What happend to Moreno? (1 Viewer)

[Ilov80s]

I still don't get the hype behind Moreno. A very good college back, but lacking the size or speed that are key for an NFL back. How he goes high first round and Gerhart/MJD/Ray Rice fall to the bottom of the 2nd is mind boggling.

 

[The Jacket]

Yeah, Jamaal Charles managed to dominate the league despite having utter garbage on the entire OL, not just interior. And they've just signed Denver's castoff center, so Moreno wasn't that bad off. Arizona had some of the worst OG play in the league and that didn't stop fellow rookie Beanie Wells looking a lot more like an NFL back.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

didn't read the thread cause I hate the donkeys and I know this adds nothing to the discussion, but they should have taken Brian Orakpo.....big mistake

 

[moleculo]

RB- A Look at Yards Gained after Contact

If Moreno's 63.5% is accurate, there is nothing ordinary about that.

He's probably one of the few easiest RBs in the league to catch at or behind the LOS. Look at the guys over 70%, quoted direct from that article (with the addition of LJ on the end):Clinton Portis (71.1%), Tim Hightower (71.4%), Michael Bush (71.6%), and Jason Snelling (73.9%), Marshawn Lynch (75%), and Larry Johnson (77.4%).

Guys with little to no burst who always find themselves plodding right into a defender before the play has developed.

so do guys who don't have effective blocking. Den's guards were pretty terrible last year, especially down the stretch. It's tough to make a play when you've got DT's in your face when you take the hand-off.

Buckhalter did it and was more effective in doing so. I watched a lot of Moreno last year. Sure, he line was far from great. But he O-line is not the reason he underperformed. He simply wasn't a very good NFL runningback.

it's been my contention that Buckhalter had more "choice" plays - he has gotten better holes and been the beneficiary of being allowed to run outside, whereas Moreno was given more short yardage/inside duties. I'm not sure that holds up 100% of the time, that was just my perception watching all the Bronco games last year. I could be completely wrong.For reference - here's a youtube highlight of Buckhalter, and here's a highlight for Moreno. Does anyone see any trends, i.e. one guy does something much better than another?

 

[TheWheel]

1) Some guy said the rookies this year have no bust potential but Moreno does. All unproven, highly drafted players have bust potential.

2) I am surprised McDaniels name hasn't been named yet. Moreno was drafted to cover the Kevin Faulk part of the McDaniels offense. He can block and catch. I don't think he was ever meant to be a stud.

3) And unless a guy quits (injuries are not a bustable offense--not skill related), a guy cannot be given up on after one year. Every rookie deserves at least a full offseason of preparation before making a final judgment. Remember, veterans have certainity as to what they are doing and who they have to rely on. Moreno was just getting introduced this time last year. I'll call him a possible bust if he doesn't improve this year.

 

[Concept Coop]

1) Some guy said the rookies this year have no bust potential but Moreno does. All unproven, highly drafted players have bust potential.2) I am surprised McDaniels name hasn't been named yet. Moreno was drafted to cover the Kevin Faulk part of the McDaniels offense. He can block and catch. I don't think he was ever meant to be a stud. 3) And unless a guy quits (injuries are not a bustable offense--not skill related), a guy cannot be given up on after one year. Every rookie deserves at least a full offseason of preparation before making a final judgment. Remember, veterans have certainity as to what they are doing and who they have to rely on. Moreno was just getting introduced this time last year. I'll call him a possible bust if he doesn't improve this year.

Re 2: Moreno was not drafted at the number 12 spot to be Kevin Faulk. You draft running backs that high to be studs and nothing less.Re 3: I don't think anyone is calling him a bust already. But his value is still pretty high, compared to his actual production. If he performs like he did last year, his value takes a big hit. It is only logical to consider moving Moreno now.

 

[cr8f]

I took Crabtree #1 and Donald Brown #4 in a dynasty(no RB required league). Not happy there either.

 

[Hendo]

And Best is a lion.

wow great analysis there bud

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

most of you are going to sell him, like most of you sold mendy.

