Vick sounds off on his critics (1 Viewer)

[ChromeWeasel]

[schaub in his 2nd ever career start against the Patriots threw for 298, 3 touchdowns and 0 interceptions with those average players. Why can't Vick seem to do that? He still didn't do that this week and he wants to be praised for something a newcomer could beat?]

Double J, you're absolutely right

hey, who won that game again?

You are right my friend! Wins make a player what he is, and THATS THAT.Therefore Trent Dilfer is a far better QB than Vick. He did earn a SB ring as the starting QB afterall.

 

[Dancing Bear]

Da Guru's right on with this one!The Falcon's Defense certainly did their share to win this game! Holding any Offense to 103 yards passing is a big feat!Vick performance was still on a sub-par level yesterday. A 228 yard passing day with one TD is absolutely nothing to brag about, and Vick must really be hyper-sensitive if he thinks that this performance is adequate proof of him being a "Pocket" QB.Especially given his passing stats from each of the previous weeks.Week 01 : 156 passing yards, 0 TD's, 3 TurnoversWeek 02 : 123 passing yards, 1 TD's, 0 TurnoversWeek 03 : 167 passing yards, 2 TD's, 1 TurnoversWeek 06 : 112 passing yards, 1 TD's, 1 TurnoversWeek 07 : 116 passing yards, 0 TD's, 3 TurnoversWeek 09 : 228 passing yards, 1 TD's, 0 TurnoversTotals : 902 passing yards, 5 TD's, 8 TurnoversThese numbers are abyssmal for a QB!If he were a "Pocket" QB, then he would be out of a job!The fact that he is one of the most exciting players to watch in the NFL, the fact that he keeps D-Coordinators awake at night, and the fact that he WINS are all irrelevant to whether he is a "Pocket" QB. He is not a "Pocket" QB and never will be. You cannot turn a banana into a grapefruit no matter how hard you try. IMHO, Atlanta should be trying to more fully utilize his talents instead of trying to "transform" into something he is not or never will be!P.S. If Atlanta's Defense were poor, then Atlanta would have the same record as Green Bay and Houston because Vick could not pass to win!

 

[Pontiff]

I was watching ESPN and Irvin was interviewing Payton Manning.

He asked something about the criticism that Manning receives for the Colts lack of success in Foxboro.

Manning, one of the great QBs of all time, responded with, "That's a fair question" instead of the prefered response of some QBs, "I want people to praise me."

Vick should study Manning not only to see how to throw an accurate pass from the pocket and read a defense, but also how to handle criticism like a professional.

Maybe this is the part that is missing from Vick's "game".

 

[Jules Winnfield]

People do need to get off Vicks ###. All week it was "Vick is regressing! Will he ever be able to throw a TD again?!".

Guy is winning 69% of his games. Without him the team loses, a lot.

And I don't want to hear about Dunn, about the ATL D. It's all smoke and mirrors. Just watch Dunn run. It's funny how the DE chases Vick after ever hand off. A lot easier to run when the LB/DE follow vick after the hand off. Cause when they don't chase Vick, he'll roll out and run for 20 yds. Pick your poison.

And the ATL D blows. 23th overall D? The secondary is swiss cheese. The D line is undersized and can be dominated by a good run team. LBs are undersized. Brooking playing MLB is a mess.

He has no WRs to speak of. No ATL WR would even be a #2 WR on ANY team in the NFL. Look at the effect TO had on Mcnabb. He's magically has a career year. Gee, maybe WRs do help.

You have fools like Favre costing his team games week in and week out. 4th and 4 and he throws a hail mary to the TE? He could have crawled to a 1st down. The guy is a bumbling old man and is embarrassing himself. But Favre gets a pass because he's a) white b) was good 12 years ago. I seem to remember Vick going to GB and kicking their ### in the playoffs? Put Vick on GB and no way in hell they are 1-7. Sure he'd get killed, but he'd run for 150+ yds a few games and will them to some victories. I don't see Vick leading the league in INTs. I don't see Vick throwing 5 INTs.

Actually, I don't see Vick losing games. He's 6-1 this year. But to listen to most fools, Vick is the #1 problem with the Falcons. Never mind the Falcons are one of the worst franchises in professional sports before he got there. In 38 years, they've never had back to back winning seasons. Among the 4 major sports, that's a record, BY FAR. Even the Clippers are 17 years away from that kind of suckage. But wait, Vick is a problem, he has to get better, he needs to fix his passing game.

Excuse me? Fix the WRs. Fix the LBs. Fix the run D. Fix the secondary.

Vick has not cost his team a win all year. The D spread their legs and gave up 3 TDs in the 2nd qrter to Seattle. Was that Vicks fault? Vick wins, he doesn't need to get better, and unless you want to lay into QBs who deserve criticism *cough* Favre *cough* you should keep it to yourself.

I have been criticizing Favre this year and last year. Last year in the playoffs when Favre passed the line of scrimmage against the Vikes and then threw a forward pass it looked like he did it because he didn't want to get hit. He did the same thing this year.But..

*cough* 3 MVPs *cough*

When Vick gets 1 then call me. And to think that Vick doesn't need to get better?

 

[sartre]

[...] I'd hate to see him try to 'prove people wrong' by being more of a pocket passer and having it cost his team games.

For much of the past ~3 years, this has been the sentiment in philly regarding our QB.

 

[jwvdcw]

Imagine being one of the best players in the NFL, but still having a number of fans and media critics saying you're overrated. 

Vick is one of the best players in the NFL? Well, I guess that all depends on how many you are talking about. 10? 20? 50? I can say without absolute certainty that there are at least 15 players in the NFL that are better than Mike Vick.

