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USExit (1 Viewer)

https://people.com/human-interest/idaho-official-leaves-meeting-in-tears-protesters-outside-home-sons/

More violence 

Surrounded her house while her 8 and 12 year old were home alone with their grandmother 

Does anyone expect a Trump press conference to tell his supporters that this is unacceptable?  Maybe a tweet?  Of course not. 

These people aren't going to just disappear after the inauguration. They've been put in motion by someone reckless.

Tell me how this ends without violence. 

 
Seems appropriate in this thread.

'Texit' test: Texas lawmaker floats referendum to secede from U.S.

“The federal government is out of control and does not represent the values of Texans. That is why I am committing to file legislation this session that will allow a referendum to give Texans a vote for the State of Texas to reassert its status as an independent nation,” Rep. Kyle Biedermann, R-Fredricksburg, said in a statement.

 
The fact that these discussions are even talked about in theory today is so far beyond anything in our lifetime.  I think it truly goes back to we are so polarized we can't even agree on what America was in the past, much less what we envision for America in the future and the America we want to live in.  It just feels to me like that's a shift from where it used to be we all had one direction and one goal for prosperity and we just disagreed on the best way to get there.  
I mean when you have 106 Republican Representatives file a amicus brief to void the election in 4 states a with 16 states, I’m not sure where you go from that?  

 
I don't think this is a "love it or leave it" argument. I think a number of states are making it clear that they are not OK with how other states in the union conduct their business to the point that they are filing suits for how they decided to carry out their elections to the USSC and trying to get the other states'  election results tossed out. That is a pretty profound attack on states' rights and unprecedented in our nation. I have no strong opinion on this matter and don't necessarily think any state should be forced to leave. But if half of states don't agree with the way the other half of the states are conducting their elections at the federal level and are willing to try to overturn elections in other states, maybe it is time for a serious conversation to happen about whether or not this can work going forward. I don't think that secession would result in war. Why? If the non-seceding states didn't really care, it seems we could pass a constitutional amendment to allow it.  If we are now having states suing other states over their election laws because the POTUS they preferred lost then we are sort of through the looking glass here and the best remedy may actually be a divorce. 

 
None are seeking secession I'm aware of.

I'm also not super big on this "Love It Or You Can Leave" position. 
Agreed.  While a bit different obviously, this reminds me of the "I will move to Canada if Trump wins" nonsense in 2016.  Let the crybabies get it out of their system and then we move on.  It sucks that the state I live in, Missouri, is one of the 16 calling for this silliness, but it feels like window dressing more than anything.  Biden won and all of the crying in the world will not change that. 

 
I mean when you have 106 Republican Representatives file a amicus brief to void the election in 4 states a with 16 states, I’m not sure where you go from that?  
To SCOTUS.

I don't think this is a "love it or leave it" argument. I think a number of states are making it clear that they are not OK with how other states in the union conduct their business to the point that they are filing suits for how they decided to carry out their elections to the USSC and trying to get the other states'  election results tossed out. That is a pretty profound attack on states' rights and unprecedented in our nation.
No it isn't and no it's not.  Whether willful or not you have a profound misunderstanding of states rights and the role of the Supremacy Clause.

 
I don't think this is a "love it or leave it" argument. I think a number of states are making it clear that they are not OK with how other states in the union conduct their business to the point that they are filing suits for how they decided to carry out their elections to the USSC and trying to get the other states'  election results tossed out. That is a pretty profound attack on states' rights and unprecedented in our nation. I have no strong opinion on this matter and don't necessarily think any state should be forced to leave. But if half of states don't agree with the way the other half of the states are conducting their elections at the federal level and are willing to try to overturn elections in other states, maybe it is time for a serious conversation to happen about whether or not this can work going forward. I don't think that secession would result in war. Why? If the non-seceding states didn't really care, it seems we could pass a constitutional amendment to allow it.  If we are now having states suing other states over their election laws because the POTUS they preferred lost then we are sort of through the looking glass here and the best remedy may actually be a divorce. 
The biggest problem is what about the 40-49% in each state who are on the other side of it?  Maybe there wouldn’t be armed conflict between the states, rather the armed conflict could be within the states themselves. It would require a willing mass migration of people between states and willing to give up their homes to avoid it. 

