Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Tebow isn't even a top 10 QB MVP.
Mods> Time to lock this up.
Mods> Time to lock this up.
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Tim Tebow #2 MVP? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rizzler
- Start date
SharkBait
Footballguy
I give props to the Denver Broncos defense for giving up 13,13,10,24, and 15 in those 5 wins. The whole Tebow thing is a joke. They are winning despite this guy. And I laugh at the fact that he's only thrown one pick because his throws are so bad they aren't even in the zip code of the intended receiver and therefore the cover guys.
But hey, he goes to a knee and is sappy in his interviews so let's buy his jerseys and make this guy a fortune. He reminds me of a cheesy televangelist.
But hey, he goes to a knee and is sappy in his interviews so let's buy his jerseys and make this guy a fortune. He reminds me of a cheesy televangelist.
rizzler
Footballguy
Chicago Hooligan
Footballguy
Football Outsiders calculates his value as lower than TJ Yates's for this week. Awesome.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
No, it isn't. He is being carried by a defense.In no particular order:
1) Rodgers
2) Brady
3) Brees
4) Romo
5) Dalton
6) Manning
7) Schaub
8) Ryan
9) Stafford
10) Ben
11) Hasslebeck
12) Cutler
13) Smith
An argument could be made that Newton is also more valuable.
Mods> Its time.
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ivnabru
Footballguy
Schaub and Cutler? Really 2 guys that are out most of the 2nd half of the season? Come on, it's not that hard to make an argument with 10 without being ridiculous.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Oh, but Tebow can miss the first half of the season and be ahead of those two? As of right now, they have both been more valuable to their teams. And if you really can't grasp that, throw them out and Tebow is still at best 12th.
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To me the value of those two will be seen as much in the next few weeks as it was in the first part of the season. The Texans are 1-0 without Schaub (against a bad team), Bears are 0-1 without Cutler. If both teams tank the rest of the season (possible) then I think the value they have to their teams becomes even more clear than it was with them playing. With Tebow, they were 1-4 without 5-1 with. I hear where you are coming from in terms of seeing the value they have when they are playing, but I think an argument can be made that you can certainly see the value of them from how they were (or are) without their presence as well. That is not to say that Manning should get the MVP (his value is clear at this point) but in a case like these I think you can make an argument that value without the player is made more evident. With Cutler and Schaub their value may become more and more evident as the season continues without them. JMO.
SpurrierisisGod
Footballguy
Then leave the thread. You come off as a whiner.The original question comes back to what defines the MVP award? It's been discussed but I don't ever remember seeing a conclusion.
It does appear that the Broncos would be worse off without him in the lineup. Is that the MVP (or #2)? Or is it video game stats that win the MVP?
Honest question (and not an argument for Tebow as MVP):
Which team fairs better the rest of the way?
Green Bay with Flynn or
Denver with Brady Quinn
N.O. with whoever is behind Brees
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ivnabru
Footballguy
I guess I can't grasp that because the thread is posing a hypothetical that the Broncos make the playoffs. Which I don't think will happen, but that's the situation we're discussing.So back to the original topic instead of the sidetrack that we're on right now. Do you think that if the Broncos make the playoffs with Tebow as their starting QB you'd still put Schaub and Cutler above him?
