Time to grab Helu? Skins blog breaks down last week (1 Viewer)

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Now we all know this is Shannahan. But the snap counts of the lat game are truly mind blowing. I am surprised I haven't heard more about it.

wow. This is nuts. This looks like a strong tell that Helu will carry more of the load than Torrain going fwd. Real Redskins Blog

Helu finished vs. the Panthers, will he start against the Bills?



By Rich Tandler

With Tim Hightower out for the season and a third running back for the roster yet to be determined, most are assuming that Ryan Torain will start at running back for the Redskins when they play the Bills in Toronto on Sunday.

A look at how playing time was distributed last week, however, might indicate that that's not the case.

I knew that Torain did not play much last week but when looking at the snap counts done by Ryan O'Halloran at CSNwashington.com I was surprised to see that he played all of three snaps.

He carried to ball twice, once in each of the first two series of the second half, for a net of minus-five years (one for minus-seven, the other for two) so he was in there for one other snap.

Roy Helu, however, saw plenty of action. He played 33 of the 67 offensive snaps. That is two more than Hightower had and, of course, 30 more than Torain.

Helu played every snap of the Redskins' final four possessions while Torain watched.

To be sure, the Redskins were trailing by at least 10 on each of those last four possessions and perhaps Mike and Kyle Shanahan wanted Helu, who is more of a home run threat than Torain, in the lineup for those reasons. But that also means that they trust Helu in pass protection since they were in all-passing mode at that point in time.

The game was getting out of hand from midway through the third quarter on but it was never true garbage time. While it never really felt like the Redskins really had a chance to catch the Panthers, Helu wasn't in the game just because the coaches wanted to give the rookie a little work. He was in because they thought Helu gave them the best chance to score some points.

The fact that the coaches preferred Helu over Torain for the last quarter and a half does not necessarily mean that they will have the same preference at the start of next Sunday's game. But given how the Panthers game ended up it would not be at all surprising to see Helu lined up to take the first snap against the Bills.

Ryan Ohalloran Blog Cited above

Playing time totals and observations from the Redskins' 33-20 loss at Carolina on Sunday:

OFFENSE (67 snaps)



RB:Roy Helu 33, Tim Hightower 31, Darrel Young (FB) 25, Ryan Torain 3.

TE:Fred Davis 64, Logan Paulsen 14.

WR:Jabar Gaffney 47, Anthony Armstrong 44, Terrence Austin 37, Niles Paul 25, Santana Moss 11, Leonard Hankerson 1.

* QB John Beck and the offensive line played all 67 snaps.

Playing time analysis:



RB:Hightower started and played all but six of 34 first-half snaps but departed on the second series of the third quarter with a knee injury. … The emphasis on two-back formations was shown by Young's increased playing time, which also had him in motion to receiver as well. … Helu played each snap of the last four possessions.

 

[kimbosliced]

This is interesting and would be just like Shanny. Torrain has one bad week and literally 1 bad carry and he's pulled. This guy is a nut.

A few things to keep in mind. Helu MAY know the 2 minute offense better, he could be the better pass catcher and could be better at picking up the blitz. FWIW, didn't he have less carries?

I'm a Helu owner that sold Torrain this week. I hope Helu busts out a BIG game so I can dump him. I can't stand his Shanny business. Torrain's lack of touches killed me for 2 weeks.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

This is interesting and would be just like Shanny. Torrain has one bad week and literally 1 bad carry and he's pulled. This guy is a nut. A few things to keep in mind. Helu MAY know the 2 minute offense better, he could be the better pass catcher and could be better at picking up the blitz. FWIW, didn't he have less carries? I'm a Helu owner that sold Torrain this week. I hope Helu busts out a BIG game so I can dump him. I can't stand his Shanny business. Torrain's lack of touches killed me for 2 weeks.

Even so that bodes well since everyone knows the skinds really do stink/are a paper tiger and will be behind in most games this year anyway.

 

[Breesisdaman]

The skins abandoned the run late in the game. Even though Helu was in for all those snaps he touched the ball a whopping 3 times. That doesn't say much IMO.

