True or False: Van Halen with Sammy was as good as Van Halen with Roth (2 Viewers)

[Ghost Rider]

I used to believe this narrative, but then Dave turned his solo career into a second-rate Las Vegas lounge act, so I'm not so sure that Dave really hated the synths so much, or if he just hated Eddie's power play.

I suspect Roth, who loves being the center of attention, realized that he could have a successful career as a solo artist thanks to MTV, who played his hilariously entertaining videos to death (Just a Gigolo, Yankee Rose, Goin' Crazy, Just Like Paradise).  Sadly for him, his shtick had gotten old by the time the 90's rolled around and his star faded quickly.

Synths don't automatically equate with trivial pop music; let's take a minute to remember Pete Townsend using them on "Who's Next".   "Jump" was a disappointment b/c it was a vapid piece of disposable pop, something they'd never done before.  

I don't agree. What is disposable and what is not is all up to each listener, but VH's sound since the debut always had a strong pop element (strong hooks that appealed to the masses, short songs, catchy sing-along harmonies, etc).  And hey, if a fan didn't like the "disposable" pop of Jump and just wanted to rock, six of the other eight songs on the record gave you that chance (the exceptions being the intro title track and the slow burner I'll Wait).

 

[The Future Champs]

I don't agree. What is disposable and what is not is all up to each listener, but VH's sound since the debut always had a strong pop element (strong hooks that appealed to the masses, short songs, catchy sing-along harmonies, etc).  And hey, if a fan didn't like the "disposable" pop of Jump and just wanted to rock, six of the other eight songs on the record gave you that chance (the exceptions being the intro title track and the slow burner I'll Wait).

Yes, it was 1 of 9 tracks on an album.  It was also the 1st single, and "I'll Wait" was the 2nd.  Both tracks could have come from bands like Night Ranger or Duran Duran.   

They sold out.  Plain and simple.

 

[Encyclopedia Brown]

Sammy's first album with Van Halen, "5150" was produced by Mick Jones of Foreigner. If people want to blame Sammy's vocals for the wrong sound of Van Halen, that's one thing, but at this point he was a hired hand, it was Jones steering the ship.

Jones is the guy that took his band from "Hot Blooded" to "Waiting For A Girl Like You" in just a few years, and did this not for artistic reasons but for commercial ones. He saw that the big guitar arena rock sound was waning, and they needed a new direction, and that way was ballads. Jones was always a business guy (Lou Gramm has said bitterly that Jones was always a business first guy), and I'm sure he pushed Eddie and Sammy towards the sound he thought would be the most commercial.

In fact, not too long after "5150" came out, Foreigner released a single called "Say You Will" which is almost entirely built around synthesizers, because at that point ballads were out and this was the new sound. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

100% false

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Better with Roth and I don't consider it close.

Sammy Hagar is a more talented singer and musician but Van Halen had such a cool groove during their early years and a swagger in the later DLR years.

They still had some good tunes with Hagar, but they turned into a more keyboard centric-band than guitar-centric band (which may have happened even if DLR stayed to be fair). 

 

[Mjolnirs]

False.
Van Halen with Roth rocked.
Sammy Hagar rocked.
Van Halen with Hagar ... they were ok.  It always seemed like they were holding back.

I agree with previous comments that Roth was a showman.  All bands play up the crowd by saying the name of wherever they are ... "Hello Cleveland!

But the way DLR would say "Co LUM bia!" has always stuck with me.  Just his attitude and his presentation was a show.

 

[Ghost Rider]

They still had some good tunes with Hagar, but they turned into a more keyboard centric-band than guitar-centric band (which may have happened even if DLR stayed to be fair). 

Not true.

Three of the nine 5150 songs were keyboard-centric.
Three of the nine OU812 songs were keyboard-centric.
One of the 11 For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge songs was piano-centric (Right Now).
Two of the 12 Balance songs were piano-centric (Not Enough and then Strung Out which was the short intro to Not Enough).

Look, I get that many people greatly prefer the Roth era, and I totally understand why.  That era kicked ###!  But I think far too many people have it in their head that they did mostly love ballads with synths during Hagar's tenure, and that simply is not true.  Love Walks In and When It's Love were outliers.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Yes, it was 1 of 9 tracks on an album.  It was also the 1st single, and "I'll Wait" was the 2nd.  Both tracks could have come from bands like Night Ranger or Duran Duran.   

They sold out.  Plain and simple.

Hell yeah they did...they sold arenas everywhere for years!

 

[foxco]

Yes, it was 1 of 9 tracks on an album.  It was also the 1st single, and "I'll Wait" was the 2nd.  Both tracks could have come from bands like Night Ranger or Duran Duran.   

They sold out.  Plain and simple.

Hot For Teacher, Drop Dead Legs and House of Pain are three of my faves, and I don't consider those sell out songs at all.

