What party am I today? (1 Viewer)

[The Commish]

Republicans are going to be the old Democrats. And the old Democrats who have shifted further left are going to be the Progressives. Throw whatever labels you want on it, but that's where this is headed. The tags will still be R and D but the positioning for both will have shifted left. Don't flip out on me either, because I'm not saying I automatically have a problem with it. Republicans are going to mirror a lot of where Obama was during his Presidency in short order. Obama himself is going to have to shift his views further left to even be considered a Democrat anymore and it's apparent he already has begun to. Bill Clinton's Presidency is looking downright 2020 Republican at this point.

The day the GOP comes running back left to be "the old Democrats" is the day I eat my shoe OR are you making a distinction between Republican and GOPer and saying those who were Republican before this migration right, who have been left behind by the party will be "the old Democrats"?

 

[sho nuff]

You're a Democrat.

Yeah...and as I get older I find myself more and more inline with the democratic party than today's GOP.

I think there are some cross platform stuff in there...and some more progressive issues.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

The day the GOP comes running back left to be "the old Democrats" is the day I eat my shoe OR are you making a distinction between Republican and GOPer and saying those who were Republican before this migration right, who have been left behind by the party will be "the old Democrats"?

I'm talking about their policies and where their policies are headed, not what they'll identify themselves as. As the progressive wing of the Democratic party shifts further left, it opens room for Republicans to inevitably embrace things like legalized marijuana, and criminal justice reform. There isn't anywhere here who believes there's any chance this country moves further right, is there?

 

[The Commish]

I'm talking about their policies and where their policies are headed, not what they'll identify themselves as. As the progressive wing of the Democratic party shifts further left, it opens room for Republicans to inevitably embrace things like legalized marijuana, and criminal justice reform. There isn't anywhere here who believes there's any chance this country moves further right, is there?

I don't see any stopping the sprint to the right honestly.  With every environmental regulation rolled back, every distribution of wealth to the rich on the backs of the middle class, every detention of asylum seekers etc that's a step to the "right".  There is zero indication that I can see planning on reversing course....not this GOP.

I don't think the "country" is going to move, but we weren't talking about "the country".  We were talking about the political parties.  It should be pretty clear that our current set of representatives, isn't a very accurate representation of "the country" as a whole.  Perhaps that changes with this Census, but I'm not holding my breath...gerrymandering is going to be TOUGH to overcome.

ETA:  I was hoping you were making the latter point, but it appears that's not the case.  I disagree with the former completely.

 

[RCon]

Yankee will come around on election alternatives to first past the post, he's too smart not to (he may already have and I'm just reading things that aren't there).

Rich, you should support the Fair Representation Act since it will likely provide you with many more choices than either Column A or Column B.

I haven't read any of the details on this yet, just read a quick summary this morning, I think based on one of your posts in another thread.  What I read sounded promising.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

I don't see any stopping the sprint to the right honestly.  With every environmental regulation rolled back, every distribution of wealth to the rich on the backs of the middle class, every detention of asylum seekers etc that's a step to the "right".  

I don't think the "country" is going to move, but we weren't talking about "the country".  We were talking about the political parties.  It should be pretty clear that our current set of representatives, isn't a very accurate representation of "the country" as a whole.  Perhaps that changes with this Census, but I'm not holding my breath...gerrymandering is going to be TOUGH to overcome.

Whaaaat??? Republicans don't even have a voting block to move further right. You're taking the remaining extremes you don't agree with and applying them as evidence the Republican party is doubling down. Republicans don't even care about national debt anymore. More and more of them are fine with high taxes on the rich and those evil corporations. The country is moving left as a whole and it's forcing the Republican party to move with it.

 

[The Commish]

Whaaaat??? Republicans don't even have a voting block to move further right. You're taking the remaining extremes you don't agree with and applying them as evidence the Republican party is doubling down. Republicans don't even care about national debt anymore. More and more of them are fine with high taxes on the rich and those evil corporations. The country is moving left as a whole and it's forcing the Republican party to move with it.

