US Dept of Justice "Operation Choke Point" - WTH?!? (1 Viewer)

[TheAristocrat]

I'm ok with it when my guy does it but god help you if your guy does it.

 

[Jayrod]

how much business does your friend do in a year to make that 5k?

if someone came up to me and said they were going to go through what i assume has to be a good bit of hassle and jump through quite a few bureaucratic hoops to set up an online guns and ammo store and projected to be clearing about $5000 a year i'd think they were insane or laundering money

Isn't that how a lot of small businesses start?

i dunno

i can only imagine the pain of starting an online ammo business is a lot more than the pain of starting an online pillows-that-look-like-animals business

if after 2 years the profit is 5k i am curious how much merch he moved to make that 5k...

if he blew through a 1/2 a mil of hardware and profited 5k perhaps his numbers looked off to the feds

just thinking out loud

I am guessing there is something more here than just randomly shutting down online merchants...there is likely something else which got attention on him (even if it is something innocent)

none of which means they should be allowed to do it....just trying to figure out what might be happening

Since I'm doing his taxes, I have access to that.

He generated $95K in revenue for the year. His Cost of product was $80K, some of which was accumulating an inventory base. His overhead then was roughly $10K. Pretty standard for a first year business that is successful.

ETA - BTW, I'm stealing the "pillows that look like animals" business idea.

 

[Jayrod]

I'm ok with it when my guy does it but god help you if your guy does it.

I hope people don't think this way, but the crickets on the subject seem to point that way.

 

[B-Deep]

how much business does your friend do in a year to make that 5k?

if someone came up to me and said they were going to go through what i assume has to be a good bit of hassle and jump through quite a few bureaucratic hoops to set up an online guns and ammo store and projected to be clearing about $5000 a year i'd think they were insane or laundering money

Isn't that how a lot of small businesses start?

i dunno

i can only imagine the pain of starting an online ammo business is a lot more than the pain of starting an online pillows-that-look-like-animals business

if after 2 years the profit is 5k i am curious how much merch he moved to make that 5k...

if he blew through a 1/2 a mil of hardware and profited 5k perhaps his numbers looked off to the feds

just thinking out loud

I am guessing there is something more here than just randomly shutting down online merchants...there is likely something else which got attention on him (even if it is something innocent)

none of which means they should be allowed to do it....just trying to figure out what might be happening

Since I'm doing his taxes, I have access to that.

He generated $95K in revenue for the year. His Cost of product was $80K, some of which was accumulating an inventory base. His overhead then was roughly $10K.

i don't know enough to even know if that's typical for guns or not...if it is not it could have been a red flag. Potentially he could have customers that raised a red flag as well, maybe he is unknowingly selling guns to a lot of mobsters or somehting.

i dunno

the idea that someone could say "what do i wanna do on the weekends, #### it i'll selll online guns and ammo" just seems pretty odd to me.

it seems what happened was pretty draconian....but I'm just curious if there is something more you and we do not know

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Here's the list:

• Ammunition Sales
• Cable Box De-scramblers
• Coin Dealers
• Credit Card Schemes
• Credit Repair Services
• Dating Services
• Debt Consolidation Scams
• Drug Paraphernalia
• Escort Services
• Firearms Sales
• Fireworks Sales
• Get Rich Products
• Government Grants
• Home-Based Charities
• Life-Time Guarantees
• Life-Time Memberships
• Lottery Sales
• Mailing Lists/Personal Info
• Money Transfer Networks
• On-line Gambling
• Payday Loans
• Pharmaceutical Sales
• Ponzi Schemes
• Pornography[10]
• Pyramid-Type Sales
• Racist Materials
• Surveillance Equipment
• Telemarketing
• Tobacco Sales
• Travel Clubs

Was flagging all of those other types of online businesses to banks just a cover to go at the two or three to which the administration supposedly is ideologically opposed? Come on.

So you are fine with shutting down all of those businesses credit card processing without due process? The majority of those are legitimate, legal businesses.

