Pete Carroll. It doesn't always work but they take that extra step to find ways to win.
Another guy that thinks he gets it more than a former player and SB winning coach. Keep fighting the good fight buddy.
Hey guy, Barry Switzer and Brian Billick won Superbowls. Dungy was a good coach but Gruden winning with his Tampa team and him winning with a team that almost went undefeated AFTER he left sort of shows he's also an overrated coach. But you have the right to your opinion friend.
The funniest thing is I've read a million posts on this board dismissing Gruden's and Caldwell's accomplishments precisely because they just took over someone else's team. IMO, winning (or even making) a Super Bowl requires a whole host of things to come together, so anyone who played a part in that process deserves credit. (Just ask Washington fans what happened when Richie Petitbon took over a Joe Gibbs team two years removed from a Super Bowl win).

 
Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, John Fox and others will never change. Dungy won a SB in spite of himself and he doesn't even realize it. You hit it 100% on the nose about the successful coaches. BB, Riverboat Ron and Tomlin are notorious risk takers as are Sean Peyton, Arians and Pete Carroll. It doesn't always work but they take that extra step to find ways to win.
Another guy that thinks he gets it more than a former player and SB winning coach. Keep fighting the good fight buddy.
Hey guy, Barry Switzer and Brian Billick won Superbowls. Dungy was a good coach but Gruden winning with his Tampa team and him winning with a team that almost went undefeated AFTER he left sort of shows he's also an overrated coach. But you have the right to your opinion friend.
The funniest thing is I've read a million posts on this board dismissing Gruden's and Caldwell's accomplishments precisely because they just took over someone else's team. IMO, winning (or even making) a Super Bowl requires a whole host of things to come together, so anyone who played a part in that process deserves credit. (Just ask Washington fans what happened when Richie Petitbon took over a Joe Gibbs team two years removed from a Super Bowl win).
As a Bucs fan, people just don't see the Bucs needed Gruden to get over the hump. Dungy had 6 seasons and there were no signs they were getting any closer. The offense was terrible and he continued to be loyal to unqualified offensive coordiantors.

 
You actually disagreed with Easterbrook's assertion before you read that from Dungy? Why?
:goodposting:

I think Easterbrook is pretty obviously right when it comes to this particular point. A large majority of NFL head coaches make systematic errors on game day biased against going for it on 4th down. Eventually, somebody is going to come along who makes these decisions in a more statistically rational sense, wins a bunch of games as a result, and overturns the conventional wisdom. We're out of equilibrium right now.
In theory you should be correct but the NFL plays so few games that even if a coach exploits a Moneyball-like inefficiency, it's not going to manifest itself in winning a bunch of games. If the strategically correct calls net you an advantage of 5%, say, you're looking at a little under one game per year while in baseball it might look more like 8 games in a 162 game season. You just won't see it in football, or it will be obscured by dozens of confounding factors.

The only time we see, to quote Silver, the Signal over the Noise, is in these seemingly bizarre, extreme HS and college coaches who exploit the huge variation in quality of their competition by never punting or always kicking onsides. There's no great inefficiency to exploit in the pros, just marginal ones that remain obscured so they will not proliferate.
To digress a bit, another quibble I've had with Easterbrook (haven't read in a couple years) is when he uses a stat like "the average NFL running play gains X yards" to advocate nearly always going for it on 4th and (< X).

The error there is equating "average" with "typical". As an extreme example, if you have 10 running plays that go for 1, 1, -3, 2, 1, 0, 0, -1, 2 and 37, the average of those plays is a gain of 4 yards, but 90% of them would not pick up a 4th and 3. I'd much rather see a stat about the median outcome of rushing attempts, which in the example here would be a 1-yard gain (which is IMO a better indication of the expected outcome).
For RBs, median and mode are almost always 3 and 2 respectively. My guess is that 4th and <= 2 it is better to run and 3+ it is better to pass.

 
In addition to coaches being conservative in nature, there is still more media/fan flack for taking chances than not.

 
In addition to coaches being conservative in nature, there is still more media/fan flack for taking chances than not.
Definitely agree, although I wonder if that's just a short-term thing. I mean, people complain for a week, but long-term coaches are judged by both the team and their fans based on whether they win. I can't think of any coach who got fired because "he just took too many risks". (I also can't think of too many who got fired because they were perceived as too conservative.)

