Vick sounds off on his critics (2 Viewers)

[Banger]

bump.After starting the year 6-2 (through week 9) the Atlanta Vicks have lost 4 of their last 6. They are sitting at 8-6 with 2 divisional games left with the Bucs/Carolina (one home/one road) which are essentially must win games if they want to make it to the postseason. IMO this is gut check time for Vick. He seems to get all the credit for the teams wins but suffers little blame for their losses. Does he get it done over the last two games? I guess not but if he does get it done it I will definitely give credit where it's due.

 

[P Boy]

Is it okay to critisize Vick now that he sucked AND he lost?

 

[P Boy]

Come back & tell me that when Eli has as much NFL experience as Vick does right now, and how it's turned out.

 

[jwvdcw]

FYI, Vick is 8-5 this year as starter. When you have people bumping a thread to "brag" that a player is only 8-5, you know he must be pretty good.

 

[t.j]

Come back & tell me that when Eli has as much NFL experience as Vick does right now, and how it's turned out.

Considering Vick didn't play anything resembling a pro style offense in college, whereas Eli did (not to mention everything he was taught by his dad and brother along the way), Eli effectively does have more experience than Vick.That said, Vick needs to grow up and stop letting the critics get to him.

 

[redman]

Come back & tell me that when Eli has as much NFL experience as Vick does right now, and how it's turned out.

Considering Vick didn't play anything resembling a pro style offense in college, whereas Eli did (not to mention everything he was taught by his dad and brother along the way), Eli effectively does have more experience than Vick.That said, Vick needs to grow up and stop letting the critics get to him sucking as a passer.

Corrected.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

FYI, Vick is 8-5 this year as starter. When you have people bumping a thread to "brag" that a player is only 8-5, you know he must be pretty good.

Or, that Vick is an average QB who gets to much credit for the teams wins. Bringing the winning theory into the equation does not hold a lot of water because of QB's like Dilfer and K. Stewart. If Atl had an average QB at the helm over the last couple of years there record could be just as good. Also, you say Vick is 8-5 this year but I am sure the loss that you are excluding Vick from would have probably been a loss because I am sure he would not have been able to muster out 32 points or more to beat the Patriots who scored 31 points. Teams Vick has beat this year:

Buffalo

Minny

NO's (twice)

Ny Jets

Miami

Detroit

Philly

Other the Philly at the beggining of the year, there is not one other team on that list that is good.

Teams that beat them:

Seattle

NE

TB

Carolina

Chi

GB

Other then GB who the Falcons never should have lost to, it goes to show you that Vick can win against below average teams but is struggling to beat good teams because Vick is just that average.

Last year the defense was playing much better and they were getting more wins, this year the defense is not playing as well, and Vick is not good enough to beat good teams without the help of his defense.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

So Vick's team being 1 game over .500 this year and Vick's numbers being average are we going to concede that right now in his career he is still no more then an average NFL QB with potential. In fact, I may even put him at below average at this point. Not seing this 2-3 year jump in his play coming from this west coast offence that everyone says is supposed to happen.

 

[jwvdcw]

. Bringing the winning theory into the equation does not hold a lot of water because of QB's like Dilfer and K. Stewart.

Theres a huge difference: The Falcons were terrible without Vick!Its one thing for a team to be good before a QB and after a QB(taking the Ravens example, they were 5-3 before him and went to the 2nd round of the playoffs after him and probably would've gone further if J Lewis didn't get hurt). Its a completely different thing for the team to be one of the absolute worst in the league without him and then be a championship contender with him.

When he got hurt they went 2-10. When he came back that same year, they had the hardest stretch of their schedule over the last 4 games...and they went 3-1. Care to explain that?

 

[jwvdcw]

Also, you say Vick is 8-5 this year but I am sure the loss that you are excluding Vick from would have probably been a loss because I am sure he would not have been able to muster out 32 points or more to beat the Patriots who scored 31 points.

Now you're just being ridiculous. Neither you nor I are "sure" of what would've happened if Vick played that game, and to claim otherwise is a waste of time.

 

[jwvdcw]

. Teams Vick has beat this year:BuffaloMinnyNO's (twice)Ny JetsMiami DetroitPhillyOther the Philly at the beggining of the year, there is not one other team on that list that is good.