I agree that it matters on what number you are talking about. I don't really like comparing players outside of their position because its apples and oranges. However, I will state that I think he is a top 5 quarterback because he wins as well as all but a few others- I don't care about how he wins.

 

[jwvdcw]

Imagine being one of the best players in the NFL, but still having a number of fans and media critics saying you're overrated.  Especially when all you do is help your team win.  Vick-hating is getting old.  He may not be the greatest fantasy QB, but he's a great NFL player and his team wins because of it.  There's really no debate anymore and anyone that keeps ripping him just looks silly.

Please, for all the hype this guy receives I think a little criticism is OK.

I've heard people say that he isn't even a top 10 NFL QB. IMHO thats ridiculously unfair criticism. He helps his team more than all but one or two other QBs, and that makes him a top 5 AT LEAST if not top 3 QB.

You're down 14 points with 5 minutes to go in the 4th. Do you trust Vick to lead your team to victory? How many other current QBs would you rather have in this situation?

Nobody ever said that they think Vick is one of the best QBs to have in a 2 minute drill when a rushing QB's strenght is negated becasue rushing the ball doesn't stop the clock.Thats like me critisizing Peyton Manning by saying, you have a QB running a bootleg and he can either pass or run it in. How many QBs would you rather have than Manning in this situation?

Lets just compare apples to apples....at the beginning of a game with the score 0-0, I would rather have Vick to win my team a game than all but maybe 2-4 other QBs.

 

[jwvdcw]

when vick starts the falcons win...the rest is just details.  he still isn't a good pocket passer though

When Vinny turns the ball over 4 times in his own zone the Falcons win!When the D gives up 10 points the Falcons win! Who is the QB?? Does it matter?

Really, so how come the Falcons went 2-10 without Vick two years ago? How come that very same year when he came back they suddenly went 3-1? How come the Falcons lost their only game without Vick this year yet are 6-1 with him this year?

 

[jwvdcw]

I was watching ESPN and Irvin was interviewing Payton Manning.

He asked something about the criticism that Manning receives for the Colts lack of success in Foxboro.

Manning, one of the great QBs of all time, responded with, "That's a fair question" instead of the prefered response of some QBs, "I want people to praise me."

Vick should study Manning not only to see how to throw an accurate pass from the pocket and read a defense, but also how to handle criticism like a professional.

The difference is that Manning is being critisized for losing. Vick is being critisized for winning but not looking good while winning. Can you really not see the difference here?

 

[jwvdcw]

Roethlisberger is twice the QB that Vick is, and he has won at a higher rate as a starter than Vick, and Roethlisberger comes in for some criticism - some of it well deserved, I might add.

If Vick wants the big paycheck, then he's got to accept some heat - especially when he is shoved down our throats as being the greatest athlete ever to play in the NFL (although there are at least a dozen better QBs in the league right now). I can say with great confidence that unless Vick learns how to play QB and not just rely on being the best athlete on the field that ATL will never win a SB with him starting.

That he is acting this defiantly about his poor QB play leads me to believe that he'll probably never improve much more as a QB.

Michael - grow up, suck it up, and shut up until you learn how to play QB effectively. Either that, or give up all the scratch & quit if you can't take some heat.

I agree that Big Ben is also one of the best QBs in the game today, so I won't argue that point too much(personally, I do think Vick is slightly better, but I have them so close in my rankings that I don't think its worth it to argue). He'll probably never improve as a QB? Huh?

First year: plays in some games, team missed playoffs.

Second year: starts all games, team makes second round of playoffs

Third year: N/A- gets injured, team goes 2-10 without him, team goes 3-1 when he gets back

Fourth year: Team makes NFC Championship game

How is that not improving? VICK DOES NOT CARE ABOUT IMPROVING HIS PASSING STATS OR ANY OF HIS PERSONAL STATS. HE CARES ABOUT IMPROVING AS A WINNING QB.

 

[jwvdcw]

Imagine being one of the best players in the NFL, but still having a number of fans and media critics saying you're overrated.  Especially when all you do is help your team win.  Vick-hating is getting old.  He may not be the greatest fantasy QB, but he's a great NFL player and his team wins because of it.  There's really no debate anymore and anyone that keeps ripping him just looks silly.

Statements like this are why Vick gets ripped. He's certainly not one of the best players in the NFL, unless your list is hundreds of players long. He's not even a top-5 QB! Would anyone really rather have Vick leading his NFL team instead of Brady, Manning, McNabb, Palmer, or Brees?Vick is the 30th ranked QB in passing yards this year and 26th is passer rating. I'd rather have a guy like Bulger or Delhomme who can put the ball where it's supposed to go. Even Bledsoe is significantly better than Vick this year.

Yes. Palmer has Chad Johson, and he still has never made the playoffs(although he is obviously likely to this year). Brees has the best RB and TE in the game and has never won a playoff game. Vick has a 2-10 team around him, yet he goes to NFC Championship games.Heres my list of QBs, although know that this list changes very frequently, as I'm very indecisive:

1.Brady

2.Manning

3.McNabb(if healthy, not right now)

4.Vick

5.Big Ben

 

[Noahs Troopers]

Alot of people are just assuming that Vick just spouted off out of nowhere. HE WAS ASKED THE SPECIFIC QUESTION BY A REPORTER ABOUT POCKET PASSING.

 

[jwvdcw]

Do you really think the offense comes from Dunn, Duckett, Jenkins, White, Price (04), Crumpler? That's a pretty average group of offensive players, but with Vick in there they keep winning games. He makes everyone around him better. Just because he doesn't look/play like many other QB's, doesn't mean he's not great

Schaub in his 2nd ever career start against the Patriots threw for 298, 3 touchdowns and 0 interceptions with those average players. Why can't Vick seem to do that? He still didn't do that this week and he wants to be praised for something a newcomer could beat?