If we really are to the point of not being able to continue on together, how could we be expected to do so even within state borders?  There’s nothing magical that fixes the problem by replacing national borders with individual state borders. It only changes who is the minority in each one. In practicality this isn’t best outlined as blue states vs red states, it’s much more an urban vs rural split. I read the stat the other day and trying to get this right, but I think Biden won less than 20% of counties by land mass. It’s hard to find contiguous land that would fix this. 

 
The biggest problem is what about the 40-49% in each state who are on the other side of it?  Maybe there wouldn’t be armed conflict between the states, rather the armed conflict could be within the states themselves. It would require a willing mass migration of people between states and willing to give up their homes to avoid it. 

If we really are to the point of not being able to continue on together, how could we be expected to do so even within state borders?  There’s nothing magical that fixes the problem by replacing national borders with individual state borders. It only changes who is the minority in each one. In practicality this isn’t best outlined as blue states vs red states, it’s much more an urban vs rural split. I read the stat the other day and trying to get this right, but I think Biden won less than 20% of counties by land mass. It’s hard to find contiguous land that would fix this. 
It's well short of 40% in a bunch of states. It's 26.5% in Wyoming, for example.

There are blue counties even in red states, though. So after Wyoming secedes from the U.S., I'd expect Teton County to secede from Wyoming.

 
I don’t often quote tweets, but this one should be in a time capsule.

https://twitter.com/adamparkhomenko/status/1336838708759310341?s=21

“3,000 dead Americans today and ‘civil war’ is trending. The Republican Party did this.”
I admit I probably contributed to that trend. When I read the stat I started googling every civil war battle I could think of to see how many casualties.  I did not Google civil war in the hopes of learning how to kill those I disagree with politically.

 
None are seeking secession I'm aware of.

I'm also not super big on this "Love It Or You Can Leave" position. 
The Texas GOP just did

The Arizona GOP just asked people to commit to being willing to die to overturn this election 

Trump has explicitly mentioned the second amendment people taking care of a political rival, and suggested that his police and military supporters and Bikers for Trump could get violent. 

Trump supporters have gotten violent, and have been rewarded for it. 

 
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I reiterate 

If you want to secede, theres no argument from me

I'm perfectly happy with a Democrat majority in congress while you're gone 

gGo for 6 months minimum and if you change your mind come back

The GOP is openly suggesting secession 

Let them, or make them publicly change their mind 

 
I reiterate 

If you want to secede, theres no argument from me

I'm perfectly happy with a Democrat majority in congress while you're gone 

gGo for 6 months minimum and if you change your mind come back

The GOP is openly suggesting secession 

Let them, or make them publicly change their mind 
I wish your 2 prior posts were more inviting of a new reply, based what was reported today. Like it or not, it’s been made a relevant discussion.

I get the instinct will be to chalk this up to just some off hand comment, but it’s not. Not at a time when 77% of a party have been brainwashed into believing the US will not have an legitimate President on Jan 20. Any public official who would make such a reckless statement as leaving the union should be in a frying pan right now. You want your own banana republic? You got it. Or, be an active participant calling for unity.

People need to start taking these folks a bit more seriously when they effectively attempt a coup. Unsuccessfully, thank God, but let’s just call it what it is when it becomes active effort to disenfranchise 11 million US citizens to retain power. Over literally nothing. I nearly choked on my lunch reading Tim minimizing this as some benign pursuit of legal claims. Let’s just gloss over the fact this is unprecedented attack on democracy.

I’m genuinely interested in Joe’s reaction to the referendum threatened by Rep Biedermann last night, and an official statement from Texas GOP today.

 
Great post.  The fact that this tin can coup attempt was never going to work is not the point.  At all.  The point is that it was an attack on democracy.  A direct attack on its most sacred tenant.  Rule of the people by the people for the people.  

Democratic norms are eroding in America.  and while the republic repelled this attack, the fact that it was even made, by elected members of congress and attorney generals from states all over America no less, suggests that the union is in significant distress.  

 
Great post.  The fact that this tin can coup attempt was never going to work is not the point.  At all.  The point is that it was an attack on democracy.  A direct attack on its most sacred tenant.  Rule of the people by the people for the people.  

Democratic norms are eroding in America.  and while the republic repelled this attack, the fact that it was even made, by elected members of congress and attorney generals from states all over America no less, suggests that the union is in significant distress.  
Who would have ever guessed this would happen?

