Two TEs to watch (1 Viewer)

[Jeff Pasquino]

Jeff King, Carolina and Visanthe Shiancoe, Minnesota.

I've been touting King for over a year now (just search "jeff_eaglz" and "Jeff King" and you'll find this thread here).

It looks like I'm not the only one buying in on him being the starter this year:

Jeff King

Week 1 in the books

Darin Gantt, Rock Hill (SC) Herald Online

June 1st, 2007

Three days worth of summer school practices down, more than likely eight to go. Here are a few odds and ends we've gleaned:

-- Don't be surprised if your starting TE on opening day is one Jeff King. He's plenty big enough to do the blocking required, and he's got better hands than Michael Gaines, by all apparent measures.

I like him for more than just the transposition of his two names....With Keyshawn gone, it is conceivable that the Panthers will look towards the middle of the field to move the chains. King is a very good TE with great hands. He's an athletic player who can play all 3 downs and can get open down the seam or in the red zone.

Shiancoe I like because of the "Gates theory" - when the WRs aren't good, the QB will go to the TE. Gonzalez benefits from this as well. Look for HC Childress to get Shiancoe in the fold and Tarvaris Jackson to hit the big target a few times a game. I've written about him in several areas of the Shark Pool already, and I think 40-50 catches aren't out of the question. Sirius NFL Radio's Solomon Wilcots also thinks 50 catches aren't out of the question.

Neither TE will set the world on fire, but if you want to wait in your draft to get a second TE but also get one with good upside, keep these two in mind.

 

[einstein2u]

 

[radballs]

Whatever happened to Hilton?

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Whatever happened to Hilton?

I don't kiss and tell..........oh you meant Zach....

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

deep sleeper alert: Kevin Everett

getting lots of positive buzz in minicamp so far and now Royal is hurt. Bills won't have a FB this year which should free up more snaps for the #2 TE.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

deep sleeper alert: Kevin Everettgetting lots of positive buzz in minicamp so far and now Royal is hurt. Bills won't have a FB this year which should free up more snaps for the #2 TE.

Yes, I heard that as well.Are you giving up on Royal though Ruds?

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

deep sleeper alert: Kevin Everettgetting lots of positive buzz in minicamp so far and now Royal is hurt. Bills won't have a FB this year which should free up more snaps for the #2 TE.

Everett is a much better athlete than King, and Shiancoe has been struggling in minicamp. I'm very interested in what Everett does with his extra practice reps.

 

[identikit]

Whatever happened to Hilton?

I don't kiss and tell..........oh you meant Zach....

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Are you giving up on Royal though Ruds?

no, he's fine and his blocking will likely ensure he remains the starter.but, Everett clearly has more upside as a receiving TE and it sounds like he could make a big jump this year after being injured as a rookie and lost as a sophomore.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Jeff King, Carolina and Visanthe Shiancoe, Minnesota.

I've been touting King for over a year now (just search "jeff_eaglz" and "Jeff King" and you'll find this thread here).

It looks like I'm not the only one buying in on him being the starter this year:

Jeff King

Week 1 in the books

Darin Gantt, Rock Hill (SC) Herald Online

June 1st, 2007

Three days worth of summer school practices down, more than likely eight to go. Here are a few odds and ends we've gleaned:

-- Don't be surprised if your starting TE on opening day is one Jeff King. He's plenty big enough to do the blocking required, and he's got better hands than Michael Gaines, by all apparent measures.

I like him for more than just the transposition of his two names....With Keyshawn gone, it is conceivable that the Panthers will look towards the middle of the field to move the chains. King is a very good TE with great hands. He's an athletic player who can play all 3 downs and can get open down the seam or in the red zone.

Shiancoe I like because of the "Gates theory" - when the WRs aren't good, the QB will go to the TE. Gonzalez benefits from this as well. Look for HC Childress to get Shiancoe in the fold and Tarvaris Jackson to hit the big target a few times a game. I've written about him in several areas of the Shark Pool already, and I think 40-50 catches aren't out of the question. Sirius NFL Radio's Solomon Wilcots also thinks 50 catches aren't out of the question.

Neither TE will set the world on fire, but if you want to wait in your draft to get a second TE but also get one with good upside, keep these two in mind.

I just don't see King's upside, except that he might catch a handful of TDs. He's more of a good hands big target than a guy with the profile to be a true weapon in the passing game. Carolina barely uses TE and while King could do something like 35-300-5, he doesnt have the talent to become a big part of the passing game.Shiancoe has upside in the form of opportunity and athleticism, but he's struggling, and seems like he's pressing. He hasn't looked the part of someone who deserved that contract so far in OTAs, but its VERY early. We'll be checking in with Adam Doctolero from KFAN again soon - Here's our talk with him from a few weeks ago - in which we talk about Shiancoe and his struggles thus far.

 

[santo71]

Carolina barely uses TE and while King could do something like 35-300-5, he doesnt have the talent to become a big part of the passing game.

Shiancoe has upside in the form of opportunity and athleticism, but he's struggling, and seems like he's pressing. He hasn't looked the part of someone who deserved that contract so far in OTAs, but its VERY early. We'll be checking in with Adam Doctolero from KFAN again soon - Here's our talk with him from a few weeks ago - in which we talk about Shiancoe and his struggles thus far.

Yeah, traditionally the Fox run Panthers haven't thought of the TE, but that was before Carr came along. IF he takes that job, he has a real history of looking to the TE to bail him out. Billy Miller and Owen Daniel have both been successful with Carr throwing. I think that could play out again, not saying it will, but it could happen if he takes the job from Delhomme.