Road Warriors
Footballguy
Interesting thought exercise...My first thought is GB fares the best from this list. I've seen a little of Matt Flynn, and he appears to be an NFL caliber QB, who, when combined with the GB receiving corps, should still be able to move the ball effectively. Think Matt Cassel.Very difficult to rank the next two, IMO. We've seen very little of Quinn or Daniels ( though I saw some of Daniels in college ). What we've seen from Quinn is he isn't a very good NFL QB. The question is can he protect the ball and replace the yardage Tebow is generating on the ground through the air in order to continue to move the Den offense at least as effectively as under Tebow? Looking over his stats, I doubt it. He's thrown nearly 1:1 ratio TD:INT, has just over a 50% completion rate with a very low YPA, which says to me he's throwing short, high percentage passes and is still missing alot. Chase Daniels is an undersized, moderately mobile QB with ( IIRC from college ) decent arm and accuracy. However, the NO offense is run by one of the top 3 QBs in the league, with years of experience in reading the D and finding the right receiver. I think the NO offense is similar to NE or IND ( under Manning ) where a ton of the offensive responsibility is given to the QB to read and adjust. I would expect a lesser skilled QB with virtually no experience at the NFL level to struggle in NO. I would have to rank them 1. GB2. DEN3. NO
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
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Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
He'd be neck and neck with Cutler and Schaub. Do the Texans make the playoffs with Leinart or Yates starting all year? Think Hanie takes the Bears to the playoffs? Tebow is doing nothing special to be considered for MVP. Von Miller? Yup.
ivnabru
Footballguy
The Texans might have a shot. They're in a really bad division with a ton of talent. Do they go anywhere in the playoffs with TJ Yates or Brody Croyle or whoever else they plug in. I highly doubt it. But I bet with a terrible QB they still have a shot at .500 or so in that division.Da Bears probably aren't in the playoffs this year. How is Cutler neck and neck playing half a season?
Come on are you really being serious?
We're not talking today, we're talking a guy who takes over the 2nd best candidate for the Luck sweepstates after 5 games and takes them to the playoffs.
Big_Russel
Footballguy
To Christians he is. To heathens he isn’t. /thread.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Oh, this is where we play make believe? I gotcha. Yes, when Tebow leads the Broncos to 5 more wins and runs for 100+ yards a game and throws for 300+ yards a game then he'll be my MVP. Completely agree with you.
ivnabru
Footballguy
Did you miss the first post of the thread which said if the Broncos make the playoffs is Tebow an MVP candidate?
Hairy Snowman
Footballguy
Obviously not. He just came on to bash Tebow. He's been going off on Tebow since he started his "contributions".Did you miss the first post of the thread which said if the Broncos make the playoffs is Tebow an MVP candidate?
shnikies
Footballguy
The Bronocs have a pretty good shot at winning the division with 9 wins. No, I do not think Tebow is an MVP candidate regardless.
Spanky24
Footballguy
Awesome stuff. Come into a Tebow thread to trash on it and than jumps in on a conversation with no idea what the topic is about.Did you miss the first post of the thread which said if the Broncos make the playoffs is Tebow an MVP candidate?
Run It Up
Footballguy
#2 mvp, not someone on the Patriots offense or Ray Rice. Yeah ok, lmfao /thread.
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Jericho34
Footballguy
I think a grave injustice was done to Trent Dilfer in 2000. Clearly he should have been awarded the MVP, not Marshall Faulk. He won games. And he kept winning them. And he won some more. I don't know how he did it, but he just won. Some people are just winners, and boy oh boy, was Dilfer a winner. He won the Ravens all the way to Super Bowl Champions, he was such a winner. Some people said it was the defense and the running game, but they are haters.Did you miss the first post of the thread which said if the Broncos make the playoffs is Tebow an MVP candidate?
Pretty sure Tebow led them in Rushing today.I think a grave injustice was done to Trent Dilfer in 2000. Clearly he should have been awarded the MVP, not Marshall Faulk. He won games. And he kept winning them. And he won some more. I don't know how he did it, but he just won. Some people are just winners, and boy oh boy, was Dilfer a winner. He won the Ravens all the way to Super Bowl Champions, he was such a winner. Some people said it was the defense and the running game, but they are haters.Did you miss the first post of the thread which said if the Broncos make the playoffs is Tebow an MVP candidate?
David Yudkin
Footballguy
If Aaron Rodgers is a unanimous MVP (which there is a high probability he will be), then there will not be anyone finishing second in the balloting. There are only first place MVP votes. So pick anyone in the league and call him the #2 MVP . . . cause it won't matter.