If that's what was happening I would not be fine with it.

But before we get to why you said that they did this because they frowned upon his business. I see no evidence of that at all, and in fact I see plenty of evidence to the contrary given that I sincerely doubt the administration is opposed to dating services and fireworks sales. The connection between those online businesses is likely not policy-based, but rather just the fact that fraud is more common in these. Doesn't that seem a lot more likely, given this list?

It looks like gun and ammunition sales were thrown in with a bunch of shady, fraud prone businesses for completely ideological reasons.

That fits with this administration's recent pattern of attempting to win victories in the gun control battle by executive fiat. Presumably because gun control enthusiasts continue to get their butts kicked in the legislative and judicial arenas.

 

[jonessed]

how much business does your friend do in a year to make that 5k?

if someone came up to me and said they were going to go through what i assume has to be a good bit of hassle and jump through quite a few bureaucratic hoops to set up an online guns and ammo store and projected to be clearing about $5000 a year i'd think they were insane or laundering money

Isn't that how a lot of small businesses start?

i dunnoi can only imagine the pain of starting an online ammo business is a lot more than the pain of starting an online pillows-that-look-like-animals business

if after 2 years the profit is 5k i am curious how much merch he moved to make that 5k...

if he blew through a 1/2 a mil of hardware and profited 5k perhaps his numbers looked off to the feds

just thinking out loud

I am guessing there is something more here than just randomly shutting down online merchants...there is likely something else which got attention on him (even if it is something innocent)

none of which means they should be allowed to do it....just trying to figure out what might be happening

A profit after his first two years actually seems pretty good. Especially for a side business.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

it seems what happened was pretty draconian....but I'm just curious if there is something more you and we do not know

It is odd that somebody would set up an online business related to one of their interests in order to make money on the side?

 

[TheAristocrat]

I'm ok with it when my guy does it but god help you if your guy does it.

I hope people don't think this way, but the crickets on the subject seem to point that way.

Yeah, sorry buddy. I'm fully against the federal government strong-arming businesses but there is a certain segment that approves with the correct letter next to a name.

And that is downright sickening and saddening for this country.

Downright sickening and saddening for this forum is the outstanding search function. If we had one, we could have threads on a subject and continue the conversation from time to time (or add new details/examples to a discussion) instead of being bored of that same :honda: driving down the road.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Some background stuff that seems related to Choke Point, right from the FDIC

 

[TobiasFunke]

Here's the list:

• Ammunition Sales
• Cable Box De-scramblers
• Coin Dealers
• Credit Card Schemes
• Credit Repair Services
• Dating Services
• Debt Consolidation Scams
• Drug Paraphernalia
• Escort Services
• Firearms Sales
• Fireworks Sales
• Get Rich Products
• Government Grants
• Home-Based Charities
• Life-Time Guarantees
• Life-Time Memberships
• Lottery Sales
• Mailing Lists/Personal Info
• Money Transfer Networks
• On-line Gambling
• Payday Loans
• Pharmaceutical Sales
• Ponzi Schemes
• Pornography[10]
• Pyramid-Type Sales
• Racist Materials
• Surveillance Equipment
• Telemarketing
• Tobacco Sales
• Travel Clubs

Was flagging all of those other types of online businesses to banks just a cover to go at the two or three to which the administration supposedly is ideologically opposed? Come on.

So you are fine with shutting down all of those businesses credit card processing without due process? The majority of those are legitimate, legal businesses.

If that's what was happening I would not be fine with it.

But before we get to why you said that they did this because they frowned upon his business. I see no evidence of that at all, and in fact I see plenty of evidence to the contrary given that I sincerely doubt the administration is opposed to dating services and fireworks sales. The connection between those online businesses is likely not policy-based, but rather just the fact that fraud is more common in these. Doesn't that seem a lot more likely, given this list?

It looks like gun and ammunition sales were thrown in with a bunch of shady, fraud prone businesses for completely ideological reasons.