There's a huge difference between a guy who doesn't play and a guy who plays and looks bad.In 2008 Mendenhall didn't play. The people who downgraded him were silly.

In 2009 Moreno had 275 touches and looked very ordinary. In this case it makes sense to downgrade him.

- he was injured during the preseason and never had the burst hes known for.

- he came into camp late, which always hurts rookies.

- hes now the center piece for a offense that drafted him at #12.

his value is right about even with mathews.. but id rather have the knowshon.

He got outplayed by Correll Buckhalter and was barely startable in FF leagues even though he practically had the workhorse role handed to him on a platter by a coaching staff that wanted him to succeed. There's no way I would trade Mathews for him.

Im gonna call BS on the bolded. He did play and looked terrible then got hurt (small ssample size). And there were tons of reports that the Pitt brass was unhappy wth him in camp on 2009. I think a downgrade was warranted.

 

[Steelfan7]

most of you are going to sell him, like most of you sold mendy.

There's a huge difference between a guy who doesn't play and a guy who plays and looks bad.In 2008 Mendenhall didn't play. The people who downgraded him were silly.

In 2009 Moreno had 275 touches and looked very ordinary. In this case it makes sense to downgrade him.

- he was injured during the preseason and never had the burst hes known for.

- he came into camp late, which always hurts rookies.

- hes now the center piece for a offense that drafted him at #12.

his value is right about even with mathews.. but id rather have the knowshon.

He got outplayed by Correll Buckhalter and was barely startable in FF leagues even though he practically had the workhorse role handed to him on a platter by a coaching staff that wanted him to succeed. There's no way I would trade Mathews for him.

Im gonna call BS on the bolded. He did play and looked terrible then got hurt (small ssample size). And there were tons of reports that the Pitt brass was unhappy wth him in camp on 2009. I think a downgrade was warranted.

I'm calling BS on bolded part in your post. Mendenhall had a whopping 19 carries before he got hurt. Steelers have always been very high on Mendenhall, but they also knew that Mendenhall is very young. Mendenhall's season last yr proved you wrong.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

most of you are going to sell him, like most of you sold mendy.

There's a huge difference between a guy who doesn't play and a guy who plays and looks bad.In 2008 Mendenhall didn't play. The people who downgraded him were silly.

In 2009 Moreno had 275 touches and looked very ordinary. In this case it makes sense to downgrade him.

- he was injured during the preseason and never had the burst hes known for.

- he came into camp late, which always hurts rookies.

- hes now the center piece for a offense that drafted him at #12.

his value is right about even with mathews.. but id rather have the knowshon.

He got outplayed by Correll Buckhalter and was barely startable in FF leagues even though he practically had the workhorse role handed to him on a platter by a coaching staff that wanted him to succeed. There's no way I would trade Mathews for him.

Im gonna call BS on the bolded. He did play and looked terrible then got hurt (small ssample size). And there were tons of reports that the Pitt brass was unhappy wth him in camp on 2009. I think a downgrade was warranted.

I'm calling BS on bolded part in your post. Mendenhall had a whopping 19 carries before he got hurt. Steelers have always been very high on Mendenhall, but they also knew that Mendenhall is very young. Mendenhall's season last yr proved you wrong.

you honestly think people didnt downgrade mendenhall after that season? then a very poor camp by all accounts the following season? He performed on the field nicely after that.

My main point is to discount moerno at this point is foolish. I am more concerned about the general direction of Denver though, seems like a trainwreck

 

[Courtjester]

I would be concerned if I am a Moreno owner. He had the fumble issues early in the season and then he started thinking too much when he got the ball.

Watch replays from last year and count how many times he falls down when no one touches him. His feet move all over but he doesn't go anywhere. He needs to be put out in the flat and thrown screen passes or the team needs to run more pitch plays to utilize his skills.

But the biggest concern, as I mentioned in the Broncos thread, is Denver's plan to go to a power rushing game this year. They don't have the line to do this and they do not have the RB to run behind this system. Add in the fact who knows how the WR talent is going to shake out--if the passing game struggles, then more defenses stack the line and you can see where this is going.

