USA Shootings (2 Viewers)

[-fish-]

Firearms accounted for 50-51% of the suicides in 2017, so it's not impossible to reduce gun deaths by 50% without addressing mental health. 

A significant amount of those were youth suicides and could have been prevented by safe storage of the weapons.   Just keeping guns securely stored can prevent many suicides without creating any new mental health regulations.   

 

[KCitons]

Firearms accounted for 50-51% of the suicides in 2017, so it's not impossible to reduce gun deaths by 50% without addressing mental health. 

Link?

According to this article

There were 39,773 gun deaths in 2017, up by more than 1,000 from the year before. Nearly two-thirds were suicides. It was the largest yearly total on record in the C.D.C.’s electronic database, which goes back 50 years, and reflects the sheer number of lives lost.

And this article

But the murder rates in America’s cities appear to be falling. On Tuesday, the Brennan Center for Justice published an analysis of annual FBI crime data that concluded

So now it’s 2018, and though more people are being shot, it seems fewer are being murdered. What gives?

A couple of factors are at play. The big one is suicide. As my colleague Olga Khazan reported in November, the suicide rate in America has gone up 3.7 percent in the past year. A 2017 CDC report found that with little exception, larger percentages of suicides each year are committed with firearms, while methods such as poisoning have increasingly fallen to the wayside. And the agency’s new report makes clear that the majority of people who kill with a gun shoot themselves, not others: Suicides account for 60 percent of the country’s gun deaths.

And this article

At least 14,611 Americans were killed by guns last year, excluding most suicides, according to data collected by Gun Violence Archive, a nonprofit that tracks shootings through media and law enforcement reports. That’s a nearly 7 percent drop compared to last year, and the first decline recorded by GVA in its five-year history.

 

[KCitons]

A significant amount of those were youth suicides and could have been prevented by safe storage of the weapons.   Just keeping guns securely stored can prevent many suicides without creating any new mental health regulations.   

Without a link to back up data, this is a lie. 

Mental health would have wide spread benefits to society. 

More gun regulation, just for the sake of regulation.

 

[Politician Spock]

Firearms accounted for 50-51% of the suicides in 2017, so it's not impossible to reduce gun deaths by 50% without addressing mental health. 

Only a 10% reduction would still save 4,000 lives. 

Ideally our goal should be 100%, but that's not anywhere near pragmatic. A more realistic goal would be to reduce our levels of gun deaths to that of other developed countries, but even that may not be pragmatic given how many guns exist in our country, and the culture that surrounds them. For me the goal is to get us moving in that direction, and if it takes a century or two before we match the levels of other developed countries, I wouldn't be shocked by that. We are essentially trying to change the direction of the Titanic. It's going to take a while. 

 

[KCitons]

Only a 10% reduction would still save 4,000 lives. 

Ideally our goal should be 100%, but that's not anywhere near pragmatic. A more realistic goal would be to reduce our levels of gun deaths to that of other developed countries, but even that may not be pragmatic given how many guns exist in our country, and the culture that surrounds them. For me the goal is to get us moving in that direction, and if it takes a century or two before we match the levels of other developed countries, I wouldn't be shocked by that. We are essentially trying to change the direction of the Titanic. It's going to take a while. 

Murders are dropping. It's the suicide rate the is increasing and contributing to the stagnant or increase in gun deaths. 

Continue to ignore the mental health issue will not achieve desired results. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Only a 10% reduction would still save 4,000 lives. 

Ideally our goal should be 100%, but that's not anywhere near pragmatic. A more realistic goal would be to reduce our levels of gun deaths to that of other developed countries, but even that may not be pragmatic given how many guns exist in our country, and the culture that surrounds them. For me the goal is to get us moving in that direction, and if it takes a century or two before we match the levels of other developed countries, I wouldn't be shocked by that. We are essentially trying to change the direction of the Titanic. It's going to take a while. 