Oh wait, lots of people predicted it way back when Trump began his run for office.....

This is scary stuff all around.  Democracies are fragile.  No idea why so many people can’t see that.

 
Who would have ever guessed this would happen?

Oh wait, lots of people predicted it way back when Trump began his run for office.....

This is scary stuff all around.  Democracies are fragile.  No idea why so many people can’t see that.
Agree with the caveat that Presidential democracies are fragile.  This nonsense doesn’t happen in parliamentary democracies (which also have flaws).  

 
This is why I'm upset. You didn't make one or two posts, you rode your high horse all the way to embarrass bostonfredtown.

Uh oh. With the texas gop suggesting secession, let's revisit all of these posts where you said it was my idea and that I was the one telling people to leave.  Because your whole moral objection to my posts kind of fell apart. 

You spent half a day ####ting on my posts, asked for links about Republican leadership calling for violence, got them, didn't respond to the links I provided in response to your requests,  and suggested people move to another thread because this one wasn't worthwhile. Because you thought nobody was asking for secession and I was telling people to leave. 

Let's revisit this now Joe. 
I'm sorry to hear that's how you see it. I see it differently. I have zero interest or time to spend on trying to embarrass anyone. Not even sure how I could even if I wanted to.

You opened the thread saying

I am fine with allowing a temporary secession from the United States for as many of these states as would like to secede, and for a period of not less than six months but as long as they want. 

Please take it, and take your time deciding whether or not to come back. 
I and others said we weren't a fan of the Love it or Leave it approach. You said that wasn't what you were saying. I and others disagreed.

Sure it is. "Love it or I'll ask you to leave" is "Love it or please secede". 

I'd rather us talk about what we think is best and not ask people who don't like it here to leave.

That works ok on a message board. Not as well for citizens of a country in my opinion.
I believe that strongly. If that's offensive or seems like a high horse to you, I'm not sure what to tell you. 

I'm sorry but that's about all I have for this. 

 
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People have families, kids, bills, mortgages. Not sure if there are many people who really want a hot civil war.  
 

The pandemic is making all of this like a big game. Oh join a big lawsuit with SC, here let me Apple Pay my lawyer and get him to file a brief.  
 

Civil war? Yeah let me tweet about it.

Succession? I’ll release a statement from the comfort of my living room about my state leaving the USA while I’m in my pajamas and the kids are watching spongebob reruns for the 8th time.

A significant number of people are bored and treating this all as some big game, ratcheting the stakes, making crazy claims, etc. 

“Sorry I can’t go defend the TX border today, my kid has a soccer game,  how about Sunday from 3-5pm. Want me to bring a pizza?”

 
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Now that we have elected leaders actually calling for it, I think it's fair game to criticize those suggesting secession and I apologize to the OP for raising the "love it or leave it" angle, and he deserves credit for predicting where this was headed.  It's gone far past sour grapes and we have a state majority party actively calling for secession.  How in the world can we "heal", "build bridges", "move forward", or "show mutual respect" when we have this lunacy continuing?  And why is it always the Democrats who have to work towards the middle and capitulate?  Do people honestly think there is any interest from these 100+ representatives to meet in the middle when they have completely abandoned simple logic and blatantly disregarded the rule of law?   

 
Will Sommer@willsommer

Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio appears to have been invited to the White House. Pic from his Parler account this morning.

Maybe offering condolences?  Helping with the move-out plan? 

 
JMHO, there’s a strange focus on civil war. While that popped up as a side discussion, the OP was about secession... like Brexit. No one thinks Brexit requires soldiers carrying muskets. OP said we should offer them leave, some said that was unwelcoming position. Fine, agreed. But now GOP in Texas is openly inviting other states in a formal statement to join a pursuit for independence. The GOP of Texas, not some dude on his laptop with kids in PJs. The same GOP who just took a suit to the highest court seeking to undo a democratic election. 

 
People have families, kids, bills, mortgages. Not sure if there are many people who really want a hot civil war.  
 

The pandemic is making all of this like a big game. Oh join a big lawsuit with SC, here let me Apple Pay my lawyer and get him to file a brief.  
 

Civil war? Yeah let me tweet about it.

