What is the best measure for FF dominance? (1 Viewer)

[Rounders]

During this past weekend my league-mates and I got into a discussion about how to determine which owners have dominated our beloved hobby. Silly I know, but hey what else do you talk about when the Bears are getting hammered.

We have been playing in a re-draft league for 13 years with 8 of the owners playing the entire time. The other 2 owners have been playing for 5+ years in the league We have a decent buy-in, that has steadily increased over the years, currently at $200.

The championships are spread out and we all agreed that championships is the best measurement, but then after that we could figure out the "tiebreakers".

What say you?

 

[PsychoMan]

TOTAL POINTS SCORED ! ! !

 

[FavreCo]

Championships #1. I can win far more at online poker so the money is nothing.

 

[AcerFC]

I believe the best indicator of dominance is what MFL calls the Play All and CBS calls the breakdown.

Case in point, we had a team win the championship last year beating teams every week that fell into the bottom third of scoring in the league (12 teams). That streak was extended in the playoffs for him. There is no way he was the best team, just got lucky in the schedule. Yes he took advantage but I don't think championships are the end all and be all.

In fact, our league give the $150 bonus to best breakdown record as that is the best indicator of what the best team is. Just my 2 cents for what its worth.

 

[GCP]

It's all about the championships. If we paid out 1st place money to the team with the most points over the course of the season, I would draft differently. But as it stands, I draft a lot of boom or bust RBs in hopes they break out in the 2nd half of the season so I can make a run at the title.

 

[Jetdoc]

Money, unless it's a free league.

You put money down to win money, plain and simple.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

well, it depends on whatever your league's rules are.

Some leagues are just total points leagues, so if that's the case then the focus should be on that.

I think most leagues have some sort of championship so I think that's the focus there. Money is nice and usually the highest money winner is the champion but sometimes you can get a guy who sneaks into the playoffs and takes home the title.

Should that person be considered the best team......yes. In the NFL we have wild card teams and if they run the table and win the SB, the are the champs. Otherwise, we should just play a 16 game season and the best team in the NFC and AFC play 1 game called the SB and that's it. Tournaments which is really what a playoff format is, is made to have upsets from time to time.

 

[The Man With No Name]

Championships. One guy in my local league is always 1st or 2nd in scoring, but he has never won the title in 11 years. I've never seen anyone rip people off in trades constantly like he has always done.

 

[The Jerk]

I don't believe championships tell the whole story. I can remember one season when I was barely above the mean for the season in points, but went 10-4 and won the championship game on two second half defensive scores on MNF. I also remember one year when I was the scoring leader by over 100 points but went 5-9. Points allowed is a head-to-head element that individual teams have no control over, and my 10-4 year with a mediocre team, I had the fewest points allowed. In the 5-9 season, my points allowed was roughly 10 ppg higher than the next unluckiest team. Nearly impossible to overcome.

Of course, over time, nearly all of the luck balances out, so no doubt championships must be considered, but season total points is a very close second, and if a large difference exists between 1st and 2nd in total points, that usually indicates greater dominance than a head-to-head championship in a given season.

Similarly, if teams have been competing in the same league for a long time, a large cumulative points lead for one team would again carry more weight for me than the team with the most championships. However, if that's not the case, then no doubt the championships carry the day.

 

[Challenge Everything]

What is the best measure for FF dominance?

Luck

 

[MOAT]

Money, unless it's a free league.You put money down to win money, plain and simple.

Really? How much do you actually win? It would be much more cost effective to get a part-time job. You'd probably spend fewer hours and get more $ out of it. I know I would.To me FF is all about winning on a weekly basis and rubbing others' noses in it. Overall winning percentage.Championships are highly dependent on luck many years but it seems the same guys are usually in the hunt. Those are the guys you don't want to play but LOVE to beat.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Championships.

 

[otb_lifer]

Money, unless it's a free league.You put money down to win money, plain and simple.

Nothing more needs to be said here ...

 

[Futeki]

All Played Record

It is how you compare to all of your opponents every week.

 

[Krewe]

In my main redraft league I have the historic edge since 1995 in total wins, winning percentage,playoff trips and championships.

Of those..the last means the most to me, getting the Trophy.