Agree with all that.  Doesn't need to be said, but my post wasn't insinuating that we dont have to address mental health, just pointing out that I believe that addressing the gun side of the equation will help a lot more than some posters seem to believe it will.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

None of those articles above seem to have anything to do with the stat I posted about what % of suicides were by guns overall when looking at suicide rates.  Dont think anybody is arguing against the stat that 2/3rds of gun deaths are suicides either.  

 

[Politician Spock]

Agree with all that.  Doesn't need to be said, but my post wasn't insinuating that we dont have to address mental health, just pointing out that I believe that addressing the gun side of the equation will help a lot more than some posters seem to believe it will.  

Yep, Lots of things can help. Given how bad the problem is, we should be doing everything we can. 

 

[KCitons]

None of those articles above seem to have anything to do with the stat I posted about what % of suicides were by guns overall when looking at suicide rates.  Dont think anybody is arguing against the stat that 2/3rds of gun deaths are suicides either.  

I think you have a hard time understanding simple numbers.

 Your post stated that suicides accounted for 51% of the gun deaths.(which you failed to site a link to)

 My post (which I gave multiple links for) shows that suicides account for 66% of gun deaths. 

Assuming you had a basic education, it 66% higher or lower than 51%? 

Did you also notice the part of the article that stated gun murders (when you remove suicide deaths) actually is decreasing?

If you anti gun guys can point to the 70% of the population that wants gun regulation, I would think you can understand 66%. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

I stated that firearms accounted for 50-51% of all suicides.  

Posting about what % of total gun deaths are suicides is not the same thing.   

I can get links when I get home.  

Love the personal attacks about education levels, btw.  

 

[KCitons]

I stated that firearms accounted for 50-51% of all suicides.  

Posting about what % of total gun deaths are suicides is not the same thing.   

I can get links when I get home.  

Love the personal attacks about education levels, btw.  

So long story short, someone is feeling grumpy because hes not getting enough kudos for changing his stance, not getting enough traction in his threads, and not enough people agree with his takes? 

If you can't take it, don't give it.

Or is this another example of the double standard?

 

[KarmaPolice]

But, but,.... you started it by saying I cant possibly be thinking for myself and just doing what King fish wants!! 

 

[Glass Joe]

If you can't take it, don't give it.

Or is this another example of the double standard?

This is one of those times you need to accept you were wrong. Suck it up.

 

[KCitons]

But, but,.... you started it by saying I cant possibly be thinking for myself and just doing what King fish wants!! 

I didn't tell you to stop?

Maybe you do love the personal attacks. I took it as sarcasm. 

 

[KCitons]

This is one of those times you need to accept you were wrong. Suck it up.

Wrong?

 

[-fish-]

In the last two weeks, Vermont and New Hampshire legislatures have both passed gun control legislation that includes waiting periods to purchase a gun.    New Hampshire's is 7 days, Vermont's is 24 hours.   Both are now sitting in front of Republican governors who haven't stated whether they will sign the bills.

The NRA opposes both, like it does all gun regulation.   Its statement:  "gun owners can never accept a waiting period on a constitutionally guaranteed right."

There's no right to be able to purchase a gun on a whim.   The fact that the NRA opposes even a 24 hour waiting period shows that it has no regard whatsoever for safe gun ownership--just gun manufacturer profits.

 

[Politician Spock]

In the last two weeks, Vermont and New Hampshire legislatures have both passed gun control legislation that includes waiting periods to purchase a gun.    New Hampshire's is 7 days, Vermont's is 24 hours.   Both are now sitting in front of Republican governors who haven't stated whether they will sign the bills.

The NRA opposes both, like it does all gun regulation.   Its statement:  "gun owners can never accept a waiting period on a constitutionally guaranteed right."

There's no right to be able to purchase a gun on a whim.   The fact that the NRA opposes even a 24 hour waiting period shows that it has no regard whatsoever for safe gun ownership--just gun manufacturer profits.

In 24 hours, they might change their mind, and not make the purchase.