If coaches were being completely rational, they would make decisions that optimized their chances of winning, even if some of those moves went against conventional wisdom, and sit tight through the occasional s###storm when a decision backfired.

 
Overtime's become a funny thing. I'm of the opinion that we've all overthought it, from fans to players to coaches. Reading the above reply sounds more crazy when you start to step back from it and think about how long of a paragraph that was for a relatively basic problem.

I used to be enveloped in one system vs. another like everyone else but when I read Dungy's reply, I immediately think of regulation time too. "If A were to happen, then B, but what if C?" where all of that is happening because of two teams tying in regulation. Riskiness could continue to increase in overtime because of it, or we could be having the same discussion about regulation if the risk really gets pushed further upstream.

I'm now of the opinion that we just extend regulation by a fixed number of minutes as a 5th quarter and whoever is in the lead then wins. If you get the ball, bleed the clock, and kick a FG, so be it. If you quickly get a TD and leave the other team time to score, that's on you to score slower or play defense.

 
nothing with this much $ invested should ever be decided by a coin flip. play a full qtr, if it's still tied, it's a tie. if it's playoffs then start sudden death in the 6th qtr.

 
Lots of things going on here.

1) Dungy's comments. If anything it seems he is pointing out that the guaranteed possession in OT would simplify the coaching decisions (and gain a larger advantage) for which ever team gets to have the second possession. At the end it seems he is just talking about the hypothetical situations that we talk about when discussing OT formats. "How many times does it have to go back and fourth between guaranteed possessions before it's fair?" kind of thing.

2) The coaches with better teams are more likely to have positive results in higher risk situations which leads to some of the decisions to "go for it." I hate when coaches punt inside the opponents 45. Drives me nuts. I think the risk/reward ratio in these situations is in favour of going for it on anything less than a 4th and 8. However, this has nothing to do with analytics. This isn't about what the numbers say to do it just my personal opinion. And I think that a lot of these coaches don't have the strongest teams so there's other factors that come into play.

3) Human emotions are a very real aspect of the game and these situations. If a team gets stuff on 4th and short they lose a ton of momentum and give it to the other team. Miss a 2-pt conversation, same thing.

4) I don't read Mr. Easterbrook's work but I'm assuming the "save your job by not getting shutout" was talking about a them that was losing 24-0 and kicked a field goal late in the game? If so, it pretty much has zero to do with the coach thinking about his job down the road. As molecule has already brought up, it's just trying to get something going for his team. Some sort of positive to take the edge off. It also might be that the other team has put in back ups and is just trying to run out the clock. The FG is just a gentlemans agreement that you've lost and they won't run up the score (or haven't been). Usually at this point both teams are just trying to finish out the game without any injuries.
First of all, momentum isn't real. Second of all, going for it on 4th down has everything to do with analytics, because all the numbers show that coaches should go for it more frequently than they do.
1) Momentum as I used it, is about emotions of players. That is essentially, their psychological state. Sports psychology is real. The human brain and emotions are real.
I disagree! The human brain is fake! It's all in your head! :D

My point is, is there any evidence that, controlling for other factors, teams that go for two and fail do worse over the rest of the game? I mean, obviously not having that point hurts their win percentage, but consider two scenarios:

1. In each of its first two drives, Team A reaches the opponent's 20, stalls out, and kicks a FG. They now lead 6-0 with 5 minutes left in the first quarter.

2. Team B has a three-and-out, gets the ball back, scores, and then goes for two and fails. They also lead 6-0 with 5 minutes left.

If "momentum" as you described it is true, then Team B should have a lower win probability than Team A. Do you really think that's true?

 
Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, John Fox and others will never change. Dungy won a SB in spite of himself and he doesn't even realize it. You hit it 100% on the nose about the successful coaches. BB, Riverboat Ron and Tomlin are notorious risk takers as are Sean Peyton, Arians and Pete Carroll. It doesn't always work but they take that extra step to find ways to win.
But that's what's so confounding about it. If the coaches who are more aggressive are also more successful, even if it's not direct causation, why don't other coaches copy those techniques? Hell, you could use those guys as cover: "Coach, why did you go for it on 4th down?" "Well, as I look around this league, I see Belichick going for it all the time, and I figure if it works for him, why shouldn't I do it as well?" I mean, theoretically every coach should be concerned with keeping his job, and the best way to ensure that is by winning as much as possible, so why not do things that improve your chances?