 

[Hawks64]

I used to believe this narrative, but then Dave turned his solo career into a second-rate Las Vegas lounge act, so I'm not so sure that Dave really hated the synths so much, or if he just hated Eddie's power play.

total power play between Eddie and DLR, and why DLR left, same reason Sammy left as well. Eddie was a #####, seemingly he's gotten his life back on track, which is good.

 

[bigbottom]

Not true.

Three of the nine 5150 songs were keyboard-centric.
Three of the nine OU812 songs were keyboard-centric.
One of the 11 For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge songs was piano-centric (Right Now).
Two of the 12 Balance songs were piano-centric (Not Enough and then Strung Out which was the short intro to Not Enough).

Look, I get that many people greatly prefer the Roth era, and I totally understand why.  That era kicked ###!  But I think far too many people have it in their head that they did mostly love ballads with synths during Hagar's tenure, and that simply is not true.  Love Walks In and When It's Love were outliers.

I don’t mind synth as a general matter. For example, I think I’ll Wait is a great song. I just didn’t like the songs of the Sammy era nearly as much.

 

[Jayrok]

They were better as a band with DLR.  And I like Sammy.  Roth was a better front man, imo.

 

[zamboni]

Different bands, but I lean heavily towards the Diamond Dave days. IMO, not a coincidence that they lost a lot of their bar band moxie when both DLR and Ted Templeman left after 1984.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Not true.

Sorry my opinion wasn't true.

And your "facts" don't take into consideration that I said "more of a...." (as in from where they were) which your "facts" show is correct. I did not say they were "only a...".

 

[Sullie]

False.

Ted Templeman as producer David Lee Roth, Edward Van Halen, Michael Anthony and Alex Van Halen along with manager Irving Azoff were Van Halen so that would be all of the albums from Van Halen to 1984.  I think the closest thing that came to capturing that magic was A Different KInd of Truth, I really like that album quite a bit but even on that album, I think it would be that much better with Michael Anthony's background vocals, the bass playing Wolfy does is fine but Michael's background vocals are missing from that album (to me.)

The albums Van Halen did with Sammy Hagar are really, really great albums, I actually listen to them quite a bit but they just don't "feel" like Van Halen albums to me, they feel like really good, amped up Sammy Hagar albums with Van Halen playing on them if that makes sense?  

The bad part about it is that, as a person, I actually prefer Sammy Hagar.  I think he's a down to earth, honest, good guy.  I've watched a ton of interviews with him and he just seems more relatable to me.  David Lee Roth, to me, is just so fricken' weird, I don't know what the guy is on but he just seems off to me, when I watch old interviews with him from back in the day, I just think "Jesus, what am I watching?"

  I think he's calmed down quite a bit over the years but, to me, I honestly never cared for his goofy theatrics, the dancing and jumping around and all that crap, it just always felt campy and obnoxious  to me.  When I watch live concerts with Hagar, it just seems so much more watchable. The only thing I really like about DLR is his voice, even on the solo work he did, I really have enjoyed his solo albums over the years, I think he had a great voice.

I think if you could take DLR's old voice and stick into Sammy Hagar's body, have that combination sing with Ed, Michael and Alex and create an album produced by Ted Templeman, honestly, you'd have perfection to me.

 

[Ghost Rider]

total power play between Eddie and DLR, and why DLR left, same reason Sammy left as well. Eddie was a #####, seemingly he's gotten his life back on track, which is good.

Eddie is still one of the biggest you-know-whats in rock history, though.  His shabby treatment of Michael Anthony, one of the nicest guys in the business, over the years is shameful.

I don’t mind synth as a general matter. For example, I think I’ll Wait is a great song. I just didn’t like the songs of the Sammy era nearly as much.

Totally understand.  And the consistency of those early Roth albums is a major plus.  Diver Down was a misstep, but prior to that, those first four albums are all easy to turn on and just have a blast listening to from start to finish.

 

[Ghost Rider]

False.

Ted Templeman as producer David Lee Roth, Edward Van Halen, Michael Anthony and Alex Van Halen along with manager Irving Azoff were Van Halen so that would be all of the albums from Van Halen to 1984.  I think the closest thing that came to capturing that magic was A Different KInd of Truth, I really like that album quite a bit but even on that album, I think it would be that much better with Michael Anthony's background vocals, the bass playing Wolfy does is fine but Michael's background vocals are missing from that album (to me.)

The albums Van Halen did with Sammy Hagar are really, really great albums, I actually listen to them quite a bit but they just don't "feel" like Van Halen albums to me, they feel like really good, amped up Sammy Hagar albums with Van Halen playing on them if that makes sense?  

The bad part about it is that, as a person, I actually prefer Sammy Hagar.  I think he's a down to earth, honest, good guy.  I've watched a ton of interviews with him and he just seems more relatable to me.  David Lee Roth, to me, is just so fricken' weird, I don't know what the guy is on but he just seems off to me, when I watch old interviews with him from back in the day, I just think "Jesus, what am I watching?"

