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Universal Health Care - Let's make this happen (1 Viewer)

zoonation said:
Good lord you are ignorant.  It is comical reading your nonsensical, ill informed bull####.  It is like a faucet that never turns off.  
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No one is stopping you from moving to your favorite socialist country so they can take care of you from cradle to the grave, snowflake. :shrug:

 
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Ramblin Wreck said:
That's extremely poor choices by the mother way more than a healthcare issue.
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Our social ills are almost all rooted in economics.  And our economic ills are almost all rooted in our inability to shake our economic success equates to moral worthiness and that "poverty as a divinely sanctioned payment plan for a sinful life" mindset.  Our worship of the false god, the invisible hand prevents us from addressing these issues without nonsensical holier than thou :bs:   hurdles.  That is harder than just changing who collects your premiums.

 
MaxThreshold said:
No one is stopping you from moving to your favorite socialist country so they can take care of you from cradle to the grave, snowflake. :shrug:
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My post was more about how bad your shtick is.  It is really really bad.   Sort of like that kid who makes jokes in class that aren't funny and interrupts all the time.  That is you in every single thread.  

 
Max it would be nice if you reexamined your affinity for this whole "snowflake" thing you seem to shoehorn into so many of your posts over the past few months. I don't think it has the impact that it once may have had, and frankly it is getting to the point where your frequent usage of it seems to imply code switching which is just another distraction from whatever the topic is that people are trying to discuss at the time.

That may be your intent but please just let it go.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Where in the hell did I say the kid should suffer?  I'm saying universal healthcare isn't going to keep the dumb mom from taking drugs.  She's still a moron with or without the healthcare.

If you're going to project other thoughts here, at least quote me accurately.  I've said 100 times I'm all for healthcare for everyone.  I don't agree necessarily with the Dem's just taxing the F out of the middle class to achieve it but that's a different topic.
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I would imagine that the supply of 'legally' obtained opiates/meth would be slowed considerably in a UHC system.  Not even sure we can get them here.

 
To the people who are against universal healthcare, what are you holding on to? I don't get it. I had arguably the best health insurance you could have when I took a spill a few years ago and broke my elbow. I went to the ER thinking that was what I was supposed to do with my top shelf insurance and a broken limb. Ended up getting billed $4700 after insurance for a few xrays, a splint and some surgical glue. Gross bill was almost 40K. I was there for 3 hours. It's like they jack the prices up so much that having insurance now is what it was like to not have insurance say 20 years ago. This is just about greed. People do everything "right" in their lives, work their asses off for 45 years and end up losing their house and retirement because they get unlucky enough to contract some catastrophic illness of even their insurance doesn't cover. It's just bull####. Every other industrialized country in the world is up to speed except our greedy, dumb, sick asses.

 
worrierking said:
Tim is right that it may be inevitable.  It distresses me that people have that much faith in government when it demonstrates on a daily basis that it is incapable of handling such a responsibility.
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I'm still amazed that the general public is so committed to ensuring that private companies profit off their  massive healthcare expenditures. I'm not sure why that is, but I have to think that the public will choose the gubment as the lesser of two evils here.

 
Japanese system.  Universal system, most employers take out money for it, anyone not employed in such a way gets Medicare-esq insurance.  No penalty for those who don't get insurance. All payments are based on earnings. Private "gap" policies available.

Done. What's for breakfast?

 
Henry Ford said:
Japanese system.  Universal system, most employers take out money for it, anyone not employed in such a way gets Medicare-esq insurance.  No penalty for those who don't get insurance. All payments are based on earnings. Private "gap" policies available.

Done. What's for breakfast?
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I think you are forgetting about the army of people who are dead set against the rich having to pay their own way based on earnings.  

 
Henry Ford said:
Japanese system.  Universal system, most employers take out money for it, anyone not employed in such a way gets Medicare-esq insurance.  No penalty for those who don't get insurance. All payments are based on earnings. Private "gap" policies available.

Done. What's for breakfast?
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:yes: :thumbup:

 
A few years ago this thread would have been the target of wide spread scoffing. There is recent history (gay marriage, cannabis) of a fast turnaround in public opinion. Could this be the next occurrence? One slowing factor, however, could be that health insurance isn't a very important issue to the big bloc of voters under 30. Otoh, they don't vote much.

