USA Shootings (3 Viewers)

[Stealthycat]

Personally, you can have 500 guns if you want them.  I don't care as long as you're responsible.

how do you determine who is and isn't responsible ?

 

[Henry Ford]

that's your opinion that we are not more divided

I think we are as a nation - blacks and whites and civilians and police, Christians and muslims, men and women, rich and poor, straight and gay, the list goes on and on

the last decade has especially seen rifts and cracks across society as we as a country drift farther apart

You said "on race."  One of those sets of categories is race.  

 

[Stealthycat]

You said "on race."  One of those sets of categories is race.  

you are sharp as a tack this morning Henry Ford, dang

 

[Henry Ford]

you are sharp as a tack this morning Henry Ford, dang

You're doing your normal "make a statement you can't back up then change the conversation when it's explained." 

 

[Henry Ford]

Christians and Muslims are quite possibly more divided than at any time in my life.  Rich and poor is a reasonable conversation.  Civilians and police, too.

Women and men are not.  Straight and gay are not.  Black and white are not.

 

[The Commish]

nobody uses their guns for home self defense ?

In the world I live in?  No....they don't live with that sort of fear.

 

[The Commish]

how do you determine who is and isn't responsible ?

This has been covered.

 

[The Commish]

that's your opinion - you don't know who harbors what racist sentiments and as equally as a white man can judge a black man, a black man can judge a white man too

judged skin color

if you see Obama as black I think that's racist. Why? He's not black, or white, he's both and to ignore his maternal side is to look only at his skin color and judge him. I think that's a massive problem to be honest.

I don't care who a remote group of racists relate to or not. They're fringe, nobody gives them a time of day unless its CNN and they'll drift into nothing with time. They only have courage when what they stand for is given power by those of us who allow it.

You can believe what you want on Trump, nothing he will do can change set minds I guess and that's just the way it is. I doubt in these 4 or 8 years the country will split more than it did in the 8 of Obama though.

ummmm....our President panders to them almost daily with his rhetoric.  And when they see the President pandering to them, it gives them the courage you talk about.  That's exactly what I said before.  The quantity of racists haven't changed all that much.  They've simply been provided a much larger stage as their views have been accepted as OK.  I didn't say Trump changed anyone's mind.  There is no doubt he has provided a level of acceptability that no other President in my lifetime has provided and it's allowed for an increase in courage to push that terrible message out there....it's not just CNN.  CNN and the others are covering the events set in motion by these people.

 

[Stealthycat]

You're doing your normal "make a statement you can't back up then change the conversation when it's explained." 

I changed nothing

I did add a few of the many other way's we're diving, not just racially .... maybe you think they're exclusive of each other? I don't.

 

[Stealthycat]

In the world I live in?  No....they don't live with that sort of fear.

so because you live in a safe place, other people who don't shouldn't have the right to self defense or women shouldn't be able to defend themselves from rapists or store owners from robbery etc?

This has been covered.

has it been covered and laid out and we all can easily see the path to identifying criminals and focusing on them and not on a weapon they might choose to use?

 

[Stealthycat]

ummmm....our President panders to them almost daily with his rhetoric.  And when they see the President pandering to them, it gives them the courage you talk about.  That's exactly what I said before.  The quantity of racists haven't changed all that much.  They've simply been provided a much larger stage as their views have been accepted as OK.  I didn't say Trump changed anyone's mind.  There is no doubt he has provided a level of acceptability that no other President in my lifetime has provided and it's allowed for an increase in courage to push that terrible message out there....it's not just CNN.  CNN and the others are covering the events set in motion by these people.

people who hate Trump see that, people who voted Hillary see that

people who do not hate Trump and who voted Trump do not see that

I see Obama as a catalyst for divisions in the United States greater than I've ever seen. BLM and ANTIFA all flourished under him.