  I think he's calmed down quite a bit over the years but, to me, I honestly never cared for his goofy theatrics, the dancing and jumping around and all that crap, it just always felt campy and obnoxious  to me.  When I watch live concerts with Hagar, it just seems so much more watchable. The only thing I really like about DLR is his voice, even on the solo work he did, I really have enjoyed his solo albums over the years, I think he had a great voice.

I think if you could take DLR's old voice and stick into Sammy Hagar's body, have that combination sing with Ed, Michael and Alex and create an album produced by Ted Templeman, honestly, you'd have perfection to me.

A Different Kind of Truth is a damn fine record, aside from Tattoo, which blows big chunks.  Big River, Outta Space and The Trouble with Never are all legit great VH songs, IMO.  And there are many other good ones as well.  I wish the mix was more like the early stuff, and not hot like a lot of modern albums, but I still like it a lot.

I think Roth's shtick worked well for a while, but similar to how Chevy Chase was always really funny and then all of a sudden he just wasn't anymore, DLR's shtick seemingly overnight stopped being entertaining and just became outdated and sad.  History will be kinder to Roth than it will be to Sammy, as I think most would agree that the Roth era is widely considered the band's peak (which I agree that that is the consensus despite everything I have said in this thread), and that is unfortunate, but it's the way it goes.  But there is still much love for the Sammy era from VH fans in general.  They could do another reunion tour next year with the 1986-1996 lineup and tickets would sell fast.  And that is the hair in the soup for Eddie Van Halen, and probably why we have seen so little new music from the band in the last 20+ years.  Following the Cherone fiasco, it is clear that the VH fanbase will never accept any lead singer in the band who isn't David Lee Roth and Sammy Hagar.  And I think Hagar and Anthony being such close friends has made them enemies for life to the brothers (or just Eddie; I think Alex just goes along with Eddie out of sibling loyalty), which means it is Roth or nothing.  They hate Roth, but they sucked it up and did a few tours that way Wolfgang could make some money that was his own.

 

[jamny]

False

 

[bigbottom]

A Different Kind of Truth is a damn fine record, aside from Tattoo, which blows big chunks.  Big River, Outta Space and The Trouble with Never are all legit great VH songs, IMO.  And there are many other good ones as well.  I wish the mix was more like the early stuff, and not hot like a lot of modern albums, but I still like it a lot.

A Different Kind of Truth is such an odd album to me. I’ve listened to it many times and there is no doubt that there are a lot of tracks on the album that have all the components of being a great song. Stellar guitar riffs, fun up tempo beats, Roth’s trademark vocal stylings complemented by great backing harmonies. The songs themselves are well-crafted and the choruses by and large have the recipe for a good hook. But in the end, the songs didn’t stick with me.  It’s almost like an uncanny valley effect for me in song form. Like if you were to use AI to synthesize every Roth-era VH tune and generate new songs. Everything is there that the songs should be great, but they just aren’t, and I can’t really explain why. 

 

[Anarchy99]

A Different Kind of Truth is such an odd album to me. I’ve listened to it many times and there is no doubt that there are a lot of tracks on the album that have all the components of being a great song. Stellar guitar riffs, fun up tempo beats, Roth’s trademark vocal stylings complemented by great backing harmonies. The songs themselves are well-crafted and the choruses by and large have the recipe for a good hook. But in the end, the songs didn’t stick with me.  It’s almost like an uncanny valley effect for me in song form. Like if you were to use AI to synthesize every Roth-era VH tune and generate new songs. Everything is there that the songs should be great, but they just aren’t, and I can’t really explain why. 

One thing I always wonder about is how would the younger me have thought about a recently released album. The 2020 (or 2012) version of bigbottom is likely different now than the INSERT YEAR HERE version of bigbottom. Life is different. Times are different. Music is different. I have similar feelings about A Different Kind of Truth. But if Women and Children First came out in 2012 and ADKOT came out in 1980, we would probably say the same thing . . . that Women and Children First (if it came out in 2012) doesn't have the same impact or feel now coming out all these years later (and ADKOT fit in with their catalog at the time). I know there is no way to support that, but I think that's a likely outcome. In general, the VH sound from their peak years is not as popular now and new hard rock albums don't get near the radio airplay like back in the day. All the VH albums with DLR in their first run went multi-platinum. ADKOT sold a little over 400,000 copies in the US . . . even their album with Gary Cherone sold better. So my overall point is that it's a decent bet that whatever they released in 2012 would seem like a disappointment, and the album itself is probably better than we are giving it credit for.

