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University Cheerleader with Down Syndrome Denied from Every Sorority on Campus (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter bigbottom
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Sweet J
Footballguy
As the parent of a daughter with a physical disability, this story is really hard for me. As I referred to above, I’m really not a fan of cheerleading (I guess I distinguish between “competitive” cheerleading and the kind where a group of attractive and energetic people on the sideline cheering other people on), but I don’t mind sororities much.
I agree with BB that this would have been an opportunity for a real learning and mixing environment, which is exactly what the college experience should be about. I’m convinced any sorority worth it’s salt would probably benefit more from her being part of the group than vice versa.
But I also feel incredibly strongly about treating our disabled kids as “typical” as much as humanly possible. That means, sometimes, allowing them to get sh$t on every bit as much as your average goober. My kid has gotten cut from teams I thought she was every bit as qualified for, and would have hustled more and worked harder than any other kid on the team. Some coaches have seen it and given her a chance to prove herself, others haven’t. I tell you, it takes every ounce of my being not to take a coach aside during tryouts and tell them, if they just give her a chance, they and the team will be rewarded.
So I get it, and it is pretty crappy. But she sounds like a resilient young woman, so this is an opportunity to grow.
Oh, and I guess this: for all my distain for cheerleading, a huge shout out to the George Mason cheerleading squad for giving her a chance to contribute to the team. Don’t let that get lost in the story. It sounds like, at the very least, she has a community there, and potentially some good people around her.
I agree with BB that this would have been an opportunity for a real learning and mixing environment, which is exactly what the college experience should be about. I’m convinced any sorority worth it’s salt would probably benefit more from her being part of the group than vice versa.
But I also feel incredibly strongly about treating our disabled kids as “typical” as much as humanly possible. That means, sometimes, allowing them to get sh$t on every bit as much as your average goober. My kid has gotten cut from teams I thought she was every bit as qualified for, and would have hustled more and worked harder than any other kid on the team. Some coaches have seen it and given her a chance to prove herself, others haven’t. I tell you, it takes every ounce of my being not to take a coach aside during tryouts and tell them, if they just give her a chance, they and the team will be rewarded.
So I get it, and it is pretty crappy. But she sounds like a resilient young woman, so this is an opportunity to grow.
Oh, and I guess this: for all my distain for cheerleading, a huge shout out to the George Mason cheerleading squad for giving her a chance to contribute to the team. Don’t let that get lost in the story. It sounds like, at the very least, she has a community there, and potentially some good people around her.
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dgreen
Footballguy
Yeah, this type of situation seems more cruel. With downs, I can see a situation where the girls are just uncomfortable and not sure how to handle it so it’s easiest to just not take on the perceived difficulties. I’m sure they ask themselves “Do we have to take care of her? What’s required of us?” With a fat, ugly kid, it’s more likely to just be a mean girls situation.
Also, I will admit I know very little about downs, but I’d guess the downs girl will get over a rejection like this easier than a “normal” fat, ugly person.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
This happens every single year at every frat and sorority everywhere. Again, I don't understand why this Down Syndrome instance is any different... unless befriending a person with Down Syndrome is a much greater life experience than befriending a fat and ugly person.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
bigbottom
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I was indoctrinated, grew out of it, too, but still keep basic tenets.
I find militant and born-again atheists to be the cruelest towards the helpless or marginalized.
I'm not militant nor do I wear my agnosticism on my sleeve. I prefer, in most cases, to keep it to myself.
eta* It's honestly people that have worn it on their sleeve and then disavow and prescribe morality that bother me. You're among them. I'm sorry to have written that. I should be more tolerant, but you've proved your intolerance twice over. It just takes different forms, theism or not.
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rockaction
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I should never have sidetracked the thread, BTW. I tried to delete that comment after a showered and, for me, late-night send.
My apologies to Spock and the others in the thread.
