Fennis
Footballguy
sure, I understand why they act as they do. However, Russia should also expect countries to act to protect their own sovereignty.
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Turkey shoots down Russian jet (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter dschuler
- Start date
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I have no 
clue if this is accurate:
clue if this is accurate:
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Not funny:
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
The Russians have learned nothing since Afghanistan. How to fck up a country beyond all repair. Makes the US in Iraq look positively gentle.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
https://twitter.com/etkmkao/status/669263497612644353
- I don't think I understand the graphic but it seems interesting.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
- Say, has anyone seen the President today? Has he spoken on the Turkey/Syria crisis?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
This is scary stuff. Hopefully it's a whole lot of saber rattling, and that's all. But it's still scary.
Fennis
Footballguy
Harry Manback
Footballguy
Jesus if I didn't know better I'd think SaintsinDome is getting a chub over there with all of this.
Fennis
Footballguy
since it wasn't a tweet Saints may have missed it. 
Here is what part of what Obama had to say:
Turkey, like every country, has a right to defend its territory and its airspace. I think it's very important right now for us to make sure that both the Russians and the Turks are talking to each other, find out exactly what happened and take measures to discourage any kind of escalation. If Russia is directing its energies towards Daesh and ISIL, some of those conflicts or potentials for mistakes or escalation are less likely to occur.
This underscores the importance of us making sure that we move this political track forward as quickly as possible. Like President Hollande, our view from the start has been that Russia is welcome to be part of this broad-based coalition that we have set up.
Here is what part of what Obama had to say:
Turkey, like every country, has a right to defend its territory and its airspace. I think it's very important right now for us to make sure that both the Russians and the Turks are talking to each other, find out exactly what happened and take measures to discourage any kind of escalation. If Russia is directing its energies towards Daesh and ISIL, some of those conflicts or potentials for mistakes or escalation are less likely to occur.
This underscores the importance of us making sure that we move this political track forward as quickly as possible. Like President Hollande, our view from the start has been that Russia is welcome to be part of this broad-based coalition that we have set up.
Fennis
Footballguy
I don't know about that, but my wife always knows its on whenever there is an international incident like this. When Arab Spring happened, my wife finally had to go visit her sister for a week or two.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
BHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
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timschochet
Footballguy
Once again, what would you have Obama do? Because I believe that it's wrong to criticize unless you have a specific alternative to offer.BHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
Fennis
Footballguy
it would better if you compared it to hyper hypo skit on SNLBHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
Harry Manback
Footballguy
Just like he can't tell you what Trump would do better, he wont be able to you what Obama should do.Once again, what would you have Obama do? Because I believe that it's wrong to criticize unless you have a specific alternative to offer.BHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
What do I have to do with Trump? What does Trump have to do with it?Talk about your non sequiturs.Just like he can't tell you what Trump would do better, he wont be able to you what Obama should do.Once again, what would you have Obama do? Because I believe that it's wrong to criticize unless you have a specific alternative to offer.BHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
timschochet
Footballguy
Obama may be worthy of criticism here. I don't think he is, based on what I know, but what I know right now is pretty damn little. Who the heck knows what options Obama has been given by his military and diplomatic advisors? Who here has any idea what he has accepted and rejected?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Something a little firmer than "Stop, or I'll say 'stop' again."I'm not advocating going to Defcon 4, but something a little less schoolmarm wouldn't hurt.Once again, what would you have Obama do? Because I believe that it's wrong to criticize unless you have a specific alternative to offer.BHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
Putin doesn't give two shakes what he thinks is important.
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CBusAlex
Footballguy
So your specific alternative is "something"?Something a little firmer than "Stop, or I'll say 'stop' again."I'm not advocating going to Defcon 4, but something a little less schoolmarm wouldn't hurt.Once again, what would you have Obama do? Because I believe that it's wrong to criticize unless you have a specific alternative to offer.BHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
Putin doesn't give two shakes what he thinks is important.
Dinkle Heimer
Footballguy
LOL. In the big scheme of things this is nothing more than a minor skirmish in a large geopolitical world. Putin has very little leverage, reason, or resources to escalate this much more beyond puffing his chest. Hes also got mutliple irons in the fire and starting to reap what his sown from overextending his country as world police. The Obama must to something pleas are a bit comical, this will be a nonissue in several short weeks.