When you get that, the cash always follows. !!!!

 

[Interception Irwin]

Championships are all about luck. That's why I've always been an advocate of the two-week championship period.

The best measure of dominance is total fantasy points scored.

 

[AngryGorilla]

championships, yes, captain obvious...

and i agree on the total FF points scored over time. If you can consistently score high, you're a player to be dealt with

 

[Disco Stu]

Height.

 

[texasheat]

TOTAL POINTS SCORED ! ! !

THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS Record means nothing, prize money doesn't tell the whole story either...If I outscore you for 16 weeks, I drafted and managed a better team than you. Simple as that.

 

[texasheat]

Height.

Wow you are hilarious

 

[Challenge Everything]

TOTAL POINTS SCORED ! ! !

THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS Record means nothing, prize money doesn't tell the whole story either...If I outscore you for 16 weeks, I drafted and managed a better team than you. Simple as that.

Yes, you had all of the influence in the world to motivate the players to score big points for you. It was all your doing because you drafted better than someone else.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

TOTAL POINTS SCORED ! ! !

THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS Record means nothing, prize money doesn't tell the whole story either...If I outscore you for 16 weeks, I drafted and managed a better team than you. Simple as that.

Not when I set my team up to outscore you the final 3 weeks.

 

[delusional]

3 championships in 6yrs

5 playoff appearances

yes, i earned the "i can talk all the #### i want" status

 

[Dentist]

TOTAL POINTS SCORED ! ! !

 

[Dentist]

TOTAL POINTS SCORED ! ! !

THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS Record means nothing, prize money doesn't tell the whole story either...If I outscore you for 16 weeks, I drafted and managed a better team than you. Simple as that.

Not when I set my team up to outscore you the final 3 weeks.

Flaw in the way the hobby is set up.

 

[Dentist]

In one of my two leauges.. true ffl dominance is established by quality of shtick run.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

The best ff players are the ones who consistently start the guys who score the most points. The schedule is a random factor; I could take most playoff teams, play with their schedule and make them a bottom-feeder. Same scores, same points...but they go from great to garbage based on something nobody controls. So h2h records don't reveal anything. Same with how your team does in weeks 15 and 16. Teams with losing records often outscore the teams in the SB. Their scores just don't "count" that week.

If you start the guys who score the most points year after year, you're the better player. You're also putting yourself in a position to catch the luck wave that turns teams into champions. I've won titles when my team wasn't even one of the top five teams in the league. Sure, it's nice to win, but I wasn't overly proud of the accomplishment.

But if you score the most points in a total points league...you're the best. No question. Luck always plays a role, but over 16 cumulative weeks the cream rises.

If Owner A consistently starts guys who score more, Owner B is going to be in trouble. Only Owner B + the schedule + luck put together can defeat Owner A. Owner B needs other random variables to compete, and that excludes him from dominance-- regardless of who won the title.

 

[Routilla]

I think Championships first and foremost. After that I kind of like the all-time records for single game and season. I had a monster year 2 years ago and raised the bar on most of our records so I am a bit biased. Having them there on our CBS league site is quite gratifying. If there is ever a question about dominance I usually refer to those records readily available for all to access.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

TOTAL POINTS SCORED ! ! !

THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS Record means nothing, prize money doesn't tell the whole story either...If I outscore you for 16 weeks, I drafted and managed a better team than you. Simple as that.

Not when I set my team up to outscore you the final 3 weeks. :(

Flaw in the way the hobby is set up.

I disagree about it being a flaw. The hobby sets up random variables to keep inferior players interested in the game. If only the best teams had a chance to win, the inferior owners wouldn't play anymore and the league would have four teams. I prefer total points as a measure of who's the best, but h2h accommodates the other owners and has its place, too. The downside is that buffoons take credit for something the schedule did for them, and they start to think they had more to do with their success than they did, but that's okay. It's a game, and if it makes people happy it's all good.