 

[soothsayer]

A Different Kind of Truth is such an odd album to me. I’ve listened to it many times and there is no doubt that there are a lot of tracks on the album that have all the components of being a great song. Stellar guitar riffs, fun up tempo beats, Roth’s trademark vocal stylings complemented by great backing harmonies. The songs themselves are well-crafted and the choruses by and large have the recipe for a good hook. But in the end, the songs didn’t stick with me.  It’s almost like an uncanny valley effect for me in song form. Like if you were to use AI to synthesize every Roth-era VH tune and generate new songs. Everything is there that the songs should be great, but they just aren’t, and I can’t really explain why. 

"As Is" from ADKOT is in my list of top 10 VH songs (possibly top 5). You can watch them play this during soundcheck (minus DLR) here  - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si9M_WCzB70&t=401s. This song would have been a monster live on that tour had they actually put it in the setlist - and without DLR's vocals it gives a glimpse into how good Wolfie is on the bass and backing vocals (especially on Light up the Sky, the second song in that video clip). There are a number of other great tracks as well - but they made a huge blunder by releasing "Tattoo" as the first single. If the first single had been "She's the Woman", I really think that album would have been much bigger and they would have had more of a career resurgence than they did. I don't even think that Tattoo is such a bad song, it just seems so much worse because it's the song they put front and center - a strategic misstep.

VH is my favorite rock band - I've seen them a couple times on each tour since 2012 and even went to see DLR at the House of Blues in Vegas, and again opening for Kiss, at the beginning of this year. Van Roth >>> Van Hagar to me. That said, Van Hagar certainly has some great songs and as others have noted - they simply went in a different direction. Sammy is more musical whereas DLR is more showman. Both are good - but one is way more entertaining. Van Roth had swagger, which is something Sammy just doesn't have. Sammy is the "good guy" - homecoming king. DLR is the troublemaker who laid all the women and drank all the booze.  Which is more fun to be around on a Friday night?

I genuinely feel bad for Gary Cherone. He's a great front man for Extreme (who is kick ### live) and guided a really good tour for Van Halen (as previously mentioned). His album was not good, though there are a couple of good lost tracks (including Without You - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYhOegeQwRM).

@bigbottom - One reason I think ADKOT may not grab you as much is that it doesn't have the same "recorded live" feel to it as the Templeman years. It's a cleaner recording and doesn't have the "dirty" feel to it that the original lineup created in the studio. My one cent.

 

[bigbottom]

One thing I always wonder about is how would the younger me have thought about a recently released album. The 2020 (or 2012) version of bigbottom is likely different now than the INSERT YEAR HERE version of bigbottom. Life is different. Times are different. Music is different. I have similar feelings about A Different Kind of Truth. But if Women and Children First came out in 2012 and ADKOT came out in 1980, we would probably say the same thing . . . that Women and Children First (if it came out in 2012) doesn't have the same impact or feel now coming out all these years later (and ADKOT fit in with their catalog at the time). I know there is no way to support that, but I think that's a likely outcome. In general, the VH sound from their peak years is not as popular now and new hard rock albums don't get near the radio airplay like back in the day. All the VH albums with DLR in their first run went multi-platinum. ADKOT sold a little over 400,000 copies in the US . . . even their album with Gary Cherone sold better. So my overall point is that it's a decent bet that whatever they released in 2012 would seem like a disappointment, and the album itself is probably better than we are giving it credit for.

You raise a really good point here, and it’s one that I’ve actually given a fair amount of thought. But despite the self-reflection, I am convinced that if I heard Unchained or Ain’t Talking ‘Bout Love or Hot for Teacher or Panama for the first time today, I would love it. Perhaps I’m just in a state of denial. 

 

[bigbottom]

"As Is" from ADKOT is in my list of top 10 VH songs (possibly top 5). You can watch them play this during soundcheck (minus DLR) here  - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si9M_WCzB70&t=401s. This song would have been a monster live on that tour had they actually put it in the setlist - and without DLR's vocals it gives a glimpse into how good Wolfie is on the bass and backing vocals (especially on Light up the Sky, the second song in that video clip). There are a number of other great tracks as well - but they made a huge blunder by releasing "Tattoo" as the first single. If the first single had been "She's the Woman", I really think that album would have been much bigger and they would have had more of a career resurgence than they did. I don't even think that Tattoo is such a bad song, it just seems so much worse because it's the song they put front and center - a strategic misstep.

VH is my favorite rock band - I've seen them a couple times on each tour since 2012 and even went to see DLR at the House of Blues in Vegas, and again opening for Kiss, at the beginning of this year. Van Roth >>> Van Hagar to me. That said, Van Hagar certainly has some great songs and as others have noted - they simply went in a different direction. Sammy is more musical whereas DLR is more showman. Both are good - but one is way more entertaining. Van Roth had swagger, which is something Sammy just doesn't have. Sammy is the "good guy" - homecoming king. DLR is the troublemaker who laid all the women and drank all the booze.  Which is more fun to be around on a Friday night?