Again you continue to bring up stats. WHO WON THAT GAME AGAINST THE PATS? Would you really rather your QB throw for more yards and lose than throw for less and win? I just don't understand the mentality that FF has created in some of you.

 

[jwvdcw]

Da Guru's right on with this one!

The Falcon's Defense certainly did their share to win this game! Holding any Offense to 103 yards passing is a big feat!

Vick performance was still on a sub-par level yesterday. A 228 yard passing day with one TD is absolutely nothing to brag about, and Vick must really be hyper-sensitive if he thinks that this performance is adequate proof of him being a "Pocket" QB.

Especially given his passing stats from each of the previous weeks.

Week 01 : 156 passing yards, 0 TD's, 3 Turnovers

Week 02 : 123 passing yards, 1 TD's, 0 Turnovers

Week 03 : 167 passing yards, 2 TD's, 1 Turnovers

Week 06 : 112 passing yards, 1 TD's, 1 Turnovers

Week 07 : 116 passing yards, 0 TD's, 3 Turnovers

Week 09 : 228 passing yards, 1 TD's, 0 Turnovers

Totals : 902 passing yards, 5 TD's, 8 Turnovers

These numbers are abyssmal for a QB!

If he were a "Pocket" QB, then he would be out of a job!

The fact that he is one of the most exciting players to watch in the NFL, the fact that he keeps D-Coordinators awake at night, and the fact that he WINS are all irrelevant to whether he is a "Pocket" QB. He is not a "Pocket" QB and never will be. You cannot turn a banana into a grapefruit no matter how hard you try. IMHO, Atlanta should be trying to more fully utilize his talents instead of trying to "transform" into something he is not or never will be!

P.S. If Atlanta's Defense were poor, then Atlanta would have the same record as Green Bay and Houston because Vick could not pass to win!

we've been down this road so many times before.For the last time, I don't care about stats and I don't think Vick does either. Why do you? Why do stats matter as long as a player is winning games?

 

[Stinger Ray]

as long as the falcs win games, im sure no fan or coach cares how well vick does as a pocket passer.

 

[ILUVBEER99]

Michael - grow up, suck it up, and shut up until you learn how to play QB effectively. Either that, or give up all the scratch & quit if you can't take some heat.

He does play QB effectively.For those who still don't understand the definition of a Quarterback, here it is once again.quar·ter·back Audio pronunciation of "quarterback" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kw�rtr-bk)n. Football Abbr. QBThe backfield player whose position is behind the line of scrimmage and who usually calls the signals for the plays.v. quar·ter·backed, quar·ter·back·ing, quar·ter·backsv. tr.1. Football. To direct the offense of.Whether he directs the offense by running or passing is irrelevant. He is one of the most effective QB's in the league.

 

[mcjc4]

He just needs to be more accurate. He wins alot of games, period. If he becomes more accurate he will be the best offense WEAPON in the league.He needs to wear a condom all the time as well!

 

[Stinger Ray]

Da Guru's right on with this one!

The Falcon's Defense certainly did their share to win this game!  Holding any Offense to  103 yards passing is a big feat!

Vick performance was still on a sub-par level yesterday.  A 228 yard passing day with one TD is absolutely nothing to brag about, and Vick must really be hyper-sensitive if he thinks that this performance is adequate proof of him being a "Pocket" QB.

Especially given his passing stats from each of the previous weeks.

Week 01 :  156 passing yards, 0 TD's, 3 Turnovers

Week 02 :  123 passing yards, 1 TD's, 0 Turnovers

Week 03 :  167 passing yards, 2 TD's, 1 Turnovers

Week 06 :  112 passing yards, 1 TD's, 1 Turnovers

Week 07 :  116 passing yards, 0 TD's, 3 Turnovers

Week 09 :  228 passing yards, 1 TD's, 0 Turnovers

Totals    :  902 passing yards, 5 TD's, 8 Turnovers

These numbers are abyssmal for a QB!

If he were a "Pocket" QB, then he would be out of a job!

The fact that he is one of the most exciting players to watch in the NFL, the fact that he keeps D-Coordinators awake at night, and the fact that he WINS are all irrelevant to whether he is a "Pocket" QB.  He is not a "Pocket" QB and never will be.  You cannot turn a banana into a grapefruit no matter how hard you try.  IMHO, Atlanta should be trying to more fully utilize his talents instead of trying to "transform" into something he is not or never will be!

P.S.  If Atlanta's Defense were poor, then Atlanta would have the same record as Green Bay and Houston because Vick could not pass to win!

we've been down this road so many times before.For the last time, I don't care about stats and I don't think Vick does either. Why do you? Why do stats matter as long as a player is winning games?

some people just are not smart enough to know the difference between fantasy success and nfl success.

 

[Stinger Ray]

vick is every owners dream player. he wins and he sells

 

[Double_J]

Do you really think the offense comes from Dunn, Duckett, Jenkins, White, Price (04), Crumpler? That's a pretty average group of offensive players, but with Vick in there they keep winning games. He makes everyone around him better. Just because he doesn't look/play like many other QB's, doesn't mean he's not great

Schaub in his 2nd ever career start against the Patriots threw for 298, 3 touchdowns and 0 interceptions with those average players. Why can't Vick seem to do that? He still didn't do that this week and he wants to be praised for something a newcomer could beat?

Again you continue to bring up stats. WHO WON THAT GAME AGAINST THE PATS? Would you really rather your QB throw for more yards and lose than throw for less and win? I just don't understand the mentality that FF has created in some of you.

So what exactly would Vick have done to stop TOM BRADY from marching down the field for the best clutch kicker EVER to kick a game winning field goal?