Succession? I’ll release a statement from the comfort of my living room about my state leaving the USA while I’m in my pajamas and the kids are watching spongebob reruns for the 8th time.

A significant number of people are bored and treating this all as some big game, ratcheting the stakes, making crazy claims, etc. 

“Sorry I can’t go defend the TX border today, my kid has a soccer game,  how about Sunday from 3-5pm. Want me to bring a pizza?”
That may describe most people.  It doesn't describe those gathering at rallies with "Stop the Steal" or showing up armed at various places and threatening lives and families.  Anyone against this rampage is at risk. 

I know it's not on every street corner and most people's lives are going on untouched, but that's not the case for everyone.  You want to be a poll worker in Georgia right now?  Those are regular people who previously had regular lives. 

Sorry, but downplaying the risks to citizens over this is dangerous and, while I can appreciate the "humor" in your post, I don't think you get the consequences of what's going on.

 
People have families, kids, bills, mortgages. Not sure if there are many people who really want a hot civil war.  
 

The pandemic is making all of this like a big game. Oh join a big lawsuit with SC, here let me Apple Pay my lawyer and get him to file a brief.  
 

Civil war? Yeah let me tweet about it.

Succession? I’ll release a statement from the comfort of my living room about my state leaving the USA while I’m in my pajamas and the kids are watching spongebob reruns for the 8th time.

A significant number of people are bored and treating this all as some big game, ratcheting the stakes, making crazy claims, etc. 

“Sorry I can’t go defend the TX border today, my kid has a soccer game,  how about Sunday from 3-5pm. Want me to bring a pizza?”
This is definitely true. Too many people have too much invested in their "side" and are looking for wins.

But those aren't the scary people.  The scary people are the ones who plotted to kidnap their governor, or surrounding their secretary of state's home with guns while her kids are terrified inside alone with their grandmother, or calling in death threats where they threaten to rape and kill a Senator. 

That's why its so dangerous when party leadership is openly suggesting dying for the cause. There are people who lost and are angry and have been whipped into a frenzy with nowhere to go and nothing to do about it. Some of those people have been violent and while it's uncertain who or how many will be in the future, it’s a near certainty that some of them will be violent, and the GOP has not stopped fanning the flames. 

Secession is on the table because it's the least violent option. This is the consequence of all of that angry talk. 

 
Now that we have elected leaders actually calling for it, I think it's fair game to criticize those suggesting secession and I apologize to the OP for raising the "love it or leave it" angle, and he deserves credit for predicting where this was headed.  It's gone far past sour grapes and we have a state majority party actively calling for secession.  How in the world can we "heal", "build bridges", "move forward", or "show mutual respect" when we have this lunacy continuing?  And why is it always the Democrats who have to work towards the middle and capitulate?  Do people honestly think there is any interest from these 100+ representatives to meet in the middle when they have completely abandoned simple logic and blatantly disregarded the rule of law?   
Agreed. The Republicans have officially lost their minds by taking this nonsense this far. 

Can you help me to understand this post in the context of your goal not to be offensive or embarrass anyone?
You are picking weird hills to die on here.  Let it go. 

Sidebar: I know you don't give two craps what I think and probably would tell me to blank off if the rules allowed it and that is fine, but your overly emotional reactions to Joe's reasonable posts are not helping at all as far as this discussion goes. And it is a discussion worth having. 

 
I think what BF was trying to posit is in the absence of some kind of conscious uncoupling, there's going to be violence. He's quite correct. It's also 100% certain there will be no uncoupling, so violence it is. We're Americans, it's kind of our bag.

I do not condone violence, just an acknowledgement of who we are.

It was Churchill, right, who said that you could count on Americans to do the right thing after every other option had been exhausted? That's what will likely happen here. Again, I'm not calling for it, but if an election official is assassinated, we will collectively look into the abyss and step back.  I trust Americans.

 
Can you help me to understand this post in the context of your goal not to be offensive or embarrass anyone?
You're a long time poster here. I'd hope you'd know me better than to think I'd try to embarrass anyone. Disagreeing isn't embarrassing someone. 

I don't have time to say things I don't mean.

I'm not up on all the latest meanings of everything, but when I say "Yikes", that means I'm surprised by something and sometimes (it does in this case) it means I also disagree with it. To me, it's like saying "Wow". 