I genuinely feel bad for Gary Cherone. He's a great front man for Extreme (who is kick ### live) and guided a really good tour for Van Halen (as previously mentioned). His album was not good, though there are a couple of good lost tracks (including Without You - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYhOegeQwRM).

@bigbottom - One reason I think ADKOT may not grab you as much is that it doesn't have the same "recorded live" feel to it as the Templeman years. It's a cleaner recording and doesn't have the "dirty" feel to it that the original lineup created in the studio. My one cent.

Thanks for the well-thought out reply. There is no doubt that As Is absolutely cooks. Eddie’s guitar work just on the verses is incredible. But it doesn’t end up sticking in my brain like so many of the other hits. You mention She’s the Woman. That is probably the tune that comes the closest to capturing the magic for me. 

 

[Anarchy99]

You raise a really good point here, and it’s one that I’ve actually given a fair amount of thought. But despite the self-reflection, I am convinced that if I heard Unchained or Ain’t Talking ‘Bout Love or Hot for Teacher or Panama for the first time today, I would love it. Perhaps I’m just in a state of denial. 

Clearly there is no way of knowing what ifs that can't happen, but I would suggest that since you already know and love ATBL, HFT, and Panama you are already biased and therefore have poisoned the water hole. You can't unhear and unlike songs from 40 years ago that you have listened to regularly since. You just can't.

The current state of music culture makes it almost impossible for hard rock artists to gain any mass attraction and popularity. Rap, pop, hip hop, etc. are what's in, and guitars and playing actual instruments are out.

One of the reasons you probably like She's the Woman is it was one of their original songs. It just never made it to one of their original albums. It was on their Warner Brothers demo tape.
LINK

 

[bigbottom]

One of the reasons you probably like She's the Woman is it was one of their original songs. It just never made it to one of their original albums. It was on their Warner Brothers demo tape.
LINK

That’s right!  And I’d never heard it before it was released in the 2000s. I think that would support my hypothesis.

I had a similar experience with Metallica’s Death Magnetic. They returned to the thrash metal roots that I loved - I should have really liked the songs on that album. Again, they had all the right ingredients. But none of those songs stuck with me. Maybe I was just too old to learn to like new tunes. But then Hardwired to Self Destruct came out and there are a bunch of tunes on that album that I absolutely love as much as the classics from Lightning, Puppets and Kill ‘Em All. 

 

[Anarchy99]

That’s right!  And I’d never heard it before it was released in the 2000s. I think that would support my hypothesis.

I had a similar experience with Metallica’s Death Magnetic. They returned to the thrash metal roots that I loved - I should have really liked the songs on that album. Again, they had all the right ingredients. But none of those songs stuck with me. Maybe I was just too old to learn to like new tunes. But then Hardwired to Self Destruct came out and there are a bunch of tunes on that album that I absolutely love as much as the classics from Lightning, Puppets and Kill ‘Em All. 

I agree that I like that song . . . but I already liked that song (with the advent of the internet, it's been in my folder of VH songs for years). However, even She's the Woman didn't really garner much of a following when it finally showed up in 2012. So while bigbottom may have liked it in 2012 or 1976, many other people didn't respond to it like they may have if it had been released 35 years earlier. Similarly, high school aged Anarchy would have really liked it and played it a ton, but 50+ year old Anarchy doesn't often pick hard rocking VH to listen to anywhere near as much as then. Oddly enough, since I mostly ignored Van Hagar when they were a think, I find myself listening to more of them these days than VH with DLR. I don't think the Sammy era was better, but it's newer (to me anyway) to listen to and not quite so heavy (which many days I am not always in a hard rocking mood these days). So I have gone from "never Sammy" to "they actually were pretty good." But to each his or her own, as the saying goes.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Artie Lange said it best a few years back on the Howard Stern show when discussing their 2002 joint tour.  It went something to the effect of, "if I'm at a show and I hear Panama,  Hot for Teacher, Jump, Runnin' with the Devil (and a bunch of other Roth songs), I'm feeling like I got a full show."

You can't say the same thing the other way.  

 

[nirad3]

Not really my kind of music, per se, so maybe my opinion is way off here... but I think the music they put out with Hagar was on par with the Lee Roth stuff.  The two types were certainly different, that's for sure.

 

[soothsayer]

For those interested in such books, I HIGHLY recommend the book "Van Halen Rising" by Greg Renoff. It was a fantastic read about the beginnings of Van Halen (no Sammy content). Renoff has a new release called "Ted Templeman -  A Platinum Producer's Life in Music". I've purchased this one but haven't yet read it. Have to believe it will also be outstanding.

 

[Tom Servo]

Look, I get that many people greatly prefer the Roth era, and I totally understand why.  That era kicked ###!  But I think far too many people have it in their head that they did mostly love ballads with synths during Hagar's tenure, and that simply is not true.  Love Walks In and When It's Love were outliers.

Except that's the type of songs that VH got played on the radio and not the hard-hitting stuff.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

Not true.

