US and China reach historic Climate Change agreement (1 Viewer)

[jon_mx]

Isn't the complaint of everyone that this agreement isn't binding, and is therefore pointless?

It is not only not binding, it places no limits on China. China is given a free pass to grow it's carbon emissions to whatever level it pleases in the next 15 years. So we beat ourselves up for the next 15 years and meet all the levels, China does nothing. And perhaps in 15 years, China will just say, "yeah we really did not mean that." What kind of an agreement is that?

To argue the other side, though, who cares what the agreement requires of China? What it requires is also irrelevant, because it isn't binding in any way.

Yeah, but we will look like turds for 15 years while it is China who is really crapping on the environment. They can point their finger at the US and ridicule us for not living up to our agreement, while it will be the US who is trying to break our backs doing something.

 

[jamny]

I don't understand the 2030 date for China. Why wouldn't we expect the same from them as we say we will do? Maybe starting 2016.

Who really believes anything promised so far in advance?

 

[Insein]

Didn't bother reading. Do they have a plan to curb emmissions or are they just going to make polluters pay more money as their solution (which is not a solution at all)?

Actually, neither. China gets to grow their carbon emissions for 15 years without any limit and have agreed to stop increasing at that time, whatever level that may be which is expect to be more than half of the world's carbon emissions. No plans to curb at all. And on top of that, they will be eligible to receive carbon credits investments from all the countries that do have limits.

Fantastic. So much ado about nothing.

 

[CBusAlex]

It cements that every effort the rest of the planet makes to curb emissions will be absolutely meaningless. We have all these countries trying to make it a priority and wanting strict limits on carbon, but the biggest producer is free to expand at will. We are working diligently to plug up all these small leaks, while the biggest leak is allowed to expand endlessly. It will both greatly hamper our economy, while at the same time not going far enough. It is the worst of both worlds no matter what side of the fence you are on.

The US is the biggest producer per capita. Not China. Not by a long shot. With that in mind, why would you expect other countries to cut back their emissions (which are already below ours) until we demonstrate that we're willing to do the same?

 

[Tackling Dummies]

Didn't bother reading. Do they have a plan to curb emmissions or are they just going to make polluters pay more money as their solution (which is not a solution at all)?

Actually, neither. China gets to grow their carbon emissions for 15 years without any limit and have agreed to stop increasing at that time, whatever level that may be which is expect to be more than half of the world's carbon emissions. No plans to curb at all. And on top of that, they will be eligible to receive carbon credits investments from all the countries that do have limits.

Fantastic. So much ado about nothing.

Historically nothing.

 

[jonessed]

It cements that every effort the rest of the planet makes to curb emissions will be absolutely meaningless. We have all these countries trying to make it a priority and wanting strict limits on carbon, but the biggest producer is free to expand at will. We are working diligently to plug up all these small leaks, while the biggest leak is allowed to expand endlessly. It will both greatly hamper our economy, while at the same time not going far enough. It is the worst of both worlds no matter what side of the fence you are on.

The US is the biggest producer per capita. Not China. Not by a long shot. With that in mind, why would you expect other countries to cut back their emissions (which are already below ours) until we demonstrate that we're willing to do the same?

Not that it matters much, but the U.S. isn't the biggest producer by capita.China and India have to drastically reduce their greenhouse gas emission growth rate to have any real impact on Global Warming. North America and Europe are limited in what more they can do. What's fair or unfair is irrelevant.

If you are truly worried about the impact of Global Warming the focus should be on how to prepare for it. That's where the money should go anyway. China and India aren't going to put the brakes on their economic growth because of Global Warming.

 

[jon_mx]

It cements that every effort the rest of the planet makes to curb emissions will be absolutely meaningless. We have all these countries trying to make it a priority and wanting strict limits on carbon, but the biggest producer is free to expand at will. We are working diligently to plug up all these small leaks, while the biggest leak is allowed to expand endlessly. It will both greatly hamper our economy, while at the same time not going far enough. It is the worst of both worlds no matter what side of the fence you are on.

The US is the biggest producer per capita. Not China. Not by a long shot. With that in mind, why would you expect other countries to cut back their emissions (which are already below ours) until we demonstrate that we're willing to do the same?

We have already cut back emissions. You are setting it up so China will be producing more than 50 percent of all carbon emissions. That is insanity that they will have no limits. Absolute insanity and we will be giving them cover to produce more. Crazy if you really think CO2 emissions are critical. You obviously don't.

 

[Sand]

For China to be willing to publicly admit that their emissions are a problem and need to be reduced seems to me to be very significant in itself.

The suffocating smog in their biggest cities isn't something that can be hidden.

And that's why this is partly for domestic consumption, the smog and pollution is becoming a source for discontent, protests, political activism and clamoring for democracy.

Yep. Not really. We've seen that. I don't know if anyone is that brave anymore.

 

[pizzatyme]

Yeah, let's celebrate nothing even though some call it something. It's nothing!

 

[Sand]

Here is the agreement in a graph from this NY Times article. It is a moronic agreement that China would have been stupid not to sign.

You realize that China is four times the size of the US, right? That graph actually looks like it has per capita emissions by the US and China roughly equaling out at around 2030.

