WARNING! 40 Time for WR's --- WAY OVERRATTED (1 Viewer)

[Andy Dufresne]

Looking past all the sarcastic remarks, the OP makes a valid point in his second and third posts. To respond, I will add that many of these measurables do in fact exist. When players run the 40 at the combine, their times are divided into "10 yard splits" to gauge a players initial burst off the line, peak acceleration etc. The splits are not reported much by the mainstream media because theyre not as sexy as the 40 yard times, but teams definitely use them extensively when evaluating players. For example, look at Derek Hagan at last years combine. While his 4.42 40 was considered good-but-not-great, his 10 yard split time of 1.52 was the fastest of any player at Indianapolis. What it means is that Hagan got off the line and into his routes at top speed faster than any other reciever. Nick Saban went as far as to single out Hagan's split time as one of the primary reasons the Dolphins drafted him. The same data exists for the second 10 yard split, the 20 yard split, etc. These numbers may not garner as much attention as the 40 times, but teams definitely use them. You know, this place has become much more sarcastic lately. This is a good topic.

Can the average Joe (or Andy/Jason) find this info anywhere?

 

[RenegadeGM]

Why isn't the original poster's name WHY RUN HARD?

 

[-OZ-]

For every WR who doesn't make it in the league because of hands/route running there's another one who doesn't make it because he's too slow.

Maybe the QB could throw the ball closer to the WR?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

For example, look at Derek Hagan at last years combine. While his 4.42 40 was considered good-but-not-great, his 10 yard split time of 1.52 was the fastest of any player at Indianapolis. What it means is that Hagan got off the line and into his routes at top speed faster than any other reciever. Nick Saban went as far as to single out Hagan's split time as one of the primary reasons the Dolphins drafted him.

I really disagree with Saban there. The first ten yards in a 40 measure how good a guy's track & field stance & start are, which is largely a matter of technique that has very little to do with how fast a guy will accelerate from a WR stance.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I really disagree with Saban there. The first ten yards in a 40 measure how good a guy's track & field stance & start are, which is largely a matter of technique that has very little to do with how fast a guy will accelerate from a WR stance.

Hey! Who's the NFL coach here, fel... Oh, wait.

 

[Despyzer]

You know, this place has become much more sarcastic lately. This is a good topic.

What would you know? You plan vacation trips to Greenville, SC.

 

[cstu]

For example, look at Derek Hagan at last years combine. While his 4.42 40 was considered good-but-not-great, his 10 yard split time of 1.52 was the fastest of any player at Indianapolis. What it means is that Hagan got off the line and into his routes at top speed faster than any other reciever. Nick Saban went as far as to single out Hagan's split time as one of the primary reasons the Dolphins drafted him.

I really disagree with Saban there. The first ten yards in a 40 measure how good a guy's track & field stance & start are, which is largely a matter of technique that has very little to do with how fast a guy will accelerate from a WR stance.

So why isn't the 40 run from a WR stance?

 

[Chase Stuart]

someone can feel free to ck my math:4.40 forty=18.6 MPH4.50 forty=18.2 MPH4.60 forty=17.8 MPHyou cant just ignore a 40 time but there are times that I think people forget just how small a difference .10 is...but football is a game of inches and that .10 can easily be the difference between and INT or a TD

Is there any sport that is not ultimately a game of inches? The older I've gotten the more I've started to believe that that's among the most overused cliches in sports, at least as it is meant to imply smaller margin for error in one sport over another.

Golf.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

For example, look at Derek Hagan at last years combine. While his 4.42 40 was considered good-but-not-great, his 10 yard split time of 1.52 was the fastest of any player at Indianapolis. What it means is that Hagan got off the line and into his routes at top speed faster than any other reciever. Nick Saban went as far as to single out Hagan's split time as one of the primary reasons the Dolphins drafted him.

I really disagree with Saban there. The first ten yards in a 40 measure how good a guy's track & field stance & start are, which is largely a matter of technique that has very little to do with how fast a guy will accelerate from a WR stance.

So why isn't the 40 run from a WR stance?