 

[jbz]

I wouldn't look too much into those snap counts. Hightower was getting the majority of the running plays. Torain is more of Hightower's replacement whereas Helu is change of pace/3rd down RB. Torain doesn't fill those roles at all. So factoring in Hightower was playing well the majority of the game and the Skins were trailing once he got hurt, it makes sense to see the snap count look like this. Come Sunday, the Skins know they can't get into a shoot out with the Bills when they are down 5 starters on offense. I'm sure the plan will be to run Torain early. How many carries he gets then depends on how the flow of the game is. If the Skins get down again, all bets off for Torain.

 

[macknova]

Who knows with Shanahan. Long-term, I'd prefer Helu, just because he's coming in with a clean slate, whereas Torain already has a few blemishes.

Helu seems like he'll be the 3rd down back for sure, which takes care of a lot of what Hightower did. Hightower was a very solid 3rd down back who could pick up blitzes and catch the ball. Torain isn't as good at that, so Helu will most likely play that role at the minimum. The rest is up to Shanny.

 

[glumpy]

Awesome info! dammit. I've got Torain, and with byes this week he's starting for my squad for the first time. Maybe the last time.

I love me a Shanahan RB but I sure hate the Shanahanigans.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

apparently according to this thread at FFT

I may be wrong but I'm hearing Helu is already better than Torain at pass blocking, blitz pickup, and recieving out of the backfield. What people also need to remember is that he is no scat back. He brings it at about 220 lbs and has a 40 time in the low 4.40s. It'd be nice to see what he could do with a full load over an entire game and whether he can handle it.

That sentiment seems to jibe with the disparity from the last game. So while Shanny won't name a starter etc, if you think The bills will put up points on the skins then the play is Helu.If you think the skins will go up early and run the bal/kill the clock, maybe torain. I think @ BUF the former is far more likely.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Oct. 27, 2011 6:17 p.m. - by John Keim - Redskins quiet on starting RB vs. Buffalo<br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; text-align: -webkit-left; background-color: rgb(251, 251, 253); ">The Redskins remain mum on who will start at RB vs. Buffalo: Ryan Torain or Roy Helu. The latter played much more in the second half than Torain, partly because the Redskins had to pass a lot more and Helu is better out of the backfield. Helu has improved in protection as well. But Torain remains an effective runner. Redskins RapidReports