Miami has beaten Denver, Carolina, and SD. They are not a bad team at all.Minnesota is 8-6.Winning in Buffalo is never easy, especially earlier in the year when many thought they were a playoff team.Bottom line is that they are 8-6 with him this year. Stop making excuses. 8-6...bottom line.

 

[jwvdcw]

So Vick's team being 1 game over .500 this year and Vick's numbers being average are we going to concede that right now in his career he is still no more then an average NFL QB with potential. In fact, I may even put him at below average at this point. Not seing this 2-3 year jump in his play coming from this west coast offence that everyone says is supposed to happen.

So was Tom Brady an average QB when they missed the playoffs in 2002? Was Peyton Manning an average QB when he went 6-10 in 2001?Yes, Vick has not met expectations this year. But its one year, and 8-6 is not that bad. Consider that in his first year as a starter, they went to the 2nd round of the playoffs, he got hurt in the next year, and they went to the conference title game in his 2nd full year as a starter. Now, they go 8-6 in his 3rd year- definitely a disappointment, but Vick's track record is anything but 'average.'

Oh, and you absolutely can't put yesterday's loss on Vick. In OT, the Falcon's kicker missed a 28 yard FG....how can that possibly be Vick's fault?

 

[jwvdcw]

So Vick's team being 1 game over .500 this year and Vick's numbers being average are we going to concede that right now in his career he is still no more then an average NFL QB with potential. In fact, I may even put him at below average at this point. Not seing this 2-3 year jump in his play coming from this west coast offence that everyone says is supposed to happen.

LOL at including the game in which Vick didn't play in the record. Since Vick took over as the full time starter in 2002:

With Vick:31-18-1

Without Vick: 2-11

Those are the facts. They are undisputed.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Atlanta's record was so bad that year without Vick because their backup QB was horrible. Any good team would suffer if they had to start a bad second string QB for almost an entire season. For me, the bottom line is Vick is wasting his potential. With his quickness and strong arm, he has a chance to be one of the greatest QB's ever, but he doesn't seem to care about becoming a better passer. He has had some decent passing games lately, but until he starts showing some consistency as a passer, I won't believe he is making any real progress.

 

[jwvdcw]

Atlanta's record was so bad that year without Vick because their backup QB was horrible. Any good team would suffer if they had to start a bad second string QB for almost an entire season.

For me, the bottom line is Vick is wasting his potential. With his quickness and strong arm, he has a chance to be one of the greatest QB's ever, but he doesn't seem to care about becoming a better passer. He has had some decent passing games lately, but until he starts showing some consistency as a passer, I won't believe he is making any real progress.

Ok, lets try to find some common ground here...I agree with you that Vick is a below average passer and hasn't shown much improvement.

Now my question to you is this: Why does that matter? He has clearly shown the ability to win and take his team far without being a great pocket passer. He is probably the only QB we could say that about right now. Suppose that all of the breaks had gone Atl's way last year against Philly in the playoffs and they had gone to the Super Bowl. Would you still say that Vick needs to improve as a pocket passer in order to be successful? What if they went on to win the SB? Would you still say he needs to improve in order to be successful?

Thats what I can't understand. Results are results imho, and just because someone doesn't get them in conventional ways does not mean that they aren't successful.

You say he isn't making progress? Hes been to the playoffs in 2 out of 3 years! Winning is the only "progress" that matters.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I think you are missing the point. Go back and watch that game against Philly in last year's NFC title game. They showed that if you can contain Vick and not let him gash you for big gains with his feet, he is virtually ineffective. Vick is unable to beat you with his arm if you keep him contained in the running game. That is why he needs to improve as a passer. Right now, teams do not fear his arm. They fear him making plays with his feet. If he improved as a passer and had teams fearing and game-planning to stop his legs AND his arms, he would be almost impossible to defend. However, as it stands now, most teams (with a good or better defense) know that if they contain Vick in the running game, you stand a good chance of holding Atlanta's offense down. And Atlanta's defense and rushing attack (minus Vick) had as much to do with them making the playoffs as anything else.

 

[jwvdcw]

Atlanta's record was so bad that year without Vick because their backup QB was horrible. Any good team would suffer if they had to start a bad second string QB for almost an entire season.