 

[wannabee]

The deep sleeper TE I like is Lee, GB. The more obvious sleeper I like is David Martin, Miami. Both of these TEs should start and are rarely discussed in the Pool.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

re-draft? I dunno here Jeff, these guys are waiver wire fodder at best. Maybe Shianco but in typical 12/10 team re-draft, I just dont see it

 

[Blackjacks]

The deep sleeper TE I like is Lee, GB. The more obvious sleeper I like is David Martin, Miami. Both of these TEs should start and are rarely discussed in the Pool.

100% agree

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Carolina barely uses TE and while King could do something like 35-300-5, he doesnt have the talent to become a big part of the passing game.

Shiancoe has upside in the form of opportunity and athleticism, but he's struggling, and seems like he's pressing. He hasn't looked the part of someone who deserved that contract so far in OTAs, but its VERY early. We'll be checking in with Adam Doctolero from KFAN again soon - Here's our talk with him from a few weeks ago - in which we talk about Shiancoe and his struggles thus far.

Yeah, traditionally the Fox run Panthers haven't thought of the TE, but that was before Carr came along. IF he takes that job, he has a real history of looking to the TE to bail him out. Billy Miller and Owen Daniel have both been successful with Carr throwing. I think that could play out again, not saying it will, but it could happen if he takes the job from Delhomme.

As someone who saw King play live and in person on several occasions as well as several games on TV, he is much more athletic and talented than Bloom's giving him credit for. As for the offense, the Panthers have changed schemes not just in blocking but also are looking for more versatility at the TE position in both the run and pass game. King answers that question and should be the guy for them this year.

I'll grant you that previously John Fox had not used the TE much, but with "talents" like Mangum, Gaines and a handful of TE3-types, I could see why.

King was a primary target for Michael Vick while at Virginia Tech, either on 3rd down or in the red zone. He had six TDs in 2005, leading all Hokie receivers in scores.

 

[DWidmar]

The deep sleeper TE I like is Lee, GB. The more obvious sleeper I like is David Martin, Miami. Both of these TEs should start and are rarely discussed in the Pool.

100% agree

I also like Martin in Miami.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

The deep sleeper TE I like is Lee, GB. The more obvious sleeper I like is David Martin, Miami. Both of these TEs should start and are rarely discussed in the Pool.

100% agree

I also like Martin in Miami.

I think more people should take a look at the Survivor drafts in the Mock Drafts Forum.Almost all of these guys are scarfed up later in the draft, including Martin.

The interesting thing about TEs is that there's a limited supply of passes in an offense. For example, for those touting McMichael in STL, where will the passes / receptions come from? Holt? Bruce? The departed Curtis? SJax?

Someone's numbers are likely to go downward even if there are a lot of passes (especially if there were a lot in 2006 already).

The ideal situations for a TE are bad WRs and a RB that doesn't get many catches. That's helped Gonzo many years. LT2's catches went down some (and significantly since his 100 catch year).

In Miami, there's ok WRs and Ronnie Brown and Lorenzo Booker. Will there be enough throws to the TE? Probably.

Minnesota is pretty ideal unless CTaylor and ADP catch a ton, which could happen. Even so, I don't see a 1,000 yard WR anywhere on that roster, so the TE will get a lot of work.

In Carolina, who picks up Keyshawn's yards? Jake D also didn't have a great year, so his numbers could also go up. Good news for Jarrett? DeAngelo? King? I don't see Steve Smith getting all of Key's numbers / targets, so they have to go elsewhere (and likely more). I don't see Foster getting much of it, but DeAngelo and King could benefit along with Drew Carter and Jarrett.

In PPR leagues I'd like Shiancoe more than King, but both could be productive.

 

[nygiants56]

Jeff King, Carolina and Visanthe Shiancoe, Minnesota.

I've been touting King for over a year now (just search "jeff_eaglz" and "Jeff King" and you'll find this thread here).

It looks like I'm not the only one buying in on him being the starter this year:

Jeff King

Week 1 in the books

Darin Gantt, Rock Hill (SC) Herald Online

June 1st, 2007

Three days worth of summer school practices down, more than likely eight to go. Here are a few odds and ends we've gleaned:

-- Don't be surprised if your starting TE on opening day is one Jeff King. He's plenty big enough to do the blocking required, and he's got better hands than Michael Gaines, by all apparent measures.

I like him for more than just the transposition of his two names....With Keyshawn gone, it is conceivable that the Panthers will look towards the middle of the field to move the chains. King is a very good TE with great hands. He's an athletic player who can play all 3 downs and can get open down the seam or in the red zone.

Shiancoe I like because of the "Gates theory" - when the WRs aren't good, the QB will go to the TE. Gonzalez benefits from this as well. Look for HC Childress to get Shiancoe in the fold and Tarvaris Jackson to hit the big target a few times a game. I've written about him in several areas of the Shark Pool already, and I think 40-50 catches aren't out of the question. Sirius NFL Radio's Solomon Wilcots also thinks 50 catches aren't out of the question.

Neither TE will set the world on fire, but if you want to wait in your draft to get a second TE but also get one with good upside, keep these two in mind.

Shiancoe?! have you seen him play?! does the guy ever catch anything thrown his way? you'll soon see that the Vikes GROSSLY overpaid for him.

Gonzalez doesn't benefit from a 'Gates Theory', he benefits from an offensive gameplan that features and/or heavily utilizes the TE position, I wouldn't exactly call Eddie Kennison chopped liver, he's a decent WR in his own right. That Gates Theory got blown out of the water in 2003, when Tomlinson caught 100 balls and Gates and the rest of San Diego's TEs caught a wopping 46 passes. There wasn't a 'great' WR on the roster.