Per capita CO2 emissions

Looks a lot less scary now, eh?

Please quit bringing reason and logic into this. We are trying to have another red scare over here.

You are better than this. I think.

I'm not above ridiculing people or media outlets for using statistics in a misleading manner. Per capita emissions is the appropriate comparison to a company over 3xs our size. Sorry to disappoint.

I'd go with emissions per GDP/population. It gives a better look at how far behind China is in development and how much further up they are likely to go as they become more of a first world nation.

 

[Sand]

Isn't the complaint of everyone that this agreement isn't binding, and is therefore pointless?

It isn't on paper because then it would have to be submitted to Congress for ratification. Obama has had enough humiliation for the year, I think.

 

[joffer]

Isn't the complaint of everyone that this agreement isn't binding, and is therefore pointless?

It isn't on paper because then it would have to be submitted to Congress for ratification. Obama has had enough humiliation for the year, I think.

noticed you ignored the Inhofe quote before. You think THAT congress would ratify it?

 

[RCon]

Isn't the complaint of everyone that this agreement isn't binding, and is therefore pointless?

It isn't on paper because then it would have to be submitted to Congress for ratification. Obama has had enough humiliation for the year, I think.

noticed you ignored the Inhofe quote before. You think THAT congress would ratify it?

I think that was Sand's point. Congress wouldn't ratify it.

 

[cstu]

It cements that every effort the rest of the planet makes to curb emissions will be absolutely meaningless. We have all these countries trying to make it a priority and wanting strict limits on carbon, but the biggest producer is free to expand at will. We are working diligently to plug up all these small leaks, while the biggest leak is allowed to expand endlessly. It will both greatly hamper our economy, while at the same time not going far enough. It is the worst of both worlds no matter what side of the fence you are on.

The US is the biggest producer per capita. Not China. Not by a long shot. With that in mind, why would you expect other countries to cut back their emissions (which are already below ours) until we demonstrate that we're willing to do the same?

We have already cut back emissions. You are setting it up so China will be producing more than 50 percent of all carbon emissions. That is insanity that they will have no limits. Absolute insanity and we will be giving them cover to produce more. Crazy if you really think CO2 emissions are critical. You obviously don't.

Before this they put no limit on how much CO2 they will produce and now they have agreed to limit them at some point. I don't see the problem.

 

[Sand]

Isn't the complaint of everyone that this agreement isn't binding, and is therefore pointless?

It isn't on paper because then it would have to be submitted to Congress for ratification. Obama has had enough humiliation for the year, I think.

noticed you ignored the Inhofe quote before. You think THAT congress would ratify it?

Well if God wished it I guess it would.

 

[Sand]

It cements that every effort the rest of the planet makes to curb emissions will be absolutely meaningless. We have all these countries trying to make it a priority and wanting strict limits on carbon, but the biggest producer is free to expand at will. We are working diligently to plug up all these small leaks, while the biggest leak is allowed to expand endlessly. It will both greatly hamper our economy, while at the same time not going far enough. It is the worst of both worlds no matter what side of the fence you are on.

The US is the biggest producer per capita. Not China. Not by a long shot. With that in mind, why would you expect other countries to cut back their emissions (which are already below ours) until we demonstrate that we're willing to do the same?

We have already cut back emissions. You are setting it up so China will be producing more than 50 percent of all carbon emissions. That is insanity that they will have no limits. Absolute insanity and we will be giving them cover to produce more. Crazy if you really think CO2 emissions are critical. You obviously don't.

Before this they put no limit on how much CO2 they will produce and now they have agreed to limit them at some point. I don't see the problem.

The agreement isn't worth the CO2 the Chinese president used to say them.

 

[jon_mx]

It cements that every effort the rest of the planet makes to curb emissions will be absolutely meaningless. We have all these countries trying to make it a priority and wanting strict limits on carbon, but the biggest producer is free to expand at will. We are working diligently to plug up all these small leaks, while the biggest leak is allowed to expand endlessly. It will both greatly hamper our economy, while at the same time not going far enough. It is the worst of both worlds no matter what side of the fence you are on.

The US is the biggest producer per capita. Not China. Not by a long shot. With that in mind, why would you expect other countries to cut back their emissions (which are already below ours) until we demonstrate that we're willing to do the same?

We have already cut back emissions. You are setting it up so China will be producing more than 50 percent of all carbon emissions. That is insanity that they will have no limits. Absolute insanity and we will be giving them cover to produce more. Crazy if you really think CO2 emissions are critical. You obviously don't.

Before this they put no limit on how much CO2 they will produce and now they have agreed to limit them at some point. I don't see the problem.

Ok,I will bite. What is the limit? China has only moved from one ridiculous position to a different ridiculous position. And we are supposed to do cartwheels? There is no limit, not even a non-binding limit in this agreement for China.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

For China to be willing to publicly admit that their emissions are a problem and need to be reduced seems to me to be very significant in itself.

The suffocating smog in their biggest cities isn't something that can be hidden.

And that's why this is partly for domestic consumption, the smog and pollution is becoming a source for discontent, protests, political activism and clamoring for democracy.