My apologies to Spock and the others in the thread.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
Judge Smails
Footballguy
No kidding. Enlightened thinking to say the least. I couldn’t agree more. Thank you sir.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
One of the biggest reasons I grew out of it is because the religion condones slavery, promotes male chauvinism, fuels hatred towards homosexuals, and worships a god that wiped out the entire human race, except for 8 people, and then after he said he would never do it again he commanded Israel to wipe out entire race of people. If we're talking about helpless and marginalized people, that religion is the epitome of cruelty towards them.
rockaction
Footballguy
That's fair, but literal. I tried to delete my comment.
You could also argue that Christian morality is the foundation for all things that are kind to the meek and weak, much like Nietzsche did. That's why he called it a slave morality. You'd be intellectually justified in arguing the exact converse of what you're saying. That due to a Christian morality we hurt the strong.
That would be fair. It's all over the Universities. And cosmopolitan and Continental philosophy.
So as long as intellectual fads and strongholds go, how's the cheerleader with Down syndrome? Or the Jews?
Let's get back to that.
rockaction
Footballguy
And...I recuse myself.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
It is different. We don’t have a fat and ugjy Olympics. Instead of being shallow and cowardly these sororities had a chance to do something really impactful. Sad they chose otherwise.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I don't waste my time debating with someone who believes this. I'd rather debate with a brick wall. It's more open minded.
As for Nietzeche believing it, that's understandable, given at the time that he lived the archaeological discoveries revealing that those morals existed before Jesus weren't discovered yet.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, have fun with Nietzsche and Continental philosophy. You're so much smarter than that dialectic. Here, here's an emoji to help you out.
rockaction
Footballguy
Archaelogy 
Here, Nietzsche. Meet...
archaeology.
Here, Nietzsche. Meet...
archaeology.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Friedrich Nietzsche, this is Indiana Jones, Indiana Jones, this is...
<<Oh my God, my master. Pleased to have met you, Professor...What is this ark you speak of...>>>
<<Well, it's archaeology>>
(gasps) <<Archaeology>>
<<Yes, archaeology>>
Nietzsche: <<Well in that case...>>
<<Oh my God, my master. Pleased to have met you, Professor...What is this ark you speak of...>>>
<<Well, it's archaeology>>
(gasps) <<Archaeology>>
<<Yes, archaeology>>
Nietzsche: <<Well in that case...>>
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rockaction
Footballguy
That is truly the dumbest ####### thing I've seen on this board, especially primped up as pseudo-intellectual.
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Sweet J
Footballguy
LOL. You keep talking yourself into staying out of it, but then getting drawn back in. I imagine you are like the guy with the devil on one shoulder and angel on the other. “Just let it go” . . . . . . . “F&ck it, I’ve got one more thing to say.”
dgreen
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Shallow? Cowardly? Most of these houses identified who they want to sign before rush started. Legacies. High school friends of members in the house. Girls alums have told them they want in the house. It isn't a free-for-all where they are going to sign a bunch of unknowns hoping they can put together a pledge class. They will have a few slots open for people who impress them during the rush process. As much as a bunch of you want to make this out to be some sort of charity event. It's just not.
Shallow? Cowardly? Most of these houses identified who they want to sign before rush started. Legacies. High school friends of members in the house. Girls alums have told them they want in the house. It isn't a free-for-all where they are going to sign a bunch of unknowns hoping they can put together a pledge class. They will have a few slots open for people who impress them during the rush process. As much as a bunch of you want to make this out to be some sort of charity event. It's just not.
flapgreen
Footballguy
On a positive note, something that happened in the town I live in.
https://www.southernthing.com/watch-heartwarming-moment-tennessee-homecoming-queen-gives-crown-to-her-classmate-2606259069.amp.html
https://www.southernthing.com/watch-heartwarming-moment-tennessee-homecoming-queen-gives-crown-to-her-classmate-2606259069.amp.html
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
We have a Paralympics. We have organizations which put on events for people with autism and aspergers and social anxiety. Girls with those conditions get rejected by sororities all the time and we don't bat an eye. In that regard it isn't any different from a girl with Downs being rejected.
