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What are your favorite places to find value? (1 Viewer)

After the Rain

Footballguy
I have found that there are certain scenarios where value is often produced. Here are a couple:

1. When a team adds significant o-line help--In my experience, people fail to consider this. For instance, Cleveland had some nice improvement last year and the results were clear. That is not to say that Braylon, Anderson, JLew and company didn't take big steps, it is just to say that the o-line gave a boost. 1st round draft picks and free agent signings are usually the place to look.

2. Established RBs where a team drafts a RB in the 1st or 2nd round--People tend to get excited about the new guy and sour on the returner assuming he is done. I have already seen people doing it with Willie Parker.

What are the scenarios you have found that lead to value?

 
I love finding value in players other people say are washed up because they got injured. Did this with A. Green and J. Lewis recently.

 
It depends on what I'm looking for.

If it's a kicker, I look for poor red-zone offenses. Titans-Rob Bironas

As far as free agents go, or trades, I will try to look at and determine the value the acquiring team places on said player.

Example: Last year the Patriots gave the Dolphins a 2nd and 7th round pick for Wes Welker. Although the Patriots were acquiring a slew of receivers during the offseason last year, this move stood out and spoke volumes to me. The Patriots cherish their draft picks far too much to give up that much and not have intentions of utilizing Welker greatly. I also took into consideration how much Brady likes to work the middle of the field. With Moss, Stallworth, Gaffney, and others working the outside, it would free up Welker to run free all day long from the slot. I couldn't wait to draft him! I hadn't been that excited to draft any particular player in a long time. It was an auction draft, so there was no way I wasn't going to get him.

In auction drafts, I'll go with #2 WRs in prolific passing offenses every time. #1's are consistently overpriced, and you'll get nearly the same production for nearly half the cost. Over the years, before it had become more evident, I had done this with the likes of Reggie Wayne, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Santonio Holmes, and even Terry Glenn 2 years ago. Going further back, #2 Bruce over #1 Holt, or even further back, #2 C. Carter over #1 R. Moss.

I will take #1 receivers, just not the "big-name" overpriced ones. You can get two solid #2's for essentially the same money you pay for one #1.

Targets this year may be Donte' Stallworth (developing good chemistry with Anderson), D.J. Hackett (defenses will continue to smother Steve Smith), and even Anthony Gonzalez if Marvin Harrison struggles. Gonzalez could be a HUGE steal this year.

For PPR leagues, I'll look at tight ends with a young QB. Young QBs lean on their TEs immensely. While the top TEs today are all obvious, a majority of them have young QBs. Those not so obvious would be Titans (Scaife), Texans (Daniels), and Broncos (Scheffler). A good sleeper this year would be Anthony Fasano in Miami. A 3rd year TE, the Dolphins gave up a 4th rounder for him, and they have a young QB with no proven #1 WR.

 
Anthony Gonzalez if Marvin Harrison struggles. Gonzalez could be a HUGE steal this year.
With Harrison's age/injury/legal situation I think Gonzalez will likely be overvalued. He's not gonna put up numbers like Wayne put up when he was playing 2nd fiddle it just won't happen. If Harrison doesn't end up playing, then Gonzalez MAY be a top-20 WR but anything more would be surprising. ETA: If Harrison doesn't play, Gonzalez will likely be taken among the top-20 WR's in every league.
 
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This is something I've mentioned before, but there's an odd phenomenon that happens every year with rookies. The guys who show flashes of talent rocket up the boards (Bowe, Gonzalez, Rice, Ginn) while the guys who don't do squat plummet (Meachem, Jarrett, Hill, Jac. Jones). This is definitely fair to an extent, but I think people tend to jump the gun by labeling slow starters "busts." Consider what the following quality receivers did in their rookie years:

Chad Johnson - 28 catches, 329 yards

Steve Smith - 10 catches, 154 yards

Brandon Marshall - 20 catches, 329 yards

Plaxico Burress - 23 catches, 273 yards

Kevin Curtis - 4 catches, 13 yards

Santana Moss - 2 catches, 40 yards

Isaac Bruce - 21 catches, 272 yards

Marty Booker - 19 catches, 219 yards

Bernard Berrian - 15 catches, 225 yards

Donald Driver - 3 catches, 31 yards

Jerricho Cothcery - 6 catches, 60 yards

Hines Ward - 15 catches, 246 yards

All of these guys eventually achieved FF relevance, and some of them have put up Hall of Fame type numbers.

My rule with prospects is that you shouldn't conclude they suck until they definitively prove that they suck. Just because a guy sits on the bench for a year or two behind mediocre veterans doesn't mean he sucks. He might be a great player who just hasn't had an opportunity to show it. Chad Johnson is the perfect example of this. No one was hyping him after his rookie year. I'm sure he went behind Rod Gardner and David Terrell in every dynasty draft. Yet once he got an opportunity to play in the middle of his second season, he started performing on a Pro Bowl level.

This sort of thing happens more often than you might think. So rather than write off every rookie who doesn't put up stats right away, I make a habit of targeting the "busts" who haven't done much. Today's Jason Hill and Devard Darling could be tomorrow's Jerricho Cotchery and Joe Horn. And the cost of acquiring these players is well worth the potential payoff.

I've used WR's for my examples, but you can apply this argument to any other position. Brady Quinn, Kevin Kolb, and Brandon Jackson can be had for peanuts in a dynasty league right now. Last year Roddy White and LenDale White were busts. If you acquired either of them a year ago, you've had the opportunity to move them for a net profit.

 
This is something I've mentioned before, but there's an odd phenomenon that happens every year with rookies. The guys who show flashes of talent rocket up the boards (Bowe, Gonzalez, Rice, Ginn) while the guys who don't do squat plummet (Meachem, Jarrett, Hill, Jac. Jones). This is definitely fair to an extent, but I think people tend to jump the gun by labeling slow starters "busts."

My rule with prospects is that you shouldn't conclude they suck until they definitively prove that they suck. Just because a guy sits on the bench for a year or two behind mediocre veterans doesn't mean he sucks. He might be a great player who just hasn't had an opportunity to show it. Chad Johnson is the perfect example of this. No one was hyping him after his rookie year. I'm sure he went behind Rod Gardner and David Terrell in every dynasty draft. Yet once he got an opportunity to play in the middle of his second season, he started performing on a Pro Bowl level.

This sort of thing happens more often than you might think. So rather than write off every rookie who doesn't put up stats right away, I make a habit of targeting the "busts" who haven't done much. Today's Jason Hill and Devard Darling could be tomorrow's Jerricho Cotchery and Joe Horn. And the cost of acquiring these players is well worth the potential payoff.
Great post EBF. Here are two very unpopular FF players who make your point:Chris Henry outperformed Lendale White by any measure you want to choose as a rookie (Y/C, Y/R, TDs/Touch, DVOA - etc), and Chris Johnson is basically zero threat to become a #1 back as long as Fisher is the coach, yet Henry's available for next to nothing in most leagues. Throw in Lendale's borderline character problems and he could get a shot sooner rather than later if White's on-field performance doesn't improve.

Brandon Jackson's 1st three games played last year: 38 rushes, 97 yards (2.5/rush); 11 receptions, 81 yards (7.4/rec)

Brandon Jackson's last three games played in 2007: 31 carries, 172 yards (5.6/rush); 4 receptions, 48 yards (12.0/rec)

And his coach has gone out of his way EVERY time he's spoken about him to talk about what a raw deal he got at the start of the season, how what you saw at the end of the year was indicative of his talent, that he was the most improved player from the end of 2007 to minicamp, that his weight room work had been outstanding.

No one knows what'll happen with these two. Ryan Grant could keep Jackson buried for so long he never gets a shot (though this almost never seems to happen in the NFL), or he could be too soft. White could start performing like a 1st round talent and put his character problems behind him. The Titans could bring someone else in and cut Henry.

The point isn't that these guys are future stars. It's that it's too soon to write them off, but many people have done just that. Take advantage of enough situations like these two and sooner or later you'll hit on some very cheap FF difference makers.

And finding even one Chad Johnson or Ahman Green for peanuts gives you an enormous advantage when it comes to fielding a FF team. It's like you got another 1st round pick in a startup draft.

 
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This is something I've mentioned before, but there's an odd phenomenon that happens every year with rookies. The guys who show flashes of talent rocket up the boards (Bowe, Gonzalez, Rice, Ginn) while the guys who don't do squat plummet (Meachem, Jarrett, Hill, Jac. Jones). This is definitely fair to an extent, but I think people tend to jump the gun by labeling slow starters "busts."