Yep. Not really. We've seen that. I don't know if anyone is that brave anymore.

And that guy is a Hero.

The Chinese authorities have not forgotten about him though, you can be sure of that. He and others like him are out there.

 

[cstu]

Before this they put no limit on how much CO2 they will produce and now they have agreed to limit them at some point. I don't see the problem.

Ok,I will bite. What is the limit? China has only moved from one ridiculous position to a different ridiculous position. And we are supposed to do cartwheels? There is no limit, not even a non-binding limit in this agreement for China.

I'm not concerned about the limit right now. Just getting China to agree that it's something that needs be limited eventually is a start. My view about global warming is that it's not the immediate nightmare it's been portrayed as but we also don't want to continue pumping it out at increasing rates indefinitely.

As I've discussed before, China produces 25% of the world's CO2 and without their cooperation on limiting CO2 emissions it will be difficult to reduce overall emissions.

 

[Sand]

And that guy is a Hero.

As a complete aside, when I think of courage, that ranks right up there with anything I've ever seen in my life.

 

[[icon]]

HISTORIC KICKING OF THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD!!

 

[Sand]

Before this they put no limit on how much CO2 they will produce and now they have agreed to limit them at some point. I don't see the problem.

Ok,I will bite. What is the limit? China has only moved from one ridiculous position to a different ridiculous position. And we are supposed to do cartwheels? There is no limit, not even a non-binding limit in this agreement for China.

I'm not concerned about the limit right now. Just getting China to agree that it's something that needs be limited eventually is a start. My view about global warming is that it's not the immediate nightmare it's been portrayed as but we also don't want to continue pumping it out at increasing rates indefinitely.

As I've discussed before, China produces 25% of the world's CO2 and without their cooperation on limiting CO2 emissions it will be difficult to reduce overall emissions.

It will be impossible as the biggest growers here are India, China, and a host of other smaller third world countries.

The answer to this problem (if you think it is a problem) has never been and never will be in regulation. Or treaties. Or Cap and Trade. No matter what Al Gore says.

 

[[icon]]

And that guy is a Hero.

As a complete aside, when I think of courage, that ranks right up there with anything I've ever seen in my life.

Yep. Especially there.

 

[Insein]

Before this they put no limit on how much CO2 they will produce and now they have agreed to limit them at some point. I don't see the problem.

Ok,I will bite. What is the limit? China has only moved from one ridiculous position to a different ridiculous position. And we are supposed to do cartwheels? There is no limit, not even a non-binding limit in this agreement for China.

I'm not concerned about the limit right now. Just getting China to agree that it's something that needs be limited eventually is a start. My view about global warming is that it's not the immediate nightmare it's been portrayed as but we also don't want to continue pumping it out at increasing rates indefinitely.

As I've discussed before, China produces 25% of the world's CO2 and without their cooperation on limiting CO2 emissions it will be difficult to reduce overall emissions.

It will be impossible as the biggest growers here are India, China, and a host of other smaller third world countries.

The answer to this problem (if you think it is a problem) has never been and never will be in regulation. Or treaties. Or Cap and Trade. No matter what Al Gore says.

One of the greatest scams to make money in human history though. You have to give them that.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

During this same presser, Obama and Xi took only two questions, one from reporter Mark Landler of The New York Times and one from Chinese state run media. Landler asked about international press access in China, which didn't bode well with Xi, who immediately tried to avoid the question. Obama on the other hand made a not so subtle facial grin in reaction to Xi avoiding the question: [gif]

While clearly annoyed, Xi eventually circled back to finish his remarks by saying the New York Times causes their own press access issues in China.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/11/politics/24-hours-with-president-obama-in-china/index.html

In the US environmental change happened because of the press and reporting. Love Canal was the most famous catalyst but there were many others and it continues. The open adversarial legal system may also deserve some credit.

Nothing will happen in China without the same pressure being applied internally.

Don't forget the Crying Indian and Rachel Carson.

 

[jon_mx]

Before this they put no limit on how much CO2 they will produce and now they have agreed to limit them at some point. I don't see the problem.

Ok,I will bite. What is the limit? China has only moved from one ridiculous position to a different ridiculous position. And we are supposed to do cartwheels? There is no limit, not even a non-binding limit in this agreement for China.

I'm not concerned about the limit right now. Just getting China to agree that it's something that needs be limited eventually is a start. My view about global warming is that it's not the immediate nightmare it's been portrayed as but we also don't want to continue pumping it out at increasing rates indefinitely.

As I've discussed before, China produces 25% of the world's CO2 and without their cooperation on limiting CO2 emissions it will be difficult to reduce overall emissions.

But China had agreed in 2009 at Copenhagen set a firm target to reduce their "carbon intensity" to under 45%, so this agreement is not even historic in that sense. All Obama got out of China is their firm promise that they will do nothing until 2030 at which point they hope their carbon output will peak at some unlimited/undefined level. But if it is still going up at that point, too bad we guessed wrong and China will be on the hook to do nothing again. That is what the agreement said and what all the lefties as celebrating as 'historic'. What it is, is 'bull ####tic'.