Thank god the constitution protects gun sellers. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Need to stop looking crap up on the phone.  Didn't find the exact blurb I saw this morning, but THIS article had the same stat.  

firearm suicides ─ which make up more than half of all suicides in America, or nearly 23,000 in 2016

 

[KCitons]

Need to stop looking crap up on the phone.  Didn't find the exact blurb I saw this morning, but THIS article had the same stat.  

firearm suicides ─ which make up more than half of all suicides in America, or nearly 23,000 in 2016

You're still not getting the point. Maybe reread the posts where I responded to fish, and you responded to me. He was saying that criminal issues are easier. I said, since criminal gun deaths only make up 33% of the total number of deaths. It is going to be difficult to reduce that number as much as it would if we concentrated efforts on mental health. 

I've had this discussion with SP already. I don't see the need to regulate suicide through gun control. People have a right to do as they please with their bodies. I'm concentrating on regulations that proactively prevent one person from taking another persons life. If we have better mental health systems in this country and it benefits those contemplating suicide, then that's great. But if it saves the lives of people that wanted to live all along, that's what I'm concentrating on.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Yep, I read all those posts.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Seems like we do this round and round every few months, and again it feels like the target has shifted in this complicated debate.  

Because of the various "categories" of gun violence the discussion morphs and blends into each other.  Now if we are throwing out statements like people who die by suicide made that choice and we are just going to focus on people harming other people - IMO we really need to reconcile info and stats like the following article has:

Columbia’s Paul Appelbaum and Duke’s Jeffrey Swanson concluded that “only 3%-5% of violent acts are attributable to serious mental illness, and most do not involve guns.”

Michael Stone, a psychiatrist at Columbia who maintains a database of mass shooters, wrote in a 2015 article that only 52 out of the 235 killers in the database, or about 22 percent, were mentally ill.

LINK

I sure a certain poster in here will be all about the last part in the article talking about drug and alcohol abuse.  IMO this just points to us needing to incorporate a lot things to tackle this problem - looking at mental illness,  abuse of substances, tendencies of anger, access to guns, types of guns we have, on and on.  I don't think its effective for the whole of "gun violence" to say it's just X and Y causing this because in encapsulates so many different types of crimes and violence.  

 

[KCitons]

Seems like we do this round and round every few months, and again it feels like the target has shifted in this complicated debate.  

Because of the various "categories" of gun violence the discussion morphs and blends into each other.  Now if we are throwing out statements like people who die by suicide made that choice and we are just going to focus on people harming other people - IMO we really need to reconcile info and stats like the following article has:

Columbia’s Paul Appelbaum and Duke’s Jeffrey Swanson concluded that “only 3%-5% of violent acts are attributable to serious mental illness, and most do not involve guns.”

Michael Stone, a psychiatrist at Columbia who maintains a database of mass shooters, wrote in a 2015 article that only 52 out of the 235 killers in the database, or about 22 percent, were mentally ill.

LINK

I sure a certain poster in here will be all about the last part in the article talking about drug and alcohol abuse.  IMO this just points to us needing to incorporate a lot things to tackle this problem - looking at mental illness,  abuse of substances, tendencies of anger, access to guns, types of guns we have, on and on.  I don't think its effective for the whole of "gun violence" to say it's just X and Y causing this because in encapsulates so many different types of crimes and violence.  

Look at those that cause the most deaths and the factors that contribute to them.

Suicide = Mental Illness/Substance Abuse

Gang Shootings = Drug Problem/Lack of Opportunity/Breakdown of Family Structure

Mass Shootings = Mental Illness (I say this because it's a result of people not being able to cope with the problems. Whether that is bullying, being fired, or whatever. It starts will the mental make up)

Domestic Violence = Substance Abuse

Other = Anger/Jealousy/Greed

Investing time and money on areas other than mental health is going to yield minor results. As one of the articles pointed out, murder rates have been going down. But, suicide rates are going up. If guns were the problem, wouldn't we see both of them going up? We are seeing an increase in mass shootings. So the two areas that are rooted in mental health issues (suicide and mass shootings) are going up, while other murders are going down. It makes sense to address the cause of those two areas.