Good question. Here's a comment from Bill Walsh:

We need to run the 40, but we must remind ourselves when we are talking about less than a tenth of a second in differentials, we are talking about the conditions of the track and how much training the athlete has with a track start. When you look at the 40s of 15 or 20 years ago, the times are slow. A big part was they were not on an ideal surface. They just ran if anybody asked them, on any length of grass or any form of field. They had not practiced the start. They would get into their football stance and start. And they had not rehearsed this as if they were preparing to run indoor sprints.

So in some ways the times get better and better, but they are less and less reliable in terms of functional playing speed.

And a similar comment by Mike Mayock:

I'm the son of a coach, and I grew up watching an awful lot of game film. I think I have a good understanding of what makes a good football player. The fascination with the 40 to me, while I think it's fun and we have a great time with it, I think it also distorts what the kid is or isn't sometimes as a football player because the reality is they're all going to these camps and they're learning how to start because the most important thing in the 40 is your first five, six, seven yards. They're all learning how to get in the three-point stance and start like a track guy. It's not really making them a better football player so I kind of laugh. But I understand from a comparison perspective in the evaluation process that it becomes important. To me the tape and what kind of football player you are still matters more. But the measurables are critical to the personnel side of the staff.

If you look at the trainers who help college players get ready for the NFL combine, a lot of what they work on with the player is his track stance and start.For example:

Our speed and agility days are also critical. We concentrate on a form running program that is targeted to improve our 10-yard and 40-yard dash times. We work exclusively on stance and start: generating force with the upper body to create an explosive start and using body lean to gain ground on the first step.

 

[Despyzer]

Didn't TSN or SI do an article about 40 times where they looked at its origins? They also interviewed some coaches and scouts about why it was still being used, and none of them had any kind of an answer.

 

[pk4239]