 

[The Commish]

In the world I live in?  No....they don't live with that sort of fear.

so because you live in a safe place, other people who don't shouldn't have the right to self defense or women shouldn't be able to defend themselves from rapists or store owners from robbery etc?

Who said that?

has it been covered and laid out and we all can easily see the path to identifying criminals and focusing on them and not on a weapon they might choose to use?

I don't know what you're asking.  The other question has been answered specifically by me and several others in our proposals on these boards.  Feel free to go back and read them.

 

[The Commish]

people who hate Trump see that, people who voted Hillary see that

people who do not hate Trump and who voted Trump do not see that

I see Obama as a catalyst for divisions in the United States greater than I've ever seen. BLM and ANTIFA all flourished under him.

Don't see what?  You've said you see an increase in tensions.  You are blaming one guy over another.  All I have said to you is that the perception of an increase is because you haven't seen it before (you have to answer as to why that is...I have no idea).  I've seen it and dealt with this racism stuff my whole life.  For a lot of people it's been ignored because it was avoidable.  With the election of Obama and the Trump rhetoric, it's become unavoidable and I am glad that what a lot of us saw just lurking under the surface has been thrown directly into the faces of those who previously ignored it because they could.

Curious what you mean by "under him"?  For 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the population reading this, the implication is that he held some position in the organizations where he provided guidance and direction.  To my knowledge he didn't hold positions in either of these groups, so what do you mean?  Are you simply assigning blame because he was President at the time?  If so, how do you reconcile the hypocrisy of that position with what you said in the post I quoted....why aren't you assigning blame for continued increase in division directly to Trump since that increase is happening under his watch?

 

[Dickies]

actually people who don't shoot other people have 0% gun death rates too

I'd argue people who commit justified gun shootings have a 0% rate too - they're saving their own lives or others by using their guns ........... where does that factor into the benefits of having guns in society?

Not at all

 

[Dickies]

you think people wasn't aware of racism in 2006 ? seriously? we are more divided over race than in my lifetime ........ and its escalated in the last 10 years so if the argument is Obama cause great division and eroded any racial progression since the 70's I'd agree with that for sure

long term we don't know - but avoid looking at short term and what damage the Democrats did in the past 10 years huh ?

How much of the blame over racial division do you place on the right?  First black man wins the presidency and is immediately questioned over whether he was born here or in Kenya.  Not by fringe members of the party, but a VP candidate, the current Republican President, and other prominent Republican figures.

Your post is like Riversco, "Now you've upset whites in this country and disrupted the status quo of all white male Presidents.  You should have given into them and elected another white man, but now there is nowhere else to go but civil war"

 

[Dickies]

But I doubt you apply the same "heavily regulate it" to those things. I don't remember you saying, but I'm betting you don't own guns? Most people wanting to heavily regulate guns are not gun owners. Therefore its super easy for them to give up gun - they don't have them, right?

So its not about heavily regulating things that cause human death - its about heavily regulating things that doesn't impact you directly. 

For one, all those things listed are regulated.  I don't want to apply the same regulations to all of them.  That would be incredibly silly because they are all different. 

You are correct that I do not own guns, and have no desire to have my children around guns.  The reason I want them heavily regulated is so that they never do impact me directly.

 

[Dickies]

But I doubt you apply the same "heavily regulate it" to those things. I don't remember you saying, but I'm betting you don't own guns? Most people wanting to heavily regulate guns are not gun owners. Therefore its super easy for them to give up gun - they don't have them, right?

So its not about heavily regulating things that cause human death - its about heavily regulating things that doesn't impact you directly. 

For one, all those things listed are regulated.  I don't want to apply the same regulations to all of them.  That would be incredibly silly because they are all different. 

You are correct that I do not own guns, and have no desire to have my children around guns.  The reason I want them heavily regulated is so that they never do impact me directly.

 

[Stealthycat]

Who said that?

I did, it was a question

Many people feel they live in a safe place where door locks and security systems are enough .... crime stats don't lie, a lot of people are victims every year.