Jericho34
Footballguy
Indeed...and I'm pretty sure the Broncos wouldn't have won today without those 40 rushing yards, or whatever it was....even though they didn't appear to have anything to do with the Broncos' win. That's the essence of the MVP: he leads his team to wins in ways that can't be verified empirically. You just have to accept on faith that the MVP is the MVP. So while the haters might single out Vonn Miller and the Bronco defense as the reason the Broncos won, or perhaps miscues by the Bears' back-up quarterback and back-up running back, you can't deny that the Broncos won today and that Tebow was the quarterback. Thus, Tebow is a winner. Because the MVP is a winner, Tebow is MVP. Very straight-forward.Pretty sure Tebow led them in Rushing today.I think a grave injustice was done to Trent Dilfer in 2000. Clearly he should have been awarded the MVP, not Marshall Faulk. He won games. And he kept winning them. And he won some more. I don't know how he did it, but he just won. Some people are just winners, and boy oh boy, was Dilfer a winner. He won the Ravens all the way to Super Bowl Champions, he was such a winner. Some people said it was the defense and the running game, but they are haters.Did you miss the first post of the thread which said if the Broncos make the playoffs is Tebow an MVP candidate?
Kev4029
Footballguy
I could see somebody voting for Tebow just to make a story of themselves.
ivnabru
Footballguy
There might be a slight difference between the 2000 Ravens defense which might have been the best ever and the 2011 Broncos defense which is ranked 24th in yards allowed and 24th in points allowed.Tebow also has much better stats than Dilfer did. Unless we want to pretend completion percentage is the only stat that matters with QBs and ignore QB Rating, Passing Yards (which Dilfer did slightly better through 8), TDs, INTs and rushing stats.I think a grave injustice was done to Trent Dilfer in 2000. Clearly he should have been awarded the MVP, not Marshall Faulk. He won games. And he kept winning them. And he won some more. I don't know how he did it, but he just won. Some people are just winners, and boy oh boy, was Dilfer a winner. He won the Ravens all the way to Super Bowl Champions, he was such a winner. Some people said it was the defense and the running game, but they are haters.Did you miss the first post of the thread which said if the Broncos make the playoffs is Tebow an MVP candidate?
Warrior
Footballguy
I don't get it.Dilfer had the #1 defense and a solid running game.Tebow has the #20+ defense and IS the running game.How do they compare in any way?I think a grave injustice was done to Trent Dilfer in 2000. Clearly he should have been awarded the MVP, not Marshall Faulk. He won games. And he kept winning them. And he won some more. I don't know how he did it, but he just won. Some people are just winners, and boy oh boy, was Dilfer a winner. He won the Ravens all the way to Super Bowl Champions, he was such a winner. Some people said it was the defense and the running game, but they are haters.Did you miss the first post of the thread which said if the Broncos make the playoffs is Tebow an MVP candidate?
proninja
Footballguy
Don't confuse him with the factsI don't get it.Dilfer had the #1 defense and a solid running game.Tebow has the #20+ defense and IS the running game.How do they compare in any way?I think a grave injustice was done to Trent Dilfer in 2000. Clearly he should have been awarded the MVP, not Marshall Faulk. He won games. And he kept winning them. And he won some more. I don't know how he did it, but he just won. Some people are just winners, and boy oh boy, was Dilfer a winner. He won the Ravens all the way to Super Bowl Champions, he was such a winner. Some people said it was the defense and the running game, but they are haters.Did you miss the first post of the thread which said if the Broncos make the playoffs is Tebow an MVP candidate?
Hairy Snowman
Footballguy
Ultimate - In all honesty - do you think the Packers would win any games without Rogers?Now, in all honesty, what about the Broncos?Who is more valuable?And you have to play to be MVP -
I agree a guy who took over a pathetic looking 2-6 team and has turned them around, winning 80% of his games and leading them to a possible playoff berth should be a candidate for MVP. without him, their team is near the Luck sweepstakes, with him they are winning like Super Bowl contenders
this is the John Skelton for MVP thread right?
this is the John Skelton for MVP thread right?