You wrote: "All I ask is that you give these brave Republican states a chance. Let them secede so they can see what life could be like if they had full control for a while but give them a clear path back to becoming US states if they don't like it."

I'm very surprised by that and I very much disagree with that. So I wrote "Yikes". 

I spend a good bit of time here, (some think wasted) urging people toward unity. Or at least just being more cool to each other. Embarrassing someone has no place in either. 

I apologize if anything I've written here was seen as trying to embarrass anyone. That's the opposite of my intent. If I'm honest, it's kind of discouraging you'd think it was. But I also am a believer it's on the person writing or talking to be understood. So that's on me if that's how you read it. 

Last thought on the seceding or leaving thing. It matters a ton who is saying something. If Clint Eastwood says "I'm moving to Canada if Joe Biden is elected", that's a dumb thing to say in my opinion. But he can say it. Whatever.

But if I say, "Clint, if you don't like it here, you're welcome to move to Canada", that's an entirely different thing. 

Now obviously, states are different than people and I'm pretty sure we fought a war over that kind of thing. But from a general view, offering someone or state to leave their home and their country if they don't like it here is something I strongly disagree with. 

On the bigger sense, I do think maybe we're just talking over each other. 

For instance, I don't understand at all why you'd write "Maybe you'll alienate the people in the alcoholism thread i statted and you joined, maybe not"

I think that's a great thread and said so. Writing "Just seeing this. Thanks for starting and I love we can talk about it here."

I thought @Mr. Ham and the other folks branching off with more accountability was great. I certainly have no desire or reason to alienate anyone in that thread and honestly, it seems odd to even suggest. But we must be talking about different things or something. 

So bottom line for me is I strongly disagreed with your opening position. And I said so. With zero intent on embarrassing or disrespecting anyone.  
 

 
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I apologize
Appreciate you taking the time to respond. I agree that you're normally very respectful. It was exactly the fact that it seemed out of character that made me upset. It seemed personal.  I'll take your word that it wasn't.  I'm sorry for getting upset, and I've removed some of the posts to get this back on track. I'm also sorry for the overly salacious OP. 

But I'm not sorry for suggesting that secession with a clear path to return is on the table. Because I do think we are headed for violence if something doesn't change. I do think that secession is the only way to solve this without violence. I understand that you don't like the idea but part of the reason I'm frustrated is that I asked repeatedly what is the alternative except to just accept the predictable violence, and nobody has answered. Just... not secession.  

I do think that if you take that stance, then you have an obligation to vocally criticize the people who are calling for violence. It does no good for liberals to cry foul about things like the Arizona GOP tweets, or the countless comments from Trump. It emboldens the domestic terrorists when they get called to die for their cause and the only people calling them out are libs who need to get owned.  Oh the politically correct left complained and made you delete the tweets? Don't worry we got the message.

But it also emboldened the violent rhetoric when Matt Gaetz publicly threatened Cohen the night before his public testimony with no outcry from the right. 

If you want to say that secession is not an answer, but not provide a non violent alternative, and understand that this will get violent if the violent rhetoric continues, then you have the perfect platform here to talk about how the violent rhetoric is unacceptable and that there needs to be real consequences besides just deleting the tweets. I hope you continue to use it in that way. 

 
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bostonfred said:
This is definitely true. Too many people have too much invested in their "side" and are looking for wins.

But those aren't the scary people.  The scary people are the ones who plotted to kidnap their governor, or surrounding their secretary of state's home with guns while her kids are terrified inside alone with their grandmother, or calling in death threats where they threaten to rape and kill a Senator. 

That's why its so dangerous when party leadership is openly suggesting dying for the cause. There are people who lost and are angry and have been whipped into a frenzy with nowhere to go and nothing to do about it. Some of those people have been violent and while it's uncertain who or how many will be in the future, it’s a near certainty that some of them will be violent, and the GOP has not stopped fanning the flames. 

Secession is on the table because it's the least violent option. This is the consequence of all of that angry talk. 
Secession seems like a very violent option to me. 

 
gianmarco said:
That may describe most people.  It doesn't describe those gathering at rallies with "Stop the Steal" or showing up armed at various places and threatening lives and families.  Anyone against this rampage is at risk. 