That fits with this administration's recent pattern of attempting to win victories in the gun control battle by executive fiat. Presumably because gun control enthusiasts continue to get their butts kicked in the legislative and judicial arenas.

What leads you to conclude that online sales of drug paraphernalia (I assume that's bongs and vaporizers) or tobacco or surveillance equipment or most of the other items on that list are shady, fraud prone businesses but online gun and ammo sales are not?

 

[B-Deep]

it seems what happened was pretty draconian....but I'm just curious if there is something more you and we do not know

It is odd that somebody would set up an online business related to one of their interests in order to make money on the side?

no, i am just wondering if there were other criteria that brought his business under scrutiny, or if the scrutiny was the feds or the bank

perhaps it is as described, perhaps not

all we know is the bank stopped processing credit cards for this guy and the internet told him it was the feds targeting him.

if the OP wonders why there is not more uproar that's why to me. maybe it is all as described, or maybe there's some huge chunk of info that we are missing.

the fact that one cand and does just decide to setup an online gun shop on the side is strange to me independent of the above. There's nothing wrong with it, but if a friend came to me and said "i want to kind of start up a bar as a side project" I'd tell him that sounds ridiculous. I'd assume with what I am always told are low profit margins and enormous government red tape a gun shop would be the same thing. I'll admit I could be way off and maybe it is easy peasy....

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Here's the list:

• Ammunition Sales
• Cable Box De-scramblers
• Coin Dealers
• Credit Card Schemes
• Credit Repair Services
• Dating Services
• Debt Consolidation Scams
• Drug Paraphernalia
• Escort Services
• Firearms Sales
• Fireworks Sales
• Get Rich Products
• Government Grants
• Home-Based Charities
• Life-Time Guarantees
• Life-Time Memberships
• Lottery Sales
• Mailing Lists/Personal Info
• Money Transfer Networks
• On-line Gambling
• Payday Loans
• Pharmaceutical Sales
• Ponzi Schemes
• Pornography[10]
• Pyramid-Type Sales
• Racist Materials
• Surveillance Equipment
• Telemarketing
• Tobacco Sales
• Travel Clubs

Was flagging all of those other types of online businesses to banks just a cover to go at the two or three to which the administration supposedly is ideologically opposed? Come on.

So you are fine with shutting down all of those businesses credit card processing without due process? The majority of those are legitimate, legal businesses.

If that's what was happening I would not be fine with it.

But before we get to why you said that they did this because they frowned upon his business. I see no evidence of that at all, and in fact I see plenty of evidence to the contrary given that I sincerely doubt the administration is opposed to dating services and fireworks sales. The connection between those online businesses is likely not policy-based, but rather just the fact that fraud is more common in these. Doesn't that seem a lot more likely, given this list?

It looks like gun and ammunition sales were thrown in with a bunch of shady, fraud prone businesses for completely ideological reasons.

That fits with this administration's recent pattern of attempting to win victories in the gun control battle by executive fiat. Presumably because gun control enthusiasts continue to get their butts kicked in the legislative and judicial arenas.

What leads you to conclude that online sales of drug paraphernalia (I assume that's bongs and vaporizers) or tobacco or surveillance equipment or most of the other items on that list are shady, fraud prone businesses but online gun and ammo sales are not?

Well, I have actual experience with online guns and ammo purchase. And in doing research on the process and various vendors I can tell you one thing I have not come across: a bunch of warnings to be on the lookout for fraud.

The FDIC actually cited potentially illegal (untaxed) tobacco sales as an area of concern in the policy memo I linked above.

Drug paraphenalia varies greatly in legality from location to location around the country. Before you point out that guns and ammo do too...yes. And the online purchase process reflects that.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

In a recent American Banker op-ed, former Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. Chairman William M. Isaac called it "a direct assault on the democratic system and free-market economy."