I gave you specific areas where the GOP is pushing right at this moment.  If you are arguing the GOP has become "extreme", I'd agree...that's my point.  Everything I listed they are actively doing.  I'll believe what you're asserting when they begin to create policies that do these things, like taxing the rich.  Republicans haven't cared about the national debt since I've been alive.  Some might just now be realizing that the talk has been officially rendered useless by their blatant disregard for the deficits and debt, but that doesn't change the fact that it's been that way for a long time.

And I should pause here and make crystal clear the scales I am using.  For example talking about oversight and regulation, "less government oversight/regulation" = Republican "more government oversight/regulation" = Dem.  In that light, it is completely dishonest to say the GOP is running anywhere but "right" on that scale in terms of environment.  

ETA:  They don't need a huge voting block of people to agree with them.  They just need the districts carved a certain way.  This is why I was asking before if you were making a distinction between Republicans in general and the GOP in office today who is leading this charge right.  You seemed to say that's not what you were saying.  If it is, then I'd agree to a large extent, but IMO "Republican" and "today's GOP" need to be redefined.  They aren't as synonymous as they once were.

 

[RCon]

I'd agree that GOP politicians have taken a hard right turn over the last 15-20 years.  Heck, Mitt Romney, the GOP candidate for POTUS only 8 years ago, is currently seen as wildly out of touch by the rest of the party.  Certainly, the very concept of nuance is seen as anathema in today's GOP.  Frankly, I think this is what bothers me the most.

That said, I still have some beliefs that tend towards the conservative side.  I'm a believer that the benefits of voter ID outweigh the potential drawbacks.  I'm generally not a big fan of affirmative action policies, although I understand there's tremendous room for nuance here.  I'm not opposed to higher taxation on the rich, but it drives me nuts that typical Democrat proposals seem to impact what I'd refer to as the "upper middle class" far more than "the rich".

 

[lakerstan]

...especially with the same states in the same order every time

That would be pretty cool to do it NBA draft style 

 

[roadkill1292]

That would be pretty cool to do it NBA draft style 

I don't follow basketball, could you flesh this out a little for me?

FTR, I currently favor the "Delaware Plan" first proposed by a subcommittee of the RNC 20 years ago but I'm open to better systems.

 

[lakerstan]

I don't follow basketball, could you flesh this out a little for me?

FTR, I currently favor the "Delaware Plan" first proposed by a subcommittee of the RNC 20 years ago but I'm open to better systems.

Just a drawing to see which state has their primary first, second, third, etc.  

Not serious, by the way - I know there are a lot of things that would prohibit that from actually happening.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I'd agree that GOP politicians have taken a hard right turn over the last 15-20 years.  Heck, Mitt Romney, the GOP candidate for POTUS only 8 years ago, is currently seen as wildly out of touch by the rest of the party.  Certainly, the very concept of nuance is seen as anathema in today's GOP.  Frankly, I think this is what bothers me the most.

That said, I still have some beliefs that tend towards the conservative side.  I'm a believer that the benefits of voter ID outweigh the potential drawbacks.  I'm generally not a big fan of affirmative action policies, although I understand there's tremendous room for nuance here.  I'm not opposed to higher taxation on the rich, but it drives me nuts that typical Democrat proposals seem to impact what I'd refer to as the "upper middle class" far more than "the rich".

This has been true for a long time. That epiphany drove me away from the GOP in the late 80s/early 90s. Not a big fan of anti-intellectualism & populism.

If you had asked me after I had voted in three Presidential elections if I would be a lifelong Republican, probably would have said “absolutely” or “I don’t foresee any reason why not.” Flip the question 28 years later, cannot imagine ever going back.

Pretty wide chasm between my current weltanschauung and the Republican worldview. 

 

[tommyGunZ]

This is a great list and interesting reading, but I think most voters vote on the basis of 3-5 top priority values.