I'm certainly not going to argue that Doug Johnson is a good QB. However, do note that the injury happened in the preseason, so they had tons of time to prepare or even to trade if they didn't feel comfortable.And I will argue that any team that goes 2-10 is just a bad team overall. They are not one decent QB away from being a good team. Consider the Bears with Orton this year. Or the Ravens with Dilfer. A 2-10 team is a bad, bad team. Theres no way to argue that. Vick's supporting cast was terrible that year. Yet he came back and went 3-1. That is very impressive.

 

[jwvdcw]

I think you are missing the point. Go back and watch that game against Philly in last year's NFC title game. They showed that if you can contain Vick and not let him gash you for big gains with his feet, he is virtually ineffective. Vick is unable to beat you with his arm if you keep him contained in the running game. That is why he needs to improve as a passer. Right now, teams do not fear his arm. They fear him making plays with his feet. If he improved as a passer and had teams fearing and game-planning to stop his legs AND his arms, he would be almost impossible to defend. However, as it stands now, most teams (with a good or better defense) know that if they contain Vick in the running game, you stand a good chance of holding Atlanta's offense down.

And Atlanta's defense and rushing attack (minus Vick) had as much to do with them making the playoffs as anything else.

"They showed that if you can contain Vick and not let him gash you for big gains with his feet, he is virtually ineffective. Vick is unable to beat you with his arm if you keep him contained in the running game."I agree. In other news, if you contain Peyton Manning's passing, he is virtually ineffective. Peyton will not be a complete QB until he improves his rushing.

" he improved as a passer and had teams fearing and game-planning to stop his legs AND his arms, he would be almost impossible to defend."

I also agree with this. And maybe thats why you and others critisize him so much- because its frusterating when you think about how great he could be.

However that doesn't change the fact that right now even without great passing skills, Vick is still a winner. And winning is all that matters. Could he be better? Of course. Will he improve his passing? I'm not sure. But I am sure that he is a great QB even without above average passing skills. He is that unique.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I do not criticize Vick that much. Do not lump me in with the people who criticize him on a regular basis.

 

[jwvdcw]

And Atlanta's defense and rushing attack (minus Vick) had as much to do with them making the playoffs as anything else.

Vick helps the rushing game due to the fact that teams must respect the bootleg.2002: 4th in league

2003: 14th in league

2004: 1st

2005: 1st

2003 was when Vick was injured. Get my point?

Now lets take a look at this great defense:

2002: 16th in passing, 23rd in rushing, 8th in points allowed

2003: 32nd in passing, 29th in rushing, 30th in points allowed

2004: 22nd in passing, 9th in rushing, 14th in points allowed

2005: 12th in passing, 22nd in rushing, 15th in points allowed

Maybe I'm missing something here, but that doesn't look like a very good defense to me. You're going to need to explain to me whats so great about them.

Looking at those stats, its obvious to me that this is not a very good team at all. Vick carries them.

 

[jwvdcw]

I do not criticize Vick that much. Do not lump me in with the people who criticize him on a regular basis.

Ok. Won't happen again.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Now as mentioned by Ghost Rider the Falcons were starting a 3rd string QB at best when they lost all of those games. I think you are underestimating how much problems teams can have winning when a starting QB injury occurs to a team and you have to insert a 3rd string QB with much less talent. Look at the Stl Rams losing Bulger, the Eagles losing McNabb, the Jets losing Pennington etc etc. How bad would the Colts have done with Atl's D. Johnson starting for them over the last couple of years???? You are taking a 3rd string QB and viewieng how many wins he would get vs a starting NFL QB to prove the worth of Vick to his team; which does not make sense.Vick has had some success in his career and got some wins and he is a good player, but at this point he is still an average to below average NFL QB. Statistically he has been below average to say the least. I mean he has played in 56 NFL games since coming into the league and he has thrown for ONLY 49 TD's vs 39 INT's. He has however run for 19 TD's in that time frame which is awesome for a QB but that only puts him at 68 total TD's in his career running and throwing for the Atl Falcons. So for his career he has accounted for 1.2 Td production in 56 games out of the QB position which is not exactly spectacular numbers. Also, you can't exclude the fact that he has fumbled the ball 46 times losing 20 of those fumbels which means he is averaging a lost fumble every 3 games. Also, he has had to miss sometime due to injury in his young career which is a stat that should be noted as his style of play increases his percentage of getting hurt.Now he does get some wins but if we are to look at wins and losses in games that M. Vick has started as an NFL qb for the Atl Falcons he has 31-wins vs 19 losses and 1 tie. That means his average winning percentage as the starting QB in Atl is 61% which would work out to 9.75 wins in a 16 game schedule. Know that is ok but not this amazing winning percentage that you speak so highly of. Once again leading me to believe that thus far in his career he is average at best.