One theory I've heard is that NFL coaches are NOT primarily concerned with preserving their current job. The fact is, 95% of head coaches will eventually get fired no matter what they do. What they're really concerned with is what happens AFTER they get fired. They want to get hired as coordinators, stick around, and hopefully get another shot as HC down the road. And the best way to do that is by being seen as a team player who doesn't rock the boat. (That would also explain why coaches like Belichick, Tomlin and Arians can afford to be more aggressive: there is basically zero chance that any of them will have to work as a coordinator again.)

As I stated upthread, my own theory, which is not mutually exclusive to the one above, is that there's essentially a "natural selection" that results in coaches who think conservatively. Football teams are inherently conservative, hierarchical organizations, and anyone who climbs the greasy pole to get to a HC position is probably going to be conservative. Think of it this way: I have no idea if Chris Kluwe would make a good special-teams coach, but I feel pretty confident in saying that if he ever did get a job, he would approach it in an unconventional way, because he's clearly the kind of guy who identifies as a free-thinker not beholden to tradition. But that's the exact reason no one would ever hire a Chris Kluwe as a coach (well, that plus the fact that he publicly accused his former team of bigotry on his way out the door and got them investigated by the league). The Kluwes of the world get weeded out like a short-necked giraffe.

So when a coach is facing 4th and 1 at the opponent's 40, or when he scores on a Hail Mary on the final play of regulation to pull within one, he doesn't consciously think, "I'm going to punt/kick the XP because, after carefully weighing all the options, that makes the most sense." Everything he's learned over the past two decades in football tells him that the conventional wisdom is to punt/kick in those scenarios, and it's also told him that above all he should follow the CW.
First of all, this is an excellent post.

To answer the bolded portion above: it's all about variance, or rather the perception of variance.

Doyle Brunson's Super/System is often called "the Bible of poker". Brunson himself wrote the chapter on NL hold'em. What you'll notice about it if you read it is how aggressive an approach he advocates. He recommends betting and raising with good hands and average ones, with made hands and draws, and often with nothing at all. It's a style that would be right at home in a modern-day WSOP tournament.


Brunson published that book in 1979! Yet twenty years later (as you can read in accounts of the day by guys like McManus and Alvarez), people were still playing generally passive poker and Brunson and his ilk were still described as "reckless" and "gamblers". Why? Because even professional poker players of the '80s and '90s didn't have computerized analyses and online databases to draw on. They only knew what they'd seen and what they remembered. And because people remember losses far more vividly than wins, they remembered all those times they pushed all-in on a draw and busted out, even when it was the right play mathematically.

It wasn't until the 2000s - with the dawn of computerized poker programs, rigorous mathematical analysis, and eventually online multi-table poker - that players awoke to the realization that in most cases, the more aggressive, higher-variance play is the more profitable one. Many old pros, who'd honed their craft over literally decades at live tables, spent years getting their asses kicked by the 20-somethings of the Internet era while they learned to adapt to this new, more correctly aggressive game. Some never did, and went broke.

Football analytics are about 15 years behind poker at this stage. For the most part, the data are out there, but today's head coaches are mainly of a generation that weren't raised on it and so don't trust it. They've been standing on that sideline for 30 years now and, dadgummit, they know better than to go for it on 4th-and-2 from their own territory.

As with poker, it's going to take the next generation of analytics-savvy guys rising through the coaching ranks and consistently kicking the asses of the old guard before I expect that to change dramatically.
 
Mr. Irrelevant said:
Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, John Fox and others will never change. Dungy won a SB in spite of himself and he doesn't even realize it. You hit it 100% on the nose about the successful coaches. BB, Riverboat Ron and Tomlin are notorious risk takers as are Sean Peyton, Arians and Pete Carroll. It doesn't always work but they take that extra step to find ways to win.
But that's what's so confounding about it. If the coaches who are more aggressive are also more successful, even if it's not direct causation, why don't other coaches copy those techniques? Hell, you could use those guys as cover: "Coach, why did you go for it on 4th down?" "Well, as I look around this league, I see Belichick going for it all the time, and I figure if it works for him, why shouldn't I do it as well?" I mean, theoretically every coach should be concerned with keeping his job, and the best way to ensure that is by winning as much as possible, so why not do things that improve your chances?