So my point is, don't forget the value of self defense for people. Its very real even though it might not be for you individually.

 

[Stealthycat]

Don't see what?  You've said you see an increase in tensions.  You are blaming one guy over another.  All I have said to you is that the perception of an increase is because you haven't seen it before (you have to answer as to why that is...I have no idea).  I've seen it and dealt with this racism stuff my whole life.  For a lot of people it's been ignored because it was avoidable.  With the election of Obama and the Trump rhetoric, it's become unavoidable and I am glad that what a lot of us saw just lurking under the surface has been thrown directly into the faces of those who previously ignored it because they could.

Curious what you mean by "under him"?  For 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the population reading this, the implication is that he held some position in the organizations where he provided guidance and direction.  To my knowledge he didn't hold positions in either of these groups, so what do you mean?  Are you simply assigning blame because he was President at the time?  If so, how do you reconcile the hypocrisy of that position with what you said in the post I quoted....why aren't you assigning blame for continued increase in division directly to Trump since that increase is happening under his watch?

I'll blame Trump when the numbers are what they are just like I'll put the numbers on Obama. I'm fair when it comes to that, are you ?

 

[Stealthycat]

Not at all

why don't we also see all the benefits of guns ? why isn't that important ?

How much of the blame over racial division do you place on the right?  First black man wins the presidency and is immediately questioned over whether he was born here or in Kenya.  Not by fringe members of the party, but a VP candidate, the current Republican President, and other prominent Republican figures.

Your post is like Riversco, "Now you've upset whites in this country and disrupted the status quo of all white male Presidents.  You should have given into them and elected another white man, but now there is nowhere else to go but civil war"

there is blame everywhere Dickies .......... but right now, who's continuing the hate and division? We gotta stop at some point and someone has to change this path. Continuing hate and division and separations has to be led by someone. 

Obama was as much white as he was black - seeing him as a black man is racist because you only view his skin color.

white, white, white ..... quit seeing white. See everyone for who they are, don't look at skin color. Democrats had all whites in the 2016 DNC primaries ..... does that mean they were racist ?

serious question

 

[Stealthycat]

For one, all those things listed are regulated.  I don't want to apply the same regulations to all of them.  That would be incredibly silly because they are all different. 

You are correct that I do not own guns, and have no desire to have my children around guns.  The reason I want them heavily regulated is so that they never do impact me directly.

guns ARE regulated Dickies - as much or more so than many other things

so you see what I mean, its easy for you to demand heavy gun control, you don't have to give up anything but demanding me too is easy enough isn't it ?

 

[Hawkeye21]

why don't we also see all the benefits of guns ? why isn't that important ?

Who here is negating the benefits of guns?  If we didn't think they had any benefits then we would be asking for a complete ban on all guns.  I have only heard one person say they'd be ok with that on this board.  No one else here wants that and the majority of Americans do not want that.

 

[Dickies]

why don't we also see all the benefits of guns ? why isn't that important ?

there is blame everywhere Dickies .......... but right now, who's continuing the hate and division? We gotta stop at some point and someone has to change this path. Continuing hate and division and separations has to be led by someone. 

Obama was as much white as he was black - seeing him as a black man is racist because you only view his skin color.

white, white, white ..... quit seeing white. See everyone for who they are, don't look at skin color. Democrats had all whites in the 2016 DNC primaries ..... does that mean they were racist ?

serious question

It's clear that Trump is not only continuing, but is one of the root causes of racial tensions. 

As for Obama, he has said himself that he identifies as black, so why would you consider me racist for it? 

 

[Dickies]

guns ARE regulated Dickies - as much or more so than many other things

so you see what I mean, its easy for you to demand heavy gun control, you don't have to give up anything but demanding me too is easy enough isn't it ?

I understand there are regulations on guns, but in my opinion we need more.  