 

[packersfan]

He has no WRs to speak of.

Excellent point. I remember the game Schaub started. He had all sorts of problems completing passes to those WRs. He had a horrible day throwing the ball because of those WRs.Good info here.

 

[Fresh Prince]

He has no WRs to speak of.

Excellent point. I remember the game Schaub started. He had all sorts of problems completing passes to those WRs. He had a horrible day throwing the ball because of those WRs.Good info here.

See, Schaub stepped in and lead them to victory . . . wait a second, they lost that game.

 

[packersfan]

He has no WRs to speak of.

Excellent point. I remember the game Schaub started. He had all sorts of problems completing passes to those WRs. He had a horrible day throwing the ball because of those WRs.Good info here.

See, Schaub stepped in and lead them to victory . . . wait a second, they lost that game.

Yes they did but he had absolutely no problems making plays to the same WRs who are supposedly bringing Vick down. That's the point.It's time for the pro-Vick crowd to admit the WRs aren't the problem. Could they be better? Sure. But as Shaub proved against the two-time defending champs, the WRs are still good enough to make plays.

If the ball is thrown to them.

 

[PushyTheHappyAntelope]

The Falcons should hire Steve Young as a QB consultant for Vick. Young was the same way early in his career, prone to run and failed to show the 'touch' on his passes like Montana. It took a while for Young to work out his kinks. With Vick, the talent is there. I think he can be a functional West Coast Offense QB given the right coaching and the right scheme. I personally don't think Vick has had the coaching or veteran pedigree around him to get him where he needs to go. Schaub is a good QB no doubt, but the Falcons could use a vet like Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner or Brad Johnson to show Vick how to lead a team and how to be disciplined. I know people are saying Vick has been in the league long enough to adjust, but unlike Young, he wasn't inside a system for years and years before he got the ball. What I really think it will boil down to is Vick getting hurt bad. If he gets his knee popped or blows an ACL, he will be forced to adjust his freelancing style of play. It would also make him consider using all his weapons instead of just pulling back and running. Obviously the concussions hurt Young, but I think the early ones kind of settled his head out about how to be a QB, i.e. you can only take so many hits, why risk running every third play when you can manage talented players around you.

 

[Steel City]

 

[P Boy]

Absolutely bump worthy after Vick steps on his **** during a 24-6 shellacking in a game where ATL was playing for 1st place.So do we get to legitimately criticize the chosen one under his designated parameters after this loss?

 

[Banger]

Absolutely bump worthy after Vick steps on his **** during a 24-6 shellacking in a game where ATL was playing for 1st place.

So do we get to legitimately criticize the chosen one under his designated parameters after this loss?

but he wins right??

 

[jason12vb]

LOL, we all knew that a bump was comming, was just a matter or what hater wanted to be the one to do it. After 4 solid weeks of solid QB play no one said a thing...then the guy has a bad day against a nice, fast DLine and right to the top the thread goes.

 

[P Boy]

LOL, we all knew that a bump was comming, was just a matter or what hater wanted to be the one to do it.  After 4 solid weeks of solid QB play no one said a thing...then the guy has a bad day against a nice, fast DLine and right to the top the thread goes.

We're all just wondering when we have a right to criticize Vick. Is it after he has a 16.3 QB rating but the team still manages a W vs the Jets; or is it after he goes 70/125 with 6 TDs & 3 INTs in losing 3 of the last 4 games, including 2 huge divisional loses & a home loss to the woefully undermanned Packers?Or can we just not criticize the chosen one at all without being a hater?

 

[Loopdog]

it seems to me like Vick is afraid to run nowhe's so hell bent on proving to critics he can pass from the pocket that he's forgotten what makes him so dangerousif you havent seen progress with vick from the pocket, then you havent been watching him the past few weeksevery QB puts up stinkershow did Eli manning do yesterday?relax and leave Vick alone

 

[P Boy]

every QB puts up stinkershow did Eli manning do yesterday?relax and leave Vick alone

Do you really want to go here? I'd love to engage in a E Manning vs Vick debate in regard to QB play.

 

[Banger]

it seems to me like Vick is afraid to run now

he's so hell bent on proving to critics he can pass from the pocket that he's forgotten what makes him so dangerous

if you havent seen progress with vick from the pocket, then you havent been watching him the past few weeks

every QB puts up stinkers

how did Eli manning do yesterday?

relax and leave Vick alone

It's just that "the lovers" despite his below average historical #'s have always just used the blanket response "he's a winner". Now that his numbers are still average at best and he's not winning games all by himself what's the answer?

 

[lod2005]

it seems to me like Vick is afraid to run now

he's so hell bent on proving to critics he can pass from the pocket that he's forgotten what makes him so dangerous

if you havent seen progress with vick from the pocket, then you havent been watching him the past few weeks

every QB puts up stinkers

how did Eli manning do yesterday?

relax and leave Vick alone

It's just that "the lovers" despite his below average historical #'s have always just used the blanket response "he's a winner". Now that his numbers are still average at best and he's not winning games all by himself what's the answer?

It must be the receivers.. In all reality, vick is a running back trying to play QB.