My rule with prospects is that you shouldn't conclude they suck until they definitively prove that they suck. Just because a guy sits on the bench for a year or two behind mediocre veterans doesn't mean he sucks. He might be a great player who just hasn't had an opportunity to show it. Chad Johnson is the perfect example of this. No one was hyping him after his rookie year. I'm sure he went behind Rod Gardner and David Terrell in every dynasty draft. Yet once he got an opportunity to play in the middle of his second season, he started performing on a Pro Bowl level.

This sort of thing happens more often than you might think. So rather than write off every rookie who doesn't put up stats right away, I make a habit of targeting the "busts" who haven't done much. Today's Jason Hill and Devard Darling could be tomorrow's Jerricho Cotchery and Joe Horn. And the cost of acquiring these players is well worth the potential payoff.
Great post EBF. Here are two very unpopular FF players who make your point:Chris Henry outperformed Lendale White by any measure you want to choose as a rookie (Y/C, Y/R, TDs/Touch, DVOA - etc), and Chris Johnson is basically zero threat to become a #1 back as long as Fisher is the coach, yet Henry's available for next to nothing in most leagues. Throw in Lendale's borderline character problems and he could get a shot sooner rather than later if White's on-field performance doesn't improve.

Brandon Jackson's 1st three games played last year: 38 rushes, 97 yards (2.5/rush); 11 receptions, 81 yards (7.4/rec)

Brandon Jackson's last three games played in 2007: 31 carries, 172 yards (5.6/rush); 4 receptions, 48 yards (12.0/rec)

And his coach has gone out of his way EVERY time he's spoken about him to talk about what a raw deal he got at the start of the season, how what you saw at the end of the year was indicative of his talent, that he was the most improved player from the end of 2007 to minicamp, that his weight room work had been outstanding.

No one knows what'll happen with these two. Ryan Grant could keep Jackson buried for so long he never gets a shot (though this almost never seems to happen in the NFL), or he could be too soft. White could start performing like a 1st round talent and put his character problems behind him. The Titans could bring someone else in and cut Henry.

The point isn't that these guys are future stars. It's that it's too soon to write them off, but many people have done just that. Take advantage of enough situations like these two and sooner or later you'll hit on some very cheap FF difference makers.

And finding even one Chad Johnson or Ahman Green for peanuts gives you an enormous advantage when it comes to fielding a FF team. It's like you got another 1st round pick in a startup draft.
Those two guys fit the bill to a certain extent. Both were early draft picks with elite combine numbers. The big difference for me with Henry is that he wasn't a very good college player at all. I think he's a classic case of a team with a crap scouting department reaching for a workout warrior. He really should've been a 5th-6th round pick. Still, if you like him then you can certainly justify taking a flyer on him in the late rounds. His value is rock bottom right now.

Jackson is more intriguing because he showed me a little more on the field in college than Henry ever did. There's a very real possibility that Ryan Grant is a fluke, which opens the door for Jackson to potentially emerge down the road. He's been falling to the 10t-15th range of my drafts. I think he's a good gamble in that range if you need a sleeper RB.

In general, value seems to flow against public opinion. Last year everyone was overly high on Brandon Jackson and he was a terrible gamble at his ADP. This year it's the opposite. Everyone is overly down on him and he's a fair gamble at his ADP. These kind of values are out there to be had every year.

 
* Old reliable WRs are always passed over for flavor of the week young guns. Rinse and repeat every year.

* If you see a thread with massive amounts of the herd saying a certain player sucks. Huge bargain. People love to claim when they are right and conveniently forget when they are wrong. FF owners are usually more wrong than right.

* Pre-season puff players. Sell, sell, sell. Everyone is looking for the coolest thing since sliced bread, they want to say they were right about a player. They are usually wrong. Huge value in letting them take the sleeper and you taking the production player.

 
The first thing, I think, is to be willing to keep an open mind as to where value can come from. I've read message boards for 10 years and have been in leagues for a million years, and one thing that is an absolute given is that MOST people are closed minded. You have to be able to rise above the naysayers and think for yourself, and if you can't do that you will always be talked out of taking a chance that pays off big (by the way, this is just as true in life).

Can a WR who was just a 2nd round pick go from a rookie year of 21-272-3 to a soph year of 119-1781-13? Can an undrafted TE who was better known as a basketball player go from a rookie year of 24-389-2 to a soph year of 81-964-13 and continue on to become the perennial #1 guy at his position for years? Can a 7th round WR, the 252nd player taken in his draft class, surpass 1st and 2nd round WRs already on the roster to start in his rookie season, and post 168-2240-19 in his first 30 games? Can a UDFA running back, cut by the team he's been with for 4 years because a young stud RB was drafted, find a new team where he goes on to put up over 6500 total yards and 56 TDs the next three years? Isaac Bruce, Antonio Gates, Marques Colston, and Priest Holmes did those things, and on what were generally average to poor teams before they emerged. We also know the Warner story, from NFL cut to grocery clerk to arena league to NFL MVP. We know Brady was a 6th round pick. We know UDFA Ryan Grant was not on a roster when 2007 began, then languished until week 8 while Wynn, Jackson, and Morency took their turns, then went on to 950 yards and 8 TDs in 10 games once he got his chance. Terrell Davis was a 6th rounder. And on and on.

You find value first and foremost by keeping your eyes and your mind open to possibilities, reading the news DAILY, and ignoring those who are always going to be there, in the majority, to tell you it can't happen.

But that's vague, isn't it. What we'd love is rules of thumb. We'd love something quick and easy, some sort of bell or siren that will go off to tell us when and where to find value. Problem is, as with most things in life, there are basically two ways for good things to happen to you in terms of finding value others haven't already found ahead of you. One, you can get lucky. And two, you can obtain knowledge. The good news is that the more knowledge you obtain, the luckier you become. I guarantee you that nobody landed Colston in 2006 by luck alone. No one said "I think I'll take this 7th round WR out of Hofstra in my rookie draft just for fun." No, the guys who got him already had some knowledge about him, about what was happening in camp and what coach Payton was saying, then they took the chance, and then got lucky. Bottom line is that value can come from anywhere, so know the landscape -- all of it -- or someone more prepared than you will be the one who gets lucky.

You can't control the luck, but you can gain the knowledge and put yourself in position to get lucky. There's where the work comes in. Here's what I do during every offseason:

1. I DO NOT take at face value a player's prior year(s) stats. I look at each team as a whole, one by one, taking into account how the prior season evolved, who was injured and when, how and why roles developed or changed through the year, etc., to gain as much knowledge as possible as to the REASONS behind prior year stats. Numbers are not information. They only become information if you understand their meaning and can interpret them correctly. You absolutely have to take the time and effort to know why the numbers were what they were or you will fall into the category of 95% of FFers who basically don't know why they draft who they draft except that this guy had better numbers than that guy, or they follow someone else's list, not knowing if the expert went to the effort I described. It's better than nothing, but will never make you better than average. And, I can tell you from experience that most experts, including most FBG staff who post rankings, don't go to that effort. Finally, it has to be remembered that a statistical sampling of 16 (or often fewer) games may not have as much predictive value as you'd like. One missed arm tackle can mean a 95 yard run and a TD and a much fatter YPC, whereas if that tackle had been made all of those stats would be wiped out. While some love to analyze the numbers to death, the painful truth is that statistics can and often do lie, and don't mean as much as we'd like to believe when it comes to looking at the following year.

2. With last year understood as well as I can understand it, I tuck it away and proceed to this year. Yes, tuck it away to draw on and refer to as a frame of reference (along with the year before that and the year before that, as you begin to accumulate years of doing this), but I don't overemphasize last year when looking at this year. This is where being open minded is very important. Again, look at every team as a whole. What players have been added? Who left? How are roles changing as players age, some coming into their prime and some getting long in tooth? Who is returning from injury and how will the type of injury affect the early part of the season? Know the good OLs and the bad ones, pay attention to the injuries there too. As the OL goes, the team goes. Really really really learn as much as you can about projected roles for 2008. I don't just mean who is RB1 and RB2, WR1 and WR2, but how heavily someone will be relied on or how spread out the workload is expected to be. That's what matters. Don't trust that it'll be like last year. Know what's going on today. Spend 80% of your time on roles and 20% of your time on guessing statistics and you'll be much better off than doing the opposite. And, again, be open minded about those roles. Know the expected roles but also know they can change fast. It's often the 3rd RB (or worse) on a depth chart that emerges when there is an injury. Know who that player is. Neither Grant GB or Graham TB would have been projected as starter when the starter went down, but you had to know who they were and be open to the possibility that they could get a chance. Also think about the bigger picture, at a higher level. Who do you trust in front offices to build and maintain winning offenses? Polian or Millen? Parcells or Angelo? AJ Smith or today's Al Davis? What coaching changes (HC and OC) will affect team and offensive philosophies?