 

[jwvdcw]

Now as mentioned by Ghost Rider the Falcons were starting a 3rd string QB at best when they lost all of those games.  I think you are underestimating how much problems teams can have winning when a starting QB injury occurs to a team and you have to insert a 3rd string QB with much less talent.  Look at the Stl Rams losing Bulger, the Eagles losing McNabb, the Jets losing Pennington etc etc.  How bad would the Colts have done with Atl's D. Johnson starting for them over the last couple of years????  You are taking a 3rd string QB and viewieng how many wins he would get vs a starting NFL QB to prove the worth of Vick to his team; which does not make sense.

Vick has had some success in his career and got some wins and he is a good player, but at this point he is still an average to below average NFL QB.

Statistically he has been below average to say the least. I mean he has played in 56 NFL games since coming into the league and he has thrown for ONLY 49 TD's vs 39 INT's.  He has however run for 19 TD's in that time frame which is awesome for a QB but that only puts him at 68 total TD's in his career running and throwing for the Atl Falcons.  So for his career he has accounted for 1.2 Td production in 56 games out of the QB position which is not exactly spectacular numbers.  Also, you can't exclude the fact that he has fumbled the ball 46 times losing 20 of those fumbels which means he is averaging a lost fumble every 3 games.  Also, he has had to miss sometime due to injury in his young career which is a stat that should be noted as his style of play increases his percentage of getting hurt.

Now he does get some wins but if we are to look at wins and losses in games that M. Vick has started as an NFL qb for the Atl Falcons he has 31-wins vs 19 losses and 1 tie.  That means his average winning percentage as the starting QB in Atl is 61% which would work out to 9.75 wins in a 16 game schedule.  Know that is ok but not this amazing winning percentage that you speak so highly of.  Once again leading me to believe that thus far in his career he is average at best.

I understand that Doug Johnson wasn't a good QB at all, but I don't think a decent team would go 2-10 just because of that. The Eagles have actually done very well in the past without McNabb(Feely and Detmer did well). 2-10 is a bad bad team, not a team that is one average QB away from being a super bowl contender and not a team that would go 3-1 to end the season with an average QB.What makes you think the Falcons have a good team? I already addressed their RBs and defense a few posts up. Their defense is not good at all, and I have no clue why theres this myth that they are. And their RBs are completely average without Vick there to keep defenses honest. I could name 15 RBs better than Warrick Dunn, maybe even 20! And I know you're not saying that their WRs are good. I'll admit that Alge Crumpler is a top 10 TE, but other than that, they are a poor team except for Vick.

Lets take an average QB. Say a guy like Drew Bledsoe, Aaron Brooks, or Kerry Collins. How well do you think the Falcons would do with them? I think they'd be about a 5-11 team. JMHO.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Now as mentioned by Ghost Rider the Falcons were starting a 3rd string QB at best when they lost all of those games.  I think you are underestimating how much problems teams can have winning when a starting QB injury occurs to a team and you have to insert a 3rd string QB with much less talent.  Look at the Stl Rams losing Bulger, the Eagles losing McNabb, the Jets losing Pennington etc etc.  How bad would the Colts have done with Atl's D. Johnson starting for them over the last couple of years????  You are taking a 3rd string QB and viewieng how many wins he would get vs a starting NFL QB to prove the worth of Vick to his team; which does not make sense.

Vick has had some success in his career and got some wins and he is a good player, but at this point he is still an average to below average NFL QB.

Statistically he has been below average to say the least. I mean he has played in 56 NFL games since coming into the league and he has thrown for ONLY 49 TD's vs 39 INT's.  He has however run for 19 TD's in that time frame which is awesome for a QB but that only puts him at 68 total TD's in his career running and throwing for the Atl Falcons.  So for his career he has accounted for 1.2 Td production in 56 games out of the QB position which is not exactly spectacular numbers.  Also, you can't exclude the fact that he has fumbled the ball 46 times losing 20 of those fumbels which means he is averaging a lost fumble every 3 games.  Also, he has had to miss sometime due to injury in his young career which is a stat that should be noted as his style of play increases his percentage of getting hurt.