Where have I demanded you give up your guns?  Gun control does not mean gun seizure.  The Parkland survivors gave up way more than your stupid guns and that's not something I'm okay giving up.

 

[-fish-]

I did, it was a question

Many people feel they live in a safe place where door locks and security systems are enough .... crime stats don't lie, a lot of people are victims every year.

So my point is, don't forget the value of self defense for people. Its very real even though it might not be for you individually.

This gets thrown around a lot.   Are there any reliable statistics on the number of crimes prevented through "self-defense?"  There are significant statistics showing that having a gun in your home greatly increases the chance of injury or death to yourself or a family member.  Can you actually state with certainty that the benefit outweighs the risk?   I don't think you can, or we'd have seen the numbers from the NRA.

 

[The Commish]

Who said that?

I did, it was a question

Many people feel they live in a safe place where door locks and security systems are enough .... crime stats don't lie, a lot of people are victims every year.

So my point is, don't forget the value of self defense for people. Its very real even though it might not be for you individually.

who said otherwise?  I simply said this wasn't a reason popular with any gun owners that I know.  It's not a factor to them at all.  It doesn't mean that it isn't a factor for anyone.  Reading comprehension would be appreciated if you insist on engaging me.

 

[The Commish]

I'll blame Trump when the numbers are what they are just like I'll put the numbers on Obama. I'm fair when it comes to that, are you ?

I have no idea how to answer the bold because I have no idea what you are saying prior to that.

 

[Dickies]

This gets thrown around a lot.   Are there any reliable statistics on the number of crimes prevented through "self-defense?"  There are significant statistics showing that having a gun in your home greatly increases the chance of injury or death to yourself or a family member.  Can you actually state with certainty that the benefit outweighs the risk?   I don't think you can, or we'd have seen the numbers from the NRA.

I haven't looked at the numbers recently, but I did a research paper on this in a college course.  The data back then suggested that you are 90% more likely to use your gun on yourself or family member, or have a family member use your gun on you or another family member than you are to use it to protect you or your family from an intruder.  

For me that's all I need to see to not want guns in my household.  If someone breaks into my house they can take whatever they want and I'll call the police.  There is no possession in my house that is more cherished than my family.  I sleep better at night knowing my security cameras aren't going to accidentally discharge.

 

[Hawkeye21]

I haven't looked at the numbers recently, but I did a research paper on this in a college course.  The data back then suggested that you are 90% more likely to use your gun on yourself or family member, or have a family member use your gun on you or another family member than you are to use it to protect you or your family from an intruder.  

For me that's all I need to see to not want guns in my household.  If someone breaks into my house they can take whatever they want and I'll call the police.  There is no possession in my house that is more cherished than my family.  I sleep better at night knowing my security cameras aren't going to accidentally discharge.

But Stealthy refuses to be a victim. 

 

[Dickies]

But Stealthy refuses to be a victim. 

The best way to stop accidental home shootings is more guns in the household/

 

[The Commish]

But Stealthy refuses to be a victim. 

The best way to stop accidental home shootings is more guns in the household/

Or a moat....we went with a moat.

 

[snitwitch]

not sure if it's been covered here but it looks like the vegas shooter was a deplorable gun clinger / conspiracy nut http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/las-vegas-shooter-claimed-americans-needed-wake-up-call-article-1.3994558?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true

shocking, i know

 

[Dickies]

not sure if it's been covered here but it looks like the vegas shooter was a deplorable gun clinger / conspiracy nut http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/las-vegas-shooter-claimed-americans-needed-wake-up-call-article-1.3994558?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true

shocking, i know

“What would be the best way to illustrate that the government shouldn’t take people’s guns?  Oooh I’ve got the perfect idea. I’ll indiscriminately shoot at hundreds of people so that everyone can see the huge value guns add to society”

 

[KCitons]

I do have a couple friends who have shotguns for shooting skeet.  That's my norm....what I know people to have based on my anecdotal life experiences.  Personally, you can have 500 guns if you want them.  I don't care as long as you're responsible.  There are some that will attempt to make the argument that quantity of guns factors into your responsibility level.  I don't think the quantity of weapons owned speaks to how responsible one is.  If you own 50 guns that doesn't make you any more/less responsible than if you own 1.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but you put a number to your norm. Then follow up with the bolded? I own half a dozen rifles, 4 shotguns and two pistols. Why do I own so many? I upgraded over my lifetime and never sold them. The intent is to pass them down to my sons.