40 Times for WRs since 1999, most of the info comes from http://www.nfldraftscout.com/

Although I did look up a few on NFL.com

Santana Moss | Jets | Miami (FL) 4.31

Chad Jackson | Patriots | Florida 4.32

Troy Williamson | Vikings | South Carolina 4.32

Tim Carter | Giants | Auburn 4.32

Tyrone Calico | Titans | Middle Tenn St 4.33

Chris Chambers | Dolphins | Wisconsin 4.33

Devin Hester | Bears | Miami (FL) 4.33

Lee Evans | Bills | Wisconsin 4.33

Jerry Porter | Raiders | West Virginia 4.34

Todd Pinkston | Eagles | So Miss 4.37

Santonio Holmes | Steelers | Ohio State 4.38

Sinorice Moss | Giants | Miami (FL) 4.38

Javon Walker | Packers | Florida State 4.38

Matt Jones | Jaguars | Arkansas 4.40

Charles Rogers | Lions | Michigan State 4.40

Andre Johnson | Texans | Miami (FL) 4.40

R. Jay Soward | Jaguars | USC 4.40

Mark Clayton | Ravens | Oklahoma 4.41

Kevin Johnson | Browns | Syracuse 4.41

Devery Henderson | Saints | Louisiana State 4.41

Greg Jennings | Packers | Western Michigan 4.42

Taylor Jacobs | Redskins | Florida 4.42

Mark Bradley | Bears | Oklahoma 4.42

Andre Davis | Browns | Virginia Tech 4.42

Roscoe Parrish | Bills | Miami (FL) 4.43

David Terrell | Bears | Michigan 4.43

Travis Taylor | Ravens | Florida 4.43

Torry Holt | Rams | North Carolina State 4.44

Terrence Murphy | Packers | Texas A&M 4.44

Braylon Edwards | Browns | Michigan 4.45

Reggie Brown | Eagles | Georgia 4.45

Reggie Wayne | Colts | Miami (FL) 4.45

Dennis Northcutt | Browns | Arizona 4.45

Roddy White | Falcons | Ala-Birm 4.45

Freddie Mitchell | Eagles | UCLA 4.45

Vincent Jackson | Chargers | No Co 4.46

Rashaun Woods | 49ers | Oklahoma State 4.47

David Boston | Cardinals | Ohio State 4.47

Deion Branch | Patriots | Louisville 4.47

Ron Dugans | Bengals | Florida State 4.47

Roy Williams | Lions | Texas 4.48

Donte Stallworth | Saints | Tennessee 4.48

Rod Gardner | Redskins | Clemson 4.48

Quincy Morgan | Browns | Kansas State 4.48

Ashley Lelie | Broncos | Hawaii 4.49

Darius Watts | Broncos | Marshall 4.49

Antwaan Randle El | Steelers | Indiana 4.49

Reche Caldwell | Chargers | Florida 4.53

Josh Reed | Bills | Louisiana State 4.54

Peerless Price | Bills | Tennessee 4.55

Bethel Johnson | Patriots | Texas A&M 4.55

Mike Williams | Lions | USC 4.56

Jabar Gaffney | Texans | Florida 4.56

Bryant Johnson | Cardinals | Penn State 4.57

Chad Johnson | Bengals | Oregon State 4.57

Troy Edwards | Steelers | Louisiana Tech 4.57

Antonio Bryant | Cowboys | Pittsburgh 4.57

Peter Warrick | Bengals | Florida State 4.58

Plaxico Burress | Steelers | Michigan State 4.59

Robert Ferguson | Packers | Texas A&M 4.59

Michael Jenkins | Falcons | Ohio State 4.60

Keary Colbert | Panthers | USC 4.60

Koren Robinson | Seahawks | NC State 4.61

Sylvester Morris | Chiefs | Jackson State 4.61

Reggie Williams | Jaguars | Washington 4.62

Larry Fitzgerald | Cardinals | Pittsburgh 4.63

Teyo Johnson | Raiders | Stanford 4.63

Michael Clayton | Buccaneers | LSU 4.67

Anquan Boldin | Cardinals | Florida State 4.72

 

[cstu]

Looks to me like there's a better hit rate on WR's who are < 4.5 than those > 4.5.

 

[RUN HARD]

Looking past all the sarcastic remarks, the OP makes a valid point in his second and third posts. To respond, I will add that many of these measurables do in fact exist. When players run the 40 at the combine, their times are divided into "10 yard splits" to gauge a players initial burst off the line, peak acceleration etc. The splits are not reported much by the mainstream media because theyre not as sexy as the 40 yard times, but teams definitely use them extensively when evaluating players. For example, look at Derek Hagan at last years combine. While his 4.42 40 was considered good-but-not-great, his 10 yard split time of 1.52 was the fastest of any player at Indianapolis. What it means is that Hagan got off the line and into his routes at top speed faster than any other reciever. Nick Saban went as far as to single out Hagan's split time as one of the primary reasons the Dolphins drafted him. The same data exists for the second 10 yard split, the 20 yard split, etc. These numbers may not garner as much attention as the 40 times, but teams definitely use them. You know, this place has become much more sarcastic lately. This is a good topic.

Just because Hagan got out of the blocks slow doesn't mean he and another 4.42 guy are the same speed. I would love to see the last 10 yard SPLITS. I was unaware they had this data...but it makes a TON of sense to me.

 

[Native]

Looking past all the sarcastic remarks, the OP makes a valid point in his second and third posts. To respond, I will add that many of these measurables do in fact exist. When players run the 40 at the combine, their times are divided into "10 yard splits" to gauge a players initial burst off the line, peak acceleration etc. The splits are not reported much by the mainstream media because theyre not as sexy as the 40 yard times, but teams definitely use them extensively when evaluating players. For example, look at Derek Hagan at last years combine. While his 4.42 40 was considered good-but-not-great, his 10 yard split time of 1.52 was the fastest of any player at Indianapolis. What it means is that Hagan got off the line and into his routes at top speed faster than any other reciever. Nick Saban went as far as to single out Hagan's split time as one of the primary reasons the Dolphins drafted him. The same data exists for the second 10 yard split, the 20 yard split, etc. These numbers may not garner as much attention as the 40 times, but teams definitely use them. You know, this place has become much more sarcastic lately. This is a good topic.

Can the average Joe (or Andy/Jason) find this info anywhere?

Let me see if I can dig it up. We were talking about it a lot last year on the Finheaven boards. I'll see if I can find a link.