 

[The Jerk]

The best ff players are the ones who consistently start the guys who score the most points. The schedule is a random factor; I could take most playoff teams, play with their schedule and make them a bottom-feeder. Same scores, same points...but they go from great to garbage based on something nobody controls. So h2h records don't reveal anything. Same with how your team does in weeks 15 and 16. Teams with losing records often outscore the teams in the SB. Their scores just don't "count" that week.If you start the guys who score the most points year after year, you're the better player. You're also putting yourself in a position to catch the luck wave that turns teams into champions. I've won titles when my team wasn't even one of the top five teams in the league. Sure, it's nice to win, but I wasn't overly proud of the accomplishment. But if you score the most points in a total points league...you're the best. No question. Luck always plays a role, but over 16 cumulative weeks the cream rises.If Owner A consistently starts guys who score more, Owner B is going to be in trouble. Only Owner B + the schedule + luck put together can defeat Owner A. Owner B needs other random variables to compete, and that excludes him from dominance-- regardless of who won the title.

Great points. I didn't have the time earlier to write out a more detailed perspective on why I value total points, but I would not have done as well as you.The longer the time period, the less luck has to do with fantasy success. Any one game can be completely decided by luck. Any one season can be highly influenced by luck. Total points scored success has much less to do with luck than head-to-head success.I strongly prefer leagues in which the rewards are equally balanced between total points and head-to-head. Throw in weekly prizes and I believe you have the best setup of all.

 

[Disco Stu]

Height.

Wow you are hilarious

No room for Caddyshack in this pool. Serious business being done here.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

TOTAL POINTS SCORED ! ! !

THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS Record means nothing, prize money doesn't tell the whole story either...If I outscore you for 16 weeks, I drafted and managed a better team than you. Simple as that.

Not when I set my team up to outscore you the final 3 weeks.

Flaw in the way the hobby is set up.

A flaw?Its a strategic point. Either owners handle it or they cry, year after year after year after year.

 

[madviking10]

Seems like some sour grapes from some peeps that didnt close the deal. Perfect example of why the Championship rings are fun to have. Just to rub it in to some people on draft day.

 

[The Jerk]

A flaw?Its a strategic point. Either owners handle it or they cry, year after year after year after year.

How about a flawed strategic point? No matter how much you do to attempt to peak at the playoff weeks, there is still a high contribution from luck in matchups and tackles at the 1-yard line, etc. Someone who constantly falls short may be doing something wrong. However, you can also stop changing your lineup Week 11 and still end up with the most points during a playoff week.ETA: It's not like owners are actually pacing their team to have their best performance in Week 15 or 16. Obviously, it's not even a team in any usual sense of the word in the sporting world.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

ETA: It's not like owners are actually pacing their team to have their best performance in Week 15 or 16. Obviously, it's not even a team in any usual sense of the word in the sporting world.

Pacing has nothing to do with setting your team up for fantasy playoffs. This isnt an NFL strategy, its a fantasy strategy. Its not pacing players, its acquiring the right players and letting others go.Surprisingly there are a ton of people who have no forethought towards it beyond looking at the schedule. Then they take umbrage with a Maroney-type not playing 16 and 17 and talk about how unfair it is.

 

[AllVolUT]

Championships - just ask Marino..

Other than the obvious, I'd agree w/ the rest of the guys on total points scored.

 

[The Jerk]

ETA: It's not like owners are actually pacing their team to have their best performance in Week 15 or 16. Obviously, it's not even a team in any usual sense of the word in the sporting world.

Pacing has nothing to do with setting your team up for fantasy playoffs.

Exactly! You make it sound like fantasy coaches can make some huge impact like they're the next Vince Lombardi or something. There are some obvious things you can do, like checking the schedules for APPARENTLY easy matchups and being aware of players who may not play much in Week 16. Still, it's not always so obvious, as projections in late November don't always equal reality of mid-December.Don't pretend there isn't a huge amount of luck involved in a single head-to-head matchup.I had the highest total points in 2005 and my team put up a typical solid total in Week 16, but I lost the head-to-head championship to a team that was middle of the pack in points but had Shaun Alexander. Remember that game vs. the Colts. They put him back in after he was apparently out for the rest of the game when they had a first down on the 1 yard line. Why? So he could tie the (then) TD record previously set by Priest Holmes. I lost by one point. Sorry, but that's unlucky, not bad coaching.When you try to say that there is no or very little luck involved, you're just exhibiting a shallow understanding of the dynamics of head-to-head FF play.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

ETA: It's not like owners are actually pacing their team to have their best performance in Week 15 or 16. Obviously, it's not even a team in any usual sense of the word in the sporting world.