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

from a post at the huddle forums

Helu:Week.....Snaps played.....run......pass....run block......pass block1.....................3(66)............1..............2..............0....................02....................27(85)..........10.........13................1...................33...................26(63)............5...........18...............0...................34...................12(72)............8.............3...............0...................16...................27(60)............2............24...............1.................07...................34(69)...........1.............23................1................9Here is what I see....1st I think we can throw out week 1 since it doesn't show anything and the rook was probably just not ready in the staffs eyes.2nd Toss out week 4...it is the one off to how the other games look for Helu....not saying that you can just dismiss a game but with how strong the trend is in the other 4 games versus week 4 I think it is safe to exclude it for this exercise.3rd look at the snaps played in weeks 2,3,6 & 7 all are very similar...the number in parentheses is total offensive snaps...4th His RUSHING snaps played don't look to be increasing.OK, now to make heads and tails of the fact that Helu played 34 of 69 snaps last week, while Torain only played in 4 of 69....what I see is that the coaching staff looks like they abandoned the run and they needed to have extra protection for Beck, as can be seen by the 9 pass blocking snaps that Helu played in.Hightower played in 31 snaps before he went down with injury.at 10:54 of the 3rd quarter.After that the Skins ran 25 plays....here is the breakdown of those plays(only two were running plays, and they happend on the 2nd and 4th play after Hightower went down...one was a run by Torain and the other the scramble for TD by Beck)...Look at the down and distances...not many "running downs"....on top of that the score was 16-6 when Hightower went down...then that series the Skins did score but Carolina came right back with a TD and went up 23-13 with 5:57 left in the 3rd quarter...skins next series they went 3 and out, all passes....next series, the first of the 4th quarter carolina scores and pushes the lead to 30-13...when the skins get the ball back there is 8:13 left to play in the game and they are down 17 points...they abandoned the run and used Helu in the passing game...just as they had in games 2,3 & 6. Torain didn't not touch the ball because Shanny didn't trust him or because he liked Helu better....Torain didn't touch the ball because of how the game played out....after looking at this more in depth I think that Torain is a better play than many might realize...the only major concern I have is that the Bills could get up big early and that would kill Torain and hence mean more time for Helu.2-6-CAR32 (10:27) J.Beck pass short middle to L.Paulsen to CAR 8 for 24 yards (J.Anderson; J.Phillips).1-8-CAR8 (9:47) R.Torain left end to CAR 15 for -7 yards (J.Anderson, D.Connor).2-15-CAR15 (9:03) J.Beck pass short left to F.Davis to CAR 4 for 11 yards (C.Munnerlyn).3-4-CAR4 (8:20) J.Beck scrambles left end for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN.1-10-WAS20 (2:17) J.Beck pass incomplete short right to A.Armstrong.2-10-WAS20 (2:12) J.Beck pass incomplete short right to F.Davis.3-10-WAS20 (2:07) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass short left to T.Austin to WAS 28 for 8 yards (S.Martin).4-2-WAS28 (1:46) S.Rocca punts1-10-WAS20 (8:13) J.Beck pass incomplete short left to T.Austin (G.Hardy).2-10-WAS20 (8:08) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass short middle to N.Paul to WAS 34 for 14 yards (D.Butler).1-10-WAS34 (7:37) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass short left to J.Gaffney to WAS 49 for 15 yards (J.Anderson).1-10-WAS49 (7:08) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass short right to F.Davis to CAR 34 for 17 yards (C.Godfrey).1-10-CAR34 (6:35) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass short right to F.Davis to CAR 20 for 14 yards (T.Williams).1-10-CAR20 (6:07) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass incomplete short left to T.Austin (C.Munnerlyn).2-10-CAR20 (6:03) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass incomplete short right to A.Armstrong.3-10-CAR20 (5:58) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass short left to N.Paul to CAR 9 for 11 yards (D.Butler). Carolina challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was Upheld. (Timeout #2.)1-9-CAR9 (5:52) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass short left to R.Helu to CAR 7 for 2 yards (T.Williams).2-7-CAR7 (5:12) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass short middle to F.Davis for 7 yards, TOUCHDOWN. The Replay Assistant challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was Upheld.1-10-WAS12 (3:51) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass short middle to T.Austin to WAS 24 for 12 yards (A.Applewhite; J.Anderson).1-10-WAS24 (3:29) (No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Beck pass incomplete short right to A.Armstrong (C.Gamble).2-10-WAS24 (3:26) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass incomplete short left to A.Armstrong. PENALTY on WAS-S.Locklear, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at WAS 24 - No Play.2-20-WAS14 (3:26) (Shotgun) PENALTY on CAR-C.Johnson, Defensive Offside, 5 yards, enforced at WAS 14 - No Play.2-15-WAS19 (3:21) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass deep right intended for L.Hankerson INTERCEPTED by C.Gamble at WAS 44. C.Gamble to WAS 25 for 19 yards (T.Austin).1-10-WAS20 (1:56) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass short left to F.Davis to WAS 29 for 9 yards (J.Anderson). Penalty on CAR-C.Johnson, Defensive Offside, declined.2-1-WAS29 (1:50) (Shotgun) J.Beck pass incomplete short right to J.Gaffney.3-1-WAS29 (1:46) (Shotgun) J.Beck sacked at WAS 25 for -4 yards (C.Johnson).4-5-WAS25 (1:19) (No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Beck pass short middle to R.Helu to WAS 29 for 4 yards (A.Applewhite).

 

[buck naked]

Very interesting thread, Hipple. This really causes me to think about Helu this weekend and perks my ears for Sunday morning. Thanks for firing it up.