This Bronco season is one big question mark. I am crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.

 

[twr]

I would be concerned if I am a Moreno owner. He had the fumble issues early in the season and then he started thinking too much when he got the ball.Watch replays from last year and count how many times he falls down when no one touches him. His feet move all over but he doesn't go anywhere. He needs to be put out in the flat and thrown screen passes or the team needs to run more pitch plays to utilize his skills.But the biggest concern, as I mentioned in the Broncos thread, is Denver's plan to go to a power rushing game this year. They don't have the line to do this and they do not have the RB to run behind this system. Add in the fact who knows how the WR talent is going to shake out--if the passing game struggles, then more defenses stack the line and you can see where this is going.This Bronco season is one big question mark. I am crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.

his skills are better for a power scheme... not zone.

 

[Matt Waldman]

While I'm concerned about Moreno's surrounding talent and McDaniels' decisions backfiring, I disagree with many of the assertions about Moreno in this thread. I understand and see some merit in the view that Moreno had a lot of carries and didn't produce which differs from guys like Mendenhall and Ray Rice, who didn't have many. But poor offensive line play screws with a back's game and ability to make plays in a variety of ways. There are also good examples of backs with pretty good careers that had as many or more carries as rookies and performed similarly (or worse) than Moreno.

Last Name First Name G ATT Att/G Rush YPC TD Rec Yd TdLynch Marshawn 13 280 21.5 1115 4.0 7 18 184 0Tomlinson LaDainian 16 339 21.2 1236 3.6 10 59 367 0Williams Ricky 12 253 21.1 884 3.5 2 28 172 0George Eddie 16 335 20.9 1368 4.1 8 23 182 0Williams Cadillac 14 290 20.7 1178 4.1 6 20 81 0Faulk Marshall 16 314 19.6 1282 4.1 11 52 522 1Henry Travis 13 213 16.4 729 3.4 4 22 179 0Moreno Knowshon 16 247 15.4 947 3.8 7 28 213 2Payton Walter 13 196 15.1 679 3.5 7 33 213 0Smith Emmitt 16 241 15.1 937 3.9 11 24 228 0Simpson O.J. 13 181 13.9 697 3.9 2 30 343 3Csonka Larry 11 138 12.5 540 3.9 6 11 118 1Barber Tiki 12 136 11.3 511 3.8 3 34 299 1Garner Charlie 10 109 10.9 399 3.7 3 8 74 0Williams DeAngelo 13 121 9.3 501 4.1 1 33 313 1
LT, Ricky Williams, Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith, and O.J. Simpson were pretty good backs. Travis Henry, Tiki Barber, and Charlie Garner were pretty good, too.

I know what I saw from Moreno as a collegian and it wasn't running up the backs of his linemen, lacking patience, or lacking burst. Although I respect the opinions of some here, I think it's misguided to draw conclusions about a back after one season, even with nearly 250 carries.

 

[battlestar]

Thanks for the voice of reason reply Matt - I too wasn't overly concerned with what Moreno did last season, based on the O-Line play and the general confusion that seemed to take over the entire team as the season wore on. That, and as another poster mentioned, the play calling differences which seemed to apply to Buckhalter vs. Moreno.

I too respect the opinion of many on these boards, but was getting a little nervous about Moreno, based on so much negativity.

I choose to hold. Anything else seems short-sighted unless you are getting proven value in return, IMO.

 

[JohnnyU]

While I'm concerned about Moreno's surrounding talent and McDaniels' decisions backfiring, I disagree with many of the assertions about Moreno in this thread. I understand and see some merit in the view that Moreno had a lot of carries and didn't produce which differs from guys like Mendenhall and Ray Rice, who didn't have many. But poor offensive line play screws with a back's game and ability to make plays in a variety of ways. There are also good examples of backs with pretty good careers that had as many or more carries as rookies and performed similarly (or worse) than Moreno.