Pacing has nothing to do with setting your team up for fantasy playoffs.

Exactly! You make it sound like fantasy coaches can make some huge impact like they're the next Vince Lombardi or something. There are some obvious things you can do, like checking the schedules for APPARENTLY easy matchups and being aware of players who may not play much in Week 16. Still, it's not always so obvious, as projections in late November don't always equal reality of mid-December.Don't pretend there isn't a huge amount of luck involved in a single head-to-head matchup.

I had the highest total points in 2005 and my team put up a typical solid total in Week 16, but I lost the head-to-head championship to a team that was middle of the pack in points but had Shaun Alexander. Remember that game vs. the Colts. They put him back in after he was apparently out for the rest of the game when they had a first down on the 1 yard line. Why? So he could tie the (then) TD record previously set by Priest Holmes. I lost by one point. Sorry, but that's unlucky, not bad coaching.

When you try to say that there is no or very little luck involved, you're just exhibiting a shallow understanding of the dynamics of head-to-head FF play.

Ive had that happen to me also as the high scorer... Freakin' Marcus Robinson! Freakin' Emmit Smith his rookie year!Still doesnt change my perspective of settng your self up for the best possibilities come playoff time.

Instead of the "Im high scorer... and at week 8 noone was going to catch my high scoring team in total points....thats good enough" idiocy.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Seems like some sour grapes from some peeps that didnt close the deal. Perfect example of why the Championship rings are fun to have. Just to rub it in to some people on draft day.

I've won (and certainly lost) my share of titles, and if I ever buy and wear a fantasy championship ring, my friends have the right (and perhaps the responsibility) to mock me for the rest of my life. You might as well set a 20-sided die into a pendant and wear it around your neck like a jewel. Nothing screams "I'm my league's Hester Prynne" like purposely branding yourself with a scarlet N.

 

[The Jerk]

Ive had that happen to me also as the high scorer... Freakin' Marcus Robinson! Freakin' Emmit Smith his rookie year!

Still doesnt change my perspective of settng your self up for the best possibilities come playoff time.

Instead of the "Im high scorer... and at week 8 noone was going to catch my high scoring team in total points....thats good enough" idiocy.

What is the "idiocy" of which you speak?Are you talking about an owner sitting on his hand, or are you talking about a total points league?

If you're talking about a total points league being boring if one team is far ahead, I completely agree. However, I don't think the solution is to introduce far more luck into the equation by essentially letting a vastly inferior team all year have the same chance of being the champion.

So my preference is for leagues to compete in both formats; have the head-to-head competition with it's championship AND have a total points champion.

I'm pretty confident that if you ran a poll asking which competition involves more luck, it would be strongly answered that it was head-to-head. Note that I didn't say ALL luck. You're right that there are some things you can do to increase your team's performance in the fantasy playoffs, but the impact of roster moves and lineup selections typically does not add up to a huge difference.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

ETA: It's not like owners are actually pacing their team to have their best performance in Week 15 or 16. Obviously, it's not even a team in any usual sense of the word in the sporting world.

Pacing has nothing to do with setting your team up for fantasy playoffs.

Exactly! You make it sound like fantasy coaches can make some huge impact like they're the next Vince Lombardi or something. There are some obvious things you can do, like checking the schedules for APPARENTLY easy matchups and being aware of players who may not play much in Week 16. Still, it's not always so obvious, as projections in late November don't always equal reality of mid-December.Don't pretend there isn't a huge amount of luck involved in a single head-to-head matchup.

I had the highest total points in 2005 and my team put up a typical solid total in Week 16, but I lost the head-to-head championship to a team that was middle of the pack in points but had Shaun Alexander. Remember that game vs. the Colts. They put him back in after he was apparently out for the rest of the game when they had a first down on the 1 yard line. Why? So he could tie the (then) TD record previously set by Priest Holmes. I lost by one point. Sorry, but that's unlucky, not bad coaching.