 

[KarmaPolice]

"Investing time and money on areas other than mental health is going to yield minor results"

IMO in order for somebody to say that, they have to reconcile the above stats that a small fraction of the violent acts involve people with a severe mental illness.   Posting suicide doesn't do anything if you say that you are focusing on people harming other people, so take that out if you aren't going to focus on that.    In your post, the categories that make up the majority of the deaths -gangs/domestic violence you don't list mental illness, so I am not sure why you keep claiming that focusing on mental health is going to yield the best results and make the most change.  None of this factors in accidental death either.  

 

[KCitons]

It cracks me up that you quote me without quoting me.   (and you aren't bowing down to King Fish)

"Investing time and money on areas other than mental health is going to yield minor results"

 

[KarmaPolice]

NOW I am doing it on purpose b/c I think it's humorous, before it was because I was on my phone.  

 

[KCitons]

IMO in order for somebody to say that, they have to reconcile the above stats that a small fraction of the violent acts involve people with a severe mental illness.   Posting suicide doesn't do anything if you say that you are focusing on people harming other people, so take that out if you aren't going to focus on that.    In your post, the categories that make up the majority of the deaths -gangs/domestic violence you don't list mental illness, so I am not sure why you keep claiming that focusing on mental health is going to yield the best results and make the most change.  None of this factors in accidental death either.  

You need to define what it is you're trying to do? I had this same conversation with SP. His answer, was to reduce the number of gun deaths in this country to be more in line with other developed countries. This is why I looked at what makes up the largest percent of gun deaths (suicide). And why I proposed a mental wellness tax on guns and alcohol. Even though I don't believe that we should have a say in whether or not someone wants to commit suicide. Pro Choice. I think gun suicide deaths should be removed from the stats. 

What we are left with is about 12,000 deaths each year. Those break down into three other categories. Gang violence, mass shootings, other. Each of those will have a different solution to reduce the numbers. I addressed these above. But, the fundamental problem is not a gun. It's mental health, or socioeconomic issues, or substance abuse. 

When you remove suicides from gun deaths, it shows the murder rate went down. How do you explain this happening? Many people's premise is that more guns equal more deaths. If this was the case, then murder rate would have gone up. The only reason gun death rate is going up is because of suicide. Why would you concentrate on the part that is already going down and ignore the part that's going up? Unless it's only about gun control and not about achieving results. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

What we are left with is about 12,000 deaths each year. Those break down into three other categories. Gang violence, mass shootings, other. Each of those will have a different solution to reduce the numbers. I addressed these above. But, the fundamental problem is not a gun. It's mental health, or socioeconomic issues, or substance abuse. 

Now, we might not agree with that first part, but at least we got somewhere with the rest.   OR is huge part of the problem.  IMO we can't say that mental health will take care of a majority of the problem, and we can't say that a guns and access to them is also not a fundamental part of the problem.   I said similar about 6-8months ago.  I just take issue with you saying that mental illness is the core solution (especially when you take out the suicide rate like you did when you said that you want to focus on things that proactively stop people from harming other people).  IF it's only accounting for 5% of the violence against others, how is that a core solution?  

 

[KCitons]

Now, we might not agree with that first part, but at least we got somewhere with the rest.   OR is huge part of the problem.  IMO we can't say that mental health will take care of a majority of the problem, and we can't say that a guns and access to them is also not a fundamental part of the problem.   I said similar about 6-8months ago.  I just take issue with you saying that mental illness is the core solution (especially when you take out the suicide rate like you did when you said that you want to focus on things that proactively stop people from harming other people).  IF it's only accounting for 5% of the violence against others, how is that a core solution?  

This is why I use alcohol/DUIs/automobiles as the comparison. If you recognize that 66% of gun deaths are suicide, and that we either need to address the mental health issue that causes it or accept it as being a persons choice, you are left with a much smaller number of gun deaths that crimes against another person. I see this as an acceptable level. The same way we see 10k deaths per year from duis as being acceptable. There are lots of things that we have that cause deaths. Those are just a part of having that item in society. It may be alcohol, cars, drugs, or purple dildos. You see the solution being gun regulations. I see the problem as just an acceptable part of how the world works. How many people die from crane collapse. It's unfortunate, but we aren't going to ban cranes. It's just an unfortunate byproduct that we accept. 