Now he does get some wins but if we are to look at wins and losses in games that M. Vick has started as an NFL qb for the Atl Falcons he has 31-wins vs 19 losses and 1 tie.   That means his average winning percentage as the starting QB in Atl is 61% which would work out to 9.75 wins in a 16 game schedule.  Know that is ok but not this amazing winning percentage that you speak so highly of.  Once again leading me to believe that thus far in his career he is average at best.

I understand that Doug Johnson wasn't a good QB at all, but I don't think a decent team would go 2-10 just because of that. The Eagles have actually done very well in the past without McNabb(Feely and Detmer did well). 2-10 is a bad bad team, not a team that is one average QB away from being a super bowl contender and not a team that would go 3-1 to end the season with an average QB.What makes you think the Falcons have a good team? I already addressed their RBs and defense a few posts up. Their defense is not good at all, and I have no clue why theres this myth that they are. And their RBs are completely average without Vick there to keep defenses honest. I could name 15 RBs better than Warrick Dunn, maybe even 20! And I know you're not saying that their WRs are good. I'll admit that Alge Crumpler is a top 10 TE, but other than that, they are a poor team except for Vick.

Lets take an average QB. Say a guy like Drew Bledsoe, Aaron Brooks, or Kerry Collins. How well do you think the Falcons would do with them? I think they'd be about a 5-11 team. JMHO.

Aaron Brooks and Kerry Collins are both average to below average QB's that are prime examples of being able to win games on mediocre teams. They could easily have similar records as a starting QB with the Falcons and could easily be 8-6 playing with the Falcons this season. That is my point completely, you put an average QB to good QB on the Falcons over the last couple of years and they could be just as good. Heck insert Schaub in there and see just as much success. The elite QB's that Vick gets compared to is ridiculous. Now I am not saying he is not going to be elite because he very well could be, but not yet, not even close.

 

[jwvdcw]

Now as mentioned by Ghost Rider the Falcons were starting a 3rd string QB at best when they lost all of those games.  I think you are underestimating how much problems teams can have winning when a starting QB injury occurs to a team and you have to insert a 3rd string QB with much less talent.  Look at the Stl Rams losing Bulger, the Eagles losing McNabb, the Jets losing Pennington etc etc.  How bad would the Colts have done with Atl's D. Johnson starting for them over the last couple of years????  You are taking a 3rd string QB and viewieng how many wins he would get vs a starting NFL QB to prove the worth of Vick to his team; which does not make sense.

Vick has had some success in his career and got some wins and he is a good player, but at this point he is still an average to below average NFL QB.

Statistically he has been below average to say the least. I mean he has played in 56 NFL games since coming into the league and he has thrown for ONLY 49 TD's vs 39 INT's.  He has however run for 19 TD's in that time frame which is awesome for a QB but that only puts him at 68 total TD's in his career running and throwing for the Atl Falcons.  So for his career he has accounted for 1.2 Td production in 56 games out of the QB position which is not exactly spectacular numbers.  Also, you can't exclude the fact that he has fumbled the ball 46 times losing 20 of those fumbels which means he is averaging a lost fumble every 3 games.  Also, he has had to miss sometime due to injury in his young career which is a stat that should be noted as his style of play increases his percentage of getting hurt.

Now he does get some wins but if we are to look at wins and losses in games that M. Vick has started as an NFL qb for the Atl Falcons he has 31-wins vs 19 losses and 1 tie.   That means his average winning percentage as the starting QB in Atl is 61% which would work out to 9.75 wins in a 16 game schedule.  Know that is ok but not this amazing winning percentage that you speak so highly of.  Once again leading me to believe that thus far in his career he is average at best.

I understand that Doug Johnson wasn't a good QB at all, but I don't think a decent team would go 2-10 just because of that. The Eagles have actually done very well in the past without McNabb(Feely and Detmer did well). 2-10 is a bad bad team, not a team that is one average QB away from being a super bowl contender and not a team that would go 3-1 to end the season with an average QB.What makes you think the Falcons have a good team? I already addressed their RBs and defense a few posts up. Their defense is not good at all, and I have no clue why theres this myth that they are. And their RBs are completely average without Vick there to keep defenses honest. I could name 15 RBs better than Warrick Dunn, maybe even 20! And I know you're not saying that their WRs are good. I'll admit that Alge Crumpler is a top 10 TE, but other than that, they are a poor team except for Vick.