 

[Biabreakable]

I think Vick has improved as a passer somewhat this year. He has had a lot of room for improvement in this aspect of being a Qb.He had a bad game against a difficult defense to play well against. That does not diminish the improvement I have noticed with his passing in recent weeks.For those saying that Vick does not have good Wrs around him I do think it is only fair to consider that the Falcons used a 1st round pick to get Peerless Price (bust) a 1st round pick on Jenkins (decent) and another 1st round pick on Roddy White (definitly can burn).This is a similar level of investment from the Falcons in getting Vick weapons to use in the passing game as Detroit has made in thier 3 1st round Wrs. Although the Lions Wrs were taken much higher in the 1st round.It still remains to be seen how Jenkins/White develop. But I don't think it is being objective to say that the Falcons have not been bringing in talent to help Vick as a passer. Perhaps they would seem better with another Qb and scheme than they do with Vick. Perhaps not. It is too early to tell and without another Qb playing with them to compare to except Shaub in limited action.However if neither of these Wrs develop into quality Wrs over the next 2 years then I do think it will reflect more Vicks ability as a passer or lack thereof than it shows that these Wrs are not talented players.I can see this going either way. They all progress together or things remain the same. Vick is becoming a veteran now. His grace period for excusing this aspect of his game will hold less water as time goes on if he does not improve as a passer. A good Qb is supposed to make the players around him better. I think Vick certainly does this because of his running ability. But until he can get the ball to a Wr consitently I think he will deservedly be ciritisized as a poor passer. Because he has every opportunity around him to improve.So why doesen't he? Or has he?

 

[The Football Freak]

I think Vick has improved as a passer somewhat this year. He has had a lot of room for improvement in this aspect of being a Qb.

He had a bad game against a difficult defense to play well against. That does not diminish the improvement I have noticed with his passing in recent weeks.

For those saying that Vick does not have good Wrs around him I do think it is only fair to consider that the Falcons used a 1st round pick to get Peerless Price (bust) a 1st round pick on Jenkins (decent) and another 1st round pick on Roddy White (definitly can burn).

This is a similar level of investment from the Falcons in getting Vick weapons to use in the passing game as Detroit has made in thier 3 1st round Wrs. Although the Lions Wrs were taken much higher in the 1st round.

It still remains to be seen how Jenkins/White develop. But I don't think it is being objective to say that the Falcons have not been bringing in talent to help Vick as a passer. Perhaps they would seem better with another Qb and scheme than they do with Vick. Perhaps not. It is too early to tell and without another Qb playing with them to compare to except Shaub in limited action.

However if neither of these Wrs develop into quality Wrs over the next 2 years then I do think it will reflect more Vicks ability as a passer or lack thereof than it shows that these Wrs are not talented players.

I can see this going either way. They all progress together or things remain the same. Vick is becoming a veteran now. His grace period for excusing this aspect of his game will hold less water as time goes on if he does not improve as a passer. A good Qb is supposed to make the players around him better. I think Vick certainly does this because of his running ability. But until he can get the ball to a Wr consitently I think he will deservedly be ciritisized as a poor passer. Because he has every opportunity around him to improve.

So why doesen't he? Or has he?

I don't see much improvement at all over the last bunch of years. He is not much of a QB but is dangerous with his legs. With the running stats they have he should find defenses pretty soft against the pass, but he still can't get it doen very much. Pony's summation of his last bunch of games shows what kind of passer he is. I have Dunn so I have watched all the games this year and I can honestly say that he is a bad QB. He is a winner with great legs that take a lot of pressure off him since he can't throw very well, but he makes bad decisions, bad reads, and bad throws. Rolling out he can sometimes hit a reveiver deep that has beat his coverage, but it is almost never on the mark and the receivers have to majorly adjust to get it. I have been saying for a while now that the Falcons should pick half a quarter completely randomly during each game, to put in Schaub and get a real pocket passer in there. It throw off defenses that would have to adjust majorly in the middle of a game, and if you always pick the first half of any random quarter then they are making two major adjustments in opne quarter which will almost certainly turn into some points while the defense is off kilter. I think that would help Vick throw a little cause defenses would be kept honest. Vick is a winner that can do amazing things so he should be on the field, but defenses are keying in on him more and more every year.

 

[jwvdcw]

Absolutely bump worthy after Vick steps on his **** during a 24-6 shellacking in a game where ATL was playing for 1st place.

So do we get to legitimately criticize the chosen one under his designated parameters after this loss?

I could be wrong, as I don't have the stats in front of me....but didn't Vick have like 2 of his best passing outings ever in the past few weeks yet they lost both games.Seems to me like Vick is too concerned with critics. He can throw for under 200 yards and still be one of the best QBs in the league because its wins, not stats, that matter. He needs to not even worry about this. If he continues to win, he will go down as an all time great regardless of stats....hopefully he realizes this.

 

[jwvdcw]

LOL, we all knew that a bump was comming, was just a matter or what hater wanted to be the one to do it.  After 4 solid weeks of solid QB play no one said a thing...then the guy has a bad day against a nice, fast DLine and right to the top the thread goes.

We're all just wondering when we have a right to criticize Vick. Is it after he has a 16.3 QB rating but the team still manages a W vs the Jets; or is it after he goes 70/125 with 6 TDs & 3 INTs in losing 3 of the last 4 games, including 2 huge divisional loses & a home loss to the woefully undermanned Packers?Or can we just not criticize the chosen one at all without being a hater?

When he loses games, you can critisize away and you won't hear me defending him at all. Yet when he wins games but puts up bad stats, I will be here defending him all day long.

 

[jwvdcw]

it seems to me like Vick is afraid to run now

he's so hell bent on proving to critics he can pass from the pocket that he's forgotten what makes him so dangerous

if you havent seen progress with vick from the pocket, then you havent been watching him the past few weeks

every QB puts up stinkers

how did Eli manning do yesterday?

relax and leave Vick alone

It's just that "the lovers" despite his below average historical #'s have always just used the blanket response "he's a winner". Now that his numbers are still average at best and he's not winning games all by himself what's the answer?

They're 7-5 and in playoff contention with a very similar to team to the one that was 2-11 without Vick 2 years ago.

 

[jwvdcw]

I think Vick has improved as a passer somewhat this year. He has had a lot of room for improvement in this aspect of being a Qb.