One theory I've heard is that NFL coaches are NOT primarily concerned with preserving their current job. The fact is, 95% of head coaches will eventually get fired no matter what they do. What they're really concerned with is what happens AFTER they get fired. They want to get hired as coordinators, stick around, and hopefully get another shot as HC down the road. And the best way to do that is by being seen as a team player who doesn't rock the boat. (That would also explain why coaches like Belichick, Tomlin and Arians can afford to be more aggressive: there is basically zero chance that any of them will have to work as a coordinator again.)

As I stated upthread, my own theory, which is not mutually exclusive to the one above, is that there's essentially a "natural selection" that results in coaches who think conservatively. Football teams are inherently conservative, hierarchical organizations, and anyone who climbs the greasy pole to get to a HC position is probably going to be conservative. Think of it this way: I have no idea if Chris Kluwe would make a good special-teams coach, but I feel pretty confident in saying that if he ever did get a job, he would approach it in an unconventional way, because he's clearly the kind of guy who identifies as a free-thinker not beholden to tradition. But that's the exact reason no one would ever hire a Chris Kluwe as a coach (well, that plus the fact that he publicly accused his former team of bigotry on his way out the door and got them investigated by the league). The Kluwes of the world get weeded out like a short-necked giraffe.

So when a coach is facing 4th and 1 at the opponent's 40, or when he scores on a Hail Mary on the final play of regulation to pull within one, he doesn't consciously think, "I'm going to punt/kick the XP because, after carefully weighing all the options, that makes the most sense." Everything he's learned over the past two decades in football tells him that the conventional wisdom is to punt/kick in those scenarios, and it's also told him that above all he should follow the CW.
First of all, this is an excellent post.

To answer the bolded portion above: it's all about variance, or rather the perception of variance.

Doyle Brunson's Super/System is often called "the Bible of poker". Brunson himself wrote the chapter on NL hold'em. What you'll notice about it if you read it is how aggressive an approach he advocates. He recommends betting and raising with good hands and average ones, with made hands and draws, and often with nothing at all. It's a style that would be right at home in a modern-day WSOP tournament.


Brunson published that book in 1979! Yet twenty years later (as you can read in accounts of the day by guys like McManus and Alvarez), people were still playing generally passive poker and Brunson and his ilk were still described as "reckless" and "gamblers". Why? Because even professional poker players of the '80s and '90s didn't have computerized analyses and online databases to draw on. They only knew what they'd seen and what they remembered. And because people remember losses far more vividly than wins, they remembered all those times they pushed all-in on a draw and busted out, even when it was the right play mathematically.

It wasn't until the 2000s - with the dawn of computerized poker programs, rigorous mathematical analysis, and eventually online multi-table poker - that players awoke to the realization that in most cases, the more aggressive, higher-variance play is the more profitable one. Many old pros, who'd honed their craft over literally decades at live tables, spent years getting their asses kicked by the 20-somethings of the Internet era while they learned to adapt to this new, more correctly aggressive game. Some never did, and went broke.

Football analytics are about 15 years behind poker at this stage. For the most part, the data are out there, but today's head coaches are mainly of a generation that weren't raised on it and so don't trust it. They've been standing on that sideline for 30 years now and, dadgummit, they know better than to go for it on 4th-and-2 from their own territory.

As with poker, it's going to take the next generation of analytics-savvy guys rising through the coaching ranks and consistently kicking the asses of the old guard before I expect that to change dramatically.
Interesting. I didn't know that about poker. Sounds like a similar path to what happened in baseball.

I think there are a number of reasons analytics continue to be ignored. One is, as I mentioned, the inherent conservativeness of the sport. Another, as pecorino mentioned upthread, is the smaller sample size. But related to that is the fact that, unlike poker or baseball, football is not made up of a series of discrete, repeatable processes. On every play there are a million interconnected things going on at once, which gives skeptics an easy dodge. How many times have we heard, "The numbers may say you should do that in the abstract, but in this case the team was winning, or losing, or it was the fourth quarter, or the wind was blowing southeasterly at more than 10 mph during a waxing crescent moon." And as Bill Barnwell has pointed out, these arguments are almost always deployed as a rationalizations for making the conservative, CW-approved move. It never works the other way around.