This isn't the type of publication, nor the type of person, that you would expect to be Chicken Littling over baseless conspiracy theories.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Well, I have actual experience with online guns and ammo purchase. And in doing research on the process and various vendors I can tell you one thing I have not come across: a bunch of warnings to be on the lookout for fraud.

The FDIC actually cited potentially illegal (untaxed) tobacco sales as an area of concern in the policy memo I linked above.

Drug paraphenalia varies greatly in legality from location to location around the country. Before you point out that guns and ammo do too...yes. And the online purchase process reflects that.

"In my experience online gun and ammo sales are on the up and up" doesn't seem like a solid enough argument to allege ideological motivation here.

Just to be clear- I don't mean to defend heavy-handed tactics regarding bank support for these industries. But that's a different matter than suggesting that the targeting is being done for ideological reasons. Two separate accusations. From a preliminary review of this stuff I have concerns about the former, but I don't see any reason at all to suspect the latter. We're not talking about an Edwin Meese style DOJ here. This administration has never seemed interested in targeting "immoral" industries.

 

[Jayrod]

it seems what happened was pretty draconian....but I'm just curious if there is something more you and we do not know

It is odd that somebody would set up an online business related to one of their interests in order to make money on the side?

no, i am just wondering if there were other criteria that brought his business under scrutiny, or if the scrutiny was the feds or the bank

perhaps it is as described, perhaps not

all we know is the bank stopped processing credit cards for this guy and the internet told him it was the feds targeting him.

if the OP wonders why there is not more uproar that's why to me. maybe it is all as described, or maybe there's some huge chunk of info that we are missing.

the fact that one cand and does just decide to setup an online gun shop on the side is strange to me independent of the above. There's nothing wrong with it, but if a friend came to me and said "i want to kind of start up a bar as a side project" I'd tell him that sounds ridiculous. I'd assume with what I am always told are low profit margins and enormous government red tape a gun shop would be the same thing. I'll admit I could be way off and maybe it is easy peasy....

First of all, what is up with the quadruple spacing? Its too consistent not to be intentional.

And since you seem to be all skeptical, my friend is ex-military. He has a large collection of guns himself. He came across someone who had a large stock of ammunition and offered to sell it to him for a relatively inexpensive price. My friend looked into it, formed the LLC, got his retail gun license and bought the ammo. He then started hunting online and through connections with other gun enthusiasts and found more and more good deals where he thought he could make a profit. Now he is established and has been operating for over a year.

Its pretty standard fair for a small side businesses. Find something you are knowledgeable about, give it a shot and see where it goes. It is getting better and he told me (didn't see the numbers) that these first three months were all better than any month last year. I know this guy well. He's the kind of guy who builds everything himself and gets bored if he isn't doing something productive. He's got a legitimate business here and there are zero warning signs in his volume of activity.

If he was effected by this, it was either an accident or they are targeting specific businesses regardless of the facts.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Well, I have actual experience with online guns and ammo purchase. And in doing research on the process and various vendors I can tell you one thing I have not come across: a bunch of warnings to be on the lookout for fraud.

The FDIC actually cited potentially illegal (untaxed) tobacco sales as an area of concern in the policy memo I linked above.

Drug paraphenalia varies greatly in legality from location to location around the country. Before you point out that guns and ammo do too...yes. And the online purchase process reflects that.

"In my experience online gun and ammo sales are on the up and up" doesn't seem like a solid enough argument to allege ideological motivation here.

Just to be clear- I don't mean to defend heavy-handed tactics regarding bank support for these industries. But that's a different matter than suggesting that the targeting is being done for ideological reasons. Two separate accusations. From a preliminary review of this stuff I have concerns about the former, but I don't see any reason at all to suspect the latter. We're not talking about an Edwin Meese style DOJ here. This administration has never seemed interested in targeting "immoral" industries.

I'll be the first to admit that my personal experience is fairly narrow. A quick Google search of the terms "online ammunition sales" and "fraud" produce a mountain of references to Operation Choke Point and little else. That isn't scientific either.