So ,no, the QB doesn't necessarily lean on the TE in bad times or when he has subpar WR's.

Jay Novacheck put up stud numbers year after year after year, and Aikman was passing to HOFers Michael Irvin and Emmitt Smithand Alvin Harper..it was the offensive gameplan.

as for the Vikings, in 2001, the TE position accounted for 60 receptions ( 57 for Byron Champberlain), while Carter and Moss caught 73 and 82 passes, respectively.

in 2002, the vikings TE's accounted for 75 receptions,while Moss caught 106. In 2004, Wiggins caught 71 balls for 705 yards, while Burleson caught 68/1006/9, and Moss recorded 49/767/13, and Marcus Robinson tossed in another 8 tds..

In 2000, Derrick Alexander caught 78 balls for 1391 yards, and 10 TDs, while Gonzo caught 93 balls for 1203 yards,and 9 tds. In 2003, Priest Holmes had 74 receptions, while Chiefs' WR's caught 157 balls, and Gonzo grabbed another 71. He wasn't a product of a 'Gates Thoery' he was the product of a good offense that liked to spread the ball around..I wouldn't say the Chiefs WR's were substandard, I would say Gonzo is a HOF TE with amazing talent,and a coaching staff who knew how to use him correctly.

the only `Gates Theory`that exits, is that the guy is a terrific athlete with superb size, great hands, and a knack for getting open. you put Antonio Gates on the Colts, he's still catch 85+ balls. put him on the Texans, with Andre Johnson, and he'll catch 85+ balls. put him on ANY team,he's going to do exceedingly well.

Yes, he'll even catch 85+ balls playing for the Browns!

A successful TE doesn't have to exist,by law or theory, on a team with subpar WRs. you won't find a big time pro-bowl TE on every team.some coaches don't utilize the postition for anything more than another blocker on the line of scrimmage, while others use the TE's like the Eagles, Chargers, or the Colts do.

has nothing to do with good or bad WR's.

 

[thecardiackid]

Anyone have an opinion on L Pope in Zona?

I just took him late in a dynasty draft as a TE3 - likely to stash away for a year or two. But with basically no competition (aside from Bergen & a R7 pick this year), improving offense (line + Leinart), great WRs to draw DBs attention, and a new coaching staff that utilizes TEs more (H Miller) - it looks like he's at least in a good spot.

I'm not suggesting he's jumping into top 10 status this year, but at least situation wise Pope looks it has some upside - especially considering his ADP (23rd round in mine).

 

[JohnnyU]

Anyone have an opinion on L Pope in Zona? I just took him late in a dynasty draft as a TE3 - likely to stash away for a year or two. But with basically no competition (aside from Bergen & a R7 pick this year), improving offense (line + Leinart), great WRs to draw DBs attention, and a new coaching staff that utilizes TEs more (H Miller) - it looks like he's at least in a good spot.I'm not suggesting he's jumping into top 10 status this year, but at least situation wise Pope looks it has some upside - especially considering his ADP (23rd round in mine).

Arizona won't go to their TE much with Fitz, Boldin, Edge, plus Pope isn't a good blocker, and doesn't have much speed. However, he probably will be a decent red zone threat over time. I doubt he will ever be startable on fantasy teams, but may become a decent bye week filler.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Jeff King, Carolina and Visanthe Shiancoe, Minnesota.

I've been touting King for over a year now (just search "jeff_eaglz" and "Jeff King" and you'll find this thread here).

It looks like I'm not the only one buying in on him being the starter this year:

Jeff King

Week 1 in the books

Darin Gantt, Rock Hill (SC) Herald Online

June 1st, 2007

Three days worth of summer school practices down, more than likely eight to go. Here are a few odds and ends we've gleaned:

-- Don't be surprised if your starting TE on opening day is one Jeff King. He's plenty big enough to do the blocking required, and he's got better hands than Michael Gaines, by all apparent measures.

I like him for more than just the transposition of his two names....With Keyshawn gone, it is conceivable that the Panthers will look towards the middle of the field to move the chains. King is a very good TE with great hands. He's an athletic player who can play all 3 downs and can get open down the seam or in the red zone.

Shiancoe I like because of the "Gates theory" - when the WRs aren't good, the QB will go to the TE. Gonzalez benefits from this as well. Look for HC Childress to get Shiancoe in the fold and Tarvaris Jackson to hit the big target a few times a game. I've written about him in several areas of the Shark Pool already, and I think 40-50 catches aren't out of the question. Sirius NFL Radio's Solomon Wilcots also thinks 50 catches aren't out of the question.

Neither TE will set the world on fire, but if you want to wait in your draft to get a second TE but also get one with good upside, keep these two in mind.

:( Shiancoe?! have you seen him play?! does the guy ever catch anything thrown his way? you'll soon see that the Vikes GROSSLY overpaid for him.

Gonzalez doesn't benefit from a 'Gates Theory', he benefits from an offensive gameplan that features and/or heavily utilizes the TE position, I wouldn't exactly call Eddie Kennison chopped liver, he's a decent WR in his own right. That Gates Theory got blown out of the water in 2003, when Tomlinson caught 100 balls and Gates and the rest of San Diego's TEs caught a wopping 46 passes. There wasn't a 'great' WR on the roster.

So ,no, the QB doesn't necessarily lean on the TE in bad times or when he has subpar WR's.