Three of the nine 5150 songs were keyboard-centric.
Three of the nine OU812 songs were keyboard-centric.
One of the 11 For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge songs was piano-centric (Right Now).
Two of the 12 Balance songs were piano-centric (Not Enough and then Strung Out which was the short intro to Not Enough).

Look, I get that many people greatly prefer the Roth era, and I totally understand why.  That era kicked ###!  But I think far too many people have it in their head that they did mostly love ballads with synths during Hagar's tenure, and that simply is not true.  Love Walks In and When It's Love were outliers.

And almost all of those songs were singles. That’s what most people remember and that’s what the band,the record company or both wanted to put forward at the time. So it matters.

 

[Anarchy99]

You raise a really good point here, and it’s one that I’ve actually given a fair amount of thought. But despite the self-reflection, I am convinced that if I heard Unchained or Ain’t Talking ‘Bout Love or Hot for Teacher or Panama for the first time today, I would love it. Perhaps I’m just in a state of denial. 

Let's put your theory to the test. Here are some early DLR era songs that most people probably haven't heard before. Let's see if you give thumbs up for them or not.

Young And Wild
Light In The Sky
We Die Bold
Piece Of Mind
I Wanna Be Your Lover
Big Trouble
Bad Women
Babe, Don't Leave Me Alone
Put Out The Lights
Woman In Love

 

[Ghost Rider]

A Different Kind of Truth is such an odd album to me. I’ve listened to it many times and there is no doubt that there are a lot of tracks on the album that have all the components of being a great song. Stellar guitar riffs, fun up tempo beats, Roth’s trademark vocal stylings complemented by great backing harmonies. The songs themselves are well-crafted and the choruses by and large have the recipe for a good hook. But in the end, the songs didn’t stick with me.  It’s almost like an uncanny valley effect for me in song form. Like if you were to use AI to synthesize every Roth-era VH tune and generate new songs. Everything is there that the songs should be great, but they just aren’t, and I can’t really explain why. 

Like I always say, we all like what we like, and I totally get it when something doesn't grab ya. 

"As Is" from ADKOT is in my list of top 10 VH songs (possibly top 5). You can watch them play this during soundcheck (minus DLR) here  - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si9M_WCzB70&t=401s. This song would have been a monster live on that tour had they actually put it in the setlist - and without DLR's vocals it gives a glimpse into how good Wolfie is on the bass and backing vocals (especially on Light up the Sky, the second song in that video clip). There are a number of other great tracks as well - but they made a huge blunder by releasing "Tattoo" as the first single. If the first single had been "She's the Woman", I really think that album would have been much bigger and they would have had more of a career resurgence than they did. I don't even think that Tattoo is such a bad song, it just seems so much worse because it's the song they put front and center - a strategic misstep.

VH is my favorite rock band - I've seen them a couple times on each tour since 2012 and even went to see DLR at the House of Blues in Vegas, and again opening for Kiss, at the beginning of this year. Van Roth >>> Van Hagar to me. That said, Van Hagar certainly has some great songs and as others have noted - they simply went in a different direction. Sammy is more musical whereas DLR is more showman. Both are good - but one is way more entertaining. Van Roth had swagger, which is something Sammy just doesn't have. Sammy is the "good guy" - homecoming king. DLR is the troublemaker who laid all the women and drank all the booze.  Which is more fun to be around on a Friday night?

I genuinely feel bad for Gary Cherone. He's a great front man for Extreme (who is kick ### live) and guided a really good tour for Van Halen (as previously mentioned). His album was not good, though there are a couple of good lost tracks (including Without You - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYhOegeQwRM).

@bigbottom - One reason I think ADKOT may not grab you as much is that it doesn't have the same "recorded live" feel to it as the Templeman years. It's a cleaner recording and doesn't have the "dirty" feel to it that the original lineup created in the studio. My one cent.

The Cherone concert I saw was great. It was great to get a good mixture of songs from both eras, and I actually liked most of the Cherone album when it was first out, although much of it did not age well for me.   I still love Once and Dirty Water Dog, and Fire in a Hole, Without You and From Afar are all still good.  I love what they were going for in Year to the Day, with it being a slow burner, but it didn't quite hit the mark.  I still wish they would have let him sing in his normal voice instead of him trying to sound too much like Hagar.

And almost all of those songs were singles. That’s what most people remember and that’s what the band,the record company or both wanted to put forward at the time. So it matters.

Yep, I get that.  Many remember just the singles, not the deep cuts.  Right Now sure does seem like a song that is so good that any VH fan should love it, but that's me. 

 

[bigbottom]

Let's put your theory to the test. Here are some early DLR era songs that most people probably haven't heard before. Let's see if you give thumbs up for them or not.