As I've mention in past threads, I go above and beyond to keep being responsible. The guns themselves are kept in a gun safe in a locked closet. (it's actually a large closet under our stairs) Depending on the gun, I remove either the bolt or the trigger mechanism and keep those (along with any empty magazines)in a separate safe in a different part of the house. The only exception is my Glock which I keep in a third safe. 

I can understand why people want to keep guns out of irresponsible peoples hands. But, this is why I get frustrated when there is talk of more regulation, insurance, or registry. Some of us do more than is required and are not given any credit for that. 

 

[The Commish]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but you put a number to your norm

I am thinking I didn't say my comment correctly with respect to norms.  What I am trying to convey is the norm I know based on the people I know.  Not what I think the norm should be.  So of the people I know they have a few hunting rifles for hunting and some pistols for shooting for fun and some even shoot in competitions.  Hopefully that's clearer.....I didn't do a good job on that comment based on some of the responses I've received today.  That's my bad.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

not sure if it's been covered here but it looks like the vegas shooter was a deplorable gun clinger / conspiracy nut http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/las-vegas-shooter-claimed-americans-needed-wake-up-call-article-1.3994558?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true

shocking, i know

Good thing we don’t have anybody like that around here.

 

[msommer]

I am thinking I didn't say my comment correctly with respect to norms.  What I am trying to convey is the norm I know based on the people I know.  Not what I think the norm should be.  So of the people I know they have a few hunting rifles for hunting and some pistols for shooting for fun and some even shoot in competitions.  Hopefully that's clearer.....I didn't do a good job on that comment based on some of the responses I've received today.  That's my bad.

Most of us understood it the first time. Perhaps others willfully did not.

 

[KCitons]

Most of us understood it the first time. Perhaps others willfully did not.

Perhaps you are a troll. 

 

[whoknew]

Santa Fe High School outside Houston - 

Verified account 5m5 minutes ago

More

Student tells reporters a gunman armed with a shotgun entered an art class and there is at least one female victim. Authorities describe it as "an active shooter" situation.

 

[sho nuff]

Santa Fe High School outside Houston - 

Verified account 5m5 minutes ago

More

Student tells reporters a gunman armed with a shotgun entered an art class and there is at least one female victim. Authorities describe it as "an active shooter" situation.

https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/watch-live-active-shooter-reported-at-santa-fe-high-school/285-553331098

:(

 

[Stealthycat]

Who here is negating the benefits of guns?  If we didn't think they had any benefits then we would be asking for a complete ban on all guns.  I have only heard one person say they'd be ok with that on this board.  No one else here wants that and the majority of Americans do not want that.

I am about the only person who has mentioned the benefits of guns Hawkeye21. Everyone else focusing on how an exceptionally few people take them and use them wrong.

I keep coming back to the root difference here - ya'll seem to think banning a type or look of a weapon will stop shooters.

I believe they'll just use another weapon, and that stopping the shooter vs the type of weapon they choose is the solution.

You can all semi-auto rifles and these people will use semi-auto handguns. Would you then call for a ban on those? Ban those and they'll use semi-auto shotguns. Then call for a ban on those too right ?

Where does it end? ban, ban, ban, and you've never addressed the core problem at all - the people doing these crimes. But you HAVE impacted millions of law abiding gun owners who've done nothing wrong

 

[Stealthycat]

It's clear that Trump is not only continuing, but is one of the root causes of racial tensions. 