Jay Novacheck put up stud numbers year after year after year, and Aikman was passing to HOFers Michael Irvin and Emmitt Smithand Alvin Harper..it was the offensive gameplan.

as for the Vikings, in 2001, the TE position accounted for 60 receptions ( 57 for Byron Champberlain), while Carter and Moss caught 73 and 82 passes, respectively.

in 2002, the vikings TE's accounted for 75 receptions,while Moss caught 106. In 2004, Wiggins caught 71 balls for 705 yards, while Burleson caught 68/1006/9, and Moss recorded 49/767/13, and Marcus Robinson tossed in another 8 tds..

In 2000, Derrick Alexander caught 78 balls for 1391 yards, and 10 TDs, while Gonzo caught 93 balls for 1203 yards,and 9 tds. In 2003, Priest Holmes had 74 receptions, while Chiefs' WR's caught 157 balls, and Gonzo grabbed another 71. He wasn't a product of a 'Gates Thoery' he was the product of a good offense that liked to spread the ball around..I wouldn't say the Chiefs WR's were substandard, I would say Gonzo is a HOF TE with amazing talent,and a coaching staff who knew how to use him correctly.

the only `Gates Theory`that exits, is that the guy is a terrific athlete with superb size, great hands, and a knack for getting open. you put Antonio Gates on the Colts, he's still catch 85+ balls. put him on the Texans, with Andre Johnson, and he'll catch 85+ balls. put him on ANY team,he's going to do exceedingly well.

Yes, he'll even catch 85+ balls playing for the Browns!

A successful TE doesn't have to exist,by law or theory, on a team with subpar WRs. you won't find a big time pro-bowl TE on every team.some coaches don't utilize the postition for anything more than another blocker on the line of scrimmage, while others use the TE's like the Eagles, Chargers, or the Colts do.

has nothing to do with good or bad WR's.

This post is just so perfect I just wanted to preserve it for posterity.Thanks as usual for your insightfulness nygiants56.

 

[Bri]

Jeff King, Carolina and Visanthe Shiancoe, Minnesota.

I've been touting King for over a year now (just search "jeff_eaglz" and "Jeff King" and you'll find this thread here).

I think you're reaching some if you think King will be a top 12 TE. I say top 12 because in redraft we're talking top 12, 1 per team. If you'd like to discuss if he could be a solid FF backup.....Carolina's O has been simply the run + Steve Smith show for too long for me to think they'll even work a TE in enough. Firing in a panic at the TE might skew the target stats some for their TEs last year. It's been a long time since Wesley Walls.....

The Carr angle some mentioned seems foolish. Top WR, he'll hit the TE some, oft injured RB. We talkin' Texans or Panthers? That's too similarly unsuccessful. Drew Carter has been there and so has that other WR that was good as a rook then fell off the face of the earth, it's about time for them. Also with Carr and TEs, there's one Billy Miller season(maybe two) and Daniels' 4th quarter stats in 06, there's not much in between. Don't make it out to be that he's a QB that loves the TE (like some others have) that's not fair.

The Giants and a ton of reporters saw "the steal of the draft" in Visanthe as a rook in mini camp and training camp. He hasn't done much since. Apparently the Vikes see exactly what those early people saw as they ponied up a ton of money for him. It's quite confusing. You can't look at his production and make sense of the dollar figure Minny gave him other than that initial potential people saw.

I don't feel much like debating his talent. If some here don't remember a few years back, google it. The guy's got a lot LOT of talent. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think he could be a top 12 TE in 07, it's a stretch but it does seem possible.

Kleinsasser is one of my favorite players to watch and he's gonna have to rub off on Visanthe. There's parts of his game that just have to improve and 'Sasser does them all well.

With ya on one, against ya on another Jeff, GL with your predictions

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

With ya on one, against ya on another Jeff, GL with your predictions

Thanks Bri.Regarding the one you aren't a fan of, let's just play with some numbers and see what we get.Keyshawn in 2006: 43 first downs on 70 catches, 128 targets.Now, it would take a leap of faith to say that the offense is going to look at the TE for more of Key's production, but it wouldn't surprise me if 15-20 of those firsts came from the TE position.The #1 TE last year (Mangum) was 21 of 33 in catches and targets for 170 yards and a TD.Couple that with Michael Gaines' inability to catch more than a cold (15 catches on 29 targets, 146 yards, under 10 YPC, 0 TDs) and I see good potential for King.40 catches, 420 yards and 4-5 TDs is possible.Here's an interesting stat and one to keep in mind for two other teams:Six teams in 2006 had two receivers in the Top 20 in Targets. Three were Top 10 passing games (Indy - Harrison / Wayne, Cin - CJ/Housh, and STL - Holt / Bruce), but three were in the bottom 10. Detroit (#23, RoyW and Furrey), the Jets (#26, Coles / Cotchery) and the Panthers (#25, Key/SSmith). All I can make of this is that the latter 3 have room to grow their passing games and develop a third target.The noteworthy thing there amongst those 6 teams is that 11 of those 12 WRs are back - Key isn't. Will that help King, or will it mean more action for Carter / Colbert / Jarrett? (Carter had 51 targets BTW, not bad).

 

[thecardiackid]

Anyone have an opinion on L Pope in Zona? I just took him late in a dynasty draft as a TE3 - likely to stash away for a year or two. But with basically no competition (aside from Bergen & a R7 pick this year), improving offense (line + Leinart), great WRs to draw DBs attention, and a new coaching staff that utilizes TEs more (H Miller) - it looks like he's at least in a good spot.I'm not suggesting he's jumping into top 10 status this year, but at least situation wise Pope looks it has some upside - especially considering his ADP (23rd round in mine).