I also think most people if they went 20-30 deep on their values list would have a range of conservative, liberal, libertarian and demsoc/socialist values ranging from core to aspirational.

I agree with this. IMO the most tired and lazy narrative in politics today is the idea that any party represents anyone's worldview and policy preferences 100% of the time. Even those of us who are proud Democrats don't buy into each and every piece of the platform entirely.  

The notion that being unaffiliated with a party is somehow intellectually superior in and of itself is a crock of ####. My Dad is a horrible offender - a lifelong conservative who moved left during the Obama years, he takes pride in self labeling as an "independent", and reminds me constantly that "no party tells me how to think", as if those of us registered with a party are mindless drones. Many of us have simply realized that even with it's warts, one of the big parties reflects enough of our worldview and believe it's the best vehicle with which to enable the change we want.  

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Republicans are going to be the old Democrats. And the old Democrats who have shifted further left are going to be the Progressives. Throw whatever labels you want on it, but that's where this is headed. The tags will still be R and D but the positioning for both will have shifted left. Don't flip out on me either, because I'm not saying I automatically have a problem with it. Republicans are going to mirror a lot of where Obama was during his Presidency in short order. Obama himself is going to have to shift his views further left to even be considered a Democrat anymore and it's apparent he already has begun to. Bill Clinton's Presidency is looking downright 2020 Republican at this point.

I don't know how many times during the first few years of Obama's term I posted he was to the right of Reagan.   Not sure I disagree with you or things have just come full circle.   

 

[Mr Anonymous]

I don't know how many times during the first few years of Obama's term I posted he was to the right of Reagan.   Not sure I disagree with you or things have just come full circle.   

I don't think we're in disagreement, at least not in the general sense, so I'll go with things coming full circle.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I'd agree that GOP politicians have taken a hard right turn over the last 15-20 years.  Heck, Mitt Romney, the GOP candidate for POTUS only 8 years ago, is currently seen as wildly out of touch by the rest of the party.  Certainly, the very concept of nuance is seen as anathema in today's GOP.  Frankly, I think this is what bothers me the most.

That said, I still have some beliefs that tend towards the conservative side.  I'm a believer that the benefits of voter ID outweigh the potential drawbacks.  I'm generally not a big fan of affirmative action policies, although I understand there's tremendous room for nuance here.  I'm not opposed to higher taxation on the rich, but it drives me nuts that typical Democrat proposals seem to impact what I'd refer to as the "upper middle class" far more than "the rich".

I'm not sure that the forty year movement of the GOP has really been on the political spectrum at all.   Maybe its just wishful thinking but I think much of your list are positions from the "right".   Not sure what exactly to call the axis that they moved along but is it really the political spectrum?     

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

True transparency and anti-corruption efforts in government

I'm wondering what "true transparency" means here?   I probably agree with you almost entirely here, but of the items on the list this is the one I could potentially cross out.   I don't think you are going here, but I can run with this in ways in my mind where things are so open that government can't actually do anything due to avoiding fears of unseemly appearances.

 

[RCon]

True transparency and anti-corruption efforts in government

I'm wondering what "true transparency" means here?   I probably agree with you almost entirely here, but of the items on the list this is the one I could potentially cross out.   I don't think you are going here, but I can run with this in ways in my mind where things are so open that government can't actually do anything due to avoiding fears of unseemly appearances.

Fine line to walk, certainly.  I'd start with instant and open access to all campaign donations.  I would want much broader FOIA powers.  For example, why is economic data and evidence from antitrust lawsuits hidden?  That should be public knowledge.  I'm not up for making a specific list at the moment, but suffice to say I think government hides far too much for no good reason.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Fine line to walk, certainly.  I'd start with instant and open access to all campaign donations.  I would want much broader FOIA powers.  For example, why is economic data and evidence from antitrust lawsuits hidden?  That should be public knowledge.  I'm not up for making a specific list at the moment, but suffice to say I think government hides far too much for no good reason.