This is why I propose bans and look for other ways to impact the overall numbers. Background checks to prevent people that shouldn't have guns from getting them. Mental health programs to help those that passed background checks from harming other people (and possibly themselves). People here have admitted that we won't have guarantees or even the hope of getting gun deaths to zero. What we are left with is a each person deciding what number of deaths is acceptable. For me, I'm okay with the current number. The murder rate is decreasing. Others are not okay with the current numbers. I've asked over and over why we think 12k deaths from guns is worst that 10k deaths from duis? The canned response is let's do more to reduce the former. But, it's not happening. There is no 300 page thread, no main stream media coverage, no political discussion. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

I would imagine (I guess "hope" is the better term) that you in in the minority that think those leftover 10K deaths are an acceptable part of a modern society.  

 

[KCitons]

I would imagine (I guess "hope" is the better term) that you in in the minority that think those leftover 10K deaths are an acceptable part of a modern society.  

It's part of a developed nation. We accept auto related deaths as part of the benefit of having cars. We accept airplane crashes as part of having the convenience of flying. I don't see guns as being any different. It doesn't eliminate the fact that they are tragedies. But, we don't suddenly call for a ban of airplanes after a crash. How would people get from city to city?

What it comes down to is whether or not a person thinks that firearms are as beneficial to their society as cars or planes. There are probably people out their that own a dozen guns and use them on a regular basis. But have never flown on an airplane. Which do you think is more important to their society?

 

[KarmaPolice]

It's part of a developed nation.

If this was true, we wouldn't be alone in the world with these stats.  

As far as rest, I dont disagree.  It's odd that you are in here arguing about it so much if you think it's an acceptable part of life.  

 

[KCitons]

If this was true, we wouldn't be alone in the world with these stats.  

As far as rest, I dont disagree.  It's odd that you are in here arguing about it so much if you think it's an acceptable part of life.  

Then why are people trying to get into this country. It's the freedoms that set this country apart from the others. Some things we lead in are good, some are bad. 

I'm arguing to make sure the anti gun side makes informed decisions and not decisions based on emotion or misrepresented stats.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Freedoms, sure.  Not sure how many things we lead the world in that would be good things though, but that's not for this thread.  

 

[KCitons]

Freedoms, sure.  Not sure how many things we lead the world in that would be good things though, but that's not for this thread.  

Well based on the opinions of some of the people here, I'm not sure why immigrants would want to come to this country. Sounds like they would be a victim of gun violence as soon as they cross the border. 

 

[-fish-]

 @BuzzFeedNews Right-to-carry handgun laws trigger a 13% to 15% increase in violent crime a decade after the typical state adopts them, suggests a new statistical analysis of 33 US states

John Lott was wrong and his study was bogus.  What a shocker.   

 

[KarmaPolice]

Well based on the opinions of some of the people here, I'm not sure why immigrants would want to come to this country. Sounds like they would be a victim of gun violence as soon as they cross the border. 

To be fair, how many choices to they have?  Not sure if floating across the Atlantic to European countries is a feasible option.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

The study cataloged recent road rage disputes, bar fights, police shootings of armed civilians, and everyday vitriol that turned into shootings in right-to-carry states, to suggest mechanisms that explain how the increases might happen.

Imagine that - tempers flair and out come the guns.  

 

[Politician Spock]

 @BuzzFeedNews Right-to-carry handgun laws trigger a 13% to 15% increase in violent crime a decade after the typical state adopts them, suggests a new statistical analysis of 33 US states

This needs to be highlighted;

However, Duke University criminologist Philip Cook told BuzzFeed News that a new study with better methods and data toppling an old, incorrect theory is just an example of how science works.