Young And Wild
Light In The Sky
We Die Bold
Piece Of Mind
I Wanna Be Your Lover
Big Trouble
Bad Women
Babe, Don't Leave Me Alone

Super cool!  Thanks for posting these.  My thoughts are based on a single listen, so I reserve the right to change my mind.

Young And Wild - Just okay. Main guitar riff is pretty pedestrian, though the solo is great. Vocal melody is only okay and the hook on the chorus is suspect. High point is Michael Anthony’s backing vocals. Almost good enough to save the tune.  Grade: C

Light In The Sky - Wow, this is a really good tune. The arrangement goes a bit haywire after the solo - I think they could have tightened it up and shortened the tune by a minute, but overall, this is great.  Cool guitar riffs and the solo is amazing.  Like the chorus a lot as well.  I owe you a debt for turning me on to this song!  Grade: B+

We Die Bold - Pretty good until they hit the chorus, which I’m not a fan of at all. Once again, the guitar solo is fantastic. Grade: C+

Piece Of Mind - This one had a really good groove but the vocals are just too self-indulgent and overwhelm the tune.  Grade: C+

I Wanna Be Your Lover - Another good tune that gets derailed by a horrible chorus. Were it not for that this could have been a great song. The guitar/bass solo in back third of the song is amazing.  Grade: B-

Big Trouble - Well, this one has me rethinking things.  Because I love this tune!  And I know it’s essentially the same as Big River.  So I went and listened to Big River and found myself appreciating it more than the 50 other times I’ve heard it previously.  Grade: A- (original); B+ (remake)

Bad Women - Same as Piece of Mind

Babe, Don't Leave Me Alone - Good tune, but the arrangement sounds almost southern rock influenced which is odd. But it’s got cool crunchy guitar and a good hook on the chorus. Grade: B

 

[Anarchy99]

Super cool!

Round 2 . . . some may have been the foundation for other songs or are just earlier versions (some may be different names of ones I already posted, so sorry for duplicates).

Put Out The Lights
Let's Get Rockin'
Voodoo Queen
Get The Show On The Road
Believe Me
House Of Pain
Eyes Of The Night
Glitter
Last Night
Eruption
Rock Steady
Let Me Swim In Your Ocean
No More Waiting
We All Had A Real Good Time

 

[[scooter]]

Round 2 . . . some may have been the foundation for other songs or are just earlier versions (some may be different names of ones I already posted, so sorry for duplicates).

Put Out The Lights
Let's Get Rockin'
Voodoo Queen
Get The Show On The Road
Believe Me
House Of Pain
Eyes Of The Night
Glitter
Last Night
Eruption
Rock Steady
Let Me Swim In Your Ocean
No More Waiting
We All Had A Real Good Time

"Let Me Swim" is a cover of a song by Cactus (does that intro sound familiar at all??)

"Rock Steady" is a Bad Company cover.

"We All Had A Real Good Time" is an Edgar Winter cover.

"Young And Wild" is a cover of a local Los Angeles group called Venus & The Razorblades. It was later recorded by Cherie Currie of The Runaways.

 

[Bluesbomber]

Montrose album is pretty strong/s. ... I believe the first 4 VH albums are pretty strong, 2  is a fave. Personally I would take Montrose and many Hagar solo songs over all but a half a dozen VH songs. but hey go ahead and Jump on the Ice Cream Man haha. Beautiful Girls is my essential VH song. Rock the Nation might define 70's hard rock however. Bad Motor Scooter is probably a great Sammy comp for early VH.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk52nGxF-jc check it...

 

[SlaX]

It's going to sound weird, but I preferred Sammy's vocals, but the iconic songs came during the DLR era and what I think of when I think Van Halen.

 

[skol asylum]

David Lee Roth annoyed me. Sammy was nothing special. I'll take a pass on the whole band. Meh.

 

[notoriousbill]

True.  I thoroughly enjoy both Van Halen eras almost as if they were different bands (they were). 

 

[Anarchy99]

Clearly everyone likes what they like, but on Ranker, DLR fronted songs account for:

- 10 of the Top 10 VH songs.
- 17 of the Top 20 VH songs.
- 24 of the Top 30 VH songs.
- 31 of the Top 40 VH songs.
- 39 of the Top 50 VH songs.
- 46 of the Top 60 VH songs.
- 56 of the Top 70 VH songs.
- 61 of the Top 80 VH songs.
- 64 of the Top 90 VH songs.
- 70 of the Top 100 VH songs.

Overall, people that use Ranker are way more vans of the original band than the Sammy led version.

 

[rockaction]

I think anybody that takes the trouble to rank songs in Ranker has a deep interest in the band. Van Halen, as constructed with Roth, is considered the purest essence of that band. Roth is going to win that argument by pure self-selection alone by the very respondents of whom the site seeks an opinion.