 
Willie Neslon said:
To the people who are against universal healthcare, what are you holding on to? I don't get it. I had arguably the best health insurance you could have when I took a spill a few years ago and broke my elbow. I went to the ER thinking that was what I was supposed to do with my top shelf insurance and a broken limb. Ended up getting billed $4700 after insurance for a few xrays, a splint and some surgical glue. Gross bill was almost 40K. I was there for 3 hours. It's like they jack the prices up so much that having insurance now is what it was like to not have insurance say 20 years ago. This is just about greed. People do everything "right" in their lives, work their asses off for 45 years and end up losing their house and retirement because they get unlucky enough to contract some catastrophic illness of even their insurance doesn't cover. It's just bull####. Every other industrialized country in the world is up to speed except our greedy, dumb, sick asses.
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They want to keep the feeling that they get something better than poor people.

It would be like if fire stations were run like hospitals. Rich people would want nicer fire engines showing up when their house is fire, where as poor people should have a fire engine show up that looks like something out of the Andy Griffith show. Maybe the fire stations would provide the rich with an RV, with recliners inside and big side windows, so they can watch the scene in comfort. Hot chocolate too. Upper class, baby. Upper class. 

 
pollardsvision said:
I'm still amazed that the general public is so committed to ensuring that private companies profit off their  massive healthcare expenditures. I'm not sure why that is, but I have to think that the public will choose the gubment as the lesser of two evils here.
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There is a 10 percent level of fraud with Medicare which costs the USA 60 bil a year.  If there is Universal Healthcare, there will probably be a higher percentage of fraud because it will be easier.

So you have to balance insurance companies making profits with criminals making theirs.

Also, health care is expensive right now for reasons outside the control of insurance companies.  Americans want to take a pill for anything (real or imagined) that ails them.  Then there is the drugs, cigarettes, booze and unhealthly food which Americans consume more than the rest of the world combined.  To top it off, (I know this sounds cold) Americans don't  know when to "pull the plug".  When you have great medical technology, you have the ability to prolong life at enormous cost.  Most countries would not spend a lot of money on extremely ill newborns or 95 year olds.  Whatever you spend in your life on premiums and copays, it is likely it will cost more than that for you to live the last week of your life.

 
Politician Spock said:
They want to keep the feeling that they get something better than poor people.

It would be like if fire stations were run like hospitals. Rich people would want nicer fire engines showing up when their house is fire, where as poor people should have a fire engine show up that looks like something out of the Andy Griffith show. Maybe the fire stations would provide the rich with an RV, with recliners inside and big side windows, so they can watch the scene in comfort. Hot chocolate too. Upper class, baby. Upper class. 
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They can still get private supplemental insurance.  Pretty popular in Germany.  Single rooms.  Front of the line for catscans and MRI's, etc.

 
I made a proposal not the other thread a month or so back that I'd like to present here: we place a 50 cent tax on all items at the grocery store that are unhealthy: anything that contains too much sugar, salt, unhealthy chemicals, unhealthy fats. Same with fast food. Use that money to pay for free health care. 

Such a system would develop into a merit based solution: those who make bad lifestyle choices would, in practical terms, end up paying for those choices. Those who live healthier lives would reap the financial benefit of doing so and not be forced to pay for the bad choices of others. And of course, the result would be an overall much more healthy society. 

As an alternative, we could tax the companies that produce these products. They in turn would pass the cost on to the consumer so it would achieve the same result, but it would all be more indirect. 

 
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Short Corner said:
They can still get private supplemental insurance.  Pretty popular in Germany.  Single rooms.  Front of the line for catscans and MRI's, etc.
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As far as this goes, I think of it like a "fastpass" at an amusement park. If you want to pay more you get to go to the front of the line. 

My far bigger concern with total government control of healthcare is innovation: new cures, drugs, etc. How can we as a society guarantee that without the profit structure we have now, innovation will continue at the same rate? 

If I could be convinced of a solution to this issue, I'd be on board with universal health care 100%. 

 
Thorpe said:
There is a 10 percent level of fraud with Medicare which costs the USA 60 bil a year.  If there is Universal Healthcare, there will probably be a higher percentage of fraud because it will be easier.

So you have to balance insurance companies making profits with criminals making theirs.

Also, health care is expensive right now for reasons outside the control of insurance companies.  Americans want to take a pill for anything (real or imagined) that ails them.  Then there is the drugs, cigarettes, booze and unhealthly food which Americans consume more than the rest of the world combined.  To top it off, (I know this sounds cold) Americans don't  know when to "pull the plug".  When you have great medical technology, you have the ability to prolong life at enormous cost.  Most countries would not spend a lot of money on extremely ill newborns or 95 year olds.  Whatever you spend in your life on premiums and copays, it is likely it will cost more than that for you to live the last week of your life.
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And then people are shocked when they find out about caps.  The vast majority of people will not get more in benefits than they pay in premiums and copays.

 
roadkill1292 said:
A few years ago this thread would have been the target of wide spread scoffing. There is recent history (gay marriage, cannabis) of a fast turnaround in public opinion. Could this be the next occurrence? One slowing factor, however, could be that health insurance isn't a very important issue to the big bloc of voters under 30. Otoh, they don't vote much.
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The issues you cite didnt cost anyone dough is the dif.