He had a bad game against a difficult defense to play well against. That does not diminish the improvement I have noticed with his passing in recent weeks.

For those saying that Vick does not have good Wrs around him I do think it is only fair to consider that the Falcons used a 1st round pick to get Peerless Price (bust) a 1st round pick on Jenkins (decent) and another 1st round pick on Roddy White (definitly can burn).

This is a similar level of investment from the Falcons in getting Vick weapons to use in the passing game as Detroit has made in thier 3 1st round Wrs. Although the Lions Wrs were taken much higher in the 1st round.

It still remains to be seen how Jenkins/White develop. But I don't think it is being objective to say that the Falcons have not been bringing in talent to help Vick as a passer. Perhaps they would seem better with another Qb and scheme than they do with Vick. Perhaps not. It is too early to tell and without another Qb playing with them to compare to except Shaub in limited action.

However if neither of these Wrs develop into quality Wrs over the next 2 years then I do think it will reflect more Vicks ability as a passer or lack thereof than it shows that these Wrs are not talented players.

I can see this going either way. They all progress together or things remain the same. Vick is becoming a veteran now. His grace period for excusing this aspect of his game will hold less water as time goes on if he does not improve as a passer. A good Qb is supposed to make the players around him better. I think Vick certainly does this because of his running ability. But until he can get the ball to a Wr consitently I think he will deservedly be ciritisized as a poor passer. Because he has every opportunity around him to improve.

So why doesen't he? Or has he?

I guess its what you define as improving. sat bench

First year as starter: miss playoffs

Second year: 2nd round

injured(went 3-1 in limited action, team was 2-11 without him)

Third year: third round of playoffs

Stats are stats. Not really as important as winning. I think that after "improving" as much as he has, he could have one off year and still be considered successful for his young career.

 

[KevT]

LOL, we all knew that a bump was comming, was just a matter or what hater wanted to be the one to do it. After 4 solid weeks of solid QB play no one said a thing...then the guy has a bad day against a nice, fast DLine and right to the top the thread goes.

We're all just wondering when we have a right to criticize Vick. Is it after he has a 16.3 QB rating but the team still manages a W vs the Jets; or is it after he goes 70/125 with 6 TDs & 3 INTs in losing 3 of the last 4 games, including 2 huge divisional loses & a home loss to the woefully undermanned Packers?Or can we just not criticize the chosen one at all without being a hater?

When he loses games, you can critisize away and you won't hear me defending him at all. Yet when he wins games but puts up bad stats, I will be here defending him all day long.

Seriously, jwvdcw give it a rest. If Vick has a terrible game with terrible stats it's not because of him that they won.

 

[Rhino]

There's a dead horse somewhere that just wishes everyone would stop beating it...You can sum this all up in two sentences:Vick Lovers believe the Falcons win BECAUSE of Mike VickVick Haters believe the Falcons win IN SPITE of Mike VickThe two shall never agree.

 

[jason12vb]

LOL, we all knew that a bump was comming, was just a matter or what hater wanted to be the one to do it. After 4 solid weeks of solid QB play no one said a thing...then the guy has a bad day against a nice, fast DLine and right to the top the thread goes.

We're all just wondering when we have a right to criticize Vick. Is it after he has a 16.3 QB rating but the team still manages a W vs the Jets; or is it after he goes 70/125 with 6 TDs & 3 INTs in losing 3 of the last 4 games, including 2 huge divisional loses & a home loss to the woefully undermanned Packers?Or can we just not criticize the chosen one at all without being a hater?

I'm not a Vick lover by any means...I think the guy gets results and has a nice starting record. I just found it humerous that the thread needed to be bumped a month after the last post when he finaly had a bad game.Critisize all you want, but if you think you have the right to do so you should also give credit when it's due.

 

[bostonfred]

I'd love to engage in a E Manning vs Vick debate in regard to QB play.

OK. Start.

 

[Biabreakable]

I think Vick has improved as a passer somewhat this year. He has had a lot of room for improvement in this aspect of being a Qb.

He had a bad game against a difficult defense to play well against. That does not diminish the improvement I have noticed with his passing in recent weeks.

For those saying that Vick does not have good Wrs around him I do think it is only fair to consider that the Falcons used a 1st round pick to get Peerless Price (bust) a 1st round pick on Jenkins (decent) and another 1st round pick on Roddy White (definitly can burn).

This is a similar level of investment from the Falcons in getting Vick weapons to use in the passing game as Detroit has made in thier 3 1st round Wrs. Although the Lions Wrs were taken much higher in the 1st round.

It still remains to be seen how Jenkins/White develop. But I don't think it is being objective to say that the Falcons have not been bringing in talent to help Vick as a passer. Perhaps they would seem better with another Qb and scheme than they do with Vick. Perhaps not. It is too early to tell and without another Qb playing with them to compare to except Shaub in limited action.

However if neither of these Wrs develop into quality Wrs over the next 2 years then I do think it will reflect more Vicks ability as a passer or lack thereof than it shows that these Wrs are not talented players.

I can see this going either way. They all progress together or things remain the same. Vick is becoming a veteran now. His grace period for excusing this aspect of his game will hold less water as time goes on if he does not improve as a passer. A good Qb is supposed to make the players around him better. I think Vick certainly does this because of his running ability. But until he can get the ball to a Wr consitently I think he will deservedly be ciritisized as a poor passer. Because he has every opportunity around him to improve.

So why doesen't he? Or has he?

I guess its what you define as improving. sat bench

First year as starter: miss playoffs

Second year: 2nd round

injured(went 3-1 in limited action, team was 2-11 without him)

Third year: third round of playoffs

Stats are stats. Not really as important as winning. I think that after "improving" as much as he has, he could have one off year and still be considered successful for his young career.