Lets take an average QB. Say a guy like Drew Bledsoe, Aaron Brooks, or Kerry Collins. How well do you think the Falcons would do with them? I think they'd be about a 5-11 team. JMHO.

Aaron Brooks and Kerry Collins are both average to below average QB's that are prime examples of being able to win games on mediocre teams. They could easily have similar records as a starting QB with the Falcons and could easily be 8-6 playing with the Falcons this season. That is my point completely, you put an average QB to good QB on the Falcons over the last couple of years and they could be just as good. Heck insert Schaub in there and see just as much success. The elite QB's that Vick gets compared to is ridiculous. Now I am not saying he is not going to be elite because he very well could be, but not yet, not even close.

I obviously disagree. Anyway please tell me why you think the Falcons with an average QB are anywhere close to the team they've been the past few years.Their defense is below average, their WRs are some of the worst in the league, their o-line is average, their RBs are average, their coach is average, and they have a top 10 TE. How on earth does Vick get that team to the 2nd round and NFC Championship game if he is merely an average QB?

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Now as mentioned by Ghost Rider the Falcons were starting a 3rd string QB at best when they lost all of those games.  I think you are underestimating how much problems teams can have winning when a starting QB injury occurs to a team and you have to insert a 3rd string QB with much less talent.  Look at the Stl Rams losing Bulger, the Eagles losing McNabb, the Jets losing Pennington etc etc.  How bad would the Colts have done with Atl's D. Johnson starting for them over the last couple of years????  You are taking a 3rd string QB and viewieng how many wins he would get vs a starting NFL QB to prove the worth of Vick to his team; which does not make sense.

Vick has had some success in his career and got some wins and he is a good player, but at this point he is still an average to below average NFL QB.

Statistically he has been below average to say the least. I mean he has played in 56 NFL games since coming into the league and he has thrown for ONLY 49 TD's vs 39 INT's.  He has however run for 19 TD's in that time frame which is awesome for a QB but that only puts him at 68 total TD's in his career running and throwing for the Atl Falcons.  So for his career he has accounted for 1.2 Td production in 56 games out of the QB position which is not exactly spectacular numbers.  Also, you can't exclude the fact that he has fumbled the ball 46 times losing 20 of those fumbels which means he is averaging a lost fumble every 3 games.  Also, he has had to miss sometime due to injury in his young career which is a stat that should be noted as his style of play increases his percentage of getting hurt.

Now he does get some wins but if we are to look at wins and losses in games that M. Vick has started as an NFL qb for the Atl Falcons he has 31-wins vs 19 losses and 1 tie.   That means his average winning percentage as the starting QB in Atl is 61% which would work out to 9.75 wins in a 16 game schedule.  Know that is ok but not this amazing winning percentage that you speak so highly of.  Once again leading me to believe that thus far in his career he is average at best.

I understand that Doug Johnson wasn't a good QB at all, but I don't think a decent team would go 2-10 just because of that. The Eagles have actually done very well in the past without McNabb(Feely and Detmer did well). 2-10 is a bad bad team, not a team that is one average QB away from being a super bowl contender and not a team that would go 3-1 to end the season with an average QB.What makes you think the Falcons have a good team? I already addressed their RBs and defense a few posts up. Their defense is not good at all, and I have no clue why theres this myth that they are. And their RBs are completely average without Vick there to keep defenses honest. I could name 15 RBs better than Warrick Dunn, maybe even 20! And I know you're not saying that their WRs are good. I'll admit that Alge Crumpler is a top 10 TE, but other than that, they are a poor team except for Vick.

Lets take an average QB. Say a guy like Drew Bledsoe, Aaron Brooks, or Kerry Collins. How well do you think the Falcons would do with them? I think they'd be about a 5-11 team. JMHO.

Aaron Brooks and Kerry Collins are both average to below average QB's that are prime examples of being able to win games on mediocre teams. They could easily have similar records as a starting QB with the Falcons and could easily be 8-6 playing with the Falcons this season. That is my point completely, you put an average QB to good QB on the Falcons over the last couple of years and they could be just as good. Heck insert Schaub in there and see just as much success. The elite QB's that Vick gets compared to is ridiculous. Now I am not saying he is not going to be elite because he very well could be, but not yet, not even close.