I posted before but I should say this: Van Halen was my favorite band in seventh grade. I thought they were cool. I feel much differently today. Roth isn't so cool, and the pre-Nirvana rock star act looks dated and supremely uncool in retrospect. You can get whiffs of the bully, the sexist, the opportunist, the nihilist, and the cruel from Van Halen with Roth. It's not so pretty. They've got teachers stripping and degrading themselves as entertainment, for God's sakes. That's befitting of seventh grade enjoyment, but doesn't say much for the adult experiences people ought share and wrap themselves in. So in the seventh grade bin they remain, and any attempt to listen to them must channel my innocent seventh-grade myself for full enjoyment with Roth preening and Eddie soloing and the like.

With all that said, Hagar's celebu-enjoyment with Eddie and Alex is an even worse symptom of its time, looks even worse with the band, and that stupid dance they do in the live video of "Best Of Both Worlds" is the worst manufactured attempt at fun since...well, every time I think of "Best of Both Worlds," manufactured fun and perfunctory rock come to mind so I'm not sure there is a perfect analogy. It's everything ####ty about rock n' roll, in one dance and video. Add that to the jingoism of the Blue Angels and "Dreams" and you've got an obnoxious flyover just waiting to happen. The crappy military-entertainment industrial complex that helped define the eighties to a particular population are always alive in Van Hagar, and it is by far worse and more sinister than dancing teachers. 

 

[36Kevon]

There is a reason they are called Van Halen and not Roth or Hagar. But still, the original is better. 

 

[Deepster]

Lived through the entire VH experience.  Saw both front men live numerous times.

Not even close for me.  DLR by a mile.

DLR's VH was nasty and loud and had killer rock guitar and songs that exploded live.

Sammy's VH was cuter, softer, definitely leaned more towards the synth/pop side.  Catchy songs, but not the same bad boys of rock and roll feel like when VH would roll into town and destroy a couple hotel rooms.

 

[[scooter]]

You can get whiffs of the bully, the sexist, the opportunist, the nihilist, and the cruel from Van Halen with Roth. It's not so pretty. They've got teachers stripping and degrading themselves as entertainment, for God's sakes. That's befitting of seventh grade enjoyment, but doesn't say much for the adult experiences people ought share and wrap themselves in.

Dave's lyrics were written from the perspective of an awkward 12-year-old who simultaneously loves girls but also hates them for ignoring him.

 

[rockaction]

Dave's lyrics were written from the perspective of an awkward 12-year-old who simultaneously loves girls but also hates them for ignoring him.

To be fair, I think he has indeed said that in interviews.

/jk

 

[Doug B]

"Let Me Swim" is a cover of a song by Cactus (does that intro sound familiar at all??)

Of all things, "The Time Warp" (from The Rocky Horror Picture Show soundtrack) owes a lot to that song, too.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Clearly everyone likes what they like, but on Ranker, DLR fronted songs account for:

- 10 of the Top 10 VH songs.
- 17 of the Top 20 VH songs.
- 24 of the Top 30 VH songs.
- 31 of the Top 40 VH songs.
- 39 of the Top 50 VH songs.
- 46 of the Top 60 VH songs.
- 56 of the Top 70 VH songs.
- 61 of the Top 80 VH songs.
- 64 of the Top 90 VH songs.
- 70 of the Top 100 VH songs.

Overall, people that use Ranker are way more vans of the original band than the Sammy led version.

In my head, I envision the Roth fans rushing to that site to vote non-stop.  Not that the Roth era isn't great, but I have been on the 'net long enough to know that the "Roth was awesome, Sammy sucks" people are a weird bunch. They seem almost angry that the band had the nerve to go on without DLR, and the fact that the Sammy lineup was roughly as successful really grinds their gears.  It reminds me of Metallica fans who threw epic fits when The Black Album erupted into the mainstream.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Ghost Rider is a Fro alias? You effed up the poll.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

The albums Van Halen did with Sammy Hagar are really, really great albums, I actually listen to them quite a bit but they just don't "feel" like Van Halen albums to me, they feel like really good, amped up Sammy Hagar albums with Van Halen playing on them if that makes sense?  

The bad part about it is that, as a person, I actually prefer Sammy Hagar.  I think he's a down to earth, honest, good guy.  I've watched a ton of interviews with him and he just seems more relatable to me.  David Lee Roth, to me, is just so fricken' weird, I don't know what the guy is on but he just seems off to me, when I watch old interviews with him from back in the day, I just think "Jesus, what am I watching?"

  I think he's calmed down quite a bit over the years but, to me, I honestly never cared for his goofy theatrics, the dancing and jumping around and all that crap, it just always felt campy and obnoxious  to me.  When I watch live concerts with Hagar, it just seems so much more watchable.

This is pretty well stated imo. I enjoy the Hagar songs fine. But I prefer Van Halen with Roth and Hagar on his own (but on his own with Mikey). I do wish he could still say, "I'd like to introduce you to my best friend in the world, Mr. Eddie Van Halen." Kinda sad. But I gotta think that was a grind.