 

[Breesisdaman]

Honestly, the skins like Helu on passing downs and he was perfect for the hurry up catch up mode they were in , however, I reiterate that the skins will not give up on the run until late in the game because they need to win the time of possession battle plus Moss is out and your QB situation is not the greatest in the world. Torain is the best pure runner on the skins. Even with Hightower active he was the best pure runner . For at least 3 quarters i expect him in on first and second downs toting the rock. This all flys out the door though if the run game doesnt get in gear against a Bills defense that is missing a few cogs this week including its nose tackle as well as Merriman.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20111028/SPORTS03/110280317/Rash-of-injuries-forces-changes-on-D-?odyssey=tab%7Cmostpopular%7Ctext%7CSPORTS

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Very interesting thread, Hipple. This really causes me to think about Helu this weekend and perks my ears for Sunday morning. Thanks for firing it up.

No prob. Injuries/bye weeks have me shuffling things around this week and I was toying with starting Helu. When I stumbled on this last night I figured it was oo big to bury in the bottom of the "helu, i've gott ask" thread...Would love to see Bloom chime in. I see he has the projected carries in the opposite direction, with Torain getting 8 more than Helu (but both in double digits). I wonder why that is, or is he is even aware of this. I can't imagine it being that way unless this is a much closer game than I see it being.also found this interesting. from the previously cited huddle thread

A PHENOMENAL point about Torain vs Helu is made in the latest JUMbotron:"Redskins RB carries/targets after Tim Hightower went down in the 3rd quarter last week: Roy Helu 0 carries/2 targets, Ryan Torain 1 carry/0 targets. So it sounds like Helu really didn’t make an impact, right? Hold on, Helu was on the field for all 25 Redskins snaps after Hightower went down. Torain only got on the field twice. “Wait John, the Skins were behind and Torain doesn’t fit the pass-heavy packages.” No, the Redskins were only down 16-13 a couple minutes after Hightower left. Helu was out there because Mike Shanahan likes Helu now. "25 snaps for Helu vs only 2 for Torain. Of course that stat might not mean anything at all knowing Shanahan, but I think it's definitely worth noting who got more playing time. As an aside, I'm benching Torain for Pierre Thomas this week.

I think the above is entirely misleading, regardless of what the score was at the time Hightower went down.If one were to check the actual play-by-play of the game, you'd note that Torain got 1 of his 2 carries on the 2nd play after the injury, then Beck threw to Davis to get inside the 5, then on a broken play ran it in for a TD of his own. So that was only 3 plays. The Panthers scored on their very next possession, eating up 6 minutes of clock, to go up 23-13 with 2:17 to go in the 3rd.The Redskins next possession was a 3-and-out, with 3 consecutive passes by Beck. Carolina then rattled off an 8 1/2 minute drive, capped by ANOTHER SCORE, to make it 30-13 with 8 minutes to play.The Redskins got the ball back, and Beck threw TEN CONSECUTIVE PASSES, ending in a TD to Davis, making the score 30-20 with 5 minutes to go. Nothing doing on the Panthers drive, Skins get the ball back with 3:50 to go, and Beck throws FOUR more consecutive passes, ending with a pick. Mare kicks a FG, the Skins are down 33-20 with under 1:30 to play, and naturally Beck throws FOUR more consecutive passes.To summarize, the LAST 18 PLAYS by the Redskins were all passes. They didn't even try to run the ball since 9:47 to go in the 3rd period. Only ONE of those 18 plays was a pass targeted at Helu.They were in serious have-to-pass catch-up mode for almost the entire 2nd half, I don't care that Helu played more snaps. All that tells me is that Helu is more trusted as a blocker.I like JUM and his columns, but like I said, this is 100% misleading info to support a point. Take it for what it's worth.edit: oh shoot, sorry, didn't realize keggerz made the exact same point above (hadn't finished the thread before I wrote my post).

It is also worth noting that despite getting so many more snaps than Torrain, that Helu still had less carries (one vs two), though he did get two screens.outlet passes, catching both of them.so it looks like we might be back where we started. It's a double dose of shannahan. so who the #### knows whats going to happen.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

WAS CAR Boxscore fwiw

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Aren't the practices at least somewhat open to the public? Any word who was running with the 1st team this week in practice etc?

 

[Lester Long]

As another poster pointed out I believe Helu will only have use in games where the skins are down big. otherwise I expect Torain is the guy to own. and the Skins have a solid enough defense to where I think Torain is the guy to have until he gets injured.

 

[dontknowaboutme]

I'm starting Helu in one of my leagues on a gamble this week.