If the arguments werent part of a "side", America would have already come around on things like climate & health. They're pay-now-or-pay-later and pay-once-or-twice issues. The Rich Man's Club that everybody wants to be part of calls black&white "grey" and wannabe members say "hey". That aint gonna change any time soon. It's Chinatown, Jake.

 
timschochet said:
As far as this goes, I think of it like a "fastpass" at an amusement park. If you want to pay more you get to go to the front of the line. 

My far bigger concern with total government control of healthcare is innovation: new cures, drugs, etc. How can we as a society guarantee that without the profit structure we have now, innovation will continue at the same rate? 

If I could be convinced of a solution to this issue, I'd be on board with universal health care 100%. 
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National defense is not privatized, yet innovation for new bombs, guns, etc.... seems to be innovating just fine. 

 
wikkidpissah said:
The issues you cite didnt cost anyone dough is the dif.

If the arguments werent part of a "side", America would have already come around on things like climate & health. They're pay-now-or-pay-later and pay-once-or-twice issues. The Rich Man's Club that everybody wants to be part of calls black&white "grey" and wannabe members say "hey". That aint gonna change any time soon. It's Chinatown, Jake.
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That's a good point and one I alluded to in an earlier post where I said the battle for single payer was going to be an unfair fight financially.  Part of the problem is that Dems ar erecipients of almost as much Big Medicine money as Republicans (maybe more, I dunno).

 
Politician Spock said:
National defense is not privatized, yet innovation for new bombs, guns, etc.... seems to be innovating just fine. 
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That's a good argument. I hadn't thought of that, honestly, and I'm  not sure that healthcare would work anything close to the same way- but it's a fascinating analogy to make. 

 
roadkill1292 said:
That's a good point and one I alluded to in an earlier post where I said the battle for single payer was going to be an unfair fight financially.  Part of the problem is that Dems ar erecipients of almost as much Big Medicine money as Republicans (maybe more, I dunno).
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You take out insurance companies' share & put in negotiated cost and healthcare's manageable. But that bypasses the two industries that kinda invented lobbying, so it's like "If i replace cash with care, i'll get this hottie for sure!"

 
timschochet said:
As far as this goes, I think of it like a "fastpass" at an amusement park. If you want to pay more you get to go to the front of the line. 

My far bigger concern with total government control of healthcare is innovation: new cures, drugs, etc. How can we as a society guarantee that without the profit structure we have now, innovation will continue at the same rate? 

If I could be convinced of a solution to this issue, I'd be on board with universal health care 100%. 
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timschochet said:
That's a good argument. I hadn't thought of that, honestly, and I'm  not sure that healthcare would work anything close to the same way- but it's a fascinating analogy to make. 
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I hate the innovation argument. Where is the incentive to innovate when the government prevents itself from negotiating prices allowing Big Pharma to sit on their ### and rake in profit? Or when they can jack up prices on life saving drugs with zero consequence? Or modify one molecule, that is irrelevant to efficacy, to extend patents (i.e. profits) for another decade? How does that put pressure on them to innovate?

And maybe show me some examples of where other prosperous countries with socialized medicine have stopped innovating.

Heck, I don't think anyone would call Cuba prosperous but they have socialized medicine and it didn't stop them from developing CIMAvax.

 
timschochet said:
Politician Spock said:
National defense is not privatized, yet innovation for new bombs, guns, etc.... seems to be innovating just fine. 
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That's a good argument. I hadn't thought of that, honestly, and I'm  not sure that healthcare would work anything close to the same way- but it's a fascinating analogy to make. 
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Forget the analogy in terms of innovation- how about the controlling costs side of it?

 
Gachi said:
A lot of people use the VA as an argument against universal healthcare.
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Sure there are the scandals (including exaggerating performance metrics), but in the big pictures the VA is always at the top of the charts when evaluating care.  There can also be wait times in regions where population shifted from the rust belt to the sun belt, but this usually means veterans who have multiple choices on where to get care are choosing to get it at the VA.  

The VA might be far less than what veterans deserve for their service, but the care provided by the VA is better than the average  care from the "best health care system in the world" that the rest of us receive.   

 
timschochet said:
I made a proposal not the other thread a month or so back that I'd like to present here: we place a 50 cent tax on all items at the grocery store that are unhealthy: anything that contains too much sugar, salt, unhealthy chemicals, unhealthy fats. Same with fast food. Use that money to pay for free health care. 