I obviously disagree. Anyway please tell me why you think the Falcons with an average QB are anywhere close to the team they've been the past few years.Their defense is below average, their WRs are some of the worst in the league, their o-line is average, their RBs are average, their coach is average, and they have a top 10 TE. How on earth does Vick get that team to the 2nd round and NFC Championship game if he is merely an average QB?

Are Vick's WR's terrible or are they a victim of a poor passing QB??? Schaub throwing for 300 yards and 3 TD's in his start with the Falcons may have something to say about these horrid WR's you speak of. You have already mentioned it but Crumpler is a top 5 TE in this league and why are you giving no love to Dunn?? The guy is a better then average RB. I agree that Vick does not have great WR's however, it's not like he is helping them out. He has a low completion percentage and many times will tuck the ball and run first which is fine, but not when he runs before his WR's finish their routes dowfield. One of his problems is remaining patient and he gets happy feet and takes off to quickly and or does not set his feet to throw the ball after his Wr's haved finished or are finishing their routes.IMO Vick needs a good defense to bail out his inoconsitency and last season the defense played better then average and they won more games because of it. This season the defense has struggled and that is why the team is struggling to win more games. If the Falcons don't play well defensively they have to hope Vick is not having one of those inconsistent games and this year has revealed that his inconsistency is leading to more loses. Good QB's will find ways to get wins for a struggling defense but in Vick's case it seems to be he needs the defense more then they need him.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Their defense is below average, their WRs are some of the worst in the league, their o-line is average, their RBs are average, their coach is average, and they have a top 10 TE. How on earth does Vick get that team to the 2nd round and NFC Championship game if he is merely an average QB?

Getting to the NFC title game last year was no major feat considering how weak the NFC was. All the Falcons had to do was beat an 8-8 Rams team in the 2nd round to get there. The 2004 Atlanta Falcons were quite possibly the weakest team ever to get to a conference title game. Seeing them get their butts handed to them by a very good (but not great) Eagles team in the title game just confirmed it.

 

[jwvdcw]

Their defense is below average, their WRs are some of the worst in the league, their o-line is average, their RBs are average, their coach is average, and they have a top 10 TE. How on earth does Vick get that team to the 2nd round and NFC Championship game if he is merely an average QB?

Getting to the NFC title game last year was no major feat considering how weak the NFC was. All the Falcons had to do was beat an 8-8 Rams team in the 2nd round to get there. The 2004 Atlanta Falcons were quite possibly the weakest team ever to get to a conference title game. Seeing them get their butts handed to them by a very good (but not great) Eagles team in the title game just confirmed it.

Yes, the NFC was weak, but they didn't just win one playoff game. They also had to have a great regular season to get that bye. And the Eagles were a pretty damn good team imho.But ok, I see your point. But you have to admit that getting to the 2nd round of the playoffs and winning in GB in your very first year as a starter, with a pretty bad-average team around you is something special.

 

[jwvdcw]

Now as mentioned by Ghost Rider the Falcons were starting a 3rd string QB at best when they lost all of those games.  I think you are underestimating how much problems teams can have winning when a starting QB injury occurs to a team and you have to insert a 3rd string QB with much less talent.  Look at the Stl Rams losing Bulger, the Eagles losing McNabb, the Jets losing Pennington etc etc.  How bad would the Colts have done with Atl's D. Johnson starting for them over the last couple of years????  You are taking a 3rd string QB and viewieng how many wins he would get vs a starting NFL QB to prove the worth of Vick to his team; which does not make sense.

Vick has had some success in his career and got some wins and he is a good player, but at this point he is still an average to below average NFL QB.

Statistically he has been below average to say the least. I mean he has played in 56 NFL games since coming into the league and he has thrown for ONLY 49 TD's vs 39 INT's.  He has however run for 19 TD's in that time frame which is awesome for a QB but that only puts him at 68 total TD's in his career running and throwing for the Atl Falcons.  So for his career he has accounted for 1.2 Td production in 56 games out of the QB position which is not exactly spectacular numbers.  Also, you can't exclude the fact that he has fumbled the ball 46 times losing 20 of those fumbels which means he is averaging a lost fumble every 3 games.  Also, he has had to miss sometime due to injury in his young career which is a stat that should be noted as his style of play increases his percentage of getting hurt.

Now he does get some wins but if we are to look at wins and losses in games that M. Vick has started as an NFL qb for the Atl Falcons he has 31-wins vs 19 losses and 1 tie.   That means his average winning percentage as the starting QB in Atl is 61% which would work out to 9.75 wins in a 16 game schedule.  Know that is ok but not this amazing winning percentage that you speak so highly of.  Once again leading me to believe that thus far in his career he is average at best.