I'll admit to being cynical about this administration when it comes to things like this, for two reasons:

(1) unresolved questions related to the IRS misconduct, and

(2) the fact that the BATF recently tried to categorize one of the most commonly available types of ammunition in 5.56mm (the caliber of the dreaded AR-15) as "armor piercing", despite the fact that it did not meet the administrative, military or statutory definition of that term. Doing so would have made NATO surplus illegal and would have spiked the price of all 5.56mm ammo.

 

[Jayrod]

Well, I have actual experience with online guns and ammo purchase. And in doing research on the process and various vendors I can tell you one thing I have not come across: a bunch of warnings to be on the lookout for fraud.

The FDIC actually cited potentially illegal (untaxed) tobacco sales as an area of concern in the policy memo I linked above.

Drug paraphenalia varies greatly in legality from location to location around the country. Before you point out that guns and ammo do too...yes. And the online purchase process reflects that.

"In my experience online gun and ammo sales are on the up and up" doesn't seem like a solid enough argument to allege ideological motivation here.

Just to be clear- I don't mean to defend heavy-handed tactics regarding bank support for these industries. But that's a different matter than suggesting that the targeting is being done for ideological reasons. Two separate accusations. From a preliminary review of this stuff I have concerns about the former, but I don't see any reason at all to suspect the latter. We're not talking about an Edwin Meese style DOJ here. This administration has never seemed interested in targeting "immoral" industries.

The gun industry is heavily regulated. You have the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms already involved and state licensing requirements. Its not like anyone putting "guns" or "ammo" in their legal name haven't already jumped through a lot of hoops. It is also not a cash based business.

Doesn't make sense to be included in this list (other than ideology).

 

[TobiasFunke]

Well, I have actual experience with online guns and ammo purchase. And in doing research on the process and various vendors I can tell you one thing I have not come across: a bunch of warnings to be on the lookout for fraud.

The FDIC actually cited potentially illegal (untaxed) tobacco sales as an area of concern in the policy memo I linked above.

Drug paraphenalia varies greatly in legality from location to location around the country. Before you point out that guns and ammo do too...yes. And the online purchase process reflects that.

"In my experience online gun and ammo sales are on the up and up" doesn't seem like a solid enough argument to allege ideological motivation here.

Just to be clear- I don't mean to defend heavy-handed tactics regarding bank support for these industries. But that's a different matter than suggesting that the targeting is being done for ideological reasons. Two separate accusations. From a preliminary review of this stuff I have concerns about the former, but I don't see any reason at all to suspect the latter. We're not talking about an Edwin Meese style DOJ here. This administration has never seemed interested in targeting "immoral" industries.

The gun industry is heavily regulated. You have the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms already involved and state licensing requirements. Its not like anyone putting "guns" or "ammo" in their legal name haven't already jumped through a lot of hoops. It is also not a cash based business.

Doesn't make sense to be included in this list (other than ideology).

Every word if this is also true of tobacco. Most of it is true about a number of the other industries on the list, too.

From the Internet Crime Complaint Center (apparently an FBI project with some other agencies), May 2013:

INCREASE IN ONLINE FRAUDULENT GUN SALESCriminals capitalize on current events highlighted by the media, especially when the topic draws a significant amount of attention. The IC3 often sees evidence of this via complaints. One topic in particular that has continued to receive national attention is gun legislation reform. As a result, gun sales have skyrocketed. Consumers are not only purchasing firearms in stores, but online as well. The IC3 has seen an uptick in the number of complaints recently filed reporting fraudulent advertisements for firearms. Criminals entice victims into purchasing the firearms by using photos and descriptions hijacked from online firearm ads and advertise the firearms for below market value. The majority of the type of firearm that victims were attempting to purchase was a long gun.

In order to convince the buyer the transaction is legitimate, the criminal sometimes provides the victim a copy of a military photo ID via email, which they claim is theirs. Criminals also appear to know the procedures of transferring firearms by arranging for the firearm to be delivered to the victim’s local Federal Firearm Licensee (FFL). Many of the complainants fell for the scam, losing hundreds to over a thousand dollars in each transaction.

link

Are you saying that made this up?