Arizona won't go to their TE much with Fitz, Boldin, Edge, plus Pope isn't a good blocker, and doesn't have much speed. However, he probably will be a decent red zone threat over time. I doubt he will ever be startable on fantasy teams, but may become a decent bye week filler.

Thx for the reply JUI'm probably being overly optimistic b/c AZ looks like a improving team, but looking @ H Miller's stats over the past couple of years it seems like Wisenhunt should get the TE more invloved vs. years past in Zona. Blocking wise, he's only in his 2nd year so I'd think Grimm could teach him a trick or three there. Again, I'm not projecting the next Gates, and looking more towards the future (vs. 07), but is hoping for 45-50 catches and 6-7 TDs w/ some upside from there (if he proves to be a reliable target) really unreasonable?I just think w/ Fitz & Boldin getting most of the attention, and Edge w/ the improved O line keeping the LB's more honest, the middle of the field should present opportunities. Whether or not Pope has the skills to take advantage there remains to be seen I guess, but it *might* get interesting as he and Leinart develop together.

 

[bostonfred]

I'm a big fan of Marcus Pollard this year. He was a terrible fit for the Martz system, and his numbers dropped off because of it. But he's also the TE1 on a team that has wanted to get more production from their TEs for years, and has lost its WR1. He's not going to put up top TE numbers, but he's a very solid backup and a starter for a team that passes on TE altogether until late in the draft.

 

[datonn]

I think you're reaching some if you think King will be a top 12 TE. I say top 12 because in redraft we're talking top 12, 1 per team. If you'd like to discuss if he could be a solid FF backup.....

Bri,That comment confuses me a bit...as in all the leagues I play in, "little" things such as bye weeks and injuries seem to press at LEAST my TE2 (if not TE3) into service for at least 20% of the 13-week regular season. You can NEVER have enough depth....and I appreciate Jeff's willingness to start some chat over two TE2/3-types who will likely be starting at LEAST 2-3 games in most FFL leagues this season. Someone is if they are talking about either guys as Top 10-12 at their position...but those types of guys can easily mean the difference between 7-6 or 8-5 and playoffs or on the outside looking in on the Second (Real) Season.My own opinion:Jeff King - Visanthe Shiancoe - (as a Vikings fan)But as depth?

 

[Tom Cody]

Whatever happened to Hilton?

Hilton the wonder kid is now a Redskin........please let the hype begin anew!!

 

[Mapmaker]

The deep sleeper TE I like is Lee, GB. The more obvious sleeper I like is David Martin, Miami. Both of these TEs should start and are rarely discussed in the Pool.

100% agree

I also like Martin in Miami.

 

[Bri]

With ya on one, against ya on another Jeff, GL with your predictions

Thanks Bri.Regarding the one you aren't a fan of, let's just play with some numbers and see what we get.Keyshawn in 2006: 43 first downs on 70 catches, 128 targets.Now, it would take a leap of faith to say that the offense is going to look at the TE for more of Key's production, but it wouldn't surprise me if 15-20 of those firsts came from the TE position.The #1 TE last year (Mangum) was 21 of 33 in catches and targets for 170 yards and a TD.

I think Carter or Keary Colbert(that was his name I couldn't think of) should be able to get 43. That's not even 3 a game for the guy opposite Smith who attracts so so much attention. Actually IMO if they can't they should cut em'. I'll play along though-21+15(sentence before) well that doesn't seem like you're asking for much.I haven't looked at the lesser TEs grouped together for 06, usually there's a decent sized group with (ballpark)like 30 catches 250 yards and they bore me for FF. You gotta know this group I'm talking about. I'd rather draft the guy that gets more catches(of course) or some young player that I just reached too much for in the draft. Much more fun. I gotta skip that big group of mediocrity.I guess my Q to you is what makes King better than average?

Couple that with Michael Gaines' inability to catch more than a cold (15 catches on 29 targets, 146 yards, under 10 YPC, 0 TDs) and I see good potential for King.40 catches, 420 yards and 4-5 TDs is possible.

Gaines..mehNo 40, 420, 4-5 doesn't seem like too much I agree. I gotta say though, I'd feel that way about most starting TEs.

Here's an interesting stat and one to keep in mind for two other teams:Six teams in 2006 had two receivers in the Top 20 in Targets. Three were Top 10 passing games (Indy - Harrison / Wayne, Cin - CJ/Housh, and STL - Holt / Bruce), but three were in the bottom 10. Detroit (#23, RoyW and Furrey), the Jets (#26, Coles / Cotchery) and the Panthers (#25, Key/SSmith). All I can make of this is that the latter 3 have room to grow their passing games and develop a third target.The noteworthy thing there amongst those 6 teams is that 11 of those 12 WRs are back - Key isn't. Will that help King, or will it mean more action for Carter / Colbert / Jarrett? (Carter had 51 targets BTW, not bad).

I don't think you're to make anything of it. One could argue those teams have no depth and that's the only reason why just 2 WRs rockedYa gotta recheck those numbers man, Detroit's 5th ranked passing O+Jets are 19th for 06.

 

[Bri]

I think you're reaching some if you think King will be a top 12 TE. I say top 12 because in redraft we're talking top 12, 1 per team. If you'd like to discuss if he could be a solid FF backup.....

Bri,That comment confuses me a bit...as in all the leagues I play in, "little" things such as bye weeks and injuries seem to press at LEAST my TE2 (if not TE3) into service for at least 20% of the 13-week regular season.