That said, I do agree with you that football will probably come along eventually. As I said in another thread, I keep coming back to the Gandhi quote "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." I feel like over the past decade, football has moved from Stage 1 to somewhere between Stage 2 or 3. Dan Quinn may have kicked a FG on 4th and goal from the 1 when he was down 4, but he took a lot of flack for it and was forced to justify his move. (Then again, Belichick also took a lot of flack for going for it twice during the AFCCG.)

The two things going on right now that could move the ball forward on analytics are a) Rivera winning the SB, and other coaches starting to copy his tactics, and b) DePodesta succeeding in Cleveland. It will happen eventually, but either of those could accelerate the process.

 
zftcg said:
because all the numbers show that coaches should go for it more frequently than they do.
I disagree! The human brain is fake! It's all in your head! :D

My point is, is there any evidence that, controlling for other factors, teams that go for two and fail do worse over the rest of the game? I mean, obviously not having that point hurts their win percentage, but consider two scenarios:

1. In each of its first two drives, Team A reaches the opponent's 20, stalls out, and kicks a FG. They now lead 6-0 with 5 minutes left in the first quarter.

2. Team B has a three-and-out, gets the ball back, scores, and then goes for two and fails. They also lead 6-0 with 5 minutes left.

If "momentum" as you described it is true, then Team B should have a lower win probability than Team A. Do you really think that's true?
In the situation that you described (where we assume all other factors are equal) I would guess that momentum would be basically equal in both situations.

However, I am willing to concede that mental momentum in the NFL is inconclusive. I'm also willing to keep an open mind on the subject but I don't think there has been proper testing on the subject to say on way or the other. Plus, I don't want to clog up this thread with one aspect. Besides, I'm sure we will have enough to "discuss" in my next post.

Also, this link might be better than the one you used for "all the numbers." I just say this because the link to the numbers in the article you referred me to, doesn't work anymore. From this article;

End Notes-The 37 yard line is the boundary between FGs and punts

-This analysis only applies to ‘typical’ game situations when the score is relatively close, time is not expiring, and weather is not a large factor. With time expiring or if one team has a large lead, a different type of analysis is required. An analysis based on Win Probability can be generalized to any game situation.

-This type of analysis can be tailored to any team’s specific characteristics, or opponent characteristics. For example, the Expected Points curve, 4th down conversion probability, and FG range and accuracy can be customized to produce a chart specific to a particular game.
 
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Mr. Irrelevant said:
Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, John Fox and others will never change. Dungy won a SB in spite of himself and he doesn't even realize it. You hit it 100% on the nose about the successful coaches. BB, Riverboat Ron and Tomlin are notorious risk takers as are Sean Peyton, Arians and Pete Carroll. It doesn't always work but they take that extra step to find ways to win.
But that's what's so confounding about it. If the coaches who are more aggressive are also more successful, even if it's not direct causation, why don't other coaches copy those techniques? Hell, you could use those guys as cover: "Coach, why did you go for it on 4th down?" "Well, as I look around this league, I see Belichick going for it all the time, and I figure if it works for him, why shouldn't I do it as well?" I mean, theoretically every coach should be concerned with keeping his job, and the best way to ensure that is by winning as much as possible, so why not do things that improve your chances?

One theory I've heard is that NFL coaches are NOT primarily concerned with preserving their current job. The fact is, 95% of head coaches will eventually get fired no matter what they do. What they're really concerned with is what happens AFTER they get fired. They want to get hired as coordinators, stick around, and hopefully get another shot as HC down the road. And the best way to do that is by being seen as a team player who doesn't rock the boat. (That would also explain why coaches like Belichick, Tomlin and Arians can afford to be more aggressive: there is basically zero chance that any of them will have to work as a coordinator again.)