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Well, I have actual experience with online guns and ammo purchase. And in doing research on the process and various vendors I can tell you one thing I have not come across: a bunch of warnings to be on the lookout for fraud.

The FDIC actually cited potentially illegal (untaxed) tobacco sales as an area of concern in the policy memo I linked above.

Drug paraphenalia varies greatly in legality from location to location around the country. Before you point out that guns and ammo do too...yes. And the online purchase process reflects that.

"In my experience online gun and ammo sales are on the up and up" doesn't seem like a solid enough argument to allege ideological motivation here.

Just to be clear- I don't mean to defend heavy-handed tactics regarding bank support for these industries. But that's a different matter than suggesting that the targeting is being done for ideological reasons. Two separate accusations. From a preliminary review of this stuff I have concerns about the former, but I don't see any reason at all to suspect the latter. We're not talking about an Edwin Meese style DOJ here. This administration has never seemed interested in targeting "immoral" industries.

The gun industry is heavily regulated. You have the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms already involved and state licensing requirements. Its not like anyone putting "guns" or "ammo" in their legal name haven't already jumped through a lot of hoops. It is also not a cash based business.

Doesn't make sense to be included in this list (other than ideology).

Every word if this is also true of tobacco. Most of it is true about a number of the other industries on the list, too.

From the Internet Crime Complaint Center (apparently an FBI project with some other agencies), May 2013:

INCREASE IN ONLINE FRAUDULENT GUN SALESCriminals capitalize on current events highlighted by the media, especially when the topic draws a significant amount of attention. The IC3 often sees evidence of this via complaints. One topic in particular that has continued to receive national attention is gun legislation reform. As a result, gun sales have skyrocketed. Consumers are not only purchasing firearms in stores, but online as well. The IC3 has seen an uptick in the number of complaints recently filed reporting fraudulent advertisements for firearms. Criminals entice victims into purchasing the firearms by using photos and descriptions hijacked from online firearm ads and advertise the firearms for below market value. The majority of the type of firearm that victims were attempting to purchase was a long gun.

In order to convince the buyer the transaction is legitimate, the criminal sometimes provides the victim a copy of a military photo ID via email, which they claim is theirs. Criminals also appear to know the procedures of transferring firearms by arranging for the firearm to be delivered to the victim’s local Federal Firearm Licensee (FFL). Many of the complainants fell for the scam, losing hundreds to over a thousand dollars in each transaction.

link

Are you saying that made this up?

I certainly am not. I didn't come across that in a quick Google search.

Given the rapid growth in the firearms industry over the past several years, it stands to reason that there would be an increased incidence of fraud.

It still doesn't make sense as a reason to choke off legitimate businesses. And I am still cynical about the motivations for the reasons I stated above.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Looks like North Carolina police are also part of this elaborate scheme to pretend there's fraud in online gun sales in order to authorize DOJ to go after the credit card companies that support them in a roundabout attack on the firearms industry.

And ATF is in on it too!

 

[TobiasFunke]

Well, I have actual experience with online guns and ammo purchase. And in doing research on the process and various vendors I can tell you one thing I have not come across: a bunch of warnings to be on the lookout for fraud.

The FDIC actually cited potentially illegal (untaxed) tobacco sales as an area of concern in the policy memo I linked above.

Drug paraphenalia varies greatly in legality from location to location around the country. Before you point out that guns and ammo do too...yes. And the online purchase process reflects that.

"In my experience online gun and ammo sales are on the up and up" doesn't seem like a solid enough argument to allege ideological motivation here.

Just to be clear- I don't mean to defend heavy-handed tactics regarding bank support for these industries. But that's a different matter than suggesting that the targeting is being done for ideological reasons. Two separate accusations. From a preliminary review of this stuff I have concerns about the former, but I don't see any reason at all to suspect the latter. We're not talking about an Edwin Meese style DOJ here. This administration has never seemed interested in targeting "immoral" industries.