I understand that Doug Johnson wasn't a good QB at all, but I don't think a decent team would go 2-10 just because of that. The Eagles have actually done very well in the past without McNabb(Feely and Detmer did well). 2-10 is a bad bad team, not a team that is one average QB away from being a super bowl contender and not a team that would go 3-1 to end the season with an average QB.What makes you think the Falcons have a good team? I already addressed their RBs and defense a few posts up. Their defense is not good at all, and I have no clue why theres this myth that they are. And their RBs are completely average without Vick there to keep defenses honest. I could name 15 RBs better than Warrick Dunn, maybe even 20! And I know you're not saying that their WRs are good. I'll admit that Alge Crumpler is a top 10 TE, but other than that, they are a poor team except for Vick.

Lets take an average QB. Say a guy like Drew Bledsoe, Aaron Brooks, or Kerry Collins. How well do you think the Falcons would do with them? I think they'd be about a 5-11 team. JMHO.

Aaron Brooks and Kerry Collins are both average to below average QB's that are prime examples of being able to win games on mediocre teams. They could easily have similar records as a starting QB with the Falcons and could easily be 8-6 playing with the Falcons this season. That is my point completely, you put an average QB to good QB on the Falcons over the last couple of years and they could be just as good. Heck insert Schaub in there and see just as much success. The elite QB's that Vick gets compared to is ridiculous. Now I am not saying he is not going to be elite because he very well could be, but not yet, not even close.

I obviously disagree. Anyway please tell me why you think the Falcons with an average QB are anywhere close to the team they've been the past few years.Their defense is below average, their WRs are some of the worst in the league, their o-line is average, their RBs are average, their coach is average, and they have a top 10 TE. How on earth does Vick get that team to the 2nd round and NFC Championship game if he is merely an average QB?

Are Vick's WR's terrible or are they a victim of a poor passing QB??? Schaub throwing for 300 yards and 3 TD's in his start with the Falcons may have something to say about these horrid WR's you speak of. You have already mentioned it but Crumpler is a top 5 TE in this league and why are you giving no love to Dunn?? The guy is a better then average RB. I agree that Vick does not have great WR's however, it's not like he is helping them out. He has a low completion percentage and many times will tuck the ball and run first which is fine, but not when he runs before his WR's finish their routes dowfield. One of his problems is remaining patient and he gets happy feet and takes off to quickly and or does not set his feet to throw the ball after his Wr's haved finished or are finishing their routes.IMO Vick needs a good defense to bail out his inoconsitency and last season the defense played better then average and they won more games because of it. This season the defense has struggled and that is why the team is struggling to win more games. If the Falcons don't play well defensively they have to hope Vick is not having one of those inconsistent games and this year has revealed that his inconsistency is leading to more loses. Good QB's will find ways to get wins for a struggling defense but in Vick's case it seems to be he needs the defense more then they need him.

-I think the WRs are terrible. Right now, they are talented but young. However, a few years ago, they were just horrible....not talented or experienced. I don't think this is really arguable. Tell me, how many teams have worse WRs than the Falcons in your opinion? I will agree with you that often times, Vick does not help his WRs much.-No, I don't have any "love for Dunn." He is an average running back, who is helped immensely by playing with Vick. I do not agree that he is better than average. There are 32 NFL teams. IMO, a top 5 RB is great, top 10 is very good, #16 is completely average, and anything lower is worse than average. Here are 16 NFL RBs who, if healthy, are better than Dunn imo:

In no particular order

1. LTs

2. S Alexander

3. LJ

4. Portis

5. Edge

6. Willis

7. Jamal Lewis(yes I realized he has had a bad year, but he was in prison all offseason, so I give him a break for this year...if he continues to suck next year, then I'll admit that I'm wrong)

8. Dillon

9. F Taylor

10. Tiki

11. T Jones

12. Priest

13. L Jordan

14. McAllister

15. A Green

16. Rudi

Notice that I didn't even include any of the rookies or Chris Perry. The list could be longer imho if I wanted it to be. I really do like Dunn- hes a decent Rb and a really good person. But hes not a top RB.

-Again, where did this myth about a good defense come from? Look at the stats I posted...they aren't good!