3. Keep up with the news every day once the preseason has begun and throughout the regular season, not just the stats from the prior week. For all I know Tyler Thigpen or Courtney Taylor or Ryan Torain could be stars this year. Not likely right now, but if you don't even know who these guys are and aren't keeping up once the season has begun to know if they are setting up to be in position to emerge due to injury or ineffectiveness, someone else will strengthen their team by grabbing them instead of you. Know who is dropping balls, who is turning heads with their limited opportunities, who gets special mention in coaches' Monday pressers. Things change fast. You must be able to adapt fast. Most NFL players are talented. It's a league of opportunity. And remember, ignore the naysayers who don't put in the work but are quick to say "Same old same old, blah blah blah, the new guy's a nobody." They come out of the woodwork when a sleeper is mentioned on this board, but you never hear a peep from them when the sleeper pans out. Learn who can be trusted at FBG (staff are not all equal in dedication, time spent, or talent), on the FBG board, and elsewhere, and also who should be completely ignored.

4. In dynasty leagues, I have begun putting extra emphasis on front offices when it comes to young players. Young in this sense means rookies through about the 3rd year. For example, when Thompson of GB drafts Jordy Nelson at 2/36, I project future success with a lot more confidence than when the Rams' Bill Devaney takes Donnie Avery at 2/33. If AJ Smith trades up specifically to get RB Jacob Hester at 3/69, I'm not in the "Jacob's a nobody" camp. I'm in the "hmmm, that's interesting..." camp. But when Matt Millen waits until 3/64 to take Kevin Smith, letting 7 RBs go to other teams in the first two rounds when he badly needs a RB, I'm not saying "That wily Millen, what a value!" I've got red flags going up.

Well, that was pretty long winded but I could go on with a lot more. I'd better stop. It's already so long no one will read it. :excited:

 
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The first thing, I think, is to be willing to keep an open mind as to where value can come from. I've read message boards for 10 years and have been in leagues for a million years, and one thing that is an absolute given is that MOST people are closed minded. You have to be able to rise above the naysayers and think for yourself, and if you can't do that you will always be talked out of taking a chance that pays off big (by the way, this is just as true in life).Can a WR who was just a 2nd round pick go from a rookie year of 21-272-3 to a soph year of 119-1781-13? Can an undrafted TE who was better known as a basketball player go from a rookie year of 24-389-2 to a soph year of 81-964-13 and continue on to become the perennial #1 guy at his position for years? Can a 7th round WR, the 252nd player taken in his draft class, surpass 1st and 2nd round WRs already on the roster to start in his rookie season, and post 168-2240-19 in his first 30 games? Can a UDFA running back, cut by the team he's been with for 4 years because a young stud RB was drafted, find a new team where he goes on to put up over 6500 total yards and 56 TDs the next three years? Isaac Bruce, Antonio Gates, Marques Colston, and Priest Holmes did those things, and on what were generally average to poor teams before they emerged. We also know the Warner story, from NFL cut to grocery clerk to arena league to NFL MVP. We know Brady was a 6th round pick. We know UDFA Ryan Grant was not on a roster when 2007 began, then languished until week 8 while Wynn, Jackson, and Morency took their turns, then went on to 950 yards and 8 TDs in 10 games once he got his chance. Terrell Davis was a 6th rounder. And on and on.You find value first and foremost by keeping your eyes and your mind open to possibilities, reading the news DAILY, and ignoring those who are always going to be there, in the majority, to tell you it can't happen.But that's vague, isn't it. What we'd love is rules of thumb. We'd love something quick and easy, some sort of bell or siren that will go off to tell us when and where to find value. Problem is, as with most things in life, there are basically two ways for good things to happen to you in terms of finding value others haven't already found ahead of you. One, you can get lucky. And two, you can obtain knowledge. The good news is that the more knowledge you obtain, the luckier you become. I guarantee you that nobody landed Colston in 2006 by luck alone. No one said "I think I'll take this 7th round WR out of Hofstra in my rookie draft just for fun." No, the guys who got him already had some knowledge about him, about what was happening in camp and what coach Payton was saying, then they took the chance, and then got lucky. Bottom line is that value can come from anywhere, so know the landscape -- all of it -- or someone more prepared than you will be the one who gets lucky.You can't control the luck, but you can gain the knowledge and put yourself in position to get lucky. There's where the work comes in. Here's what I do during every offseason:1. I DO NOT take at face value a player's prior year(s) stats. I look at each team as a whole, one by one, taking into account how the prior season evolved, who was injured and when, how and why roles developed or changed through the year, etc., to gain as much knowledge as possible as to the REASONS behind prior year stats. Numbers are not information. They only become information if you understand their meaning and can interpret them correctly. You absolutely have to take the time and effort to know why the numbers were what they were or you will fall into the category of 98% of FFers who basically don't know why they draft who they draft except that this guy had better numbers than that guy. It's better than nothing, but will never make you better than average. Finally, it has to be remembered that a statistical sampling of 16 (or often fewer) games may not have as much predictive value as you'd like. One missed arm tackle can mean a 95 yard run and a TD and a much fatter YPC, whereas if that tackle had been made all of those stats would be wiped out. While some love to analyze the numbers to death, the painful truth is that statistics can and often do lie, and don't mean as much as we'd like to believe when it comes to looking at the following year.2. With last year understood as well as I can understand it, I tuck it away and proceed to this year. Yes, tuck it away to draw on and refer to as a frame of reference (along with the year before that and the year before that, as you begin to accumulate years of doing this), but I don't overemphasize last year when looking at this year. This is where being open minded is very important. Again, look at every team as a whole. What players have been added? Who left? How are roles changing as players age, some coming into their prime and some getting long in tooth? Who is returning from injury and how will the type of injury affect the early part of the season? Know the good OLs and the bad ones, pay attention to the injuries there too. As the OL goes, the team goes. Really really really learn as much as you can about projected roles for 2008. Spend 80% of your time on roles and 20% of your time on guessing statistics and you'll be much better off than doing the opposite. And, again, be open minded about those roles. Know the expected roles but also know they can change fast. It's often the 3rd RB (or worse) on a depth chart that emerges when there is an injury. Know who that player is. Neither Grant GB or Graham TB would have been projected as starter when the starter went down, but you had to know who they were and be open to the possibility that they could get a chance. At a higher level, who do you trust in front offices to build and maintain winning offenses? Polian or Millen? Parcells or Angelo? AJ Smith or today's Al Davis? What coaching changes (HC and OC) will affect team and offensive philosophies? 3. Keep up with the news every day once the preseason has begun and throughout the regular season, not just the stats from the prior week. For all I know Tyler Thigpen or Courtney Taylor or Ryan Torain could be stars this year. Not likely right now, but if you don't even know who theses guys are and aren't keeping up once the season has begun to know if they are setting up to be in position to emerge due to injury or ineffectiveness, someone else will strengthen their team by grabbing them instead of you. Know who is dropping balls, who is turning heads with their limited opportunities, who gets special mention in coaches' Monday pressers. Things change fast. You must be able to adapt fast. And remember, ignore the naysayers who don't put in the work but are quick to say "Same old same old, blah blah blah, the new guy's a nobody." They come out of the woodwork when a sleeper is mentioned on this board, but you never hear a peep from them when the sleeper pans out. Learn who can be trusted at FBG (staff are not all equal in dedication, time spent, or talent), on the FBG board, and elsewhere, and also who should be completely ignored. 4. In dynasty leagues, I have begun putting extra emphasis on front offices when it comes to young players. Young in this sense means rookies through about the 3rd year. For example, when Thompson of GB drafts Jordy Nelson at 2/36, I project future success with a lot more confidence than when the Rams' Bill Devaney takes Donnie Avery at 2/33. If AJ Smith trades up specifically to get RB Jacob Hester at 3/69, I'm not in the "Jacob's a nobody" camp. I'm in the "hmmm, that's interesting..." camp. But when Matt Millen waits until 3/64 to take Kevin Smith, letting 7 RBs go to other teams in the first two rounds when he badly needs a RB, I'm not saying "That wily Millen, what a value!" I've got red flags going up.Well, that was pretty long winded but I could go on with a lot more. I'd better stop. It's already so long no one will read it. :unsure:
NOT :D but GREAT POSTING!!!
 