The gun industry is heavily regulated. You have the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms already involved and state licensing requirements. Its not like anyone putting "guns" or "ammo" in their legal name haven't already jumped through a lot of hoops. It is also not a cash based business.

Doesn't make sense to be included in this list (other than ideology).

Every word if this is also true of tobacco. Most of it is true about a number of the other industries on the list, too.

From the Internet Crime Complaint Center (apparently an FBI project with some other agencies), May 2013:

INCREASE IN ONLINE FRAUDULENT GUN SALESCriminals capitalize on current events highlighted by the media, especially when the topic draws a significant amount of attention. The IC3 often sees evidence of this via complaints. One topic in particular that has continued to receive national attention is gun legislation reform. As a result, gun sales have skyrocketed. Consumers are not only purchasing firearms in stores, but online as well. The IC3 has seen an uptick in the number of complaints recently filed reporting fraudulent advertisements for firearms. Criminals entice victims into purchasing the firearms by using photos and descriptions hijacked from online firearm ads and advertise the firearms for below market value. The majority of the type of firearm that victims were attempting to purchase was a long gun.

In order to convince the buyer the transaction is legitimate, the criminal sometimes provides the victim a copy of a military photo ID via email, which they claim is theirs. Criminals also appear to know the procedures of transferring firearms by arranging for the firearm to be delivered to the victim’s local Federal Firearm Licensee (FFL). Many of the complainants fell for the scam, losing hundreds to over a thousand dollars in each transaction.

link

Are you saying that made this up?

I certainly am not. I didn't come across that in a quick Google search.

Given the rapid growth in the firearms industry over the past several years, it stands to reason that there would be an increased incidence of fraud.

It still doesn't make sense as a reason to choke off legitimate businesses. And I am still cynical about the motivations for the reasons I stated above.

Totally agree with the bolded. Like I said, two different questions.

 

[RCon]

And oddly enough it was targeted at activities the current administration frowned upon, like gun and ammo sales, escort services, online gambling and payday loans.

the current administration frowns on escort services?

Well, compared to two administrations ago, it absolutely does.

 

[shadrap]

how much business does your friend do in a year to make that 5k?

if someone came up to me and said they were going to go through what i assume has to be a good bit of hassle and jump through quite a few bureaucratic hoops to set up an online guns and ammo store and projected to be clearing about $5000 a year i'd think they were insane or laundering money

If I was to guess I would say he likes the $5000 profit. Probably chickenfeed for you, but not for him.

 

[NCCommish]

Here's the list:

• Ammunition Sales
• Cable Box De-scramblers
• Coin Dealers
• Credit Card Schemes
• Credit Repair Services
• Dating Services
• Debt Consolidation Scams
• Drug Paraphernalia
• Escort Services
• Firearms Sales
• Fireworks Sales
• Get Rich Products
• Government Grants
• Home-Based Charities
• Life-Time Guarantees
• Life-Time Memberships
• Lottery Sales
• Mailing Lists/Personal Info
• Money Transfer Networks
• On-line Gambling
• Payday Loans
• Pharmaceutical Sales
• Ponzi Schemes
• Pornography[10]
• Pyramid-Type Sales
• Racist Materials
• Surveillance Equipment
• Telemarketing
• Tobacco Sales
• Travel Clubs

Was flagging all of those other types of online businesses to banks just a cover to go at the two or three to which the administration supposedly is ideologically opposed? Come on.

So you are fine with shutting down all of those businesses credit card processing without due process? The majority of those are legitimate, legal businesses.

Actually that is pretty much the list of the top sources of fraud on the net. Everybody should get due process so obviously this was ham handed and stupid but I don't think it was political.