When you try to say that there is no or very little luck involved, you're just exhibiting a shallow understanding of the dynamics of head-to-head FF play.

Ive had that happen to me also as the high scorer... Freakin' Marcus Robinson! Freakin' Emmit Smith his rookie year!Still doesnt change my perspective of settng your self up for the best possibilities come playoff time.

Instead of the "Im high scorer... and at week 8 noone was going to catch my high scoring team in total points....thats good enough" idiocy.

People say that, but total points leagues rarely work out that way. I'm not saying it always goes down to the wire, but a few teams always have a shot in like week 11. And it's (roughly) the same teams each year. The ones who never have a shot in week 8 are the ones who benefit from a h2h format. If you're the high scorer, you have the best team. If you have the best team and you selected the players, you're the best owner that year. Even a toal points auction league will have luck involved (injuries, etc), but winning that league and winning a h2h draft league are two totally different accomplishments imo.

 

[faux_bear]

The Jerk has made some great points in this thread and I agree with him 100%. The points he has made illustrate why I have been trying to get my league to switch to the Victory Points method for the last 2 or 3 years. Unsuccessfully I should say, because most of my league owners are stuck on the notion that H2H is the best way to go and are resistant to try something new.

If there are two things I would change about how most "standard" fantasy leagues operate it's:

1) I'd get rid of the old fashioned "priority" waiver wires and adopt auction style formats...

2) I'd move to systems in which fantasy success is not determined exclusively by H2H outcomes...there's too much luck involved and there are better ways to ensure that the best team comes out the winner.

btw, I have a theory that those who are more politically conservative are also more likely to be the ones that say that Championships are the only thing that matters in fantasy football, while those that are more liberal are more likely to see that H2H outcomes are not the best measure of fantasy success. I've kind of noticed that my leaguemates that are Republican are the ones that are more resistant to changing any of our fantasy football rules and bylaws. I could be off, but it's just an observation.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

The Jerk has made some great points in this thread and I agree with him 100%. The points he has made illustrate why I have been trying to get my league to switch to the Victory Points method for the last 2 or 3 years. Unsuccessfully I should say, because most of my league owners are stuck on the notion that H2H is the best way to go and are resistant to try something new.If there are two things I would change about how most "standard" fantasy leagues operate it's:1) I'd get rid of the old fashioned "priority" waiver wires and adopt auction style formats...2) I'd move to systems in which fantasy success is not determined exclusively by H2H outcomes...there's too much luck involved and there are better ways to ensure that the best team comes out the winner.btw, I have a theory that those who are more politically conservative are also more likely to be the ones that say that Championships are the only thing that matters in fantasy football, while those that are more liberal are more likely to see that H2H outcomes are not the best measure of fantasy success. I've kind of noticed that my leaguemates that are Republican are the ones that are more resistant to changing any of our fantasy football rules and bylaws. I could be off, but it's just an observation.

Interesting theory. I'm pretty liberal and I prefer total points as the measure of who is the best. I just think that, while fun, h2h is an attempt to make ff look like "real football." But it's a cheap imitation and it doesn't hold up. Their game is not our game. Our game is about picking players that will have good statistical performances. So the person who does that is the best owner imo.

 

[#1DetroitFan]

IMHO it is Championships. As somone who has won 5 championships in the past 7 years and the last 4 consecutive years in a row I will vote for Chapionships. I can see how others view total points. The only thing that earns you the trophy is the championship!

 

[Reservoir Dog]

Championships, but playoff berths can also show consistent excellence.

In my main league (a very competitive 12 teamer), I have 8 playoff appearances in 11 years, and 3 championships (both are records).

Overall wins, playoff berths, and points scored ALL show the greatness of a FF team. However, in the end....all that really matters are the championships.

 

[fantasy nut]

None of the above. Anything to do with head-to-record is skewed by the "luck factor" (i.e. you scored the 2nd highest points for the week but still lost because you played the top scoring team that week; and vice versa). We draft players based on how many points we project them to score. Therefore, the system to determine a winner needs to incorporate this factor into the equation.

Our re-draft league crowns an annual Super Bowl Champion (based on a tournament format) and a five-year winner (based soley on the CBS Power Ratings, which is the best tool I have seen for determining the best teams).