The first thing, I think, is to be willing to keep an open mind as to where value can come from. I've read message boards for 10 years and have been in leagues for a million years, and one thing that is an absolute given is that MOST people are closed minded. You have to be able to rise above the naysayers and think for yourself, and if you can't do that you will always be talked out of taking a chance that pays off big (by the way, this is just as true in life).Can a WR who was just a 2nd round pick go from a rookie year of 21-272-3 to a soph year of 119-1781-13? Can an undrafted TE who was better known as a basketball player go from a rookie year of 24-389-2 to a soph year of 81-964-13 and continue on to become the perennial #1 guy at his position for years? Can a 7th round WR, the 252nd player taken in his draft class, surpass 1st and 2nd round WRs already on the roster to start in his rookie season, and post 168-2240-19 in his first 30 games? Can a UDFA running back, cut by the team he's been with for 4 years because a young stud RB was drafted, find a new team where he goes on to put up over 6500 total yards and 56 TDs the next three years? Isaac Bruce, Antonio Gates, Marques Colston, and Priest Holmes did those things, and on what were generally average to poor teams before they emerged. We also know the Warner story, from NFL cut to grocery clerk to arena league to NFL MVP. We know Brady was a 6th round pick. We know UDFA Ryan Grant was not on a roster when 2007 began, then languished until week 8 while Wynn, Jackson, and Morency took their turns, then went on to 950 yards and 8 TDs in 10 games once he got his chance. Terrell Davis was a 6th rounder. And on and on.You find value first and foremost by keeping your eyes and your mind open to possibilities, reading the news DAILY, and ignoring those who are always going to be there, in the majority, to tell you it can't happen.But that's vague, isn't it. What we'd love is rules of thumb. We'd love something quick and easy, some sort of bell or siren that will go off to tell us when and where to find value. Problem is, as with most things in life, there are basically two ways for good things to happen to you in terms of finding value others haven't already found ahead of you. One, you can get lucky. And two, you can obtain knowledge. The good news is that the more knowledge you obtain, the luckier you become. I guarantee you that nobody landed Colston in 2006 by luck alone. No one said "I think I'll take this 7th round WR out of Hofstra in my rookie draft just for fun." No, the guys who got him already had some knowledge about him, about what was happening in camp and what coach Payton was saying, then they took the chance, and then got lucky. Bottom line is that value can come from anywhere, so know the landscape -- all of it -- or someone more prepared than you will be the one who gets lucky.You can't control the luck, but you can gain the knowledge and put yourself in position to get lucky. There's where the work comes in. Here's what I do during every offseason:1. I DO NOT take at face value a player's prior year(s) stats. I look at each team as a whole, one by one, taking into account how the prior season evolved, who was injured and when, how and why roles developed or changed through the year, etc., to gain as much knowledge as possible as to the REASONS behind prior year stats. Numbers are not information. They only become information if you understand their meaning and can interpret them correctly. You absolutely have to take the time and effort to know why the numbers were what they were or you will fall into the category of 95% of FFers who basically don't know why they draft who they draft except that this guy had better numbers than that guy, or they follow someone else's list, not knowing if the expert went to the effort I described. It's better than nothing, but will never make you better than average. And, I can tell you from experience that most experts, including most FBG staff who post rankings, don't go to that effort. Finally, it has to be remembered that a statistical sampling of 16 (or often fewer) games may not have as much predictive value as you'd like. One missed arm tackle can mean a 95 yard run and a TD and a much fatter YPC, whereas if that tackle had been made all of those stats would be wiped out. While some love to analyze the numbers to death, the painful truth is that statistics can and often do lie, and don't mean as much as we'd like to believe when it comes to looking at the following year.2. With last year understood as well as I can understand it, I tuck it away and proceed to this year. Yes, tuck it away to draw on and refer to as a frame of reference (along with the year before that and the year before that, as you begin to accumulate years of doing this), but I don't overemphasize last year when looking at this year. This is where being open minded is very important. Again, look at every team as a whole. What players have been added? Who left? How are roles changing as players age, some coming into their prime and some getting long in tooth? Who is returning from injury and how will the type of injury affect the early part of the season? Know the good OLs and the bad ones, pay attention to the injuries there too. As the OL goes, the team goes. Really really really learn as much as you can about projected roles for 2008. Spend 80% of your time on roles and 20% of your time on guessing statistics and you'll be much better off than doing the opposite. And, again, be open minded about those roles. Know the expected roles but also know they can change fast. It's often the 3rd RB (or worse) on a depth chart that emerges when there is an injury. Know who that player is. Neither Grant GB or Graham TB would have been projected as starter when the starter went down, but you had to know who they were and be open to the possibility that they could get a chance. At a higher level, who do you trust in front offices to build and maintain winning offenses? Polian or Millen? Parcells or Angelo? AJ Smith or today's Al Davis? What coaching changes (HC and OC) will affect team and offensive philosophies? 3. Keep up with the news every day once the preseason has begun and throughout the regular season, not just the stats from the prior week. For all I know Tyler Thigpen or Courtney Taylor or Ryan Torain could be stars this year. Not likely right now, but if you don't even know who theses guys are and aren't keeping up once the season has begun to know if they are setting up to be in position to emerge due to injury or ineffectiveness, someone else will strengthen their team by grabbing them instead of you. Know who is dropping balls, who is turning heads with their limited opportunities, who gets special mention in coaches' Monday pressers. Things change fast. You must be able to adapt fast. And remember, ignore the naysayers who don't put in the work but are quick to say "Same old same old, blah blah blah, the new guy's a nobody." They come out of the woodwork when a sleeper is mentioned on this board, but you never hear a peep from them when the sleeper pans out. Learn who can be trusted at FBG (staff are not all equal in dedication, time spent, or talent), on the FBG board, and elsewhere, and also who should be completely ignored. 4. In dynasty leagues, I have begun putting extra emphasis on front offices when it comes to young players. Young in this sense means rookies through about the 3rd year. For example, when Thompson of GB drafts Jordy Nelson at 2/36, I project future success with a lot more confidence than when the Rams' Bill Devaney takes Donnie Avery at 2/33. If AJ Smith trades up specifically to get RB Jacob Hester at 3/69, I'm not in the "Jacob's a nobody" camp. I'm in the "hmmm, that's interesting..." camp. But when Matt Millen waits until 3/64 to take Kevin Smith, letting 7 RBs go to other teams in the first two rounds when he badly needs a RB, I'm not saying "That wily Millen, what a value!" I've got red flags going up.Well, that was pretty long winded but I could go on with a lot more. I'd better stop. It's already so long no one will read it. :D
Great Post and great FF advise.. I live by these principles...
 
The first thing, I think, is to be willing to keep an open mind as to where value can come from.
This is a huge one. Without fail, every single seasons brings a few big surprises. Some recent ones off the top of my head:- Undrafted Tony Romo becomes a consensus top 5 QB. - 7th round pick Marques Colston puts up consecutive 1,000+ yard seasons in his first two years in the league. - Frank Gore has a better pro career than top 5 picks Ronnie Brown, Cedric Benson, and Cadillac Williams. - Anquan Boldin falls to the second round over concerns about knee injuries, 40 times, and a poor Senior Bowl. He has 1,300+ receiving yards in his rookie season and becomes a perennial Pro Bowl threat.- 6th round pick Tom Brady takes over after an injury to Drew Bledsoe and eventually wins multiple Super Bowls and becomes the best QB in the hobby. When it comes to FF, you can expect the unexpected. Crazy things happen every year. So if someone gets on the soap box and says Xavier Omon will be a top 10 RB this season, I'll at least consider the possibility. It's pretty difficult to anticipate the huge surprises, but there are sometimes clues and hints. I know the major red flag that I ignored with Colston was when he was on the field getting a red zone look with the first team offense during a preseason MNF game. That coupled with the trade of Stallworth should've sent my spider senses tingling. Any time a team clears a path for a guy to get PT, that means they must be high on him. You'd be wise to pay attention in those cases. Other times finding a diamond in the rough is little more than dumb luck. If you know a guy is in line to see some playing time because the starter ahead of him got injured, you should strongly consider taking a flyer on him. That's how people got Graham, Grant, Fargas, and D. Anderson last season.
 
Good stuff in here, for sure.

I don't like to quote long posts, but CP's was :lmao: .

Just like he said, things change fast. That's been true for years.