 

[The Big Guy]

This is nothing different than the banks not wanting accounts from the pot dispensaries and atm owners. Too much potential for problems that presents headaches that the bank doesn't need, so they essentially fire you as a customer. What your friend needs to do is find out which processors are gun friendly and would also look for a gun friendly bank as a back up too,so he can keep things flowing

 

[Jayrod]

Well, I have actual experience with online guns and ammo purchase. And in doing research on the process and various vendors I can tell you one thing I have not come across: a bunch of warnings to be on the lookout for fraud.

The FDIC actually cited potentially illegal (untaxed) tobacco sales as an area of concern in the policy memo I linked above.

Drug paraphenalia varies greatly in legality from location to location around the country. Before you point out that guns and ammo do too...yes. And the online purchase process reflects that.

"In my experience online gun and ammo sales are on the up and up" doesn't seem like a solid enough argument to allege ideological motivation here.

Just to be clear- I don't mean to defend heavy-handed tactics regarding bank support for these industries. But that's a different matter than suggesting that the targeting is being done for ideological reasons. Two separate accusations. From a preliminary review of this stuff I have concerns about the former, but I don't see any reason at all to suspect the latter. We're not talking about an Edwin Meese style DOJ here. This administration has never seemed interested in targeting "immoral" industries.

The gun industry is heavily regulated. You have the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms already involved and state licensing requirements. Its not like anyone putting "guns" or "ammo" in their legal name haven't already jumped through a lot of hoops. It is also not a cash based business.Doesn't make sense to be included in this list (other than ideology).

Every word if this is also true of tobacco. Most of it is true about a number of the other industries on the list, too.

From the Internet Crime Complaint Center (apparently an FBI project with some other agencies), May 2013:

INCREASE IN ONLINE FRAUDULENT GUN SALES

Criminals capitalize on current events highlighted by the media, especially when the topic draws a significant amount of attention. The IC3 often sees evidence of this via complaints. One topic in particular that has continued to receive national attention is gun legislation reform. As a result, gun sales have skyrocketed. Consumers are not only purchasing firearms in stores, but online as well. The IC3 has seen an uptick in the number of complaints recently filed reporting fraudulent advertisements for firearms. Criminals entice victims into purchasing the firearms by using photos and descriptions hijacked from online firearm ads and advertise the firearms for below market value. The majority of the type of firearm that victims were attempting to purchase was a long gun.

In order to convince the buyer the transaction is legitimate, the criminal sometimes provides the victim a copy of a military photo ID via email, which they claim is theirs. Criminals also appear to know the procedures of transferring firearms by arranging for the firearm to be delivered to the victims local Federal Firearm Licensee (FFL). Many of the complainants fell for the scam, losing hundreds to over a thousand dollars in each transaction.

link

Are you saying that made this up?

Ok, point taken. I'm thinking you are right. Maybe it wasn't political and more reactionary to trends. Poor policy (that has been stopped), but nothing more than an overzealous DOJ.

It sure seemed odd, my one anecdote, but if that kind of online scamming is going on, then his business could be within the parameters that would have triggered a response.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Seriously, go see a good lawyer with federal whistle blower experience. Your friend/client may have a case for illegal detention of property. My guess is there is no actual law behind this.

 

[Jayrod]

Seriously, go see a good lawyer with federal whistle blower experience. Your friend/client may have a case for illegal detention of property. My guess is there is no actual law behind this.

He really said he was not interested in fighting it. It just wasn't worth it to them at this time in his life. Also I think the DOJ was able to avoid any kind of issues here because they convinced the credit card companies to do it themselves. And the credit card companies have written in the contract that they can hold funds for up to hundred and 80 days.

 

[Johnny Rock]

I agree with the Op-Ed piece...this is chilling.

Gun business or not the DOJ should treat each case of suspected fraud individually. I can see not wanting to spend the money to sue but why not join the Class Action Lawsuit? Allow deeper pockets to fight against this travesty and for those who possibly didn't weather the storm as easily as he did.

Shame on the banks for caving to this crap. Can an investigative reporter or Snowden give us a list?