The power standings reflect each team's combined ranking in three categories:

1. win/loss record

2. total points

3 breakdown: The breakdown category calculates what your team's win/loss record would have been if you played every team in your league each week of the season.

Since the majority of our owners are "traditionalists" we use head-to-head record to determine the winners of our 2 five-team divisions; and we use the Power Rankings to determine the 2 wildcard teams. In our six years of using this system, only once has a team that has not finished in the top four of the Power Rankings not qualified for the playoffs. In that instance, the team ranked sixth made it because they had very good luck -- they won their division based on record, despite finishing very low in total points and overall wins (see category #3 above).

We came up with the 5-year pool winner to reward the most consistent teams over the long-haul, and to prevent teams from throwing in the towel in a particular year (as it would kill their 5-year pool standing) or from leaving the league before their commitment is up -- they forfeit any money contribute to the 5-year pool ($25 per year) if they leave early.

This system works well for us and in my opinion, does a great job of ensuring the best teams make the playoffs and that the best team in the long-run is adequately rewarded (NOTE: The winner of the 5-year pool receives 75% of the $1,250 pot; the 2nd place finisher receives 25%).

 

[texasheat]

TOTAL POINTS SCORED ! ! !

THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS Record means nothing, prize money doesn't tell the whole story either...If I outscore you for 16 weeks, I drafted and managed a better team than you. Simple as that.

Not when I set my team up to outscore you the final 3 weeks.

That is why, in our league, the majority of the money goes to the total points champ from weeks 1-16.

 

[The Jerk]

The Jerk has made some great points in this thread and I agree with him 100%. The points he has made illustrate why I have been trying to get my league to switch to the Victory Points method for the last 2 or 3 years. Unsuccessfully I should say, because most of my league owners are stuck on the notion that H2H is the best way to go and are resistant to try something new.1) I'd get rid of the old fashioned "priority" waiver wires and adopt auction style formats...2) I'd move to systems in which fantasy success is not determined exclusively by H2H outcomes...there's too much luck involved and there are better ways to ensure that the best team comes out the winner.

faux_bear,It took me several years to change the minds of several owners in a league I have been running for 13 years. Some of the owners who resisted many of the changes roughly 8-10 years ago now tell me it's easily their favorite league. And I still haven't even got everything adjusted as I would really like it, but most of the owners like it this way and it's not really unfair, so I can live with it. The point is, stay the course, but don't get too personally invested in the precise outcome.For me, the ultimate league set up is split three ways:1. Head-to-head as per usual rules2. Season total points3. Weekly total pointsYou can split the rewards any way you like, but my recommendation is to make 1 and 2 equal and not to be too stingy on 3. The league I like the most has more rewards given out through 3 than 1 and 2 combined. If you've never been in a league like that, you might be surprised how much fun it can be when larger prizes are on the line each week. Having high weekly total points rewards also helps both to reward teams that are strong all season long (making the playoff upset less painful) and also gives teams that start slow an incentive to stay the course through a losing season, as a strong finish can help them break even. This is a problem in many redraft leagues.

 

[The Jerk]

TOTAL POINTS SCORED ! ! !

THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS Record means nothing, prize money doesn't tell the whole story either...If I outscore you for 16 weeks, I drafted and managed a better team than you. Simple as that.

Not when I set my team up to outscore you the final 3 weeks.

That is why, in our league, the majority of the money goes to the total points champ from weeks 1-16.

My team stunk last year so I was never in serious contention for either crown. However, the most extreme example I've seen of how much luck determines head-to-head champions was this one. The season total points champion dominated, finishing with nearly 10% more than the second place team and also finished with the most points 8 times out of 17 weeks.However, due to unlucky scheduing, this team had to play in the wild card week and got beat by a team that started 0-5 and was 6-7 in the regular season.So the team with by far the most points didn't even make it out of Week 14. They lost the game something like 96-93 where the average score is a little under 70.And for BigSteelThrill, note that this dominant team made several moves down the stretch to position itself best for the playoffs.

 

[massraider]

The championships are spread out and we all agreed that championships is the best measurement, but then after that we could figure out the "tiebreakers".

What say you?

Whole bunch of people missed this part.