What also changes are rules of thumb. Can you always wait on QB? QBs a dime a dozen? Tell that to all the "Team Bradys" last year.

What about stud RB theory - thing that might change with RBBC becoming the norm?

Did the salary cap change things with rooks getting more chances? What about the 5-yard chuck PI rule - think that affected TEs and WRs?

The old rules should be challenged as well - there's a theory about when a player drops off in value for age and touches, but what about player conditioning since that study? What about the RBBC and it keeping older players fresher?

Fresh eyes / perspective is key. Let everyone else chase last year's rules of thumb and find value as a result.

 
The big difference for me with Henry is that he wasn't a very good college player at all. I think he's a classic case of a team with a crap scouting department reaching for a workout warrior. He really should've been a 5th-6th round pick. Still, if you like him then you can certainly justify taking a flyer on him in the late rounds. His value is rock bottom right now.
I haven't gone far enough with this yet to say for sure, but...A guy that gets drafted with relatively little college production appears to be a MUCH better bet to pan out into a good player than other players drafted in a similar position provided there aren't other reasons for them to fail (i.e. they fit my models). I've got a ways to go with this piece, but I think what's happening is that scouts/GMs are seeing great measurables and/or exceptional talent, but aren't comfortable with their judgment since they don't have a long college history to confirm their observation. So the guy falls further in the draft than he should have. I could write a whole essay on what I think I've found here, but that's the gist of it.It's completely possible that what I'm trying to generalize only applies to some players with low collegiate production, but right now I haven't found much difference in terms of the reasons the player didn't put up big college stats. If they get themselves drafted in a good position, and fit the models, but don't have the college stats to back that up they're usually BETTER than you'd expect. Not worse.btw... a guy like Arman Shields who played at a small school AND missed most of his senior year, but managed to get himself drafted in the 4th round anyhow? You have to have insane talent to have that happen. He also happens to fit my WR model. No guarantees, but he's miles more likely to turn into an elite NFL WR than almost anyone else taken in the 4th round.
 
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Good stuff in here, for sure.I don't like to quote long posts, but CP's was :lmao: .Just like he said, things change fast. That's been true for years.What also changes are rules of thumb. Can you always wait on QB? QBs a dime a dozen? Tell that to all the "Team Bradys" last year.What about stud RB theory - thing that might change with RBBC becoming the norm?Did the salary cap change things with rooks getting more chances? What about the 5-yard chuck PI rule - think that affected TEs and WRs?The old rules should be challenged as well - there's a theory about when a player drops off in value for age and touches, but what about player conditioning since that study? What about the RBBC and it keeping older players fresher?Fresh eyes / perspective is key. Let everyone else chase last year's rules of thumb and find value as a result.
Excellent points JP...the ability to change the mindset as the game evolves is now a necesity.
 
The big difference for me with Henry is that he wasn't a very good college player at all. I think he's a classic case of a team with a crap scouting department reaching for a workout warrior. He really should've been a 5th-6th round pick. Still, if you like him then you can certainly justify taking a flyer on him in the late rounds. His value is rock bottom right now.
I haven't gone far enough with this yet to say for sure, but...A guy that gets drafted with relatively little college production appears to be a MUCH better bet to pan out into a good player than other players drafted in a similar position provided there aren't other reasons for them to fail (i.e. they fit my models). I've got a ways to go with this piece, but I think what's happening is that scouts/GMs are seeing great measurables and/or exceptional talent, but aren't comfortable with their judgment since they don't have a long college history to confirm their observation. So the guy falls further in the draft than he should have. I could write a whole essay on what I think I've found here, but that's the gist of it.It's completely possible that what I'm trying to generalize only applies to some players with low collegiate production, but right now I haven't found much difference in terms of the reasons the player didn't put up big college stats. If they get themselves drafted in a good position, and fit the models, but don't have the college stats to back that up they're usually BETTER than you'd expect. Not worse.btw... a guy like Arman Shields who played at a small school AND missed most of his senior year, but managed to get himself drafted in the 4th round anyhow? You have to have insane talent to have that happen. He also happens to fit my WR model. No guarantees, but he's miles more likely to turn into an elite NFL WR than almost anyone else taken in the 4th round.
I understand having faith in the math. As I've mentioned a few times, I'm a big proponent of stockpiling high draft pick prospects in the mid-late rounds of dynasty drafts. Since I know that roughly 25-35% of these guys will pan out, I can pretty much conclude that by drafting 3-4 of them, I have an expected yield of 1 solid player. What's surprising is that it's not always the guy you expect who pans out. If you try to get smart and only draft 1-2 prospects, you might end up with nothing. A few years back I took Charles Rogers and Tyrone Calico in an initial dynasty draft. I was pretty high on both of those guys and I could've stopped there, but since I had faith in my system, I kept stockpiling prospects. That's a good thing because if I hadn't gotten Anquan Boldin in the 20th round, it all would've been a wash. A similar thing happened in the HA1 draft. I picked up Chad Jackson and Matt Jones in the 8th and 9th round. I thought those guys were solid developmental prospects, but it was actually Santonio Holmes in the 10th round who became a star for me even though I wasn't as high on him. My point here is that sometimes you have to look at a prospect and, even if you don't especially like him, say to yourself "Well, this guy is a rookie who was chosen in the top 60 in the draft. The math says I should take him here." That's having faith in the math. That's an argument in favor of RB Chris Henry.However, I do think you have to give some weight to your personal opinion. I just can't fathom Chris Henry becoming a good back in the NFL. Yes, the math might like him because he was a high pick with starter size and a sick combine, but my personal opinion is that he sucks and probably always will suck. MAYBE he can become Justin Fargas eventually. I highly doubt he'll ever be a reliable FF starter though. Ultimately, every player is a unique event in history. It's important to understand trends, but the past is not a flawless predictor of the future. Just because 95% of 7th round picks are crap doesn't mean Marques Colston is crap. Just because most 2nd round picks with elite combine numbers aren't crap doesn't mean Chris Henry isn't crap.I have a lot of faith in the math, but I don't have absolute faith in it. If my gut screams loud enough that Chris Henry is crap and Adrian Arrington is a worthwhile sleeper, I will listen. So in the case of a guy like Chris Henry, where all the tea leaves tell me he sucks, I would be inclined to lean in that direction despite what the math says. P.S. I was able to trade Chad Jackson and a 4th for Trent Edwards and 3rd last season. I also dealt Matt Jones for a 2008 1st, which I eventually traded for a 2009 1st. So even though I got burned by those two in the draft, I got something out of it. That's another lesson for another day: know when to cut bait. :-)
 
I have a lot of faith in the math, but I don't have absolute faith in it. If my gut screams loud enough that Chris Henry is crap and Adrian Arrington is a worthwhile sleeper, I will listen. So in the case of a guy like Chris Henry, where all the tea leaves tell me he sucks, I would be inclined to lean in that direction despite what the math says.
You know, this is an area where I have real difficulty trying to convey to others why I have a certain opinion on this or that guy. In another thread this morning I mentioned Beck will start, not McCown and certainly not Henne (though I do think Henne is the guy they want to pan out for 2009 and beyond). So jurb asks how I can possibly know when training camp hasn't started, and I really can't give a reasoned answer. Teams have let rookies learn from the bench, other teams have let them gain game experience right away. But my instinct tells me in this case that Beck is the guy, and it's not just a coin flip kind of guess.

I really think there's something to having been messing with FF so many years that I sometimes see through a lot of stuff, see what's real, see how things will unfold even though I can't explain how I see it. I'm wrong at times, sure, but I'm right much more often and I've learned to trust myself. Conversely, those times I trust another opinion or source over my own gut I usually live to regret it. I don't mean to be smug or arrogant. There's just a sense that develops sometimes. Not about everything, not all the time, but when it does tell me things I have to listen to it.

Finding sleeper value is a 'kiss enough frogs and you'll eventually get a prince' deal, but the trick is to limit how many frogs you have to kiss and throw back, and that's a hard thing to explain how to do. I know Meachem is going to be a great value, and I haven't wavered from that even during the darkest times last year when almost no one remained who believed. I know Mike Walker JAC will be a great value, and will probably be a ppr machine in 2009. But I can't prove either of these guys will do what I believe they will do. I don't blame others for doubting, but I'm not in doubt. I just wish the 'gut' or instinct or 6th sense was there whenever I wanted to call it up for any player. That would be really nice.