 

[RUN HARD]

40 Times for WRs since 1999, most of the info comes from http://www.nfldraftscout.com/

Although I did look up a few on NFL.com

Santana Moss | Jets | Miami (FL) 4.31

Chad Jackson | Patriots | Florida 4.32

Troy Williamson | Vikings | South Carolina 4.32

Tim Carter | Giants | Auburn 4.32

Tyrone Calico | Titans | Middle Tenn St 4.33

Chris Chambers | Dolphins | Wisconsin 4.33

Devin Hester | Bears | Miami (FL) 4.33

Lee Evans | Bills | Wisconsin 4.33

Jerry Porter | Raiders | West Virginia 4.34

Todd Pinkston | Eagles | So Miss 4.37

Santonio Holmes | Steelers | Ohio State 4.38

Sinorice Moss | Giants | Miami (FL) 4.38

Javon Walker | Packers | Florida State 4.38

Matt Jones | Jaguars | Arkansas 4.40

Charles Rogers | Lions | Michigan State 4.40

Andre Johnson | Texans | Miami (FL) 4.40

R. Jay Soward | Jaguars | USC 4.40

Mark Clayton | Ravens | Oklahoma 4.41

Kevin Johnson | Browns | Syracuse 4.41

Devery Henderson | Saints | Louisiana State 4.41

Greg Jennings | Packers | Western Michigan 4.42

Taylor Jacobs | Redskins | Florida 4.42

Mark Bradley | Bears | Oklahoma 4.42

Andre Davis | Browns | Virginia Tech 4.42

Roscoe Parrish | Bills | Miami (FL) 4.43

David Terrell | Bears | Michigan 4.43

Travis Taylor | Ravens | Florida 4.43

Torry Holt | Rams | North Carolina State 4.44

Terrence Murphy | Packers | Texas A&M 4.44

Braylon Edwards | Browns | Michigan 4.45

Reggie Brown | Eagles | Georgia 4.45

Reggie Wayne | Colts | Miami (FL) 4.45

Dennis Northcutt | Browns | Arizona 4.45

Roddy White | Falcons | Ala-Birm 4.45

Freddie Mitchell | Eagles | UCLA 4.45

Vincent Jackson | Chargers | No Co 4.46

Rashaun Woods | 49ers | Oklahoma State 4.47

David Boston | Cardinals | Ohio State 4.47

Deion Branch | Patriots | Louisville 4.47

Ron Dugans | Bengals | Florida State 4.47

Roy Williams | Lions | Texas 4.48

Donte Stallworth | Saints | Tennessee 4.48

Rod Gardner | Redskins | Clemson 4.48

Quincy Morgan | Browns | Kansas State 4.48

Ashley Lelie | Broncos | Hawaii 4.49

Darius Watts | Broncos | Marshall 4.49

Antwaan Randle El | Steelers | Indiana 4.49

Reche Caldwell | Chargers | Florida 4.53

Josh Reed | Bills | Louisiana State 4.54

Peerless Price | Bills | Tennessee 4.55

Bethel Johnson | Patriots | Texas A&M 4.55

Mike Williams | Lions | USC 4.56

Jabar Gaffney | Texans | Florida 4.56

Bryant Johnson | Cardinals | Penn State 4.57

Chad Johnson | Bengals | Oregon State 4.57

Troy Edwards | Steelers | Louisiana Tech 4.57

Antonio Bryant | Cowboys | Pittsburgh 4.57

Peter Warrick | Bengals | Florida State 4.58

Plaxico Burress | Steelers | Michigan State 4.59

Robert Ferguson | Packers | Texas A&M 4.59

Michael Jenkins | Falcons | Ohio State 4.60

Keary Colbert | Panthers | USC 4.60

Koren Robinson | Seahawks | NC State 4.61

Sylvester Morris | Chiefs | Jackson State 4.61

Reggie Williams | Jaguars | Washington 4.62

Larry Fitzgerald | Cardinals | Pittsburgh 4.63

Teyo Johnson | Raiders | Stanford 4.63

Michael Clayton | Buccaneers | LSU 4.67

Anquan Boldin | Cardinals | Florida State 4.72

Interesting....the TOP WR's in dynasty rankings:1 Larry Fitzgerald 4.63

2 Steve Smith ????

3 Chad Johnson 4.57

4 Torry Holt 4.44

5 Anquin Boldin 4.72

6 Reggie Wayne 4.45

7 Roy Williams 4.48

8 Marvin Harrison ????

9 Lee Evans 4.33

10 Javon Walker 4.38

A few burners.....but overall....you can see....40 times are OVERRATED!!!!

This concludes this PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT!!!!

 

[ImTheScientist]

Looks to me like there's a better hit rate on WR's who are < 4.5 than those > 4.5.

How many WR's run < 4.5 vs How many run > 4.5 in college football? The hit rate is better for < 4.5.

 

[RUN HARD]

someone can feel free to ck my math:4.40 forty=18.6 MPH4.50 forty=18.2 MPH4.60 forty=17.8 MPHyou cant just ignore a 40 time but there are times that I think people forget just how small a difference .10 is...but football is a game of inches and that .10 can easily be the difference between and INT or a TD

But the guy who ran the 4.6 could be THE FASTEST. Your calc's are the AVG speed...NOT TOP END speed.The guy running the 4.6 could just take half a second to get started...but then is flying. The 1/2 second kills his 40 time....but a half second when running a rout is nothing

 

[Native]

Enjoy folks:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/nflco...e&order=ASC

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Enjoy folks:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/nflco...e&order=ASC

 

[Native]

Maybe this is obvious to most, but if you want to see how fast a player runs the SECOND 10 yards (i.e, from 10 yards to 20 yards), simply subtract his 10 yard split from his 20 yard split. Simialrly, if you want to see how fast a player runs the LAST 20 yards of the 40, subtract his 20 yard split time from the 40 time.

It can help you assess at what point in a route a player will pick up the most speed. As RUN HARD said, some guys are fast out of the gates but are not natural blazers, while others stumble off the blocks but possess truly staggering straight ahead speed once they get going.

 

[kensat30]

I think they should start timing routes for WRs at the combines. Just set up cones to correspond with different routes and time them. The 40 would then become the "fly route". The 10 yard split would be the "stop route". Have an out route, slant, post, corner, out and up, etc. And make them do it wearing a standard set of pads.

How valuable would that be?

 

[cstu]

Looks to me like there's a better hit rate on WR's who are < 4.5 than those > 4.5.

How many WR's run < 4.5 vs How many run > 4.5 in college football? The hit rate is better for < 4.5.

This has nothing to do with college football, it's about the speed of WR's drafted in the NFL. We agree on the bolded part so I'm not sure what the thumbdown is for.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Looks to me like there's a better hit rate on WR's who are < 4.5 than those > 4.5.

How many WR's run < 4.5 vs How many run > 4.5 in college football? The hit rate is better for < 4.5.

This has nothing to do with college football, it's about the speed of WR's drafted in the NFL. We agree on the bolded part so I'm not sure what the thumbdown is for.

Sorry....did not read that right

 

[RUN HARD]

WOW....and the #1 RB CLOSER is Adrian Peterson...

Last 20 yards in 1.82.

That was matched by WR Calvin Johnson

Look at these WR's TOP END speed in last 20 yards:

D Clowny

Y Figurs

J Hill

C Johnson

M Mason

M Walker

P Williams

I am going to keep my eye on these 7 WR's in 07

 

[Native]

Some good info here RUN HARD.

Closing 20 yard splits are much more telling for WR's than WR's for the simple reason that RB's dont often reach top end speed.

 

[RUN HARD]

Anyone have M Harrison & S Smith's 40 times?

 

[pk4239]

Anyone have M Harrison & S Smith's 40 times?

Smith ran a 4.35 and Harrison a 4.38

 

[Biabreakable]

someone can feel free to ck my math:4.40 forty=18.6 MPH4.50 forty=18.2 MPH4.60 forty=17.8 MPHyou cant just ignore a 40 time but there are times that I think people forget just how small a difference .10 is...but football is a game of inches and that .10 can easily be the difference between and INT or a TD

But the guy who ran the 4.6 could be THE FASTEST. Your calc's are the AVG speed...NOT TOP END speed.The guy running the 4.6 could just take half a second to get started...but then is flying. The 1/2 second kills his 40 time....but a half second when running a rout is nothing

A Qbs career can be over in .5 seconds.I would have to say it does matter.