Fennis
Footballguy
To be fair to Andy he said he wants to hear rhetoric, maybe a little sabre rattling.So your specific alternative is "something"?Something a little firmer than "Stop, or I'll say 'stop' again."I'm not advocating going to Defcon 4, but something a little less schoolmarm wouldn't hurt.Once again, what would you have Obama do? Because I believe that it's wrong to criticize unless you have a specific alternative to offer.BHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
Putin doesn't give two shakes what he thinks is important.
timschochet
Footballguy
But you don't know that he said that. We don't know WHAT he's saying to the Russians right now.Something a little firmer than "Stop, or I'll say 'stop' again."I'm not advocating going to Defcon 4, but something a little less schoolmarm wouldn't hurt.Once again, what would you have Obama do? Because I believe that it's wrong to criticize unless you have a specific alternative to offer.BHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
Putin doesn't give two shakes what he thinks is important.
And you don't seem to have a specific response other than "something firmer." In the end, no response we make will be firm unless we are willing to back it up with some kind of penalty or reward. Are we?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I've been at work all day and haven't been able to convene my war council. Sorry.This line of reasoning that you can't criticize unless you have an alternative is phony anyway. It's done all the time.
I'd you want an admission I will say statements like the one he made at least don't make the situation worse. So that's a start. But neither do I think they help.
I do believe his willingness to not push back on Putin the last six years has limited his options today and have indeed emboldened Putin.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Things have escalated to 1. Russia bombing a Turkish aid convoy, 2. Russia putting SAM's on the Turkish border, and 3. Turkey sending tanks to the border while Russia masses tanks on the Syrian side. Not amusing.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Here we go, information, Fennis, thanks.since it wasn't a tweet Saints may have missed it.
Here is what part of what Obama had to say:
Turkey, like every country, has a right to defend its territory and its airspace. I think it's very important right now for us to make sure that both the Russians and the Turks are talking to each other, find out exactly what happened and take measures to discourage any kind of escalation. If Russia is directing its energies towards Daesh and ISIL, some of those conflicts or potentials for mistakes or escalation are less likely to occur.
This underscores the importance of us making sure that we move this political track forward as quickly as possible. Like President Hollande, our view from the start has been that Russia is welcome to be part of this broad-based coalition that we have set up.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
- I thought I would participate by providing actual news updates. For discussion on actual facts.
timschochet
Footballguy
With regard to the bolded, you can always criticize. My argument is that if you do so without an alternative to offer, it has very little legitimacy.
In what specific manner should Obama have "pushed back" against Putin during the last 6 years? In what instance? And what should have been threatened?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Based on what Fennis quoted that's the message he sent out.And no, I don't want any more threats we're not going to back up. You know, of the "Assad must go" variety. They're part of the reason why we're where we are today.But you don't know that he said that. We don't know WHAT he's saying to the Russians right now.And you don't seem to have a specific response other than "something firmer." In the end, no response we make will be firm unless we are willing to back it up with some kind of penalty or reward. Are we?Something a little firmer than "Stop, or I'll say 'stop' again."I'm not advocating going to Defcon 4, but something a little less schoolmarm wouldn't hurt.Once again, what would you have Obama do? Because I believe that it's wrong to criticize unless you have a specific alternative to offer.BHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
Putin doesn't give two shakes what he thinks is important.
timschochet
Footballguy
Well then, no offense, but you're confusing me Andy. You seem to find fault in Obama for somehow being "weak", and yet your specific criticism of him is that he was too firm in the past. You acknowledge that it would be dangerous for us to make ANY threats to Putin, but you wish he had "pushed back" on Putin during the last 6 years. I just don't understand where you're going with this.Based on what Fennis quoted that's the message he sent out.And no, I don't want any more threats we're not going to back up. You know, of the "Assad must go" variety. They're part of the reason why we're where we are today.But you don't know that he said that. We don't know WHAT he's saying to the Russians right now.And you don't seem to have a specific response other than "something firmer." In the end, no response we make will be firm unless we are willing to back it up with some kind of penalty or reward. Are we?Something a little firmer than "Stop, or I'll say 'stop' again."I'm not advocating going to Defcon 4, but something a little less schoolmarm wouldn't hurt.Once again, what would you have Obama do? Because I believe that it's wrong to criticize unless you have a specific alternative to offer.BHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
Putin doesn't give two shakes what he thinks is important.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I think the response to both Georgia and Crimea were tepid at best.WAS there even a response?