 
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What about stud RB theory - thing that might change with RBBC becoming the norm?
It's already happened. It's a passing league. Especially PPR leagues. My league, for example, had 4 RBs in the top 30 at end of season compared to 10 WRs.I loaded up on WRs last year with very little regard to RBs and "dominated" my league. It wasn't even close. A head-to-head league, and had a run of 12-0 at one point. As soon as our draft was over, the guy next to me asked why I took so many receivers. I simply replied, "ask me again in December".
 
I really think there's something to having been messing with FF so many years that I sometimes see through a lot of stuff, see what's real, see how things will unfold even though I can't explain how I see it. I'm wrong at times, sure, but I'm right much more often and I've learned to trust myself. Conversely, those times I trust another opinion or source over my own gut I usually live to regret it. I don't mean to be smug or arrogant. There's just a sense that develops sometimes. Not about everything, not all the time, but when it does tell me things I have to listen to it.

Finding sleeper value is a 'kiss enough frogs and you'll eventually get a prince' deal, but the trick is to limit how many frogs you have to kiss and throw back, and that's a hard thing to explain how to do. I know Meachem is going to be a great value, and I haven't wavered from that even during the darkest times last year when almost no one remained who believed. I know Mike Walker JAC will be a great value, and will probably be a ppr machine in 2009. But I can't prove either of these guys will do what I believe they will do. I don't blame others for doubting, but I'm not in doubt. I just wish the 'gut' or instinct or 6th sense was there whenever I wanted to call it up for any player. That would be really nice.
If you haven't read "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell you probably should CP. He describes/explains what you're talking about in great detail. It's a great read.
 
my favorite is getting LAST YEAR'S nuggets THIS YEAR when everyone is focusing on the new draftees

especially the first day NFL picks that you were targetting but didn't make it to you in the draft and then didn't get off to a good start their rookie year and so pushed aside value-wise by their owner...

Russell, Quinn, Beck

BJax, CHenry, THunt, Irons

Meachem, CDavis, Ginn, Jarrett, MWalker, PWilliams, JHill, Higgins

etc

gauge their trade value by their current owner and grab as many as your roster can incubate

you are gonna get some busts but you will hit on one or more of these and you got them for next-to-nothing

another hint is when smart FBGs like couch potato make offers for Chris Taylor don't trade :boxing:

 
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This is a pretty vague question, I search many different avenues to find value. Rather than provide hypotheticals, I'll cite recent examples (last year)

Clinton Portis - many had him pegged as an injury hazard entering camp and then when the knee tendinitis concern emerged panic mode began settling in, something I had remembered from the previous season was Portis being injured in preseason and then venting after the injury that he shouldn't out there, these games don't mean anything, and he was never healthy again. When this knee tendinitis item emerged and others began de-valuing him, I pounced - this "injury" reaked of BS from the beginning. Glad I did, my 3rd round pick produced like a 1st round stud.

Ben Roethlisberger - Bruce Arians is a pass happy OC, the OLine was deteriorating, Parker is not a goal line back, no goal line option was brought in, and many had already devalued Big Ben due to his poor 06 forgetting the fact that he was in a near life threatening motorcycle accident and an emergency appendectomy before week 1. I wasn't expecting elite production like I did with Portis, that was a pleasant surprise - low end QB1 was my expectation, but this was another value item I identified.

TJ Houshmandzadeh - He was creeping into the WR1 picture already, but I found many were still valuing Chad Johnson a round and a half to two rounds higher than Housh in large part because of raw production, the fact that "Chad's the #1," and Housh's overall numbers were lagging due to two missed games. What they did not see was Ocho scored most of his points in a 2 week period midseason 06 and was a headache the rest of the season - week to week Housh was a more reliable option, in fact his PPG was in the top 10 in non-ppr and it may have been in the top 5 in ppr (the exact number escapes me right now). He was a WR1 at a WR2 price.

There are several others, but these are the ones that immediately came to mind as they were on several of my teams last year.

 
Another kudos to Couch Potato for his excellent and thorough post. Two items in particular that he mentioned are ones that I look at every year... impact of coaching changes, and impact of offensive line changes.

 
What about stud RB theory - thing that might change with RBBC becoming the norm?
It's already happened. It's a passing league. Especially PPR leagues. My league, for example, had 4 RBs in the top 30 at end of season compared to 10 WRs.I loaded up on WRs last year with very little regard to RBs and "dominated" my league. It wasn't even close. A head-to-head league, and had a run of 12-0 at one point. As soon as our draft was over, the guy next to me asked why I took so many receivers. I simply replied, "ask me again in December".
To much emphasis on last year here. A trend is not a trend because of 1 year.
 
Also while this may be minor it ties into what others have said...

When following news, keep an eye out for small details that may be important to in-season success. For me, I targeted Roethlisberger in every draft last season because I had read that not only had he sat down with Arians but that Bruce & Ben had worked on the playbook together including terminology. Common sense told me that a QB who knows the terminology (esp. through writing it) should have success although I wasn't expecting the level he had, like MAC I thought he'd be a solid low QB1.

 
* Old reliable WRs are always passed over for flavor of the week young guns. Rinse and repeat every year.
:thumbup: In a similar vein, in one league last year I traded this year's first round pick (turned out to be 1.07) for Torry Holt. And a few months ago I traded next year's first round pick for Hines Ward.
 
Excellent stuff in here. One thing I look for in young RB's, especially rookies, are ones who can pass block. They tend to see the field sooner and get more opportunities than ones who struggle. Selvin Young is a great example here.