Yeah maybe I was misunderstanding Jeff's expectations some, seems so

You can NEVER have enough depth....and I appreciate Jeff's willingness to start some chat over two TE2/3-types who will likely be starting at LEAST 2-3 games in most FFL leagues this season. Someone is if they are talking about either guys as Top 10-12 at their position...but those types of guys can easily mean the difference between 7-6 or 8-5 and playoffs or on the outside looking in on the Second (Real) Season.My own opinion:Jeff King - Visanthe Shiancoe - (as a Vikings fan)But as depth?

If the WW will yield you the same production(or better) than your depth, your depth isn't serving it's purpose though. What I would need to know is that King will be better than what's on my WW.

 

[code]

What's the latest thinking on Tony Scheffler?

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

I'm a big fan of Marcus Pollard this year. He was a terrible fit for the Martz system, and his numbers dropped off because of it. But he's also the TE1 on a team that has wanted to get more production from their TEs for years, and has lost its WR1. He's not going to put up top TE numbers, but he's a very solid backup and a starter for a team that passes on TE altogether until late in the draft.

I like him a lot better than King and a little better than ShiancoeThe Seahawks were just raving about the shape he's in. Most of this is fluff, but the nugget about scoring a 5 on the physical and the good explanation for why he disappeared in Detroit are worth adding to your scouting report:

Earlier this year, Seattle president Tim Ruskell told reporters that he was concerned about Pollard's age, too, until he watched tape of him from last season."The guy still has his quickness, he's still a tenacious blocker and he still has good hands," Ruskell said. "It defies the age, and he's not been an injury guy during his career. So we felt good about it."Offensive coordinator Gil Haskell recently echoed those sentiments to a Seattle reporter."He [Pollard] has played 10 years, I know that, but he did not play in college, and what that meant was that he wasn't beat up," Haskell said. "We do a physical, and 5 is when you are in really good shape, and he is a 5 after 10 years. He doesn't have a knee, he doesn't have a shoulder, he doesn't have this, he doesn't have that. He didn't get the heck kicked out of him for four years and then go to the pros, so that is a plus for us, and I think he is a very gifted receiver."After 10 seasons in Indianapolis, Pollard signed with Detroit in 2005 and played well for coach Steve Mariucci, with 46 catches for 516 yards and three touchdowns. But he did not fit the offense installed by Mike Martz under new coach Rod Marinelli last year, and Pollard finished with just 12 receptions."When you watch Detroit or when you watch the Rams when [Martz] was there, their tight ends were 260 or 270 pounds ..." Haskell pointed out. "Those two guys became blockers so the three receivers could run down the field."Marcus was not that kind of a guy for Detroit when Mike got there. Marcus is a receiver that is very gifted. I know he doesn't drop footballs, which is a good thing for us. I think his blocking will be good, too, because they did block in Indianapolis when they were running the ball."

 

[Reaper]

The deep sleeper TE I like is Lee, GB. The more obvious sleeper I like is David Martin, Miami. Both of these TEs should start and are rarely discussed in the Pool.

100% agree

I also like Martin in Miami.

I think more people should take a look at the Survivor drafts in the Mock Drafts Forum.Almost all of these guys are scarfed up later in the draft, including Martin.

''I'm not saying he's Antonio Gates, but he's going to be used in that fashion,'' Dolphins general manager Randy Mueller said.

 

[Cecil Lammey]

As someone who saw King play live and in person on several occasions as well as several games on TV, he is much more athletic and talented than Bloom's giving him credit for.

This thread sparks some interesting debate, but there's a few things I want to touch on here with this quote.by saying he is MUCH MORE talented than Bloom is giving him credit for is basically saying that Bloom is WAY OFF on his scouting of Jeff King. I know you'll agree that while scouting is an inexact science, there is no way that Bloom could be WAY OFF on a guy. Prefer a guy, be a little off, sure - but WAY OFF?

Jeff King has good hands, not great hands, and does not have the athletic ability to produce much after the catch. He has poor pad speed (4.8 40 I believe) I do like his work ethic and durability.

King was a primary target for Michael Vick while at Virginia Tech, either on 3rd down or in the red zone. He had six TDs in 2005, leading all Hokie receivers in scores.

I believe you mean Marcus Vick here?

 

[Cecil Lammey]

What's the latest thinking on Tony Scheffler?

All indications are that he'll be ready by training camp. The injury was worse than feared initially, but the latest prognosis seems to be better.Listen to our talk with sideline reporter Renaud Notaro from AM 950 The Fan

 

[reg]

Couple notes from kfan...

-Tight end Visanthe Shiancoe has rebounded nicely from a tough OTA session last week and has come up with some nice grabs including a one-handed catch during full team work.

-Tight end Visanthe Shiancoe had to leave the field briefly with a slight ankle problem, but he returned and looked ok.

 

[Cecil Lammey]

Couple notes from kfan...

-Tight end Visanthe Shiancoe has rebounded nicely from a tough OTA session last week and has come up with some nice grabs including a one-handed catch during full team work.

-Tight end Visanthe Shiancoe had to leave the field briefly with a slight ankle problem, but he returned and looked ok.

That's good to hear. Athletically, Shiancoe's got it, and he is an intriguing prospect.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Jeff King has good hands, not great hands, and does not have the athletic ability to produce much after the catch. He has poor pad speed (4.8 40 I believe) I do like his work ethic and durability.