Such a system would develop into a merit based solution: those who make bad lifestyle choices would, in practical terms, end up paying for those choices. Those who live healthier lives would reap the financial benefit of doing so and not be forced to pay for the bad choices of others. And of course, the result would be an overall much more healthy society. 

As an alternative, we could tax the companies that produce these products. They in turn would pass the cost on to the consumer so it would achieve the same result, but it would all be more indirect. 
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I like the idea and in an "honest" system that would work. What I think would happen is food companies would find a way to rename sugar,salt,etc. and a way around the tax to keep sales up and just as the government catches up to the new names they would change again. I just don't think it would work.

 
timschochet said:
I made a proposal not the other thread a month or so back that I'd like to present here: we place a 50 cent tax on all items at the grocery store that are unhealthy: anything that contains too much sugar, salt, unhealthy chemicals, unhealthy fats. Same with fast food. Use that money to pay for free health care. 

Such a system would develop into a merit based solution: those who make bad lifestyle choices would, in practical terms, end up paying for those choices. Those who live healthier lives would reap the financial benefit of doing so and not be forced to pay for the bad choices of others. And of course, the result would be an overall much more healthy society. 

As an alternative, we could tax the companies that produce these products. They in turn would pass the cost on to the consumer so it would achieve the same result, but it would all be more indirect. 
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This is incredibly dumb. Me eating an "unhealthy" bag of chips, for example,  has zero impact on my health. No food is "unhealthy" in moderation. 

 
timschochet said:
I made a proposal not the other thread a month or so back that I'd like to present here: we place a 50 cent tax on all items at the grocery store that are unhealthy: anything that contains too much sugar, salt, unhealthy chemicals, unhealthy fats. Same with fast food. Use that money to pay for free health care. 

Such a system would develop into a merit based solution: those who make bad lifestyle choices would, in practical terms, end up paying for those choices. Those who live healthier lives would reap the financial benefit of doing so and not be forced to pay for the bad choices of others. And of course, the result would be an overall much more healthy society. 

As an alternative, we could tax the companies that produce these products. They in turn would pass the cost on to the consumer so it would achieve the same result, but it would all be more indirect. 
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If you are using a consumption tax to promote public health you are on the right track.   However, if you are looking for people to mostly pay for their own health care you have this backwards.   Smokers, the obese, the alcoholics cost less for  health care over their lives than the healthy.  The reason should be obvious.  They die young.   They die before they can rack up all of the costs for their Alzheimer's or osteoporosis or other chronic, slowly debilitating costly conditions.   Study after study has shown that smokers cost less for a lifetime of health care.  The obese are somewhere in the middle.  And the healthy actually cost the most.

Now, to me at least there are more concerns involved than simply the dollars and cents for health care.  Including among others what possibly those that are "slowed down" due to these lifestyle choices could have contributed to society, especially to those few that cared about them.  And the ripple impacts from those added contributions.   But in the single dimension of lifetime expenditure on health care the healthy are more costly.

 
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Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Sure there are the scandals (including exaggerating performance metrics), but in the big pictures the VA is always at the top of the charts when evaluating care.  There can also be wait times in regions where population shifted from the rust belt to the sun belt, but this usually means veterans who have multiple choices on where to get care are choosing to get it at the VA.  

The VA might be far less than what veterans deserve for their service, but the care provided by the VA is better than the average  care from the "best health care system in the world" that the rest of us receive.   
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This is blatantly false. Please don't ever believe that the VA healthcare is better than what the average private insurance person in the US receives. The VA is a model of long waits, limited resources, red tape and missed opportunities. I have worked in both systems and the VA isn't something any of you want. I only allow my dad to go to the VA for its cheap prescriptions, otherwise he goes to his regular docs and hospital for everything else. 

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
If you are using a consumption tax to promote public health you are on the right track.   However, if you are looking for people to mostly pay for their own health care you have this backwards.   Smokers, the obese, the alcoholics cost less for  health care over their lives than the healthy.  The reason should be obvious.  They die young.   They die before they can rack up all of the costs for their Alzheimer's or osteoporosis or other chronic, slowly debilitating costly conditions.   Study after study has shown that smokers cost less for a lifetime of health care.  The obese are somewhere in the middle.  And the healthy actually cost the most. 
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Interesting, but I think the idea still works in that it would make our society healthier and pay the costs. 

But this is all theoretical talk, for fun of discussion. I agree it would never happen. 

 
Cliff Clavin said:
I don't think you understand how food works.
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I understand how obesity works. I'm fighting it myself. I'm terrified that I'm going to get diabetes in a few years if I can't take the weight off. 

My bad habits, and the habits of people like me, are driving YOUR medical costs up. You shouldn't be responsible for the bad choices I've made. 

 
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