 
The first thing, I think, is to be willing to keep an open mind as to where value can come from. I've read message boards for 10 years and have been in leagues for a million years, and one thing that is an absolute given is that MOST people are closed minded. You have to be able to rise above the naysayers and think for yourself, and if you can't do that you will always be talked out of taking a chance that pays off big (by the way, this is just as true in life).Can a WR who was just a 2nd round pick go from a rookie year of 21-272-3 to a soph year of 119-1781-13? Can an undrafted TE who was better known as a basketball player go from a rookie year of 24-389-2 to a soph year of 81-964-13 and continue on to become the perennial #1 guy at his position for years? Can a 7th round WR, the 252nd player taken in his draft class, surpass 1st and 2nd round WRs already on the roster to start in his rookie season, and post 168-2240-19 in his first 30 games? Can a UDFA running back, cut by the team he's been with for 4 years because a young stud RB was drafted, find a new team where he goes on to put up over 6500 total yards and 56 TDs the next three years? Isaac Bruce, Antonio Gates, Marques Colston, and Priest Holmes did those things, and on what were generally average to poor teams before they emerged. We also know the Warner story, from NFL cut to grocery clerk to arena league to NFL MVP. We know Brady was a 6th round pick. We know UDFA Ryan Grant was not on a roster when 2007 began, then languished until week 8 while Wynn, Jackson, and Morency took their turns, then went on to 950 yards and 8 TDs in 10 games once he got his chance. Terrell Davis was a 6th rounder. And on and on.You find value first and foremost by keeping your eyes and your mind open to possibilities, reading the news DAILY, and ignoring those who are always going to be there, in the majority, to tell you it can't happen.But that's vague, isn't it. What we'd love is rules of thumb. We'd love something quick and easy, some sort of bell or siren that will go off to tell us when and where to find value. Problem is, as with most things in life, there are basically two ways for good things to happen to you in terms of finding value others haven't already found ahead of you. One, you can get lucky. And two, you can obtain knowledge. The good news is that the more knowledge you obtain, the luckier you become. I guarantee you that nobody landed Colston in 2006 by luck alone. No one said "I think I'll take this 7th round WR out of Hofstra in my rookie draft just for fun." No, the guys who got him already had some knowledge about him, about what was happening in camp and what coach Payton was saying, then they took the chance, and then got lucky. Bottom line is that value can come from anywhere, so know the landscape -- all of it -- or someone more prepared than you will be the one who gets lucky.You can't control the luck, but you can gain the knowledge and put yourself in position to get lucky. There's where the work comes in. Here's what I do during every offseason:1. I DO NOT take at face value a player's prior year(s) stats. I look at each team as a whole, one by one, taking into account how the prior season evolved, who was injured and when, how and why roles developed or changed through the year, etc., to gain as much knowledge as possible as to the REASONS behind prior year stats. Numbers are not information. They only become information if you understand their meaning and can interpret them correctly. You absolutely have to take the time and effort to know why the numbers were what they were or you will fall into the category of 95% of FFers who basically don't know why they draft who they draft except that this guy had better numbers than that guy, or they follow someone else's list, not knowing if the expert went to the effort I described. It's better than nothing, but will never make you better than average. And, I can tell you from experience that most experts, including most FBG staff who post rankings, don't go to that effort. Finally, it has to be remembered that a statistical sampling of 16 (or often fewer) games may not have as much predictive value as you'd like. One missed arm tackle can mean a 95 yard run and a TD and a much fatter YPC, whereas if that tackle had been made all of those stats would be wiped out. While some love to analyze the numbers to death, the painful truth is that statistics can and often do lie, and don't mean as much as we'd like to believe when it comes to looking at the following year.2. With last year understood as well as I can understand it, I tuck it away and proceed to this year. Yes, tuck it away to draw on and refer to as a frame of reference (along with the year before that and the year before that, as you begin to accumulate years of doing this), but I don't overemphasize last year when looking at this year. This is where being open minded is very important. Again, look at every team as a whole. What players have been added? Who left? How are roles changing as players age, some coming into their prime and some getting long in tooth? Who is returning from injury and how will the type of injury affect the early part of the season? Know the good OLs and the bad ones, pay attention to the injuries there too. As the OL goes, the team goes. Really really really learn as much as you can about projected roles for 2008. I don't just mean who is RB1 and RB2, WR1 and WR2, but how heavily someone will be relied on or how spread out the workload is expected to be. That's what matters. Don't trust that it'll be like last year. Know what's going on today. Spend 80% of your time on roles and 20% of your time on guessing statistics and you'll be much better off than doing the opposite. And, again, be open minded about those roles. Know the expected roles but also know they can change fast. It's often the 3rd RB (or worse) on a depth chart that emerges when there is an injury. Know who that player is. Neither Grant GB or Graham TB would have been projected as starter when the starter went down, but you had to know who they were and be open to the possibility that they could get a chance. Also think about the bigger picture, at a higher level. Who do you trust in front offices to build and maintain winning offenses? Polian or Millen? Parcells or Angelo? AJ Smith or today's Al Davis? What coaching changes (HC and OC) will affect team and offensive philosophies? 3. Keep up with the news every day once the preseason has begun and throughout the regular season, not just the stats from the prior week. For all I know Tyler Thigpen or Courtney Taylor or Ryan Torain could be stars this year. Not likely right now, but if you don't even know who these guys are and aren't keeping up once the season has begun to know if they are setting up to be in position to emerge due to injury or ineffectiveness, someone else will strengthen their team by grabbing them instead of you. Know who is dropping balls, who is turning heads with their limited opportunities, who gets special mention in coaches' Monday pressers. Things change fast. You must be able to adapt fast. Most NFL players are talented. It's a league of opportunity. And remember, ignore the naysayers who don't put in the work but are quick to say "Same old same old, blah blah blah, the new guy's a nobody." They come out of the woodwork when a sleeper is mentioned on this board, but you never hear a peep from them when the sleeper pans out. Learn who can be trusted at FBG (staff are not all equal in dedication, time spent, or talent), on the FBG board, and elsewhere, and also who should be completely ignored. 4. In dynasty leagues, I have begun putting extra emphasis on front offices when it comes to young players. Young in this sense means rookies through about the 3rd year. For example, when Thompson of GB drafts Jordy Nelson at 2/36, I project future success with a lot more confidence than when the Rams' Bill Devaney takes Donnie Avery at 2/33. If AJ Smith trades up specifically to get RB Jacob Hester at 3/69, I'm not in the "Jacob's a nobody" camp. I'm in the "hmmm, that's interesting..." camp. But when Matt Millen waits until 3/64 to take Kevin Smith, letting 7 RBs go to other teams in the first two rounds when he badly needs a RB, I'm not saying "That wily Millen, what a value!" I've got red flags going up.Well, that was pretty long winded but I could go on with a lot more. I'd better stop. It's already so long no one will read it. :(
One of the best posts I've ever read on this board...it should be pinned.
 
my favorite place to find value are old WRs that nobody wants. I make an effort to end my drafts with these kind of WRs. Derrick Mason really saved me in this one league

it's been said before, but waiting for your QBs is a great way to find value. Always some breakout candidate flying under the radar. To think some auction teams got Big Ben for a $1 last year, that's value!!!

the best way to find value is to follow the offensive lines. it's a position that doesn't boast stats, more of a watch some games and they'll be mentioned. Madden will go on and on about the big guys, he realizes football is won in the trenches. There's a reason they get paid so much, they're crucial to the skill players... they make everyone better. Really can win some money following the lines

 
What about stud RB theory - thing that might change with RBBC becoming the norm?
It's already happened. It's a passing league. Especially PPR leagues. My league, for example, had 4 RBs in the top 30 at end of season compared to 10 WRs.I loaded up on WRs last year with very little regard to RBs and "dominated" my league. It wasn't even close. A head-to-head league, and had a run of 12-0 at one point. As soon as our draft was over, the guy next to me asked why I took so many receivers. I simply replied, "ask me again in December".
To much emphasis on last year here. A trend is not a trend because of 1 year.
Perhaps, but it is something to consider.NFL trends affect fantasy. For example, the advent of the Cover 2 has made corners in that scheme valuable.NFL teams are not above a little group think. If they follow the lead of successful RBBC teams, and get scared off by Shaun Alexander contracts, it could very well affect fantasy.It wouldn't surprise me if we see a trend toward players topping out at 15 carries in a lot of situations. That could very well place a higher emphasis on WR in fantasy football.
 
The big difference for me with Henry is that he wasn't a very good college player at all. I think he's a classic case of a team with a crap scouting department reaching for a workout warrior. He really should've been a 5th-6th round pick. Still, if you like him then you can certainly justify taking a flyer on him in the late rounds. His value is rock bottom right now.
I haven't gone far enough with this yet to say for sure, but...A guy that gets drafted with relatively little college production appears to be a MUCH better bet to pan out into a good player than other players drafted in a similar position provided there aren't other reasons for them to fail (i.e. they fit my models).

I've got a ways to go with this piece, but I think what's happening is that scouts/GMs are seeing great measurables and/or exceptional talent, but aren't comfortable with their judgment since they don't have a long college history to confirm their observation. So the guy falls further in the draft than he should have. I could write a whole essay on what I think I've found here, but that's the gist of it.

It's completely possible that what I'm trying to generalize only applies to some players with low collegiate production, but right now I haven't found much difference in terms of the reasons the player didn't put up big college stats. If they get themselves drafted in a good position, and fit the models, but don't have the college stats to back that up they're usually BETTER than you'd expect. Not worse.

btw... a guy like Arman Shields who played at a small school AND missed most of his senior year, but managed to get himself drafted in the 4th round anyhow? You have to have insane talent to have that happen. He also happens to fit my WR model. No guarantees, but he's miles more likely to turn into an elite NFL WR than almost anyone else taken in the 4th round.
So a WR with mediocre numbers in college but who is blazing fast and is drafted much higher than expected would be a good value? Does Ted Ginn fit your model? Because the bolded portion sounds exactly like him.

 
I like to see favorable coaching changes for a position that I'm targeting.Alex Gibbs will certainly help the Texans' running game. Cam Cameron *should* help McGahee, Chan Gailey should turn around the Chiefs stagnant running game..

conversely, what will Jim Zorn's offense do to Clinton Portis? How will Julius Jones play in a WCO ?

What will happen to Frank Gore under Martz' pass-happy system, will he look like Kevin Jones or more like Marshall Faulk? How will Alex Smith handle the new offense? what happens with Ron Brown and Ricky Williams, will it be a RBBC in Miami with the new coaching staff??

Randy McMichael is a journeyman TE, but one who could enjoy a career year now that Al Saunders is the OC in St Louis.

I also like to look at situations and how teams change from year to year..in no way will Brady approach 50 TDs again: most players who set an NFL record, fail to come close to that stat the following season.. he probably won't throw more than 30 TDs. Manning's totals dropped from 49 TDs in 2004, to 28 the following season...Brady can expect the same drop in stats..Does this mean that Maroney becomes a top 5 RB in 2008 as the Pats become more of a ball control team like they were with Corey Dillon?? It could happen, if so, Maroney could be in for a monster year..Moss' numbers dropped off significantly during the second half of last season, have opposing defenses figured him out ( or have they figured out how to take him away and make someone else beat them)?

 
I love finding value in players other people say are washed up because they got injured. Did this with A. Green and J. Lewis recently.
this was the first thing that I thought of. Most FF'ers have a microwave mentality and run with the herd. Last year I was all over Portis because he was done due to the "emergence of Betts" and his "debilatating knee injuries". This year I'll be watching LJ's situation closely....
 