As for Obama, he has said himself that he identifies as black, so why would you consider me racist for it?

looking at someone and judging them by their skin colors ... they see dark skin, they judge on that color. People judge on color of white and brown too ... these is racist views in doing that because you're not looking at the person, only the skin color

Obama can self identify as a martian with green skin .... doesn't change the fact he's 1/2 white raised by white grandparents.

 

[Stealthycat]

I understand there are regulations on guns, but in my opinion we need more.  

Where have I demanded you give up your guns?  Gun control does not mean gun seizure.  The Parkland survivors gave up way more than your stupid guns and that's not something I'm okay giving up.

I have an AR15, 30 round clips, .223/556 nato

You ok with me and 25 million American's owning them?  Gun control right now is banning AR15 frame guns, semi-auto guns with clips, bump stocks, pistol grips etc. What the anti-gun let says and what they pass, two very different things.

Parkland students don't even want to give up their backpacks ....... but they'd demand me giving up 1/2 the guns I own because they fall into a category ? again, very easy to demand everyone else give up something when you don't have to give up anything yourself isn't it ?

what happened there was a massive failure by the county officials, school and FBI. Nikolas Cruz shouldn't ever had the ability to be where he was and when he stepped onto that campus with a gun, security should have engaged as a last resort and shot him dead. All the laws broken, all the people who failed - those were all safegaurds to when some people crack and want to hurt others. The core problem was Cruz - and he was known, identified and nothing was done.

 

[whoknew]

https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/watch-live-active-shooter-reported-at-santa-fe-high-school/285-553331098

:(

Barely a blip on the radar.

 

[Stealthycat]

This gets thrown around a lot.   Are there any reliable statistics on the number of crimes prevented through "self-defense?"  There are significant statistics showing that having a gun in your home greatly increases the chance of injury or death to yourself or a family member.  Can you actually state with certainty that the benefit outweighs the risk?   I don't think you can, or we'd have seen the numbers from the NRA.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/03/20/any-study-of-gun-violence-should-include-how-guns-save-lives/#5921533e5edc

that's just a quick google hit
 

The numbers of defensive gun uses (DGUs) each year is controversial. But one study ordered by the CDC and conducted by The National Academies’ Institute of Medicine and National Research Council reported that, “Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence”:

Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.

Another study estimates there are 1,029,615 DGUs per year “for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere” excluding “military service, police work, or work as a security guard,” (within the range of the National Academies’ paper), yielding an estimate of 162,000 cases per year where someone “almost certainly would have been killed” if they “had not used a gun for protection.”

(In comparison, there were 11,208 homicide deaths by firearm in the US in 2012. There were a total of 33,636 deaths due to “injury by firearms,” of which the majority were suicides, 21,175.)

 

[Stealthycat]

Barely a blip on the radar.

CNN has it front page

 

[whoknew]

CNN has it front page

I meant here. We just kind of move on with our lives. Eh - another day in America. #thisisamerica

 

[Stealthycat]

I simply said this wasn't a reason popular with any gun owners that I know.  It's not a factor to them at all.  It doesn't mean that it isn't a factor for anyone.  Reading comprehension would be appreciated if you insist on engaging me.

I don't know a single gun owner who doesn't have some value to their guns tied with self defense in the home. Maybe some people do keep them all locked in a safe at night, it'd be like having the door locks on your home sitting on the kitchen table .... you've got them, but never have them available

 

[whoknew]

BREAKING UPDATE: Multiple students killed in shooting at Santa Fe High School in Texas, federal official says

 

[Stealthycat]

I meant here. We just kind of move on with our lives. Eh - another day in America. #thisisamerica

just logging in this morning

I wonder what would happen if media quit glorifying it though? If Hollywood took the gun violence away from movies, shootings quit being plastered on the news .......... would that impact people doing these things?

Attention and etching their names in some way to be remembered is a motivating factor no ?