When you say, "We don't have a fat and ugly Olympics", it's almost like you're saying that it's OK for sororities to reject ugly girls -- as if their physical appearance is their own fault or something.
When people single out a girl with Downs syndrome and say "THIS is the kind of person who can enrich sororities!", they are inadvertently endorsing the exact type of hierarchical and cliquish system that rejected this girl in the first place. All you're doing is adding one more category to the "Admissible" column.
I dunno. I just think it's weird to condemn a sorority for doing exactly what sororities are designed to do, while simultaneously endorsing the same type of exclusionary behavior.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Very well said. I wish I could write this well, as it reflects my sentiments exactly. While understand the argument that they "missed out on an opportunity to enrich their college experience" by rejecting her, if you don't think that applies to everyone they reject, then you are insinuating that people who are ugly, fat, socially awkward, etc, etc... wouldn't enrich their college experience.
bigbottom
Footballguy
I am not insinuating anything of the sort. If you think that is what I am insinuating, I have clearly been inarticulate in making my point. As a favor, I would respectfully request that you not assume the most uncharitable interpretation of my opinions.Politician Spock said:
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Sorry, but I agree with Scooter. I don't think you intended to insinuate it, but it is inadvertently insinuated.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Insinuation is intentional, not inadvertent. If I didn’t intend to insinuate it (I didn’t), but you interpreted my posts as insinuating it, the issue is with my inability to effectively state my point, or your misinterpretation of my point. I fully concede that it may very well be the former rather than the latter.
In that regard, I specifically stated that just because this story bothers me, doesn’t mean that there aren’t other stories that bother me involving girls other than AnnCatherine. In fact, the example offered in this thread from DaGuru about his friend’s daughter was heartbteaking and I expressed my sadness.
With respect to AnnCatherine, I stated that due to her having Downs, “the experience they would have had with her as a sister would have been unlike the experience they would have had with anyone else.” I believe that to be the case. But that should not be interpreted as a statement that admitting other girls would not also have led to amazingly positive experiences in different ways.
As I mentioned before, I think this is likely an unproductive exchange. I probably shouldn’t have reengaged. But if you are going to continue to assume the most uncharitable interpretations of my posts, either because that is truly how you think I feel, or because you simply enjoy the ### for tat, I really will leave the last word to you.
In the end, if I hear a story and it makes me sad, it doesn’t mean that I disregard every other story. For example, if I am saddened by the story of a particular child who recently died of cancer, a response along the lines of “children die of cancer every single day, why does this one bother you?” isn’t going to be a particularly helpful or relevant observation, in my opinion.
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Politician Spock
Footballguy
My first post in this thread was this:
You responded:
Your answer to "why is THIS ONE different" was "Because she has Down Syndrome".
You cannot A) establish that they are different; and then b) lift the one with DS up; without pushing the others down. As Scooter so eloquently put it, it inadvertently endorses the exact type of hierarchical and cliquish system that rejected this girl in the first place.
I understand you don't want to recognize that you've done this, which is why I left you the out by suggesting you didn't intend it. But the truth is, you did intend it, despite how hard that is for you to accept.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Their experience with AnnCatherine would have been “unlike” the experience they would have had with anyone else. That is what I said. As someone who has interacted with downs kids, I believe that to be the case. But just because the experience is a different one doesn’t mean that others are without value. I absolutely can express my feelings about this particular case without pushing the others down. If you want to provide details on a host of other stories which surely exist, I can express my feelings on those as well, just as I did with DaGuru’s friend’s daughter. Here with respect to George Mason, I am not aware of any other student who was denied from every single sorority. There very well may have been other girls who were. And if the details of their stories were shared with me, I very well may reach the very same conclusion. Again, lamenting this particular story, while not simultaneously lamenting every other theoretical story of which I have no knowledge or detail, doesn’t mean that I am judging those theoretical stories as unworthy of sadness, disappointment, or even outrage.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Then you're answer to the question "why is THIS ONE different" should have been "it's not."
bigbottom
Footballguy
You may very well be right. As I conceded, I likely have been inarticulate in expressing my point. I do think that the experience of having a sister with downs would have been different in terms of the experience. But that doesn’t mean other relationships that won’t be realized because of the selection process wouldn't also have been worthy in value.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
I tried, but I can't let this pass. After FOUR YEARS, they are still "devastated" by this trauma? How will they cope when something really bad happens?