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Another vote for a :shrug: from Couch Potato. Very well said.

I think it's important to look back at your own history - where your instincts and against-the-grain picks tend to be right, and where your gut acts like a moron. For example, in redrafts, I've had a lot of luck finding good young receivers in the mid and late rounds, and I always seem to draft underperforming RBs in the early rounds. These trends have been consistent, going back to when I first started doing FF in high school. So now I try to trust myself on the former, and lean heavily on second guessing/other people/the exact opposite of what I think for the latter. Easier in theory than practice, IMO.

 
The first thing, I think, is to be willing to keep an open mind as to where value can come from.
This is a huge one. Without fail, every single seasons brings a few big surprises. Some recent ones off the top of my head:- Undrafted Tony Romo becomes a consensus top 5 QB. - 7th round pick Marques Colston puts up consecutive 1,000+ yard seasons in his first two years in the league. - Frank Gore has a better pro career than top 5 picks Ronnie Brown, Cedric Benson, and Cadillac Williams. - Anquan Boldin falls to the second round over concerns about knee injuries, 40 times, and a poor Senior Bowl. He has 1,300+ receiving yards in his rookie season and becomes a perennial Pro Bowl threat.- 6th round pick Tom Brady takes over after an injury to Drew Bledsoe and eventually wins multiple Super Bowls and becomes the best QB in the hobby. When it comes to FF, you can expect the unexpected. Crazy things happen every year. So if someone gets on the soap box and says Xavier Omon will be a top 10 RB this season, I'll at least consider the possibility. It's pretty difficult to anticipate the huge surprises, but there are sometimes clues and hints. I know the major red flag that I ignored with Colston was when he was on the field getting a red zone look with the first team offense during a preseason MNF game. That coupled with the trade of Stallworth should've sent my spider senses tingling. Any time a team clears a path for a guy to get PT, that means they must be high on him. You'd be wise to pay attention in those cases. Other times finding a diamond in the rough is little more than dumb luck. If you know a guy is in line to see some playing time because the starter ahead of him got injured, you should strongly consider taking a flyer on him. That's how people got Graham, Grant, Fargas, and D. Anderson last season.
What's interesting about the cases you mentioned is that they all had the most important thing in football - OPPORTUNITY. Romo - coach liked what he could do and gave finally gave him a chance after weeks of speculationColston - watching the Saints preseason it was becoming clear he was impressing and earning a starting jobGore - got his chance, stayed healthy and got nearly back to the player he was in collegeBoldin - like Gore, got a chance after coming back from injury and ran with itBrady - like Romo, could have been had for peanuts when Bledsoe got hurt
 
This is without doubt the best thread this year. Forget subscribing to it, I'm going to bookmark it.

For my main money league, which is with the same core of players give or take a couple, I review how each owner has drafted in previous years and look for patterns. For example, I know that almost all of the owners in my league are very centered around IDP players and pay very little attention to Tight Ends. I consequently managed to pick up Witten last year and Heap the year before as late as the 10th round.

 
The first thing, I think, is to be willing to keep an open mind as to where value can come from.
This is a huge one. Without fail, every single seasons brings a few big surprises. Some recent ones off the top of my head:- Undrafted Tony Romo becomes a consensus top 5 QB. - 7th round pick Marques Colston puts up consecutive 1,000+ yard seasons in his first two years in the league. - Frank Gore has a better pro career than top 5 picks Ronnie Brown, Cedric Benson, and Cadillac Williams. - Anquan Boldin falls to the second round over concerns about knee injuries, 40 times, and a poor Senior Bowl. He has 1,300+ receiving yards in his rookie season and becomes a perennial Pro Bowl threat.- 6th round pick Tom Brady takes over after an injury to Drew Bledsoe and eventually wins multiple Super Bowls and becomes the best QB in the hobby. When it comes to FF, you can expect the unexpected. Crazy things happen every year. So if someone gets on the soap box and says Xavier Omon will be a top 10 RB this season, I'll at least consider the possibility. It's pretty difficult to anticipate the huge surprises, but there are sometimes clues and hints. I know the major red flag that I ignored with Colston was when he was on the field getting a red zone look with the first team offense during a preseason MNF game. That coupled with the trade of Stallworth should've sent my spider senses tingling. Any time a team clears a path for a guy to get PT, that means they must be high on him. You'd be wise to pay attention in those cases. Other times finding a diamond in the rough is little more than dumb luck. If you know a guy is in line to see some playing time because the starter ahead of him got injured, you should strongly consider taking a flyer on him. That's how people got Graham, Grant, Fargas, and D. Anderson last season.
What's interesting about the cases you mentioned is that they all had the most important thing in football - OPPORTUNITY. Romo - coach liked what he could do and gave finally gave him a chance after weeks of speculationColston - watching the Saints preseason it was becoming clear he was impressing and earning a starting jobGore - got his chance, stayed healthy and got nearly back to the player he was in collegeBoldin - like Gore, got a chance after coming back from injury and ran with itBrady - like Romo, could have been had for peanuts when Bledsoe got hurt
I agree that opportunity is necessary for success, but I also think it's worth noting that good players create opportunities. The Saints didn't have to trade Done Stallworth to make room in the starting lineup for Colston. The Niners didn't have to get rid of Kevan Barlow to make room in the starting lineup for Gore. The Cardinals didn't have to start Anquan Boldin over Bryant Johnson in his rookie season. Sometimes a guy lucks into opportunity due to injury, but other times it's earned by impressive performances in practices and games. I recommend paying attention when a team clears a path to playing time for a player. For example, the Seahawks didn't draft a WR and they made minimal effort to sign DJ Hackett despite not having Deion Branch ready until the middle of the season and despite holdout threats from Bobby Engram. This could be viewed as an endorsement of guys already on the roster (Burleson, Taylor, possibly Obomanu). I think Burleson and Taylor certainly qualify as potential value plays. When a team makes an "active" move to propel one player into an expanded role, it should always get your attention. The release of Byron Leftwich met much criticism last season, but it was really an endorsement of David Garrard and anyone who took a flyer on him has been rewarded with a nice value bump.
 
This is something I've mentioned before, but there's an odd phenomenon that happens every year with rookies. The guys who show flashes of talent rocket up the boards (Bowe, Gonzalez, Rice, Ginn) while the guys who don't do squat plummet (Meachem, Jarrett, Hill, Jac. Jones). This is definitely fair to an extent, but I think people tend to jump the gun by labeling slow starters "busts." Consider what the following quality receivers did in their rookie years:Chad Johnson - 28 catches, 329 yardsSteve Smith - 10 catches, 154 yardsBrandon Marshall - 20 catches, 329 yardsPlaxico Burress - 23 catches, 273 yardsKevin Curtis - 4 catches, 13 yardsSantana Moss - 2 catches, 40 yardsIsaac Bruce - 21 catches, 272 yardsMarty Booker - 19 catches, 219 yardsBernard Berrian - 15 catches, 225 yardsDonald Driver - 3 catches, 31 yardsJerricho Cothcery - 6 catches, 60 yardsHines Ward - 15 catches, 246 yardsAll of these guys eventually achieved FF relevance, and some of them have put up Hall of Fame type numbers. My rule with prospects is that you shouldn't conclude they suck until they definitively prove that they suck. Just because a guy sits on the bench for a year or two behind mediocre veterans doesn't mean he sucks. He might be a great player who just hasn't had an opportunity to show it. Chad Johnson is the perfect example of this. No one was hyping him after his rookie year. I'm sure he went behind Rod Gardner and David Terrell in every dynasty draft. Yet once he got an opportunity to play in the middle of his second season, he started performing on a Pro Bowl level. This sort of thing happens more often than you might think. So rather than write off every rookie who doesn't put up stats right away, I make a habit of targeting the "busts" who haven't done much. Today's Jason Hill and Devard Darling could be tomorrow's Jerricho Cotchery and Joe Horn. And the cost of acquiring these players is well worth the potential payoff. I've used WR's for my examples, but you can apply this argument to any other position. Brady Quinn, Kevin Kolb, and Brandon Jackson can be had for peanuts in a dynasty league right now. Last year Roddy White and LenDale White were busts. If you acquired either of them a year ago, you've had the opportunity to move them for a net profit.
:headbang: Peter King said this on Sirius yesterday (haven't checked to see if its 100% accurate but it sounded true):"Of the 34 WRs drafted in the first round this decade, only 3 have caught 60 or more passes their first season".Most of us know that WR's usually do not yield good stats as rookies, but they still seem to get written off prematurely in FF circles.
 

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