Walker to Denver (1 Viewer)

[P Boy]

Could not disagree more strongly Psychology Kev. 

It IS by knowing how the NFL works, that makes Walker's situation understandable. The ONLY leverage a player has to get what they feel is an underserving contract addressed by an organization refusing to do so, is by holding out, or threatening a holdout.

Here we go again. You have demonstrated on multiple posts that you do not understand NFL contracts and the agreement that the owners hve with the NFLPA. Yet you still throw your opinion on this out there like it has any significant meaning.Can you dispute that GB had virtually no cap room last year to change any players' contracts, much less meet the high demands of Walker & Jackson? And can you dispute that GB had tons of cap room available before this year - precisely to sign some high impact FAs like Walker before he screwed himself royally? If so, please provide documentation.

If not, please listen & learn. GB managed their cap to a tee. Walker screwed himself out of some huge jack as well as some great job security. There's almost no way GB would resign him now & chance having to face Walker threatening to break his contract yet again, like he did this time. The only way I could see a renogiation between GB & Walker is if a sign-and-trade occurred, giving Walker's future team if he is traded some security, knowing Walkers now readily obvious history.

 

[jetsman]

no you dont get it, I just proved that the pack was hypocritical with Javon as they have been with others Apples and oranges dont apply here. pony Said:

First of all, GB has a policy of not renegotiating player contracts until they have 1 year or less left on the contract.

no mention of an exception for quarterbacks there that i can see. which is it a lie or not knowing the facts

Please cite an example of GB renegotiating a contract with a player with more year left on a contract where the renogotiation did not favor the salary cap position of the team.Favre renegotiating with more than 1 year left gave the team more cap room. If you want to take that in its strictest sense of renegotiating with more than 1 year left,

then you are right. However, I figured that we were all adults here & were going to

use a modicum of common sense in the discussion. Apparently I shouldn't assume anything here with some people.

Pony, listen I see your side of it, I'm just saying it is inconsistent to do it only one way, Javon came in last year strictly because the team leader went public and told javon to do so, the fact that favre then did not work behind the scenes to get Javon Some Protection was bound to cause a schism. If as I advocated Brett had worked to get javon an extension in spite of the injury......even at slightly below market value, Javon would have signed saving the team money when he comes back healthy. it was a risk for the front office I grant you, but a calculated one which would have healed the bad feeling and if Javon said no to the offer, at least then he'd know they dealt honestly with him.but since they didnt, he rightly feels disrespected

my two cents

 

[Mario Kart]

Pony, listen I see your side of it, I'm just saying it is inconsistent to do it only one way, Javon came in last year strictly because the team leader went public and told javon to do so, the fact that favre then did not work behind the scenes to get Javon Some Protection was bound to cause a schism. If as I advocated Brett had worked to get javon an extension in spite of the injury......even at slightly below market value, Javon would have signed saving the team money when he comes back healthy. it was a risk for the front office I grant you, but a calculated one which would have healed the bad feeling and if Javon said no to the offer, at least then he'd know they dealt honestly with him.

but since they didnt, he rightly feels disrespected

my two cents

I take it from this that you know for a fact Walker and Favre did not have conversations last year about his holdout on a personal basis. Unless you know someone in the Packers front office then you do not know what Favre did or did not do for Walker behind closed doors. Walker was not going to sign for anything other than big bucks last year. If you knew he would sign for a small amount why did he not make that known?

But without you knowing this as a fact and you just blindly speculating with nothing to back your thoughts that this is the case.

 

[Big Score]

Could not disagree more strongly Psychology Kev. 

It IS by knowing how the NFL works, that makes Walker's situation understandable. The ONLY leverage a player has to get what they feel is an underserving contract addressed by an organization refusing to do so, is by holding out, or threatening a holdout.

Here we go again. You have demonstrated on multiple posts that you do not understand NFL contracts and the agreement that the owners hve with the NFLPA. Yet you still throw your opinion on this out there like it has any significant meaning.

So players have some other super duper double top secret leverage besides holding out or threatenign to holdout that only the Great & Almighty Pony Boy is privvy to?Please share your secret knowledge Pony Boy. Not only am I interested, but I'm sure the NFLPA, players & their agents would like to know.

 

[Big Score]

Walker was not going to sign for anything other than big bucks last year.

He fired Rosendork and reported before it ever got to the $$$ stage. If you're being honest, you'll admit that you have no idea if your statement above has one iota of truth behind it.

 

[Mario Kart]

Walker was not going to sign for anything other than big bucks last year.

He fired Rosendork and reported before it ever got to the $$$ stage. If you're being honest, you'll admit that you have no idea if your statement above has one iota of truth behind it.

I take it from this that you know for a fact Walker & his agent did not first put out feelers to the Packers Front Office about having the contract addressed, before going public with this whole retirement thing?

If you know this for a fact, I agree with you that Walker has nobody but himself to blame.

But without you knowing this as a fact and you just blindly speculating with nothing to back your thoughts that this is the case, "then there are no words that can change your opinion... however wrong it may be".

I take it from this that you know for a fact Walker and Favre did not have conversations last year about his holdout on a personal basis.  Unless you know someone in the Packers front office then you do not know what Favre did or did not do for Walker behind closed doors.  Walker was not going to sign for anything other than big bucks last year.

If you knew he would sign for a small amount why did he not make that known? 

But without you knowing this as a fact and you just blindly speculating with nothing to back your thoughts that this is the case.

Anything look similar here? Nice to have your own statements used against you huh?

 

[jetsman]

since Brett did encourage him to come in publicly in the media, would it not be fair to stand up for javon the same way ? doesn't it make sense thats why Javon is so bitter towards the pack here. is that so big a leap. ReadChmuras commenys and Mckenzies.

even Wahle's cryptic remarks when he left.... it's more than idle speculation.....

can you admit there might be something to it. thats all I'm asking

 

[Big Score]

Walker was not going to sign for anything other than big bucks last year.

He fired Rosendork and reported before it ever got to the $$$ stage. If you're being honest, you'll admit that you have no idea if your statement above has one iota of truth behind it.

I take it from this that you know for a fact Walker & his agent did not first put out feelers to the Packers Front Office about having the contract addressed, before going public with this whole retirement thing?

If you know this for a fact, I agree with you that Walker has nobody but himself to blame.

But without you knowing this as a fact and you just blindly speculating with nothing to back your thoughts that this is the case, "then there are no words that can change your opinion... however wrong it may be".

I take it from this that you know for a fact Walker and Favre did not have conversations last year about his holdout on a personal basis.  Unless you know someone in the Packers front office then you do not know what Favre did or did not do for Walker behind closed doors.  Walker was not going to sign for anything other than big bucks last year.

If you knew he would sign for a small amount why did he not make that known? 

But without you knowing this as a fact and you just blindly speculating with nothing to back your thoughts that this is the case.

Anything look similar here? Nice to have your own statements used against you huh?

Psychology Kev,When you copied my format, you used it when replying to a post by jetsman, not me.

I give you an F for effort, as there was no originality.

I give you an F for execution, because you completely missed your mark.

I do give you an A for entertainment though.

 

[Mario Kart]

Psychology Kev,

When you copied my format, you used it when replying to a post by jetsman, not me.

I give you an A for effort.

I give you an A for execution.

I do give you an A for entertainment though.

I suggest you go back to the original post that I quoted. Those are your words and not jetsman. And, you continue to miss the point... even the mocking flew over your head.

 

[Big Score]

Psychology Kev,

When you copied my format, you used it when replying to a post by jetsman, not me. 

I give you an A for effort.

I give you an A for execution.

I do give you an A for entertainment though.

I suggest you go back to the original post that I quoted. Those are your words and not jetsman. And, you continue to miss the point... even the mocking flew over your head.

I know what my words were. I also recognize when somebody copies them. I also know when they're used and in what context.Look at the timestamps on the quotes you've used. You've gone and pulled quotes willy nilly from all over the place, mixed them altogether and created a Frankenstine.

Then you pat yourself on the back and say "See, look what I've done!"

Bravo, but I have no idea what your point is and I'm not sure you do either

 

[LuckyOne]

MOOMMMMMM, he's copying me again. Nuff said.

 

[cstu]

Could not disagree more strongly Psychology Kev.

It IS by knowing how the NFL works, that makes Walker's situation understandable. The ONLY leverage a player has to get what they feel is an underserving contract addressed by an organization refusing to do so, is by holding out, or threatening a holdout.

Here we go again. You have demonstrated on multiple posts that you do not understand NFL contracts and the agreement that the owners hve with the NFLPA. Yet you still throw your opinion on this out there like it has any significant meaning.Can you dispute that GB had virtually no cap room last year to change any players' contracts, much less meet the high demands of Walker & Jackson? And can you dispute that GB had tons of cap room available before this year - precisely to sign some high impact FAs like Walker before he screwed himself royally? If so, please provide documentation.

If not, please listen & learn. GB managed their cap to a tee. Walker screwed himself out of some huge jack as well as some great job security. There's almost no way GB would resign him now & chance having to face Walker threatening to break his contract yet again, like he did this time. The only way I could see a renogiation between GB & Walker is if a sign-and-trade occurred, giving Walker's future team if he is traded some security, knowing Walkers now readily obvious history.

The truth is that the Packers could have regotiated contracts to free up room for Walker, but they didn't want to. I hate hearing excuses like "no cap room" when it's obvious to anyone who knows how the salary cap works that it can be manipulated very easily. The Packers have their rules on contracts and that's their right, but it's also the right of their players to feel disrespected when they don't get contract extensions. Let the Packers keep losing their players, I'm sure the rest of the division is happy with it.

 

[Challenge Everything]

MOOMMMMMM, he's copying me again. Nuff said.

and @ Big Score

 

[jetsman]

BRAVO CSTU,

very concise and cuts to the heart of the matter, I dont think that Psychology Kev is totally off here, I just think he is missing the end result a bit. its nice to have rules and a plan to work from, and from this discussion it is clear that Ted Thompson does..... but its like going out to sea in a leaking boat, you can say its a new boat and it shouldnt be leaking all you want, sooner or later if you dont bail some water youre gonna sink.

no team no matter how principled the management can afford to lose Quality players year after year, who say they've been disrespected as have several current and former Packers, without suffering some loss of standing around the NFL. Sooner or later, whether its true or not, it becomes harder to replacethe losses and team chemistry suffers, and attrition finally wins the war

This is a Storied Franchise, and I root for them because I admire the underdog and the fans of Greenbay, but whether Psychology Kev wants to admit it or not, there is a problem here and Thompson needs to address it. Stonewalling Javon Walker, merely adds to the Problem.

 

[Mario Kart]

Could not disagree more strongly with jetsman.

The boat is upright and sailing along fine. If one current player on a team ranting like a baby allows people to come to the conclusion that the boat is sinking... then every NFL team boat is sinking. Renegotiating contracts is easier said than done by the way. Sharper did not want to renegotiate his last year and had he done so there would have been some of this mysterious money that jetsman and others are claiming could have gone to Walker. Where was Sharper when he could have helped himself and his supposed teammate out? Instead, Sharper wanted to play hardball and he thought he deserved the money even with two/three substandard years before.

Perfect scenario right there with Sharper. Quit using Favre as the scapegoat here because other players could have stepped up and renegotiated. Remember, it is still a players right to not renegotiate so saying the Packers could have tapped into other contracts is not giving the current FO any credit. The Packers played the cap game very well as we all can see from this years cap room.

And no, jetsman, there is no problem here. Thompson has been in Green Bay for all of what? 1 year. If people think there is a problem after or even before the first year I suggest most of you go on Ritalin for your ADD. Again, Walker screwed the pooch here plain and simple. Thompson is not cow-towing to players like Sherman did. There have been plenty of instances where a Packers player "got his money" but unfortunately those go by the wayside as the people who scream the loudest are the ones that are most often heard.

The players who have made complaints about the FO... where are they now? If not for Favre most of the offensive players would never have had a chance in the NFL to begin with let alone leave Green Bay and get their paycheck. Thank Favre for making those players and just because Walker was a 1st rounder does not mean he is going to be some super star. For now, thank Favre for Walker's great third year as well.

 

[Big Score]

MOOMMMMMM, he's copying me again.  Nuff said.

and @ Big Score

Oh I don't care that he's copying me. That's the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[jetsman]

Kev, you are in Denial, The problem existed before Thompson yes, but he exacerbated it. Look at how Arrington turned down the chance to go there, for what his camp said was more money.. But dont listen to me, let the Win/Loss record the next 5 years show you. Soon you'll be calling for Thompsons head, just remember you heard it here first.

 

[nygiants56]

IMO, Denver is waiting out the Ricky Williams saga otherwise they would have done this deal for Walker already, and cut Lelie..if Ricky's NOT suspended, they make a push to acquire him, then they look to acquire Walker..Denver has a boatload of 2nd and 3rd round picks, I think they throw one of each at Miami and GB..

There has to be a reason Shanny dropped out of the first round..maybe he thinks Walker and Williams are better than any rookie wr/rb combo that they can draft..

he's probably put-off by Lelie's poor performance as a pro, as well as Tatum Bell...

maybe Shanny goes in another direction,getting proven veterans for picks rather than rookies?

 

[P Boy]

no you dont get it, I just proved that the pack was hypocritical with Javon as they have been with others Apples and oranges dont apply here. pony Said:

First of all, GB has a policy of not renegotiating player contracts until they have 1 year or less left on the contract.

no mention of an exception for quarterbacks there that i can see. which is it a lie or not knowing the facts

Please cite an example of GB renegotiating a contract with a player with more year left on a contract where the renogotiation did not favor the salary cap position of the team.Favre renegotiating with more than 1 year left gave the team more cap room. If you want to take that in its strictest sense of renegotiating with more than 1 year left,

then you are right. However, I figured that we were all adults here & were going to

use a modicum of common sense in the discussion. Apparently I shouldn't assume anything here with some people.

Pony, listen I see your side of it, I'm just saying it is inconsistent to do it only one way, Javon came in last year strictly because the team leader went public and told javon to do so, the fact that favre then did not work behind the scenes to get Javon Some Protection was bound to cause a schism. If as I advocated Brett had worked to get javon an extension in spite of the injury......even at slightly below market value, Javon would have signed saving the team money when he comes back healthy. it was a risk for the front office I grant you, but a calculated one which would have healed the bad feeling and if Javon said no to the offer, at least then he'd know they dealt honestly with him.but since they didnt, he rightly feels disrespected

my two cents

Wow. How in the hell did we graduate into a civil discourse? I think Favre was looking out for the team as a whole. Walker had a contract - a contract whose length Walker insisted upon - and losing him to a hold out was going to hurt GB. If Walker was demanding protection, he either could have purchased or negotiated into his original contract an insurance policy from Lloyd's of London. You'll see some of the upper draft picks do this when they show up for mini-camps even though they haven't signed a contract yet.

You say Walker had a right to feel disrespected. I say Walker didn't honor the contract he willingly signed & took the signing bonus up front before he ever played a down in the NFL, and therefore he is completely out of line feeling disrespected. He could have hit his huge payday & he did himself in.

I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

 

[P Boy]

So players have some other super duper double top secret leverage besides holding out or threatenign to holdout that only the Great & Almighty Pony Boy is privvy to?Please share your secret knowledge Pony Boy. Not only am I interested, but I'm sure the NFLPA, players & their agents would like to know.

There's nothing secret about what's going on here. It's been explained to you numerous times, but because you feel the teams in the NFL have some kind of incredibly "unfair" advantage over players, you're convinced that players are getting screwed, so you can rationalize, at least to yourself, hold outs.That you haven't understood this stuff the first few times makes me completely confident you won't understand it if it is explained yet again to you.

 

[P Boy]

Perfect scenario right there with Sharper. Quit using Favre as the scapegoat here because other players could have stepped up and renegotiated. Remember, it is still a players right to not renegotiate so saying the Packers could have tapped into other contracts is not giving the current FO any credit. The Packers played the cap game very well as we all can see from this years cap room.

Save your time, Kev. Some people here think it is an incredible coincidence that GB has tons of cap room this year when they had significant contracts coming up to resign & rengotiate. They're convinced GB got that room by screwing over players rather than through very careful planning & timing that started years ago.You won't convince them otherwise, no matter how much evidence you offer - and because apparently you weren't sitting in a supermarket or a bar talking with the players face-to-face the facts have no merit to them.

 

[jetsman]

no you dont get it, I just proved that the pack was hypocritical with Javon as they have been with others Apples and oranges dont apply here. pony Said:

First of all, GB has a policy of not renegotiating player contracts until they have 1 year or less left on the contract.

no mention of an exception for quarterbacks there that i can see. which is it a lie or not knowing the facts

Please cite an example of GB renegotiating a contract with a player with more year left on a contract where the renogotiation did not favor the salary cap position of the team.Favre renegotiating with more than 1 year left gave the team more cap room. If you want to take that in its strictest sense of renegotiating with more than 1 year left,

then you are right. However, I figured that we were all adults here & were going to

use a modicum of common sense in the discussion. Apparently I shouldn't assume anything here with some people.

Pony, listen I see your side of it, I'm just saying it is inconsistent to do it only one way, Javon came in last year strictly because the team leader went public and told javon to do so, the fact that favre then did not work behind the scenes to get Javon Some Protection was bound to cause a schism. If as I advocated Brett had worked to get javon an extension in spite of the injury......even at slightly below market value, Javon would have signed saving the team money when he comes back healthy. it was a risk for the front office I grant you, but a calculated one which would have healed the bad feeling and if Javon said no to the offer, at least then he'd know they dealt honestly with him.but since they didnt, he rightly feels disrespected

my two cents

Wow. How in the hell did we graduate into a civil discourse? I think Favre was looking out for the team as a whole. Walker had a contract - a contract whose length Walker insisted upon - and losing him to a hold out was going to hurt GB. If Walker was demanding protection, he either could have purchased or negotiated into his original contract an insurance policy from Lloyd's of London. You'll see some of the upper draft picks do this when they show up for mini-camps even though they haven't signed a contract yet.

You say Walker had a right to feel disrespected. I say Walker didn't honor the contract he willingly signed & took the signing bonus up front before he ever played a down in the NFL, and therefore he is completely out of line feeling disrespected. He could have hit his huge payday & he did himself in.

I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

I think Favre was looking out for the team as a whole.See pony thats the fly in the ointment, right there follow me here ok, I've been a huge Brett Favre fan for a long time, won me several fantasy bowl championships almost single handedly. as a result Ive watched the Pack for a while. He has always been viewed as a team Player and a leader, awhile back, I had the opportunity to have to deal with Antonio Freeman in a situation involving My job, which I cant detail for reasons that involve confidentiality, the point is over the course of working with him I found out some things about my hero that I wished I hadnt learned.

Since that time Ive watched how players he was once close to like Mark Chmura and Darren Sharper have come out critical of Brett, and Javon Walker to his credit has kept his feekings of betrayal out of the Press, however much of his Displeasure has to do with his belief that Favre made certain statements in the media last year that were detrimental to Javon's situation and broke an unwritten rule that Team mates support one another because next year it could be you seeking a new deal

If Brett is Looking out for the team as a whole as you say, Why has he not told the team he is definitely coming back....? why has he played it this way this offseason.

I realize I am being vague here but I trust you are wise enough to understand that in certain Professions especially around this tme of year, disclosure is not allowed.

All I'm saying is dig deeper.....all the evidence is there but just Like me you wouldnt see it unless you were told where to look.

 

[Challenge Everything]

I think Favre was looking out for the team as a whole.

See pony thats the fly in the ointment, right there follow me here ok, I've been a huge Brett Favre fan for a long time, won me several fantasy bowl championships almost single handedly. as a result Ive watched the Pack for a while. He has always been viewed as a team Player and a leader, awhile back, I had the opportunity to have to deal with Antonio Freeman in a situation involving My job, which I cant detail for reasons that involve confidentiality, the point is over the course of working with him I found out some things about my hero that I wished I hadnt learned.

Since that time Ive watched how players he was once close to like Mark Chmura and Darren Sharper have come out critical of Brett, and Javon Walker to his credit has kept his feekings of betrayal out of the Press, however much of his Displeasure has to do with his belief that Favre made certain statements in the media last year that were detrimental to Javon's situation and broke an unwritten rule that Team mates support one another because next year it could be you seeking a new deal

If Brett is Looking out for the team as a whole as you say, Why has he not told the team he is definitely coming back....? why has he played it this way this offseason.

I realize I am being vague here but I trust you are wise enough to understand that in certain Professions especially around this tme of year, disclosure is not allowed.

All I'm saying is dig deeper.....all the evidence is there but just Like me you wouldnt see it unless you were told where to look.

First off, this is a funny thread. Second, the last paragraph concerning Favre and next year. How do you know that he has not told management what his plans are? Just because the media has not been notified does not make his decision anymore fact or fiction than it already is. And, finally, jetsman... what is up with the constant capitalization of certain words in your posts? I am no english teacher or anything but random capitalization is not proper english.

 

[Big Score]

So players have some other super duper double top secret leverage besides holding out or threatenign to holdout that only the Great & Almighty Pony Boy is privvy to?

Please share your secret knowledge Pony Boy. Not only am I interested, but I'm sure the NFLPA, players & their agents would like to know.

There's nothing secret about what's going on here. It's been explained to you numerous times, but because you feel the teams in the NFL have some kind of incredibly "unfair" advantage over players, you're convinced that players are getting screwed, so you can rationalize, at least to yourself, hold outs.That you haven't understood this stuff the first few times makes me completely confident you won't understand it if it is explained yet again to you.

You didn't answer the question.I have said several times that the only recourse an NFL player, who (while still under contract) feels their renumeration is not commiserate with their contributions, the only leverage they have is to stage a holdout or use the threat of a holdout.

To borrow from Maurile.

A player has a right to hold out (subject to any contractual penalties), and doing so is his only leverage.

Is there any argument to this? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[MrPack]

If Walker had produced the numbers Ward and Johnson have over the past several seasons (as opposed to one standout season) it would be much easier for the Packers to follow suit.

Your reasoning above seems to conflict with your reasoning below.

Thompson will have failed badly to get a positive return for one of the few legitimate talents on the team.

The position on what draft pick the Packers should hold out for if dealing Walker, is also conflicting.With one year remaining, he's not good enough to sign long term , but he is good enough to be worth at least 2nd rounder if not more?

That doesn't make sense.

Thompson has bungled the Walker situation badly. No doubt in my mind.

:whoosh:

 

[MrPack]

pony boy has absolutely no credence here, the only reason green bay did anything in the last 15 years is that they grabbed Brett Favre. and were lucky enough to get Ron Wolf to be their GM If the Jets Ownership Had moved up two Spots as Wolf had suggested and gotten him ahead of atlanta, Greenbay would have been Second Division all Along.

What Pony can cant see since his nose is so far up thomsons Posterior is that no team in the NFL has had as many star players come out so vociferously in so short a period with basically the same complaint. the players all say they arent respected, thay all say they are treated as if they arent valued, and they dont ever want to play there any longer

All teams have players who say things to get better contracts only a fool would deny this, but how many have had as many pro Bowl Caliber performers leave in so short a time. and how many have done so spewing such anger. remember walker came back in camp last year at the urging of team Leader Favre and he was hurt. where was Brett then, did he come out publicly and say the team take care of Javon ? where is Brett now. why he's sitting hom holding his own little powerplay for which he castrated Javon and Mackenzie for previously.

Pony can say what he wants here, I have no axe to grind. I just look at how many pro bowl players have come and gone over the past 5 years and how many leave on very bad terms and say whats the corelation. If he can name another team with as much turnover of pro bowlers in 5 years let him produce it.... even ex packers who have retired like Chmura and Levens have spoken out about this, whats so hard to see.

personally I think Ponys nose is so far up Thompsons that he cant see the obvious

double :whoosh:

 

[P Boy]

So players have some other super duper double top secret leverage besides holding out or threatenign to holdout that only the Great & Almighty Pony Boy is privvy to?

Please share your secret knowledge Pony Boy. Not only am I interested, but I'm sure the NFLPA, players & their agents would like to know.

There's nothing secret about what's going on here. It's been explained to you numerous times, but because you feel the teams in the NFL have some kind of incredibly "unfair" advantage over players, you're convinced that players are getting screwed, so you can rationalize, at least to yourself, hold outs.That you haven't understood this stuff the first few times makes me completely confident you won't understand it if it is explained yet again to you.

You didn't answer the question.I have said several times that the only recourse an NFL player, who (while still under contract) feels their renumeration is not commiserate with their contributions, the only leverage they have is to stage a holdout or use the threat of a holdout.

And I've responded each time you proposed this is that the player is breaching his contract when he holds out - yet you don't seem to comprehend this.You don't seem to understand that the team takes a huge risk by paying a signing bonus before a player ever plays a down for a team, and that the trade off for the risk the team is taking by paying the signing bonus is the exchange of a number of years of contracted service by the player for the team.

When a player is a bust, the team doesn't get to recover any of its signing bonus. When a player outperforms his contract, by the same logic the player doesn't get to change the terms of the contract for additional compensation.

It is equitable risk on both sides, as determined by the league, the teams, the players, and the players' agents.

Now I've wasted yet another 5 minutes reiterating the same concept that I've explained a few times before that you just can't seem to grasp.

 

[MrPack]

Pony Boy spelled out everything that anyone needs to know about the subject.  Those that have read his post and still post opposite comments are failing to see how the NFL works.  We have to simply accept that those posters who do not get it... simply do not get it.  Pony Boy and others have expressed the true opinion of the matter quite bluntly.

Could not disagree more strongly Psychology Kev. It IS by knowing how the NFL works, that makes Walker's situation understandable. The ONLY leverage a player has to get what they feel is an underserving contract addressed by an organization refusing to do so, is by holding out, or threatening a holdout.

Comparing any WR to Walker's situation is lame and an attempt to make a valid point from an invalid scenario. 

This is just too ridiculous for words.

Walker asked and received the contract AND money he wanted in his rookie year. If he knew he was going to be a super star then he should have accepted the original offer from the Packers. Walker is the one who goofed up here... no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Accept that fact.

Most teams try to re-sign their young players for the long-term when they outplay their rookie contract. Walker was asking for what most young Pro Bowl players get but the Packers felt content to take advantage of his low salary on his rookie contract. That's their option, but it's not a good way to keep players from leaving in free agency. It's only human nature for people to want to get paid what they think they are worth.Let me put it this way - do you think that LT would be a Charger today if the management told him they wanted him to play out his original contract before re-signing him?

Did LT get a veteran contract as a rookie before even playing one snap like Walker did?The ignorance in these Walker threads is just incredible.

 

[MrPack]

Pony Boy spelled out everything that anyone needs to know about the subject.  Those that have read his post and still post opposite comments are failing to see how the NFL works.  We have to simply accept that those posters who do not get it... simply do not get it.  Pony Boy and others have expressed the true opinion of the matter quite bluntly.

Could not disagree more strongly Psychology Kev. It IS by knowing how the NFL works, that makes Walker's situation understandable. The ONLY leverage a player has to get what they feel is an underserving contract addressed by an organization refusing to do so, is by holding out, or threatening a holdout.

Comparing any WR to Walker's situation is lame and an attempt to make a valid point from an invalid scenario. 

This is just too ridiculous for words.

Walker asked and received the contract AND money he wanted in his rookie year. If he knew he was going to be a super star then he should have accepted the original offer from the Packers. Walker is the one who goofed up here... no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Accept that fact.

Most teams try to re-sign their young players for the long-term when they outplay their rookie contract. Walker was asking for what most young Pro Bowl players get but the Packers felt content to take advantage of his low salary on his rookie contract. That's their option, but it's not a good way to keep players from leaving in free agency. It's only human nature for people to want to get paid what they think they are worth.Let me put it this way - do you think that LT would be a Charger today if the management told him they wanted him to play out his original contract before re-signing him?

Did LT get a veteran contract as a rookie before even playing one snap like Walker did?The ignorance in these Walker threads is just incredible.

:crickets:

 

[Big Score]

If Walker had produced the numbers Ward and Johnson have over the past several seasons (as opposed to one standout season) it would be much easier for the Packers to follow suit.

Your reasoning above seems to conflict with your reasoning below.

Thompson will have failed badly to get a positive return for one of the few legitimate talents on the team.

The position on what draft pick the Packers should hold out for if dealing Walker, is also conflicting.With one year remaining, he's not good enough to sign long term , but he is good enough to be worth at least 2nd rounder if not more?

That doesn't make sense.

Thompson has bungled the Walker situation badly. No doubt in my mind.

:whoosh:

#1)If Thompson keeps Walker, he sits for 10 games, reports for 6 and becomes a UFA.

A} He then signs elsewhere in 2007 for the $$$ he's after & the Pack get no compensation.

~ or ~

B} The Pack Franchise Walker in 2007 and he gets the avg pay of the Top 5 WR's. End result, Walker gets the $$$ he wants.

(Possibly the Pack work a trade while he's under the Franchise tag, but considering Edge was Franchised last year and the Colts let it be known he could be had in a trade for as little as a 2nd, yet got no takers, I don't see Walker as better trade value next year...especially if he only plays 6 games this year)

In either of the above two scenarios, the Pack lose Walker for 10 games this year. Not good!

#2)

Thompson trades Walker this year. His asking price is a 2nd. Interested teams begin negotiations with Thompson. Thompson says he's worth a 2nd because he's so talented. Teams ask Thompson if he's soooo talented, why didn't he sign Walker long term earlier this year? Thompson says only 1 year of real production, beneficiary of Favre and major knee injury. Teams say he's not worth a 2nd then.

Catch 22.

The way Thompson has handled the Walker situation, I think he's painted himself into a very small corner with little wiggle room.

Now if Thompson does manage to trade Walker for a decent 2nd, then I reverse my opinion on his handling of the Walker situation.

 

[Big Score]

So players have some other super duper double top secret leverage besides holding out or threatenign to holdout that only the Great & Almighty Pony Boy is privvy to?

Please share your secret knowledge Pony Boy. Not only am I interested, but I'm sure the NFLPA, players & their agents would like to know.

There's nothing secret about what's going on here. It's been explained to you numerous times, but because you feel the teams in the NFL have some kind of incredibly "unfair" advantage over players, you're convinced that players are getting screwed, so you can rationalize, at least to yourself, hold outs.That you haven't understood this stuff the first few times makes me completely confident you won't understand it if it is explained yet again to you.

You didn't answer the question.I have said several times that the only recourse an NFL player, who (while still under contract) feels their renumeration is not commiserate with their contributions, the only leverage they have is to stage a holdout or use the threat of a holdout.

And I've responded each time you proposed this is that the player is breaching his contract when he holds out - yet you don't seem to comprehend this.You don't seem to understand that the team takes a huge risk by paying a signing bonus before a player ever plays a down for a team, and that the trade off for the risk the team is taking by paying the signing bonus is the exchange of a number of years of contracted service by the player for the team.

When a player is a bust, the team doesn't get to recover any of its signing bonus. When a player outperforms his contract, by the same logic the player doesn't get to change the terms of the contract for additional compensation.

It is equitable risk on both sides, as determined by the league, the teams, the players, and the players' agents.

Now I've wasted yet another 5 minutes reiterating the same concept that I've explained a few times before that you just can't seem to grasp.

Pony Boy,A player holdout, or the threat of a player holdout is the only leverage a player/agent has in addressing a supposedly inequitable existing contract.

There is a reason why the CBA (as signed by both the NFLPA & Owners) has strict language and tiered monetary penalties/fines addressing player holdouts while under contract, along with the player contracts themselves also having language for the possibility of player holdouts.

It is a known, accepted (though not well received) and quite common way of doing business within the NFL.

You can go round & round in circles as many times as you like, but the fact player holdouts have, do and will in the future, continue to occur and is covered by very specific language contained in both the CBA & player contracts, will not change.

Why you are unable to grasp this simple & well established concept, is beyond me?

 

[Bizkiteer]

At the rate he's gone, he (Thompson) will be lucky to get Lelie and a mid round pick.

 

[Big Score]

Pony Boy spelled out everything that anyone needs to know about the subject.  Those that have read his post and still post opposite comments are failing to see how the NFL works.  We have to simply accept that those posters who do not get it... simply do not get it.  Pony Boy and others have expressed the true opinion of the matter quite bluntly.

Could not disagree more strongly Psychology Kev. It IS by knowing how the NFL works, that makes Walker's situation understandable. The ONLY leverage a player has to get what they feel is an underserving contract addressed by an organization refusing to do so, is by holding out, or threatening a holdout.

Comparing any WR to Walker's situation is lame and an attempt to make a valid point from an invalid scenario. 

This is just too ridiculous for words.

Walker asked and received the contract AND money he wanted in his rookie year. If he knew he was going to be a super star then he should have accepted the original offer from the Packers. Walker is the one who goofed up here... no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Accept that fact.

Most teams try to re-sign their young players for the long-term when they outplay their rookie contract. Walker was asking for what most young Pro Bowl players get but the Packers felt content to take advantage of his low salary on his rookie contract. That's their option, but it's not a good way to keep players from leaving in free agency. It's only human nature for people to want to get paid what they think they are worth.Let me put it this way - do you think that LT would be a Charger today if the management told him they wanted him to play out his original contract before re-signing him?

Did LT get a veteran contract as a rookie before even playing one snap like Walker did?The ignorance in these Walker threads is just incredible.

Walker did not get a veteran contract as a rookie. Walker, Javon - Rookie Contract to 2004

Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary 2004 Packers $ 390,000 $ 0 $ 1,500 $ 391,500 2003 Packers $ 300,000 $ 1,300,000 $ 2,000 $ 1,602,000 2002 Packers $ 545,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 0 $ 3,545,000 Now this is a vetran contract

Harrison, Marvin - 2000 to 2004

Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary 2004 Colts $ 4,559,765 $ 6,000,000 $ 400 $ 10,560,165 2003 Colts $ 4,500,000 $ 0 $ 0 $ 4,500,000 2002 Colts $ 525,000 $ 2,475,000 $ 0 $ 3,000,000 2001 Colts $ 500,000 $ 0 $ 640 $ 2,885,230 2000 Colts $ 440,000 $ 2,647,300 $ 1,000 $ 3,088,300 Notice the difference?

 

[P Boy]

[ Notice the difference?

Yeah. I see that Walker got a hell of a lot bigger signing bonus in 2002 than a proven stud at that time like Marvin Harrison, despite Walker not having taken one friggin' snap in the NFL.He really got screwed in that deal, alright...

 

[CletiusMaximus]

We'll know Denver is serious about Walker when they bring him in for a physical (unless they did it secretly and kept it out of the press completely). No way they give up Lelie or any draft picks for Walker without looking at his knee.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

In addition to ignoring league contracts in general, and the Walker got a special accomodation specifically, certain posters here are insisting that if Walker leaves the Packers by playing out the string this year that they will recieve NO compensation. My understanding of the league is that If free agents leave without having been marked as franchise players that the league evaluates the relative loss and compensates teams accordingly. That is the whole nature of compensatory picks. Typically when star players and high draft picks move on they generate compensation of 3rd round choices or greater. (usually no higher than 3rd round but frequently more than one for true quality players) Given then that Walker will generate a third rounder no matter what why would Thompson not set his negotiating line higher?

 

[T Man]

In addition to ignoring league contracts in general, and the Walker got a special accomodation specifically, certain posters here are insisting that if Walker leaves the Packers by playing out the string this year that they will recieve NO compensation. My understanding of the league is that If free agents leave without having been marked as franchise players that the league evaluates the relative loss and compensates teams accordingly. That is the whole nature of compensatory picks. Typically when star players and high draft picks move on they generate compensation of 3rd round choices or greater. (usually no higher than 3rd round but frequently more than one for true quality players) Given then that Walker will generate a third rounder no matter what why would Thompson not set his negotiating line higher?

I see your point, but aren't compensatory picks evaluated using fourmain points: (1) performance season prior; (2) salary paid by new team; (3) performance for new team: and, (4) the net loss between FAs signed and lost???IF so, then Walker's lack of performance would limit the compensation. Plus, the amount of FA's lost and signed would impact these picks. So its not guaranteed they would get a 3rd rounder. But they should get something.

 

[Big Score]

[

Notice the difference?

Yeah. I see that Walker got a hell of a lot bigger signing bonus in 2002 than a proven stud at that time like Marvin Harrison, despite Walker not having taken one friggin' snap in the NFL.He really got screwed in that deal, alright...

 

[MrPack]

[

Notice the difference?

Yeah. I see that Walker got a hell of a lot bigger signing bonus in 2002 than a proven stud at that time like Marvin Harrison, despite Walker not having taken one friggin' snap in the NFL.He really got screwed in that deal, alright...

Your ignorance is really showing through bigtime here Big. Harrison had been a Pro Bowler in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002....... and his contract was less than Walkers in 2002, and Walker had yet to even take a snap.Keep rolling your eyes when you are beat down. it's rather funny.

 

[P Boy]

Your ignorance is really showing through bigtime here Big. Harrison had been a Pro Bowler in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002....... and his contract was less than Walkers in 2002, and Walker had yet to even take a snap.

Keep rolling your eyes when you are beat down. it's rather funny.

I think his response & the various smilies used shows that he realizes that.

 

[Big Score]

[

Notice the difference?

Yeah. I see that Walker got a hell of a lot bigger signing bonus in 2002 than a proven stud at that time like Marvin Harrison, despite Walker not having taken one friggin' snap in the NFL.He really got screwed in that deal, alright...

Your ignorance is really showing through bigtime here Big. Harrison had been a Pro Bowler in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002....... and his contract was less than Walkers in 2002, and Walker had yet to even take a snap.Keep rolling your eyes when you are beat down. it's rather funny.

So let me see if I've got this right?You're comparing the initial 1st round signing bonus of Walker's rookie contract, to what Harrison received while in the second to last year of his contract?

Is that right?

OK...So Walker's 1st round rookie signing bonus was $525,000 more than what Harrison got in the second to last year of an existing contract.

Woop de freakin' Doo.

Now what happens when you compare the initial signing bonus of Walkers rookie contract, to the initial signing bonus of Harrison's new veteran contract signed in 2004?

Walker, Javon - Rookie Contract initial signing bonus

Year Team      Base Salary  Sign Bonus    Other Bonus   Total Salary  2002 Packers   $ 545,000    $ 3,000,000   $ 0           $ 3,545,000 Harrison, Marvin - Veteran Contract initial signing bonus

Year Team    Base Salary    Sign Bonus    Other Bonus  Total Salary 2004 Colts   $ 4,559,765    $ 6,000,000   $ 400        $ 10,560,165Oops!You better believe I'm and when you're saying Walker's rookie contract = a veterans contract.

But you spin it MrPack & Pony Boy....I say spin it baby!

Edit: Couldn't leave out PB, that wouldn't have been fair!

 

[Big Score]

Your ignorance is really showing through bigtime here Big. Harrison had been a Pro Bowler in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002....... and his contract was less than Walkers in 2002, and Walker had yet to even take a snap.

Keep rolling your eyes when you are beat down. it's rather funny.

I think his response & the various smilies used shows that he realizes that.

See above

 

[Big Score]

IMO, Denver is waiting out the Ricky Williams saga otherwise they would have done this deal for Walker already, and cut Lelie..if Ricky's NOT suspended, they make a push to acquire him, then they look to acquire Walker..Denver has a boatload of 2nd and 3rd round picks, I think they throw one of each at Miami and GB..

Back on topic...I think nygiants56 post has merit

 

[Big Score]

My understanding of the league is that If free agents leave without having been marked as franchise players that the league evaluates the relative loss and compensates teams accordingly.

Ditkaless Wonders,FYI on compensatory draft picks and how it works.

COMPENSATORY DRAFT PICKS:

Compensation awarded by the league to teams who lost more UFAs than they signed. Compensation is in the form of extra draft picks added to the end of rounds three through seven. The quantity of picks is equivalent to the difference of UFAs signed to UFAs lost. For example, if a team loses 4 UFAs and signs 1 UFA, they will receive three Compensatory Selections. The value of the picks is determined by the difference of the contracts signed by the players lost and those acquired.

Typically when star players and high draft picks move on they generate compensation of 3rd round choices or greater. (usually no higher than 3rd round but frequently more than one for true quality players) Given then that Walker will generate a third rounder no matter what why would Thompson not set his negotiating line higher?

Lots of inaccurate & incorrect information here Ditkaless Wonders.There is absolutely NO circumstance where Walker generates a higher darft pick than after the last pick of the third round, via compensatory pick.

Also, depending on how many FA's the Pack lose ~ vs ~ how many FA's the Pack signs, they very well could end up with NOTHING for Walker

The highest possible compensatory pick is the 31st of the third round (91st overall). If a team has signed an equal number or more UFAs than it lost, no "Compensatory Picks" are awarded.

Free Agent Definitions