This is basically my scouting report on King also - what he does have going for him is the big frame and basketball background (power forward on the Hokies) - I disagree with Jeff that he can get open down the seam, he just doesn't have the burst off the line or extra gear to do that. King does have opportunity with the retirement of Mangum, but I don't see him anywhere near worth drafting in leagues that only see 20-25 TEs rostered.

 

[-OZ-]

Jeff King, Carolina and Visanthe Shiancoe, Minnesota.

I've been touting King for over a year now (just search "jeff_eaglz" and "Jeff King" and you'll find this thread here).

It looks like I'm not the only one buying in on him being the starter this year:

Jeff King

Week 1 in the books

Darin Gantt, Rock Hill (SC) Herald Online

June 1st, 2007

Three days worth of summer school practices down, more than likely eight to go. Here are a few odds and ends we've gleaned:

-- Don't be surprised if your starting TE on opening day is one Jeff King. He's plenty big enough to do the blocking required, and he's got better hands than Michael Gaines, by all apparent measures.

I like him for more than just the transposition of his two names....With Keyshawn gone, it is conceivable that the Panthers will look towards the middle of the field to move the chains. King is a very good TE with great hands. He's an athletic player who can play all 3 downs and can get open down the seam or in the red zone.

Shiancoe I like because of the "Gates theory" - when the WRs aren't good, the QB will go to the TE. Gonzalez benefits from this as well. Look for HC Childress to get Shiancoe in the fold and Tarvaris Jackson to hit the big target a few times a game. I've written about him in several areas of the Shark Pool already, and I think 40-50 catches aren't out of the question. Sirius NFL Radio's Solomon Wilcots also thinks 50 catches aren't out of the question.

Neither TE will set the world on fire, but if you want to wait in your draft to get a second TE but also get one with good upside, keep these two in mind.

Shiancoe?! have you seen him play?! does the guy ever catch anything thrown his way? you'll soon see that the Vikes GROSSLY overpaid for him.

Gonzalez doesn't benefit from a 'Gates Theory', he benefits from an offensive gameplan that features and/or heavily utilizes the TE position, I wouldn't exactly call Eddie Kennison chopped liver, he's a decent WR in his own right. That Gates Theory got blown out of the water in 2003, when Tomlinson caught 100 balls and Gates and the rest of San Diego's TEs caught a wopping 46 passes. There wasn't a 'great' WR on the roster.

So ,no, the QB doesn't necessarily lean on the TE in bad times or when he has subpar WR's.

Jay Novacheck put up stud numbers year after year after year, and Aikman was passing to HOFers Michael Irvin and Emmitt Smithand Alvin Harper..it was the offensive gameplan.

as for the Vikings, in 2001, the TE position accounted for 60 receptions ( 57 for Byron Champberlain), while Carter and Moss caught 73 and 82 passes, respectively.

in 2002, the vikings TE's accounted for 75 receptions,while Moss caught 106. In 2004, Wiggins caught 71 balls for 705 yards, while Burleson caught 68/1006/9, and Moss recorded 49/767/13, and Marcus Robinson tossed in another 8 tds..

In 2000, Derrick Alexander caught 78 balls for 1391 yards, and 10 TDs, while Gonzo caught 93 balls for 1203 yards,and 9 tds. In 2003, Priest Holmes had 74 receptions, while Chiefs' WR's caught 157 balls, and Gonzo grabbed another 71. He wasn't a product of a 'Gates Thoery' he was the product of a good offense that liked to spread the ball around..I wouldn't say the Chiefs WR's were substandard, I would say Gonzo is a HOF TE with amazing talent,and a coaching staff who knew how to use him correctly.

the only `Gates Theory`that exits, is that the guy is a terrific athlete with superb size, great hands, and a knack for getting open. you put Antonio Gates on the Colts, he's still catch 85+ balls. put him on the Texans, with Andre Johnson, and he'll catch 85+ balls. put him on ANY team,he's going to do exceedingly well.

Yes, he'll even catch 85+ balls playing for the Browns!

A successful TE doesn't have to exist,by law or theory, on a team with subpar WRs. you won't find a big time pro-bowl TE on every team.some coaches don't utilize the postition for anything more than another blocker on the line of scrimmage, while others use the TE's like the Eagles, Chargers, or the Colts do.

has nothing to do with good or bad WR's.

This post is just so perfect I just wanted to preserve it for posterity.Thanks as usual for your insightfulness nygiants56.

Although you must admit, the "Gates theory" seems misnamed.

"Crumpler theory" or "Desmond Clark theory" seem more appropriate with Shiancoe.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Although you must admit, the "Gates theory" seems misnamed. "Crumpler theory" or "Desmond Clark theory" seem more appropriate with Shiancoe.

My "Gates Theory" at TE is that big athletic natural receivers who know how to naturally block out a defender when the ball in the air and can take over games are good TEs for fantasy. As NYG56 said, Gates would catch 85 balls no matter what team he was on. Gonzo would too. Maybe having crappy WRs gives a TE the opportunity to step up and be a bigger part of the passing game, but they actually have to be good to take advantage of the opportunity. The jury is still out on Shiancoe, but (again agreeing with NYG56 here ) the general sentiment is that the Vikes overpaid for him. I like Bri's take, that the Vikes were taken in by Shiancoe's athletic ability, which can captivate in a practice/tryout type setting, because his track record is... incomplete. I would have been much more excited about Daniel Wilcox, Kris Wilson, or Delanie Walker with that new found opportunity than Shiancoe. He is a good player to watch in preseason to see if he's becoming the guy the Vikes saw when they threw that money at him.

 

[mottay]

Great thread guys!