Unless you mean that they are still a bit pissed off, then that seems reasonable.
jhib
Footballguy
I didn't see this in any articles on this current story, but it turns out that there is another Mason LIFE student with Down syndrome at George Mason who is a member of one of their sororities - Gamma Phi Beta.
She sounds like an impressive young woman, as Madison Essig not only fought for Mason LIFE students to be eligible to join the Greek system, but also to remove restrictions on their participation in student government. And it paints her sorority in a different light compared to what's being said following the latest news.
http://online.anyflip.com/lwob/eogx/mobile/index.html#p=27
She sounds like an impressive young woman, as Madison Essig not only fought for Mason LIFE students to be eligible to join the Greek system, but also to remove restrictions on their participation in student government. And it paints her sorority in a different light compared to what's being said following the latest news.
http://online.anyflip.com/lwob/eogx/mobile/index.html#p=27
PIK95
Footballguy
As a seven year fraternity veteran, who also has a younger sister with Downs, I think I am in a decent position to answer this. The greek system at my school was mostly about party's. It would have been a bad idea for my sister to rush. She had zero in common with those girls, and she wouldn't have gotten much out of it.
If there was a greek system at a school that was 100% about charities then maybe. Even then it's just for publicity unfortunately. I can't really see a scenario where it's a good idea really. If my sister was a big drinker that liked to party then maybe. I haven't met a downs girl like that yet myself. She would just be getting used (and vice versa) otherwise imo.
If there was a greek system at a school that was 100% about charities then maybe. Even then it's just for publicity unfortunately. I can't really see a scenario where it's a good idea really. If my sister was a big drinker that liked to party then maybe. I haven't met a downs girl like that yet myself. She would just be getting used (and vice versa) otherwise imo.
PIK95
Footballguy
On a side note, I am usually pro participation trophies, and that's what we seem to be talking about here (Even without realizing it.) Everyone doesn't always make the team. If a downs kid showed up at tryout for a team, and they didn't make it, would that scenario get the same outrage? What if they took that downs kid but it displaced another more deserving kid? Hmm...
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I do think it may be a blessing in disguise. My experiences with all things Greek were completely unimpressive. That doesn't take away the sting that the girl will feel from the sweeping rejection though. Hopefully through the letter the sister wrote and the supportive feedback it has recieved from people across the globe, there will be some comfort for the young lady.
Ned Ryerson
Footballguy
Ned Ryerson
Footballguy
I brought up this story (the DS woman from the OP, not the woman in the above) to my family this weekend. My wife and sister both were in sororities. My wife mentioned that the reason 75% of women who didn't get bids was the same, "lack of pleasing personality or appearance."
I think having some level of self-awareness is helpful frankly. The reality is that an 18 year old "over weight and to be frank not very attractive visually but very smart" woman should have some awareness of how she appears, physically, as compared to others during the rush process, and with respect to what certain societal norms are regarding what constitutes conventional attractiveness.
There's nothing wrong with her trying to rush, but when she doesn't get a bid from several sororities, and sees what they look like as compared to her, I'm not sure what she was expecting when she sent out a request for an explanation. Obviously the answer she received was cruel and terrible, but what response would have satisfied her? Would the one from my wife's sorority (lack of pleasing personality or appearance) satisfied her?.
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matuski
Footballguy
I know I am an awful person for this, but I have never laughed harder in my life than watching the swimming events for the Paralympics circa late 90's.
Those poor armless people touching (banging) the wall with their heads was too much... I knew I shouldn't laugh but it only made me laugh harder. Flat out in tears.
Those poor armless people touching (banging) the wall with their heads was too much... I knew I shouldn't laugh but it only made me laugh harder. Flat out in tears.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
I don't post much anymore here, but I will add my .02 on this one.