As I stated upthread, my own theory, which is not mutually exclusive to the one above, is that there's essentially a "natural selection" that results in coaches who think conservatively. Football teams are inherently conservative, hierarchical organizations, and anyone who climbs the greasy pole to get to a HC position is probably going to be conservative. Think of it this way: I have no idea if Chris Kluwe would make a good special-teams coach, but I feel pretty confident in saying that if he ever did get a job, he would approach it in an unconventional way, because he's clearly the kind of guy who identifies as a free-thinker not beholden to tradition. But that's the exact reason no one would ever hire a Chris Kluwe as a coach (well, that plus the fact that he publicly accused his former team of bigotry on his way out the door and got them investigated by the league). The Kluwes of the world get weeded out like a short-necked giraffe.

So when a coach is facing 4th and 1 at the opponent's 40, or when he scores on a Hail Mary on the final play of regulation to pull within one, he doesn't consciously think, "I'm going to punt/kick the XP because, after carefully weighing all the options, that makes the most sense." Everything he's learned over the past two decades in football tells him that the conventional wisdom is to punt/kick in those scenarios, and it's also told him that above all he should follow the CW.
First of all, this is an excellent post.

To answer the bolded portion above: it's all about variance, or rather the perception of variance.

Doyle Brunson's Super/System is often called "the Bible of poker". Brunson himself wrote the chapter on NL hold'em. What you'll notice about it if you read it is how aggressive an approach he advocates. He recommends betting and raising with good hands and average ones, with made hands and draws, and often with nothing at all. It's a style that would be right at home in a modern-day WSOP tournament.


Brunson published that book in 1979! Yet twenty years later (as you can read in accounts of the day by guys like McManus and Alvarez), people were still playing generally passive poker and Brunson and his ilk were still described as "reckless" and "gamblers". Why? Because even professional poker players of the '80s and '90s didn't have computerized analyses and online databases to draw on. They only knew what they'd seen and what they remembered. And because people remember losses far more vividly than wins, they remembered all those times they pushed all-in on a draw and busted out, even when it was the right play mathematically.

It wasn't until the 2000s - with the dawn of computerized poker programs, rigorous mathematical analysis, and eventually online multi-table poker - that players awoke to the realization that in most cases, the more aggressive, higher-variance play is the more profitable one. Many old pros, who'd honed their craft over literally decades at live tables, spent years getting their asses kicked by the 20-somethings of the Internet era while they learned to adapt to this new, more correctly aggressive game. Some never did, and went broke.

Football analytics are about 15 years behind poker at this stage. For the most part, the data are out there, but today's head coaches are mainly of a generation that weren't raised on it and so don't trust it. They've been standing on that sideline for 30 years now and, dadgummit, they know better than to go for it on 4th-and-2 from their own territory.

As with poker, it's going to take the next generation of analytics-savvy guys rising through the coaching ranks and consistently kicking the asses of the old guard before I expect that to change dramatically.
Interesting. I didn't know that about poker. Sounds like a similar path to what happened in baseball.

I think there are a number of reasons analytics continue to be ignored. One is, as I mentioned, the inherent conservativeness of the sport. Another, as pecorino mentioned upthread, is the smaller sample size. But related to that is the fact that, unlike poker or baseball, football is not made up of a series of discrete, repeatable processes. Yep. Nailed it. On every play there are a million interconnected things going on at once, which gives skeptics an easy dodge. How many times have we heard, "The numbers may say you should do that in the abstract, but in this case the team was winning, or losing, or it was the fourth quarter, or the wind was blowing southeasterly at more than 10 mph during a waxing crescent moon." And as Bill Barnwell has pointed out, these arguments are almost always deployed as a rationalizations for making the conservative, CW-approved move. It never works the other way around. This doesn't make sense. Those are arguments against going strictly off of analytics to be aggressive, so of course it won't work the other way around. That's just a dirty linguistics trick. :P

That said, I do agree with you that football will probably come along eventually. As I said in another thread, I keep coming back to the Gandhi quote "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." I feel like over the past decade, football has moved from Stage 1 to somewhere between Stage 2 or 3. Dan Quinn may have kicked a FG on 4th and goal from the 1 when he was down 4, but he took a lot of flack for it and was forced to justify his move. (Then again, Belichick also took a lot of flack for going for it twice during the AFCCG.)

The two things going on right now that could move the ball forward on analytics are a) Rivera winning the SB, and other coaches starting to copy his tactics, and b) DePodesta succeeding in Cleveland. It will happen eventually, but either of those could accelerate the process.
 
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