Thanks

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

The deep sleeper TE I like is Lee, GB. The more obvious sleeper I like is David Martin, Miami. Both of these TEs should start and are rarely discussed in the Pool.

100% agree

I also like Martin in Miami.

Martin and Shiancoe are set up in similar situations, but I like Martin's better. Martin is a former WR (a Tennessee WR at that) and has done just about as much in each of the last two season as Shiancoe has in his entire career. Cameron seems to love Martin (including his blocking ability), and the team signed Martin almost immediately cutting McMichael - so they see something in him. The big catch with Martin is his inability to stay healthy, but if he can do it, he should be a good TE sleeper.

 

[corpcow]

The deep sleeper TE I like is Lee, GB. The more obvious sleeper I like is David Martin, Miami. Both of these TEs should start and are rarely discussed in the Pool.

Yep, I have my eye on both of them.Maybe not as deep of a sleeper as the others, but I'm also pretty high on Eric Johnson this year. If he can stay healthy (and that's a big if), despite the crowded WR corp, he should benefit from being in a high-powered offense with a QB that likes to go to his big targets.He's one of those guys I've been targeting in the middle rounds of dynasty rookie drafts as a backup TE, and in redraft I would expect him probably to fall past the 12th in a 12-14 team league. I think he has incredible upside for that ADP.

 

[corpcow]

My "Gates Theory" at TE is that big athletic natural receivers who know how to naturally block out a defender when the ball in the air and can take over games are good TEs for fantasy. As NYG56 said, Gates would catch 85 balls no matter what team he was on. Gonzo would too. Maybe having crappy WRs gives a TE the opportunity to step up and be a bigger part of the passing game, but they actually have to be good to take advantage of the opportunity. The jury is still out on Shiancoe, but (again agreeing with NYG56 here ) the general sentiment is that the Vikes overpaid for him. I like Bri's take, that the Vikes were taken in by Shiancoe's athletic ability, which can captivate in a practice/tryout type setting, because his track record is... incomplete. I would have been much more excited about Daniel Wilcox, Kris Wilson, or Delanie Walker with that new found opportunity than Shiancoe. He is a good player to watch in preseason to see if he's becoming the guy the Vikes saw when they threw that money at him.

Shiancoe is a poor blocker - there's a reason "#69 was an eligible receiver" a lot at the end of the season - and despite this supposed athletic ability he never really impressed me. He doesn't seem like he runs particularly crisp routes, and for some reason always seemed a little sluggish. Maybe I'm just comparing him to his counterpart on the other side too much, but I was just never overly impressed particularly last year. Perhaps Minny's offensive line will free him up to not worry about blocking (his liability) and he can emerge, but I certainly won't overpay.As for not having other talents, despite Troy Brickhands and Travis Taylor as their leading receivers, the Vikings TEs were #23 overall. Wiggins has has a steep dropoff since 2004 where he was maybe a viable fantasy starter.After adding Adrian to Chester and the superb offensive line (and a young QB), they very well may set a record for team rushing attempts. You're going to have Rice competing for those fairly limited catches, and also consider the potential that Williamson will be cured and able to see and catch the ball, and there's not much to go around.

 

[redman]

Whatever happened to Hilton?

Hilton the wonder kid is now a Redskin........please let the hype begin anew!!

They signed him after the rookie camp around a month ago and then cut him less than a week after that. You'll have to look for another team to give him an opportunity to make the Hall of Fame.

 

[AB in DC]

When you say TEs "to watch", you have it right. Both Shiancoe and King (and also Martin) are in a good situation. This is especially true with Carolina's -- with their new OC, whoever starts there will have a shot at great numbers, but will be supremely undervalued in fantasy drafts because Carolina hasn't had a productive TE since Wesley Walls.

The real problem is that none of them (including Martin) have done anything to show that they can take advantage of the good situation. Moreover, neither of your candidates have a lock on the starting job -- Shiancoe will probably split time with Kleinsasser, and King will complete with Gaines. So at this point, they're nothing more than a late-round flyer.

But if you see or hear things in training camp that indicate that any of them are starting to click with the offense, move them way up your draftboard.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

the only `Gates Theory`that exits, is that the guy is a terrific athlete with superb size, great hands, and a knack for getting open. you put Antonio Gates on the Colts, he's still catch 85+ balls. put him on the Texans, with Andre Johnson, and he'll catch 85+ balls. put him on ANY team,he's going to do exceedingly well.

Yes, he'll even catch 85+ balls playing for the Browns!

So, he'd catch four less than Winslow caught last year?

 

[redman]

the only `Gates Theory`that exits, is that the guy is a terrific athlete with superb size, great hands, and a knack for getting open. you put Antonio Gates on the Colts, he's still catch 85+ balls. put him on the Texans, with Andre Johnson, and he'll catch 85+ balls. put him on ANY team,he's going to do exceedingly well.

Yes, he'll even catch 85+ balls playing for the Browns!

So, he'd catch four less than Winslow caught last year?

He doesn't have Winslow II's trick hip to help him fake out defensive players to get open.

 

[amnesiac]

 

[John Mamula]

Analysis wilked and I have done in regards to this.

link

If you want a top TE, you need to draft one on a team whose WRs as a sum will be less than the league average. If a team has a corps of WRs who will be better than the NFL average, that TE will not be a stud.

That's just the overwhelming trend.

In regards to Shiancoe, he is a candidate to be sure. He at least makes the cut for being on a team whose top 4 WRs will perform less than the league average. If nothing else, that is worth a later round pick given the upside there.

As for people who say that Gates would still be a stud on a team like the Colts...history and stats prove that assumption wrong.