I was talking about his progress as a passer which would have to be assesed by his passing proficiency. Not about his success in terms of wins/losses as a Qb.I believe that 53 players/coaches/management win/lose football games not one player.

I believe a Qb is supposed to manage the game get the ball to his playmakers and put them in the best position he can for them to make plays.

A good Qb makes the players around him better than they would be otherwise.

When Vick calls his own number he has decided that he is the teams best play maker. But he cannot call is own number 50 times a game any more than a rb could handle so many carries.

If he does not improve as a passer then he is not improving as a Qb.

 

[P Boy]

I'd love to engage in a E Manning vs Vick debate in regard to QB play.

OK. Start.

Manning is a better QB right now despite having much less NFL experience. He's got a lower completion percentage than Vick this year at 51.4% to 56.0%, but his ypa is 6.77, higher than Vick's 6.32 ypa, Manning's TD/INT ratio is better at 1.67 to 1.33 for Vick, and Manning has a better QB rating than Vick at 77.2 to 76.0 for Vick. Manning generates 236 ypg vs Vick's combined 198 ypg pass + rush.And that's all with Vick 3 yrs ahead on the learning curve. Vick ought to be starting his prime as far as honing his QB skills are concerned, and a guy with less than 2 yrs of experience is outperforming him at QB.

 

[bostonfred]

Manning is a better QB right now despite having much less NFL experience. He's got a lower completion percentage than Vick this year at 51.4% to 56.0%, but his ypa is 6.77, higher than Vick's 6.32 ypa, Manning's TD/INT ratio is better at 1.67 to 1.33 for Vick, and Manning has a better QB rating than Vick at 77.2 to 76.0 for Vick. Manning generates 236 ypg vs Vick's combined 198 ypg pass + rush.

Your TD/INT percentage is a terrible statistic to compare these two. Manning has 19 turnovers to Vick's 13, and has 20 total TDs to Vick's 16. That gives Vick the better ratio of TDs to TOs, 16:13 vs. 20:19. Manning has more yards, but he's also played 11 games. Vick missed a game this year, threw only 8 passes in another, and played dinged up the next couple games, so no wonder you want to talk about his totals. And before you play the "gets injured because he runs too much" card, he got hurt in the pocket.

And that's all with Vick 3 yrs ahead on the learning curve. Vick ought to be starting his prime as far as honing his QB skills are concerned, and a guy with less than 2 yrs of experience is outperforming him at QB.

I love how you talk about how much more NFL experience Manning has than Vick, considering Vick is just a year older than Manning. Vick started at a much younger age, and led his team to an unprecedented playoff win in Lambeau a year younger than Eli was last year when he could barely play. But even if you forget their ages, Vick had a better passer rating in his first two years in the league (63 and 82) than Manning (55 and 77). Vick had 3700 yards in 15 games in his second year in the league; Manning is on pace for 4100 over 16 games. That's not the huge disparity you're pretending it is.

Vick is 29-20-1 as a starter. The same team is 10-19 without him. Manning is 8-10 as a starter. The same team is 5-4 without him.

Vick forces opposing teams to gameplan for him. He makes the running game better because opponents have to put an extra defender on him. The Falcons have been #4, #1 and #1 in rushing the years that he played. In the years he missed, they were #14 and #16, respectively. The Giants have been 10th, and 11th, respectively. As a result, the teams have almost exactly the same number of total yards on offense - 3561 to 3565.

Oh, and just for fun, Vick holds the modern-day NFL single-season record for the most 100-yard rushing games by a quarterback with three and holds an NFL record for the most career 100-yard rushing games for a quarterback with five. He also has as many career 300 yard passing games as Manning, although he obviously has more games to draw on. Manning doesn't hold any records, does he?

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

In relation to the Vick vs Eli debate. It seems that in 2-3 years you will get your answer. I believe Vick will not hold Eli's shorts at that time. Vick will continue to be a good running QB, a below average passing QB, that will get some wins but never make it into the elite category because of inconsistency. His inconsistency will lead to more and more losses piling up over the next 2-3 years. You are only seeing the begginning of it now. Teams are getting faster on defense and I will take the pure pocket passer who can read the game and more consistently throw the ball to beat teams as opposed to relying on his legs. Also, look at the number of games Vick has already missed in his young career and tell me why this trend won't continue??? Eli like his brother does not get hurt and play all the time because they rarely get hit. Vick is a good QB but due to inconsistency will have trouble putting together consecutive winning seasons over and over again because of it. Eli on the other hand will not. Everyone discounts the durability of a player but I feel if Vick is injured and not playing because of it then he is just as much at fault for the loss. This is why guys like Favre and P. Manning are great. Because they don't get hurt. Also, this has been mentioned before but if Eli are many other starting Qb's get inijured there teams would do just as bad as the Falcons did without Vick in there 2 years ago. See what happened when Big Ben was out this year. Remember those are back up QB's playing. If Schaub was the QB then that team would not have been 2-11.

 

[Capella]

Manning is a better QB right now despite having much less NFL experience.  He's got a lower completion percentage than Vick this year at 51.4% to 56.0%, but his ypa is 6.77, higher than Vick's 6.32 ypa, Manning's TD/INT ratio is better at 1.67 to 1.33 for Vick, and Manning has a better QB rating than Vick at 77.2 to 76.0 for Vick.  Manning generates 236 ypg vs Vick's combined 198 ypg pass + rush.