My daughter is in her second year of sorority life. Don't ask me why she wanted to do this, but this was one of her boxes she wanted to check when she went to college. I have outlined some of this in the College Admissions thread, but in high school my daughter was cheer captain, Senior class president, 4.6 GPA type girl--very popular--very pretty. When she went through initial rush week, she was denied by two of the houses that were her first choices. It made her wonder what was wrong and why didn't they want her. However she was asked to pledge at her current house and she is happy. The members of her current sorority told her more than likely the reason she was denied at house one was she asked about payment plans on the dues and that is a big no-no as that house tends to only want the more elite, rich type girls and the second house that denied her was well known as the party house and her being a bio/chem major really didn't make a good fit there either.
My daughter currently lives in the sorority house and is on the exec counsel. They just got done with rush week a few weeks ago and she sent my wife some of the pictures of rush week. She told us about some of the girls who pledged and you know, it is every bit of what you would expect from Greek life. Some of these girls were very beautiful, but my daughter voted to exclude them from her house based on their interviews. A couple wanted to know how they could sneak boys in the house. More wanted to know where the best parties were and where the best drugs were. These girls didn't get in--as well as many others for many different reasons.
To hear the story in the OP isn't that big of a surprise. Girls get excluded from sororities for a variety of reasons and it isn't like the girl with Downs was the only one who was rejected. Every house has criteria for what they look for. The rich sorority at my daughter's college is composed of mostly blonde, white girls. My daughter's sorority has the reputation of having the highest GPA for many years running. Another has the reputation for the most community service projects.
This story just seems like manufactured outrage no more--no less.
My daughter is in her second year of sorority life. Don't ask me why she wanted to do this, but this was one of her boxes she wanted to check when she went to college. I have outlined some of this in the College Admissions thread, but in high school my daughter was cheer captain, Senior class president, 4.6 GPA type girl--very popular--very pretty. When she went through initial rush week, she was denied by two of the houses that were her first choices. It made her wonder what was wrong and why didn't they want her. However she was asked to pledge at her current house and she is happy. The members of her current sorority told her more than likely the reason she was denied at house one was she asked about payment plans on the dues and that is a big no-no as that house tends to only want the more elite, rich type girls and the second house that denied her was well known as the party house and her being a bio/chem major really didn't make a good fit there either.
My daughter currently lives in the sorority house and is on the exec counsel. They just got done with rush week a few weeks ago and she sent my wife some of the pictures of rush week. She told us about some of the girls who pledged and you know, it is every bit of what you would expect from Greek life. Some of these girls were very beautiful, but my daughter voted to exclude them from her house based on their interviews. A couple wanted to know how they could sneak boys in the house. More wanted to know where the best parties were and where the best drugs were. These girls didn't get in--as well as many others for many different reasons.
To hear the story in the OP isn't that big of a surprise. Girls get excluded from sororities for a variety of reasons and it isn't like the girl with Downs was the only one who was rejected. Every house has criteria for what they look for. The rich sorority at my daughter's college is composed of mostly blonde, white girls. My daughter's sorority has the reputation of having the highest GPA for many years running. Another has the reputation for the most community service projects.
This story just seems like manufactured outrage no more--no less.
Hov34
Eephus's Great Great Great Love Child
jhib
Footballguy
There's a rumor that the situation wasn't as cut-and-dried as "denied from every sorority on campus." Rumor is that during the process, AnnCatherine had to rank her top 3 choices, but wasn't asked back by any of those three. She was asked back by two others, but declined the invites and effectively dropped out of the recruitment process.Courtjester said:
I sympathize with her sister's desire to defend her sister and advance the cause of Down syndrome students, but if those rumors are true, this isn't a cool way to do it.
It's easier to demonize the Greek system at the university if facts are left out - even if these rumors aren't true, I have to think fewer people would be so angry if it were mentioned that there's at least one other DS student already in the system.
Drunken knight
Footballguy
If true, I wonder what her reasons were for declining the two invitations. Did she want starter money?