Last Name	First Name		G	ATT	Att/G	Rush	YPC	TD	Rec	Yd	TdLynch	Marshawn	 		13	280	21.5	1115	4.0	7	18	184	0Tomlinson	LaDainian		16	339	21.2	1236	3.6	10	59	367	0Williams	Ricky			 12	253	21.1	884	3.5	2	28	172	0George	Eddie		 	  16	335	20.9	1368	4.1	8	23	182	0Williams	Cadillac		  14	290	20.7	1178	4.1	6	20	81	0Faulk	Marshall	 		16	314	19.6	1282	4.1	11	52	522	1Henry	Travis	 		  13	213	16.4	729	3.4	4	22	179	0Moreno	Knowshon	 	   16	247	15.4	947	3.8	7	28	213	2Payton	Walter	 		 13	196	15.1	679	3.5	7	33	213	0Smith	Emmitt	 		  16	241	15.1	937	3.9	11	24	228	0Simpson	O.J.	 		  13	181	13.9	697	3.9	2	30	343	3Csonka	Larry		 	  11	138	12.5	540	3.9	6	11	118	1Barber	Tiki		 		12	136	11.3	511	3.8	3	34	299	1Garner	Charlie	 		10	109	10.9	399	3.7	3	8	74	0Williams	DeAngelo	 	13	121	9.3	501	4.1	1	33	313	1

LT, Ricky Williams, Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith, and O.J. Simpson were pretty good backs. Travis Henry, Tiki Barber, and Charlie Garner were pretty good, too. I know what I saw from Moreno as a collegian and it wasn't running up the backs of his linemen, lacking patience, or lacking burst. Although I respect the opinions of some here, I think it's misguided to draw conclusions about a back after one season, even with nearly 250 carries.

At what point should we draw a conclusion?

 

[Matt Waldman]

While I'm concerned about Moreno's surrounding talent and McDaniels' decisions backfiring, I disagree with many of the assertions about Moreno in this thread. I understand and see some merit in the view that Moreno had a lot of carries and didn't produce which differs from guys like Mendenhall and Ray Rice, who didn't have many. But poor offensive line play screws with a back's game and ability to make plays in a variety of ways. There are also good examples of backs with pretty good careers that had as many or more carries as rookies and performed similarly (or worse) than Moreno.

Last Name	First Name		G	ATT	Att/G	Rush	YPC	TD	Rec	Yd	TdLynch	Marshawn	 		13	280	21.5	1115	4.0	7	18	184	0Tomlinson	LaDainian		16	339	21.2	1236	3.6	10	59	367	0Williams	Ricky			 12	253	21.1	884	3.5	2	28	172	0George	Eddie		 	  16	335	20.9	1368	4.1	8	23	182	0Williams	Cadillac		  14	290	20.7	1178	4.1	6	20	81	0Faulk	Marshall	 		16	314	19.6	1282	4.1	11	52	522	1Henry	Travis	 		  13	213	16.4	729	3.4	4	22	179	0Moreno	Knowshon	 	   16	247	15.4	947	3.8	7	28	213	2Payton	Walter	 		 13	196	15.1	679	3.5	7	33	213	0Smith	Emmitt	 		  16	241	15.1	937	3.9	11	24	228	0Simpson	O.J.	 		  13	181	13.9	697	3.9	2	30	343	3Csonka	Larry		 	  11	138	12.5	540	3.9	6	11	118	1Barber	Tiki		 		12	136	11.3	511	3.8	3	34	299	1Garner	Charlie	 		10	109	10.9	399	3.7	3	8	74	0Williams	DeAngelo	 	13	121	9.3	501	4.1	1	33	313	1

LT, Ricky Williams, Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith, and O.J. Simpson were pretty good backs. Travis Henry, Tiki Barber, and Charlie Garner were pretty good, too. I know what I saw from Moreno as a collegian and it wasn't running up the backs of his linemen, lacking patience, or lacking burst. Although I respect the opinions of some here, I think it's misguided to draw conclusions about a back after one season, even with nearly 250 carries.

At what point should we draw a conclusion?

I think 2-3 seasons is reasonable if the player a) stays healthy b) gets help up front and c) earns a similar amount of carries.