Ladsud
Footballguy
Megalomaniacs shouldnt ever be taken lightly. Putin doesnt care about the average Russian, he cares about the greatness of Russia, whatever that is in his head.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
He wasn't firm in the past. He said Assad must go and Assad stayed.Had he pushed back the last six years he would be able to negotiate from a stronger position today.
You're not really tying to understand. That was easily gathered from what I wrote the first time.
timschochet
Footballguy
Yes. But perhaps it's not what you wanted.
Obama spoke out very harshly, and I believe he suspended some trade agreements. But he could have:
1. Cut off even more trade, creating an economic crisis.
2. Sent military aid to Georgia and Ukraine.
3. Offer military guarantees to Georgia and Ukraine.
4. Send troops.
Beyond these 4 alternatives, none of which we chose to do, I can't think of anything else that would have been less "tepid". Can you? Or do you think we should have chosen one of these 4 options?
Dinkle Heimer
Footballguy
Yes, Putin's plans are starting to falter due to ego and lack of long term strategy. Fact of the matter is he still likes his day job and Russia and Turkey ultimately have very little to gain from more than token escalation. This is about Russia's bombing of anti-Assad rebels in Syria, the sanctity of Turkish airspace, and the life of one (or possibly two) Russian pilots. That is nowhere near high stakes enough to trigger a high scale world calamity, and the Syrian/Turkey border is ultimately too far away from Russia to represent and real threat (besides Putin wanting to save face). I'm not saying it's a complete non-issue, but people are over-reacting and knee jerking to a barrage of social media and a 24 hours "news" cycle from questionable resources. Obama and NATO won't ignore this, but I would bet in several weeks if you re-read your posts; even you'll recognize some of the overreaction.
timschochet
Footballguy
So pushing back means we should have used ground troops to force Assad out? (There's no other way to do it in the time span you're talking about.) Or does pushing back mean we never should have said Assad must go in the first place?
grateful zed
Footballguy
will this be the biggest thread ever?
Fennis
Footballguy
Harry Manback
Footballguy
You strike me as the kinda guy who thinks Trump would make a better president than Obama.What do I have to do with Trump? What does Trump have to do with it?Talk about your non sequiturs.Just like he can't tell you what Trump would do better, he wont be able to you what Obama should do.Once again, what would you have Obama do? Because I believe that it's wrong to criticize unless you have a specific alternative to offer.BHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
dschuler
Footballguy
Saber rattling? Shooting down a jet is saber rattling? Naval blockades saber rattling? Tanks and anti air missiles lining the border saber rattling? These are acts of war and should be taken seriously. In my lifetime there has never been such a war with countries this technologically advanced. Always been one bully against a shrimp. Always been against guys wearing flip flops and throwing rocks. This is much more sophisticated.
timschochet
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
This isn't a situation where we should be threatening, I'll give you that.But for Obama to attempt to tell Putin what he should be doing is farcical.
Look, all I'm saying is that while given the circumstances I can agree with the cautious tack he's taking I think the verbiage he's using won't diffuse the situation but will further embolden Putin.
I think it would have been better if he'd been briefer. "Turkey was within its rights and Russia should be more careful." And not go telling Putin what he ought to be doing. It amounts to a triple dog dare.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I'm gonna say that blocking the Bosporus to the Russian Navy is a major problem if it comes to that. Let's hope you're right on all of the above.
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Just a point of clarification, the Russian invasion of the South Ossetia and Abkhazia regions of Georgia took place in August of 2008 during the final months of the Bush 43 presidency.
Ned
Footballguy
I appreciated the updates. I'm concerned that Manback was thinking about your chub.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Well then you'd better pay closer attention. Trump is dangerous and would be a horrible president.You strike me as the kinda guy who thinks Trump would make a better president than Obama.What do I have to do with Trump? What does Trump have to do with it?Talk about your non sequiturs.Just like he can't tell you what Trump would do better, he wont be able to you what Obama should do.Once again, what would you have Obama do? Because I believe that it's wrong to criticize unless you have a specific alternative to offer.BHO: Vlad, you need to talk this thing out.
Vlad: No.
BHO: But it's IMPORTANT.
Vlad:
