Warner punching his ticket... (1 Viewer)

[Aardvarks]

One of 5 QBs all-time with 50+ 300-yd games. (Marino, Fouts, Favre, Manning)

One of 2 QBs all-time with 13,000 yds for 2 diff. teams (Tarkenton)

Around 30,000 career pass yds after today, moving into Top-30 all-time

3 Super Bowls, 1 Ring

2 NFL MVP awards in 1999 and 2001

Super Bowl MVP XXXIV

8.0 career yds/attempt, tied for 4th all-time

93.5 career Passer rating, 3rd all-time behind Manning & Young

65.6% career Completions, 2nd all-time behind Pennington

Record for highest comp % in a single game - 92.3% vs. Jags in '09

Quarterbacked 3 consecutive 500-point offenses in St. Louis (Greatest Show on Turf), an NFL team record

#1 all-time passing yardage in Super Bowl with 414 yds in XXXIV

#2 all-time passing yardage in Super Bowl with 377 yds in XLIII

#3 all-time passing yardage in Super Bowl with 365 yds in XXXVI

Joined John Elway, Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, and Tom Brady as the only 5 QBs to throw a TD in 3 SBs

This year will be his 4th 4000-yd season (not 3000, but 4000....)

At the end of this year he will be top-25 in career TD passes.

If he plays next year he could end around #18 or #19

(and remember he didn't play until he was 27 yrs old)

Add the off-field character, on-field competitiveness, fighting back from injuries, etc

There's probably a bunch of stats and records I'm leaving out, but no matter-

Kurt Warner is going in the HOF. There's no question.

 

[BINGBING]

Brenda, is that you?

 

[PantherPower]

he's a lock, no doubt about it.

 

[FUBAR]

One of 5 QBs all-time with 50+ 300-yd games. (Marino, Fouts, Favre, Manning)

One of 2 QBs all-time with 13,000 yds for 2 diff. teams (Tarkenton)

Around 30,000 career pass yds after today, moving into Top-30 all-time

He's behind Kerry Collins in yardage and TDs.He's had about 5 great years and disappeared for a 5 year stretch.

He's experienced a high level of success when he had Marshall Faulk, Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald... IOW, when he's surrounded by true HOF talent.

I like the guy but he's not a lock IMO for the HOF. Remember, HOF is based on a career.

 

[jon_mx]

One of 5 QBs all-time with 50+ 300-yd games. (Marino, Fouts, Favre, Manning)

One of 2 QBs all-time with 13,000 yds for 2 diff. teams (Tarkenton)

Around 30,000 career pass yds after today, moving into Top-30 all-time

He's behind Kerry Collins in yardage and TDs.He's had about 5 great years and disappeared for a 5 year stretch.

He's experienced a high level of success when he had Marshall Faulk, Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald... IOW, when he's surrounded by true HOF talent.

I like the guy but he's not a lock IMO for the HOF. Remember, HOF is based on a career.

That is the great part of the Warner story, he spent his first five years packing grocercies and playing arena football. There are a lot of QB's in the hall of fame who don't have one year as good as any of those. Naturally his career totals took a hit.

 

[Chaka]

One of 5 QBs all-time with 50+ 300-yd games. (Marino, Fouts, Favre, Manning)

One of 2 QBs all-time with 13,000 yds for 2 diff. teams (Tarkenton)

Around 30,000 career pass yds after today, moving into Top-30 all-time

He's behind Kerry Collins in yardage and TDs.He's had about 5 great years and disappeared for a 5 year stretch.

He's experienced a high level of success when he had Marshall Faulk, Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald... IOW, when he's surrounded by true HOF talent.

I like the guy but he's not a lock IMO for the HOF. Remember, HOF is based on a career.

That is the great part of the Warner story, he spent his first five years packing grocercies and playing arena football. There are a lot of QB's in the hall of fame who don't have one year as good as any of those. Naturally his career totals took a hit.

He'll get in for sure but it is an interesting point because you have to imagine that if Vinny Testeverde were surrounded by the talent that Warner was with StL & Ari that he would be a lock too.But them's the breaks.

 

[stuckinthemuck]

If you're voting for Kurt Warner then you're voting for Terrell Davis. It's an interesting argument to make but, at this point, I think Warner is still on the outside looking in. He needs another two years of top level play to make his case.

 

[joetrow]

I'm with the OP, but it would deffinetly make his case stronger if the Cards could make another deep playoff push/superbowl apperance.

 

[bentley]

One of 5 QBs all-time with 50+ 300-yd games. (Marino, Fouts, Favre, Manning)

One of 2 QBs all-time with 13,000 yds for 2 diff. teams (Tarkenton)

Around 30,000 career pass yds after today, moving into Top-30 all-time

He's behind Kerry Collins in yardage and TDs.He's had about 5 great years and disappeared for a 5 year stretch.

He's experienced a high level of success when he had Marshall Faulk, Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald... IOW, when he's surrounded by true HOF talent.

I like the guy but he's not a lock IMO for the HOF. Remember, HOF is based on a career.

That is the great part of the Warner story, he spent his first five years packing grocercies and playing arena football. There are a lot of QB's in the hall of fame who don't have one year as good as any of those. Naturally his career totals took a hit.

He's talking about the five years that he sucked in between StL and Arizona. Those are the years that threaten his HOF chances. The other stuff is just a good story.

 

[shred]

One of 5 QBs all-time with 50+ 300-yd games. (Marino, Fouts, Favre, Manning)

One of 2 QBs all-time with 13,000 yds for 2 diff. teams (Tarkenton)

Around 30,000 career pass yds after today, moving into Top-30 all-time

He's behind Kerry Collins in yardage and TDs.He's had about 5 great years and disappeared for a 5 year stretch.

He's experienced a high level of success when he had Marshall Faulk, Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald... IOW, when he's surrounded by true HOF talent.

I like the guy but he's not a lock IMO for the HOF. Remember, HOF is based on a career.

Or you can say because of his great play he brought the best out of the talent you have listed. He's got the stats, he's got the character, and he's got the hardware. I have no doubt that Warner is going to the HOF. He was a lock after last year.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

If you're voting for Kurt Warner then you're voting for Terrell Davis.

Sure, if Terrell Davis recovered from his injuries and proceeded to put up good-but-not-great stats for the next 4-5 seasons.

 

[David Dodds]

I think Favre, Manning, Brady and Brees will make Warner an after-thought when he can be voted in. I think he needs a few more seasons at a high level to get in personally.

 

[FUBAR]

One of 5 QBs all-time with 50+ 300-yd games. (Marino, Fouts, Favre, Manning)

One of 2 QBs all-time with 13,000 yds for 2 diff. teams (Tarkenton)

Around 30,000 career pass yds after today, moving into Top-30 all-time

He's behind Kerry Collins in yardage and TDs.He's had about 5 great years and disappeared for a 5 year stretch.

He's experienced a high level of success when he had Marshall Faulk, Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald... IOW, when he's surrounded by true HOF talent.

I like the guy but he's not a lock IMO for the HOF. Remember, HOF is based on a career.

Or you can say because of his great play he brought the best out of the talent you have listed. He's got the stats, he's got the character, and he's got the hardware. I have no doubt that Warner is going to the HOF. He was a lock after last year.

He might have made them slightly better but each of those 5 experienced a high level of success without Warner. Kurt has proven he can't succeed without elite talent around him. He's a great story and seems to be a great guy, but I won't vote for him if he hangs it up this year.

 

[Chaka]

If you're voting for Kurt Warner then you're voting for Terrell Davis. It's an interesting argument to make but, at this point, I think Warner is still on the outside looking in. He needs another two years of top level play to make his case.

Not really.

 

[Instinctive]

He might have made them slightly better but each of those 5 experienced a high level of success without Warner. Kurt has proven he can't succeed without elite talent around him. He's a great story and seems to be a great guy, but I won't vote for him if he hangs it up this year.

When did he prove that? When he broke his hand with the Giants and was replaced by their highly touted number 1 draft pick Eli Manning?

 

[GroveDiesel]

One of 5 QBs all-time with 50+ 300-yd games. (Marino, Fouts, Favre, Manning)

One of 2 QBs all-time with 13,000 yds for 2 diff. teams (Tarkenton)

Around 30,000 career pass yds after today, moving into Top-30 all-time

He's behind Kerry Collins in yardage and TDs.He's had about 5 great years and disappeared for a 5 year stretch.

He's experienced a high level of success when he had Marshall Faulk, Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald... IOW, when he's surrounded by true HOF talent.

I like the guy but he's not a lock IMO for the HOF. Remember, HOF is based on a career.

Or you can say because of his great play he brought the best out of the talent you have listed. He's got the stats, he's got the character, and he's got the hardware. I have no doubt that Warner is going to the HOF. He was a lock after last year.

I'm not sure that us Internet geeks' votes count for a whole lot anyway.He might have made them slightly better but each of those 5 experienced a high level of success without Warner. Kurt has proven he can't succeed without elite talent around him.

He's a great story and seems to be a great guy, but I won't vote for him if he hangs it up this year.

 

[FUBAR]

He might have made them slightly better but each of those 5 experienced a high level of success without Warner. Kurt has proven he can't succeed without elite talent around him. He's a great story and seems to be a great guy, but I won't vote for him if he hangs it up this year.

When did he prove that? When he broke his hand with the Giants and was replaced by their highly touted number 1 draft pick Eli Manning?

that must be it. couldn't be how he actually played for those 5 years.

 

[Tau837]

If you're voting for Kurt Warner then you're voting for Terrell Davis.

I disagree with this.1. Warner's best seasons were more impressive than Davis's.2. Warner has 2 MVP awards to Davis's 1.3. Warner ranks high in more statistical categories... really, Davis only ranks high in rushing yards per game.4. The strongest thing about Davis's case is his postseason accomplishments, but Warner's postseason accomplishments are even stronger.5. Warner did it for two teams. People like to knock Warner by citing the talent around him in St. Louis and Arizona, but Davis had an even stronger group around him.It's close, but everything is just enough in Warner's favor to make him a strong candidate while leaving Davis as a very unlikely to ever make it.

 

[FUBAR]

I'm not sure that us Internet geeks' votes count for a whole lot anyway.

fair enough and that goes for all of us. he's far from a lock.

 

[FUBAR]

If you're voting for Kurt Warner then you're voting for Terrell Davis.

I disagree with this.1. Warner's best seasons were more impressive than Davis's.2. Warner has 2 MVP awards to Davis's 1.3. Warner ranks high in more statistical categories... really, Davis only ranks high in rushing yards per game.4. The strongest thing about Davis's case is his postseason accomplishments, but Warner's postseason accomplishments are even stronger.5. Warner did it for two teams. People like to knock Warner by citing the talent around him in St. Louis and Arizona, but Davis had an even stronger group around him.It's close, but everything is just enough in Warner's favor to make him a strong candidate while leaving Davis as a very unlikely to ever make it.

Even though I wouldn't vote for Kurt, I'll even concede that he's a better candidate than TD. and I was a huge TD fan.

 

[jon_mx]

I think Favre, Manning, Brady and Brees will make Warner an after-thought when he can be voted in. I think he needs a few more seasons at a high level to get in personally.

At this point, Warner has a much stronger case than Brees. Warner is a lock.

 

[Horses Mouth]

I think Favre, Manning, Brady and Brees will make Warner an after-thought when he can be voted in. I think he needs a few more seasons at a high level to get in personally.

I assume you are projecting Brees to have a Manning/Favre like career then?

 

[Tau837]

I think Favre, Manning, Brady and Brees will make Warner an after-thought when he can be voted in. I think he needs a few more seasons at a high level to get in personally.

I disagree with this, and saying he'll be an afterthought is a very strong statement IMO. Is there any 2 time MVP not in the HOF?Aside from that, the ongoing HOF QB drought will help Warner. Aikman and Moon were inducted in 2006, and there appears to be no QB candidates for induction until Favre, Warner, Peyton Manning, and Brady. There may be others who are active, like Brees, but they are even further down the road and probably don't matter with regard to this timeline.As it is, if Favre and/or Warner retires after this season, he/they become eligible for the class of 2015. I think it's very possible both of them could play in 2010, meaning it won't be until the class of 2016. That is potentially a 10 year drought for QBs. Even if they become eligible in the same season, I could easily see voters inducting both in the same class, just as they did for Aikman and Moon. I believe it has almost always been the case that HOF QBs have been inducted in their first year of eligibility, so that would be consistent with past precedent. This is important because if Warner gets in right away, it will almost certainly be before Manning or Brady are eligible, and, thus, he won't be competing with them for induction.Presumably both Manning and Brady (and Brees and anyone else relevant to this discussion) will play at least 5 more years after the 2009 season. If so, none of them would become eligible before the class of 2020. I don't see why that will affect Warner's chances. I get the idea that it will allow time for Warner's numbers to be diminished as others like Brees surpass him. But that didn't hurt HOF QBs in the past. And numbers is only one of four strong elements to Warner's case: (1) numbers; (2) postseason performance; (3) honors/awards; (4) backstory. I'd be somewhat surprised if any current QBs besides Peyton and Brady are able to match Warner's overall case for induction, and there is no reason why all of Favre, Warner, Peyton, and Brady cannot be HOFers.

 

[thatguy]

I think Favre, Manning, Brady and Brees will make Warner an after-thought when he can be voted in. I think he needs a few more seasons at a high level to get in personally.

One of these things is not like the others...

 

[mulliganman]

Some of you making the case against Warner are only basing opinions based on NFL accomplishments, but it is the Pro Football Hall of Fame meaning all of his professional accomplishments will be taken into consideration like being MVP in NFL Europe.

 

[Instinctive]

He might have made them slightly better but each of those 5 experienced a high level of success without Warner. Kurt has proven he can't succeed without elite talent around him. He's a great story and seems to be a great guy, but I won't vote for him if he hangs it up this year.

When did he prove that? When he broke his hand with the Giants and was replaced by their highly touted number 1 draft pick Eli Manning?

that must be it. couldn't be how he actually played for those 5 years.

So instead of just saying it, why don't you psot some stats? Forgive me if I simply don't take your word for it.

 

[Tau837]

Some of you making the case against Warner are only basing opinions based on NFL accomplishments, but it is the Pro Football Hall of Fame meaning all of his professional accomplishments will be taken into consideration like being MVP in NFL Europe.

This is a common misconception. Accomplishments outside the NFL and its lineage (e.g., AFL, AAFC) are not considered for HOF induction. When I post this, people commonly challenge it... so if you want to do that, please cite one example that refutes this. Moon is not an example... his NFL accomplishments warranted HOF induction. If your post were true, players like Doug Flutie and Herschel Walker would likely be HOFers but they won't even get close.

 

[FUBAR]

He might have made them slightly better but each of those 5 experienced a high level of success without Warner. Kurt has proven he can't succeed without elite talent around him.

He's a great story and seems to be a great guy, but I won't vote for him if he hangs it up this year.

When did he prove that? When he broke his hand with the Giants and was replaced by their highly touted number 1 draft pick Eli Manning?

that must be it. couldn't be how he actually played for those 5 years.

So instead of just saying it, why don't you psot some stats? Forgive me if I simply don't take your word for it.

don't take my word for it, don't bother looking up stats yourself to show how good this HOF "lock" was. Ok, I'll bite.http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WarnKu00.htm Sometimes stats just speak for themselves. He wasn't a complete disaster for all 5 years but he was nowhere near HOF worthy, or pro-bowl or usually even starting.

Feel free to show how he did well from 02-06.

 

[Fennis]

Im not a fan of the guy, but he is a lock. No question.

 

[Chase Stuart]

If you're voting for Kurt Warner then you're voting for Terrell Davis.

I disagree with this.1. Warner's best seasons were more impressive than Davis's.2. Warner has 2 MVP awards to Davis's 1.3. Warner ranks high in more statistical categories... really, Davis only ranks high in rushing yards per game.4. The strongest thing about Davis's case is his postseason accomplishments, but Warner's postseason accomplishments are even stronger.5. Warner did it for two teams. People like to knock Warner by citing the talent around him in St. Louis and Arizona, but Davis had an even stronger group around him.It's close, but everything is just enough in Warner's favor to make him a strong candidate while leaving Davis as a very unlikely to ever make it.

Without weighing in on #1, I disagree with the rest of your points.I don't think #2 holds much weight considering Davis has two OPOY awards and Warner has 0. So 3 big regular season awards >> 2 big regular season awards.#3 is only because QBs have more statistical categories. What more do you want besides rushing yards per game? TD also led the league in TDs twice. QBs have many more categories in which to lead the league.#4 I disagree with as well. Why as his post-season accomplishments better? TD has two of the best RB playoff performances ever.#5 gets a big shrug for me. I think both were surrounded by elite talent. Doing it for multiple teams with elite talent isn't more impressive than doing it for one team with elite talent.

 

[Jimmy James]

A second Super Bowl win makes Warner a lock in my book. If he has the season I think he'll have this year and hangs it up, I think he is in danger of ending up like Art Monk. He might eventually make it in, but I think it will take him a while. I think his off the field stuff will probably actually hurt him a little with the very small group that does the selecting. I see the stuff with his wife, the stuff that came out when Boldin was injured, and some of the other stuff rubbing them the wrong way.

 

[kaa]

The hall of fame is pretty much worthless and leads to the most boring, insipid sports debates I've ever read or listened to. Should this guy get in? Is he borderline? How can that guy not get in!!! Who cares?

Kick them all out. Change it from the "hall of fame" to the "hall of memorabilia".

 

[Chase Stuart]

FWIW, I have Warner 23rd on my all-time QB list, which includes playoff, strength of schedule and weather adjustments. It does not include strength-of-supporting-cast adjustments. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=3520

I think Warner is a solid HOF candidate. I'd probably vote for him.

 

[Tau837]

If you're voting for Kurt Warner then you're voting for Terrell Davis.

I disagree with this.1. Warner's best seasons were more impressive than Davis's.2. Warner has 2 MVP awards to Davis's 1.3. Warner ranks high in more statistical categories... really, Davis only ranks high in rushing yards per game.4. The strongest thing about Davis's case is his postseason accomplishments, but Warner's postseason accomplishments are even stronger.5. Warner did it for two teams. People like to knock Warner by citing the talent around him in St. Louis and Arizona, but Davis had an even stronger group around him.It's close, but everything is just enough in Warner's favor to make him a strong candidate while leaving Davis as a very unlikely to ever make it.

Without weighing in on #1, I disagree with the rest of your points.I don't think #2 holds much weight considering Davis has two OPOY awards and Warner has 0. So 3 big regular season awards >> 2 big regular season awards.#3 is only because QBs have more statistical categories. What more do you want besides rushing yards per game? TD also led the league in TDs twice. QBs have many more categories in which to lead the league.#4 I disagree with as well. Why as his post-season accomplishments better? TD has two of the best RB playoff performances ever.#5 gets a big shrug for me. I think both were surrounded by elite talent. Doing it for multiple teams with elite talent isn't more impressive than doing it for one team with elite talent.

#2: Serious question: Do you think the OPOY award is equal to the MVP award? I don't. Follow-up: Do you think HOF voters think the OPOY award is equal to the MVP award? I don't.#3: OK, so QBs have more statistical categories. So? The fact remains that Warner has impressive accomplishments in more categories. That is a fact.#4: Warner in 11 postseason games: 261/403 (64.8%), 3368 passing yards (8.36 ypa), 26 passing TDs, 13 interceptions, 98.9 QB rating, 2 rushing TDs.Davis in 8 postseason games: 204/1140/12 rushing (5.59 ypc), 19/131/0 receiving (6.89 ypr).I find 28 TDs from a QB in 11 games more impressive than 12 TDs in 8 games from a RB. 1271 YFS in 8 games by Davis is extremely impressive for sure; but I find 3368 passing yards in 11 games, when it includes the top 3 passing yardage games in Super Bowl history, to be equally impressive. Also, it is slightly in Warner's favor that he has excelled over an 11 game stretch, compared to an 8 game stretch for Davis.I am not saying Davis's postseason accomplishments were not impressive, I just think Warner's are more impressive. YMMV.#5: Well, in Arizona, how many HOFers do you think Warner has been surrounded with? I suppose one could make a case for Edge, though he was clearly not playing at HOF level during his time with Warner. And it's certainly possible that Fitz could make it, though that is obviously far from a lock at this point. Meanwhile, Davis played with Elway, Sharpe, and Zimmerman, and was coached by Shanahan, all of whom I expect to be in the HOF, and it won't surprise me if Nalen, Atwater, or Elam also make it. I agree this isn't a big factor.

 

[Tau837]

The hall of fame is pretty much worthless and leads to the most boring, insipid sports debates I've ever read or listened to. Should this guy get in? Is he borderline? How can that guy not get in!!! Who cares?

Kick them all out. Change it from the "hall of fame" to the "hall of memorabilia".

Then why bother reading the thread? And why bother posting in it? Just stay out if that's how you feel.

 

[Aardvarks]

One of 5 QBs all-time with 50+ 300-yd games. (Marino, Fouts, Favre, Manning)

One of 2 QBs all-time with 13,000 yds for 2 diff. teams (Tarkenton)

Around 30,000 career pass yds after today, moving into Top-30 all-time

3 Super Bowls, 1 Ring

2 NFL MVP awards in 1999 and 2001

Super Bowl MVP XXXIV

8.0 career yds/attempt, tied for 4th all-time

93.5 career Passer rating, 3rd all-time behind Manning & Young

65.6% career Completions, 2nd all-time behind Pennington

Record for highest comp % in a single game - 92.3% vs. Jags in '09

Quarterbacked 3 consecutive 500-point offenses in St. Louis (Greatest Show on Turf), an NFL team record

#1 all-time passing yardage in Super Bowl with 414 yds in XXXIV

#2 all-time passing yardage in Super Bowl with 377 yds in XLIII

#3 all-time passing yardage in Super Bowl with 365 yds in XXXVI

Joined John Elway, Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, and Tom Brady as the only 5 QBs to throw a TD in 3 SBs

This year will be his 4th 4000-yd season (not 3000, but 4000....)

At the end of this year he will be top-25 in career TD passes.

If he plays next year he could end around #18 or #19

(and remember he didn't play until he was 27 yrs old)

Add the off-field character, on-field competitiveness, fighting back from injuries, etc

There's probably a bunch of stats and records I'm leaving out, but no matter-

Kurt Warner is going in the HOF. There's no question.

Fouts got in. Moon got in. Warner will get in. He's a lock.

 

[Jimmy James]

Glad you agree with yourself.

:wtf:

 

[kaa]

The hall of fame is pretty much worthless and leads to the most boring, insipid sports debates I've ever read or listened to. Should this guy get in? Is he borderline? How can that guy not get in!!! Who cares?

Kick them all out. Change it from the "hall of fame" to the "hall of memorabilia".

Then why bother reading the thread? And why bother posting in it? Just stay out if that's how you feel.

Because the purpose of a message board is to express ideas. I could just as well say if you don't like me expressing my view about the hall of fame, you can just leave, but what's the point of that?

 

[Jimmy James]

The hall of fame is pretty much worthless and leads to the most boring, insipid sports debates I've ever read or listened to. Should this guy get in? Is he borderline? How can that guy not get in!!! Who cares?

Kick them all out. Change it from the "hall of fame" to the "hall of memorabilia".

Then why bother reading the thread? And why bother posting in it? Just stay out if that's how you feel.

Because the purpose of a message board is to express ideas. I could just as well say if you don't like me expressing my view about the hall of fame, you can just leave, but what's the point of that?

It's not just a conflict in ideas here. You're claiming that the debate is dull on one hand but you clearly spent time and energy on it. I guess you have a right to be so bored that this is how you spend your time (on things that bore you), but it seems odd. That goes double when you are clearly a fan of football and there has been wall to wall football today.

 

[Tau837]

The hall of fame is pretty much worthless and leads to the most boring, insipid sports debates I've ever read or listened to. Should this guy get in? Is he borderline? How can that guy not get in!!! Who cares?

Kick them all out. Change it from the "hall of fame" to the "hall of memorabilia".

Then why bother reading the thread? And why bother posting in it? Just stay out if that's how you feel.

Because the purpose of a message board is to express ideas. I could just as well say if you don't like me expressing my view about the hall of fame, you can just leave, but what's the point of that?

You came in this thread and called the discussion boring and insipid and said you don't care about these discussions. What ideas were you expressing when saying that? It seems that you were just bashing those of us who like these "boring, insipid sports debates." Is that the "idea" you were expressing? If not, please clarify. If so, I repeat, why not stay out of the thread?

 

[jon_mx]

He's talking about the five years that he sucked in between StL and Arizona. Those are the years that threaten his HOF chances. The other stuff is just a good story.

Those 5 years weren't all that bad when he was healthy. 2005 was actually pretty good. In 10 games threw for 2700 yards and had an 86.5 QB rating. That translates into over 4300 yards over 16 games. 2002 was the only year i would call terrible.2006 Arizona Cardinals 6 5 108 168 64.3 1,377 8.2 6 5 14 104 89.3 13 3 0.2 0 10 32005 Arizona Cardinals 10 10 242 375 64.5 2,713 7.2 11 9 23 158 85.8 13 28 2.2 0 9 52004 New York Giants 10 9 174 277 62.8 2,054 7.4 6 4 39 196 86.5 13 30 2.3 1 12 42003 St. Louis Rams 2 1 38 65 58.5 365 5.6 1 1 6 38 72.9 1 0 0.0 0 6 32002 St. Louis Rams 7 6 144 220 65.5 1,431 6.5 3 11 21 130 67.4 8 33 4.1 0 8 2

 

[David Yudkin]

He's talking about the five years that he sucked in between StL and Arizona. Those are the years that threaten his HOF chances. The other stuff is just a good story.

Those 5 years weren't all that bad when he was healthy. 2005 was actually pretty good. In 10 games threw for 2700 yards and had an 86.5 QB rating. That translates into over 4300 yards over 16 games. 2002 was the only year i would call terrible.2006 Arizona Cardinals 6 5 108 168 64.3 1,377 8.2 6 5 14 104 89.3 13 3 0.2 0 10 32005 Arizona Cardinals 10 10 242 375 64.5 2,713 7.2 11 9 23 158 85.8 13 28 2.2 0 9 52004 New York Giants 10 9 174 277 62.8 2,054 7.4 6 4 39 196 86.5 13 30 2.3 1 12 42003 St. Louis Rams 2 1 38 65 58.5 365 5.6 1 1 6 38 72.9 1 0 0.0 0 6 32002 St. Louis Rams 7 6 144 220 65.5 1,431 6.5 3 11 21 130 67.4 8 33 4.1 0 8 2

A lot of QBs have so so years to start and to end their careers. Warner had the opposite.Look at Aikman as an example. his first two and his last years were:1749-9-18-55.7 passer rating2579-11-18-66.61632-7-14-64.3Warner's down years happened to fall in the middle of his career. Why should those years hurt him more than the learning/ending years for other QBs?

 

[tppt]

I agree. What puts him in for me, is how he is finishing his career. I dont think he has the longeivity, but he is on fire and when he finishes his career on fire, people wont remember the off years.

in fact after the 5 year waiting period, no one will remember the off years. just the rams and how he finished.

 

[Werewolf Moderator Fan]

3 Super Bowls, 2 different teams, 1 ring.

Career 93.5% passer rating.

4-time Pro-Bowler and 2-time 1st team All Pro.

No way he doesn't get in.

 

[geoff8695]

Warner is an elite HOF worthy QB based on stats alone. Throw in probably the greatest 'rags to riches' story in NFL history, his postseason successes, and the late career comeback with the Cardinals after most thought he was done, and Kurt Warner is absolutely without any doubt in my mind destined for the HOF.

With his late career resurgence he has proven that he wasn't just a system QB or one-hit wonder, and he continues to display the same phenomenal decision making skills and accuracy that he did in St. Louis with an incredible Comp%, YPA, and QB rating. If it were so easy for any NFL QB to accomplish these feats then 'old, injured, washed up, journeyman', Kurt Warner would have been out of the league years ago and some other schlep would have been leading the Cardinals to the Super Bowl last season, right? 'Cuz Vinny Testaverde or any other journeyman stat compiler NFL QB can take a team with great talent at WR to the Super Bowl and lead a 4th quarter comeback against the league's best defense and put his team ahead in the closing minutes of the game, right?



Seriously, I don't understand arguments about Warner benefitting from surrounding talent. So what? Most HOF inductees have had great talent around them, and plenty of non-HOF QBs have had HOF level talented WRs around them. How many of those guys have stats, successes, and accolades comparable to Warner's? Only a handful, and they are 1st ballot HOFers. What's more, they are also the same QBs we talk about in the G.O.A.T. discussions.

Maybe Kurt just makes it look too easy or something. Whatever it is, this Warner guy is one of the best QBs I've ever seen play the game and he will easily make the HOF on the 1st ballot, but if it makes you happy to debate otherwise, then have at it...

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

Surrounding talent or not, how many QBs can you name that had a high level of success with more than one team?

 

[Chase Stuart]

If you're voting for Kurt Warner then you're voting for Terrell Davis.

I disagree with this.1. Warner's best seasons were more impressive than Davis's.2. Warner has 2 MVP awards to Davis's 1.3. Warner ranks high in more statistical categories... really, Davis only ranks high in rushing yards per game.4. The strongest thing about Davis's case is his postseason accomplishments, but Warner's postseason accomplishments are even stronger.5. Warner did it for two teams. People like to knock Warner by citing the talent around him in St. Louis and Arizona, but Davis had an even stronger group around him.It's close, but everything is just enough in Warner's favor to make him a strong candidate while leaving Davis as a very unlikely to ever make it.

Without weighing in on #1, I disagree with the rest of your points.I don't think #2 holds much weight considering Davis has two OPOY awards and Warner has 0. So 3 big regular season awards >> 2 big regular season awards.#3 is only because QBs have more statistical categories. What more do you want besides rushing yards per game? TD also led the league in TDs twice. QBs have many more categories in which to lead the league.#4 I disagree with as well. Why as his post-season accomplishments better? TD has two of the best RB playoff performances ever.#5 gets a big shrug for me. I think both were surrounded by elite talent. Doing it for multiple teams with elite talent isn't more impressive than doing it for one team with elite talent.

#2: Serious question: Do you think the OPOY award is equal to the MVP award? I don't. Follow-up: Do you think HOF voters think the OPOY award is equal to the MVP award? I don't.#3: OK, so QBs have more statistical categories. So? The fact remains that Warner has impressive accomplishments in more categories. That is a fact.#4: Warner in 11 postseason games: 261/403 (64.8%), 3368 passing yards (8.36 ypa), 26 passing TDs, 13 interceptions, 98.9 QB rating, 2 rushing TDs.Davis in 8 postseason games: 204/1140/12 rushing (5.59 ypc), 19/131/0 receiving (6.89 ypr).I find 28 TDs from a QB in 11 games more impressive than 12 TDs in 8 games from a RB. 1271 YFS in 8 games by Davis is extremely impressive for sure; but I find 3368 passing yards in 11 games, when it includes the top 3 passing yardage games in Super Bowl history, to be equally impressive. Also, it is slightly in Warner's favor that he has excelled over an 11 game stretch, compared to an 8 game stretch for Davis.I am not saying Davis's postseason accomplishments were not impressive, I just think Warner's are more impressive. YMMV.#5: Well, in Arizona, how many HOFers do you think Warner has been surrounded with? I suppose one could make a case for Edge, though he was clearly not playing at HOF level during his time with Warner. And it's certainly possible that Fitz could make it, though that is obviously far from a lock at this point. Meanwhile, Davis played with Elway, Sharpe, and Zimmerman, and was coached by Shanahan, all of whom I expect to be in the HOF, and it won't surprise me if Nalen, Atwater, or Elam also make it. I agree this isn't a big factor.

#2 Let's look just as the AP, although we wouldn't normally want to limit ourselves like that. Let's look at the years where the AP named an offensive player as MVP and the OPOY award was given to someone who did not get a share of the AP MVP.Last year, Brees was the OPOY and Manning the MVP. In '03, Manning/McNair split the MVP, Jamal Lewis won the OPOY. In '02, Holmes won the OPOY award, Gannon the MVP. Faulk won the OPOY award in '99 and '01, Warner won the MVP in both. In '96, TD won the OPOY award, Favre the MVP. In '94, Barry Sanders won the OPOY award, Young the MVP. In '93, Rice got the OPOY award, Emmit the MVP. In '90, Moon won the OPOT award, Montana the MVP. In '88, Craig won the OPOY award, Esiason the MVP. In '87, Rice the OPOY award, Elway the MVP. In '78 and '80, Campbell won the OPOY award, Bradshaw and Sipe won the MVPs.The MVP is given to QBs. So it's misleading at best to say Warner has a better HOF case than TD because of the MVPs. Considering Warner is an offensive player, it seems odd to say he gets credit for being the most valuable offensive player in a season but TD does not get credit for being the offensive player of the year.So yes, the OPOY = MVP award, in my view. I have no idea what the voters think, but considering what goes on in their minds, nothing would surprise me.#3 I just don't see the relevance here. Rushing yards per game is about as important a stat as it gets for RBs. And TD is great there. It's not TDs fault that we don't track more stats. I suspect if we tracked individual rushing first downs, or percentage of successful runs, TD would look good there, too. Would that boost his HOF case if we had more record keepers?#4 I think it's hard to say much more than both guys have been A or A+ performers in the post-season. TD is clearly one of the top three post-season RBs of all-time. Throw in Emmitt and then either Franco Harris or John Riggins or Thurman Thomas or Larry Csonka or Marshall Faulk or Marcus Allen, but regardless, TD is in that top-three. If you're a top-three post-season RB of all-time, and arguably #1, that's good enough for me to call this a push -- at best.#5 It's certainly about more than HOFers. But I agree that this is not a big factor.

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

He might have made them slightly better but each of those 5 experienced a high level of success without Warner. Kurt has proven he can't succeed without elite talent around him.

He's a great story and seems to be a great guy, but I won't vote for him if he hangs it up this year.

When did he prove that? When he broke his hand with the Giants and was replaced by their highly touted number 1 draft pick Eli Manning?

that must be it. couldn't be how he actually played for those 5 years.

So instead of just saying it, why don't you psot some stats? Forgive me if I simply don't take your word for it.

don't take my word for it, don't bother looking up stats yourself to show how good this HOF "lock" was. Ok, I'll bite.http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WarnKu00.htm Sometimes stats just speak for themselves. He wasn't a complete disaster for all 5 years but he was nowhere near HOF worthy, or pro-bowl or usually even starting.

Feel free to show how he did well from 02-06.

1 of those years is really a blip, since he only attempted 38 passes...of the the remaining 4, in 3 of these he had a QB rating in the upper 80s and averaged 7.2, 7.4 and 8.2 Y/A.

not too shabby. One of the main things holding him back was the injuries.

 

[Doug B]

This is a common misconception. Accomplishments outside the NFL and its lineage (e.g., AFL, AAFC) are not considered for HOF induction. When I post this, people commonly challenge it... so if you want to do that, please cite one example that refutes this. Moon is not an example... his NFL accomplishments warranted HOF induction. If your post were true, players like Doug Flutie and Herschel Walker would likely be HOFers but they won't even get close.

I don't know about AAFC ... but AFL accomplishments absolutely counted in HOF voting. Examples would be Lance Alworth and Joe Namath.

 

[Tau837]

This is a common misconception. Accomplishments outside the NFL and its lineage (e.g., AFL, AAFC) are not considered for HOF induction. When I post this, people commonly challenge it... so if you want to do that, please cite one example that refutes this. Moon is not an example... his NFL accomplishments warranted HOF induction. If your post were true, players like Doug Flutie and Herschel Walker would likely be HOFers but they won't even get close.

I don't know about AAFC ... but AFL accomplishments absolutely counted in HOF voting. Examples would be Lance Alworth and Joe Namath.

Maybe I didn't express that very well, but you just agreed with my statement. I said that accomplishments in leagues outside the NFL and its lineage, where its lineage includes AFL and AAFC, are not counted. So NFL, AFL, and AAFC are counted. Examples of things not counted include CFL, USFL, and Arena League football.