“The scientific process does not always get the right answer the first time, but if it’s working well, then important findings are reviewed and tested and the truth becomes clearer,” said Cook, in the case of the newer, better study of 33 states. Regardless, he added, advocates for the “more guns, less crime” idea will likely continue beating the drum for right-to-carry laws.

 

[KCitons]

To be fair, how many choices to they have?  Not sure if floating across the Atlantic to European countries is a feasible option.  

Then you're saying things aren't that bad here?

 

[KCitons]

The study cataloged recent road rage disputes, bar fights, police shootings of armed civilians, and everyday vitriol that turned into shootings in right-to-carry states, to suggest mechanisms that explain how the increases might happen.

Imagine that - tempers flair and out come the guns.  

I said this 200 pages ago. It's the reason I am not a fan of conceal carry for people without a good reason. And the reason I don't conceal carry myself. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Then you're saying things aren't that bad here?

I dont think I said things were bad here.  

 

[-fish-]

To be fair, how many choices to they have?  Not sure if floating across the Atlantic to European countries is a feasible option.  

Weak gun laws in the United States, and especially in border states like Arizona, make it easier for weapons to be smuggled into neighboring countries where they're used to commit crimes, according to a new report from a progressive think tank.

The report, published this month by the Center for American Progress, analyzed Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms data on weapons recovered at crime scenes in neighboring countries that were traced back to the United States. 

Eugenio Weigend, who co-authored the report, said it was intended to counter a "narrative of President Trump, that we need to secure the border because crime is coming from Mexico, from the Central American countries."

That narrative ignores "the fact that the United States is fueling the violence abroad with illegal gun trafficking," he said.

According to the analysis, the U.S. was the primary source of weapons used to commit crimes in Canada and Mexico, and U.S. weapons make up a significant portion of those used in crimesin all seven Central American nations. 

The problem is most pronounced in Mexico, the report states. Nearly 70 percent of the 106,000 recovered weapons submitted to ATF from 2011 to 2016 were traced to the United States.

The report calls on federal and state governments to implement universal background checks, strengthen federal laws against gun trafficking, and improve reporting on gun sales and exports. Weigend said such measures are widely supported by voters.

Huh.   If we tightened our gun laws, other countries would be safer too.  While some of the above is opinion, the 70% figure is documented fact.

 

[Politician Spock]

Huh.   If we tightened our gun laws, other countries would be safer too.  While some of the above is opinion, the 70% figure is documented fact.

If other countries have more guns because of the United States, then those countries are safer, because as we all know, more guns makes a country safer. 

So I think we should tax those other countries for the benefit they are receiving from us.

[/sarcasm]

 

[KCitons]

I dont think I said things were bad here.  

I didn't say you did.

 

[KCitons]

If other countries have more guns because of the United States, then those countries are safer, because as we all know, more guns makes a country safer. 

So I think we should tax those other countries for the benefit they are receiving from us.

[/sarcasm]

Trafficking guns to other countries should be left to the CIA.

 

[timschochet]

I have found a good new organization (new to me anyhow) to support on this issue: Moms Demand Action 

https://momsdemandaction.org/

I saw the founder, Shannon Watts, on CNN. She is very impressive. I think she is going to defeat the NRA. 

 

[-fish-]

I have found a good new organization (new to me anyhow) to support on this issue: Moms Demand Action 

https://momsdemandaction.org/

I saw the founder, Shannon Watts, on CNN. She is very impressive. I think she is going to defeat the NRA. 

She's a paid mouthpiece who will take the position of whoever is paying her.  Former director of PR for Monsanto?   No thanks.   I'd rather have someone legit speak on behalf of people that actually believe in the issues.   She actually feeds people like SC, since she plays fast and loose with statistics.   

 

[Mister CIA]

Active Shooter in Virgina?

https://twitter.com/i/events/1134559432946245633?s=13

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Active Shooter in Virgina?

https://twitter.com/i/events/1134559432946245633?s=13

11 dead including the shooter

 

[joffer]

proughts and thayers