I could see numerous voters thinking along these lines . . . and Tebow winning as a result.
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ChargerPride
Footballguy
Any QB can throw 3 yard passes and have his WR or Backs run for an additional 5 to 10 yards. Thats all he does and runs a little. He is the most overrated QB I have ever seen. Tired of hearing the Tebow hype. He's everybody's Justin Bieber. I guarentee next year, he will be a flop, and sitting on the bench after week 8.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
No. Thats Cam Newton.
lol, I guess you have not seen Cam Newton play this year? he leads the league in deep pass attempts according to Pro Football Focus. It's okay to like Tebow and not say crazy things like comparing him to Cam Newton
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
If I voted today I would vote Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees and then Tim Tebow.
EBF
Footballguy
Most overrated player in the league right now AINEC. Today was another dud with 13 points on the board and less than 6 yards per attempt on 40+ throws. His schedule and his defense have been unbelievably friendly. If Cutler plays, Chicago wins and the Tebow silliness is be dialed back a couple notches.
He may improve eventually, but right now he's Trent Edwards with a little bit of rushing ability. The mirage will end with a blowout loss early in the playoffs, IMO.
He may improve eventually, but right now he's Trent Edwards with a little bit of rushing ability. The mirage will end with a blowout loss early in the playoffs, IMO.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Plus, there is bound to be a knucklehead or two from up in the Northeast somewhere who gives their vote to anyone but Aaron Rodgers just because they don't want him to be an unanimous MVP like Brady was last year, even though Rodgers is just as deserving of that honor this year as Brady was last.'Kev4029 said:
Isn't this an example of moving the goal posts?When Tebow took over as the starter, if you'd told people that the mirage would end with a loss in the playoffs, they would have thought you were nuts. Making the playoffs doesn't constitute a mirage; it constitutes wildly, colossally, magnificently outperforming expectations.
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
It's an award for the most valuable player. Passing stats aren't valuable if you don't win. Cam Newton has amazing stats...and the Panthers are going nowhere. Stats have little value in the NFL. If the Broncos were winning despite Tebow, you could argue he has nothing to do with the wins. But it's pretty clear that he plays a role in every win.Tebow definitely deserves some consideration for MVP. I'd put it Rodgers, Brees, Brady, then Tebow + Flacco (really impresed with Flacco's poise and maturity this year).
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
Probably not because 1st rd picks are considered gold, but a 3rd for sure. Maybe a 2nd. Either way, Elway would be run out of town if he got rid of Tebow.
EBF
Footballguy
I wouldn't say he's outperforming expectations. He's completing 48.5% of his passes for 6.5 yards per attempt. Those numbers rank near the bottom of the league. In fact, he is the least accurate starting QB in the NFL. The only thing he's doing well is avoiding turnovers and winning games. You have to give him credit for the former. As for the latter, I think there's a correlation vs. causation issue. Is Denver winning games because of Tebow or in spite of him? I'm willing to buy the idea that his running skills and his passion might benefit the entire team, but for the most part he's been the beneficiary of a soft schedule and a dominant defense. It's easy for a QB to win games when he only has to engineer one or two scoring drives per game. Denver has played a really soft schedule since Tebow took over and the few good teams they faced (NYJ and SD) laid eggs on offense.
If you think Tebow is MVP then you might as well move Mark Sanchez and Alex Smith to the top of your ballots. It's a joke, really.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
What guys like you don't understand is that Tebow is willing the whole team to victory. Starting the game 3 for 16? Motivational ploy (these have always been important to the Broncos, dating back to Shanahan's ploys to motivate Tatum Bell). Throwing that costly INT in the 4th quarter? Just trying to get his defense focused. Arranging with the man upstairs to give the Bears the coin toss to start overtime? Just wanted the defense to force a turnover so they'd feel like they were part of the win. Now that, my friend, is an MVP.