Your TD/INT percentage is a terrible statistic to compare these two. Manning has 19 turnovers to Vick's 13, and has 20 total TDs to Vick's 16. That gives Vick the better ratio of TDs to TOs, 16:13 vs. 20:19. Manning has more yards, but he's also played 11 games. Vick missed a game this year, threw only 8 passes in another, and played dinged up the next couple games, so no wonder you want to talk about his totals. And before you play the "gets injured because he runs too much" card, he got hurt in the pocket.

And that's all with Vick 3 yrs ahead on the learning curve.  Vick ought to be starting his prime as far as honing his QB skills are concerned, and a guy with less than 2 yrs of experience is outperforming him at QB.

I love how you talk about how much more NFL experience Manning has than Vick, considering Vick is just a year older than Manning. Vick started at a much younger age, and led his team to an unprecedented playoff win in Lambeau a year younger than Eli was last year when he could barely play. But even if you forget their ages, Vick had a better passer rating in his first two years in the league (63 and 82) than Manning (55 and 77). Vick had 3700 yards in 15 games in his second year in the league; Manning is on pace for 4100 over 16 games. That's not the huge disparity you're pretending it is.

Vick is 29-20-1 as a starter. The same team is 10-19 without him. Manning is 8-10 as a starter. The same team is 5-4 without him.

Vick forces opposing teams to gameplan for him. He makes the running game better because opponents have to put an extra defender on him. The Falcons have been #4, #1 and #1 in rushing the years that he played. In the years he missed, they were #14 and #16, respectively. The Giants have been 10th, and 11th, respectively. As a result, the teams have almost exactly the same number of total yards on offense - 3561 to 3565.

Oh, and just for fun, Vick holds the modern-day NFL single-season record for the most 100-yard rushing games by a quarterback with three and holds an NFL record for the most career 100-yard rushing games for a quarterback with five. He also has as many career 300 yard passing games as Manning, although he obviously has more games to draw on. Manning doesn't hold any records, does he?

 

[bostonfred]

In relation to the Vick vs Eli debate. It seems that in 2-3 years you will get your answer.

I believe Vick will not hold Eli's shorts at that time. Vick will continue to be a good running QB, a below average passing QB, that will get some wins but never make it into the elite category because of inconsistency. His inconsistency will lead to more and more losses piling up over the next 2-3 years. You are only seeing the begginning of it now. Teams are getting faster on defense and I will take the pure pocket passer who can read the game and more consistently throw the ball to beat teams as opposed to relying on his legs. Also, look at the number of games Vick has already missed in his young career and tell me why this trend won't continue??? Eli like his brother does not get hurt and play all the time because they rarely get hit.

Vick is a good QB but due to inconsistency will have trouble putting together consecutive winning seasons over and over again because of it. Eli on the other hand will not. Everyone discounts the durability of a player but I feel if Vick is injured and not playing because of it then he is just as much at fault for the loss. This is why guys like Favre and P. Manning are great. Because they don't get hurt. Also, this has been mentioned before but if Eli are many other starting Qb's get inijured there teams would do just as bad as the Falcons did without Vick in there 2 years ago. See what happened when Big Ben was out this year. Remember those are back up QB's playing. If Schaub was the QB then that team would not have been 2-11.

Do you hold all 25 year old quarterbacks to the same standard you're holding Vick to? Vick's contributed 1228 yards, scored 8 TDs, and thrown for just three interceptions. If that were any other 24 year old QB, you'd be talking about how he's finally coming into his own and looking like the stud you knew he would be. In fact, you're doing exactly that with Manning, who turns 25 next month, and has 1298 yards, 7 TDs, and thrown for 7 INTs over the same five game stretch.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

In relation to the Vick vs Eli debate.  It seems that in 2-3 years you will get your answer. 

I believe Vick will not hold Eli's shorts at that time.  Vick will continue to be a good running QB, a below average passing QB, that will get some wins but never make it into the elite category because of inconsistency.  His inconsistency will lead to more and more losses piling up over the next 2-3 years.  You are only seeing the begginning of it now.  Teams are getting faster on defense and I will take the pure pocket passer who can read the game and more consistently throw the ball to beat teams as opposed to relying on his legs.  Also, look at the number of games Vick has already missed in his young career and tell me why this trend won't continue??? Eli like his brother does not get hurt and play all the time because they rarely get hit.

Vick is a good QB but due to inconsistency will have trouble putting together consecutive winning seasons over and over again because of it.  Eli on the other hand will not.  Everyone discounts the durability of a player but I feel if Vick is injured and not playing because of it then he is just as much at fault for the loss.  This is why guys like Favre and P. Manning are great.  Because they don't get hurt.  Also, this has been mentioned before but if Eli are many other starting Qb's get inijured there teams would do just as bad as the Falcons did without Vick in there 2 years ago.  See what happened when Big Ben was out this year.  Remember those are back up QB's playing.  If Schaub was the QB then that team would not have been 2-11.

Do you hold all 25 year old quarterbacks to the same standard you're holding Vick to? Vick's contributed 1228 yards, scored 8 TDs, and thrown for just three interceptions. If that were any other 24 year old QB, you'd be talking about how he's finally coming into his own and looking like the stud you knew he would be. In fact, you're doing exactly that with Manning, who turns 25 next month, and has 1298 yards, 7 TDs, and thrown for 7 INTs over the same five game stretch.

Until Vick shows me any means of durability and consistency then I will take the pocket QB who is the same age with the last name Manning. Call it biast but Eli broke down not only ever game he played in last year but every single throw he made last year and tried to see what he can improve on and what types of defenses he will be facing etc etc. After hearing that, seeing his improvement in only his second year in the league, knowing his desire and work ethic to be the best just like his big brother; I will take Eli any day of the week. Vick is good and will be good and is arguably the greatest athlete to play football, but Eli will be a great QB that will be known as a better QB at the end of their careers.