I know it's not on every street corner and most people's lives are going on untouched, but that's not the case for everyone.  You want to be a poll worker in Georgia right now?  Those are regular people who previously had regular lives. 

Sorry, but downplaying the risks to citizens over this is dangerous and, while I can appreciate the "humor" in your post, I don't think you get the consequences of what's going on.
Threatening people and families is horrible and should ALWAYS be illegal regardless of who you are. If that’s happening, arrests should be happening as well. There are always idiots and murders and crimes being committed in a large country but overall it’s a safe place.My point was that for the majority of people, succession and civil war is not a realistic option, nor a desire, despite a few wackos threatening people.  And that rally is a sad little group of people that won’t give up, but people have the right to protest and as long as it’s peaceful, I don’t see how it relates to the discussion. 

 
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Secession seems like a very violent option to me. 
Secession would be violent if it is opposed by the non-seceding states. That's what happened in 1861.

Secession would not be violent if the non-seceding states take bostonfred's position that secession should be allowed rather than violently opposed. (I think that's the point of this thread?) Brexit, for example, will probably not be all that violent.

 
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shadrap said:
The part where he says "There cannot be a peaceful coexistence of two completely different theories of life, theories of government, theories of how we manage our affairs."

He believes that peaceful coexistence is no longer possible. What is the opposite of coexistence? Separation.

edit to add: I guess there is another possible conclusion: that Limbaugh is advocating for non-peaceful coexistence. Which would be even worse than separation.

 
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Secession would be violent if it is opposed by the non-seceding states. That's what happened in 1861.

Secession would not be violent if the non-seceding states take bostonfred's position that secession should be allowed rather than violently opposed. (I think that's the point of this thread?) Brexit, for example, will probably not be all that violent.
I think it would be pretty violent because most states have 40% or greater minorities when it comes to either red or blue.  For instance, I don't think most people in Illinois outside of Chicago would want to go with the "blue side".  I also don't think somewhere like Austin TX would want to go with the "red side".  Pennsylvania would be split into a large "red area" and two blue borders on the east and west.  I don't forsee large willing mass migration so by default violence would be the answer.  That doesn't even factor in the large portion of the population who isn't as political who would be forced to then choose a side.  Most folks like that I suspect prefer something middle of the road and I don't think that's what either alternative of who was in charge would bring about.

 
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The part where he says "There cannot be a peaceful coexistence of two completely different theories of life, theories of government, theories of how we manage our affairs."

He believes that peaceful coexistence is no longer possible. What is the opposite of coexistence? Separation.
I voted for Trump and always thought Rush was a kook.  I don't think the majority of Trump voters want that anymore than I think the majority of Clinton voters wanted that in 2016 despite all the people who said they were ready to leave the country.

 
The part where he says "There cannot be a peaceful coexistence of two completely different theories of life, theories of government, theories of how we manage our affairs."

He believes that peaceful coexistence is no longer possible. What is the opposite of coexistence? Separation.

edit to add: I guess there is another possible conclusion: that Limbaugh is advocating for non-peaceful coexistence. Which would be even worse than separation.
  Again, nothing in there where he states he is in favor of succession.

 
It won’t happen.  The people on the far right suggesting this do not have sufficient power nor do they have the backing of enough citizens to make this a reality.

It looks like there is going to be some civil unrest by some wackos on boff sidez but things will settle down.

Of course the president of the United States could calm things down if he wanted too, especially since he is the main guy whipping up this fervor over an election he lost by a landslide.   But it’s good business to keep his base energized and we all know how important that is to DJT.

Remember this summer when Biden was criticized for not doing more about the violence in the BLM protests even though he spoke out against it repeatedly and had no power to do much else?
 

Well you’re up Trump.  Come out and admit the election was not rigged or stolen from you and prove you give a damn about the country you lead. 

i am sure he will do the right thing.

 
https://people.com/human-interest/idaho-official-leaves-meeting-in-tears-protesters-outside-home-sons/

More violence 

Surrounded her house while her 8 and 12 year old were home alone with their grandmother 

Does anyone expect a Trump press conference to tell his supporters that this is unacceptable?  Maybe a tweet?  Of course not. 

These people aren't going to just disappear after the inauguration. They've been put in motion by someone reckless.

Tell me how this ends without violence. 
This is not something any president should respond to.

 
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