Oh they have their reasons...

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

but suffice to say I think government hides far too much for no good reason.

Don't know how many times I have posted congressional testimony where national security experts asserted that between 50 and 90% of what is classified is inappropriately classified.  And that a good portion (though I'm lacking precision here) is classified simply because the information is embarrassing.  So preaching to the choir.   (And these guys are likely pretty paranoid so those numbers are low.)

open access to all campaign donations

broader FOIA powers

I'm not up for making a specific list at the moment

I think the examples are enough to get the gist.  Hope you don't mind the dicing and slicing.

 

[BladeRunner]

I agree with this. IMO the most tired and lazy narrative in politics today is the idea that any party represents anyone's worldview and policy preferences 100% of the time. Even those of us who are proud Democrats don't buy into each and every piece of the platform entirely.  

The notion that being unaffiliated with a party is somehow intellectually superior in and of itself is a crock of ####. My Dad is a horrible offender - a lifelong conservative who moved left during the Obama years, he takes pride in self labeling as an "independent", and reminds me constantly that "no party tells me how to think", as if those of us registered with a party are mindless drones. Many of us have simply realized that even with it's warts, one of the big parties reflects enough of our worldview and believe it's the best vehicle with which to enable the change we want.  

very well said! 

You get 50 virtual coins!

 

[dkp993]

Republicans are going to be the old Democrats. And the old Democrats who have shifted further left are going to be the Progressives. Throw whatever labels you want on it, but that's where this is headed. The tags will still be R and D but the positioning for both will have shifted left. Don't flip out on me either, because I'm not saying I automatically have a problem with it. Republicans are going to mirror a lot of where Obama was during his Presidency in short order. Obama himself is going to have to shift his views further left to even be considered a Democrat anymore and it's apparent he already has begun to. Bill Clinton's Presidency is looking downright 2020 Republican at this point.

That’s interesting any probably not far off.  

I’ve felt left out of a party for a long time.  The tea party movement pushed me left from the center right that I was, now the woke movement has pushed me back square in the middle I guess.  I don’t connect with either at this point honestly.  

 

[The Narrator]

Radical left lunatic. Welcome. We have snacks.

We intend to have snacks. We're not actually very organized. Your results may vary. 

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Republicans are going to be the old Democrats. And the old Democrats who have shifted further left are going to be the Progressives. Throw whatever labels you want on it, but that's where this is headed. The tags will still be R and D but the positioning for both will have shifted left. Don't flip out on me either, because I'm not saying I automatically have a problem with it. Republicans are going to mirror a lot of where Obama was during his Presidency in short order. Obama himself is going to have to shift his views further left to even be considered a Democrat anymore and it's apparent he already has begun to. Bill Clinton's Presidency is looking downright 2020 Republican at this point.

The Dems clearly can't help themselves. Can't even call it shifting to left anymore. They're catapulting further to the left. All at a time when if they didn't pander so much they'd be in position to sweep elections being somewhat moderate. Instead all that pandering is going to force them to the fringe and open up the middle for Republicans who choose to take it. The timeline is accelerating.

 

[The Commish]

The Dems clearly can't help themselves. Can't even call it shifting to left anymore. They're catapulting further to the left. All at a time when if they didn't pander so much they'd be in position to sweep elections being somewhat moderate. Instead all that pandering is going to force them to the fringe and open up the middle for Republicans who choose to take it. The timeline is accelerating.

So far any Republican not sprinting to the right that would fit the criteria you label here in bold has elected to quit the party (or give up running for reelection) rather than act on the bold.  Republicans aren't coming back to the middle any time soon....not while Donald Trump is their face.  What happens after that?  Who knows, but for now, it's not happening.   There is a significant group of people left behind by this recent movement.  I can't find much evidence at all the GOP cares or is attempting to reach out to those people.

The most bizarre part of your post is this claim that the Dems are moving left.  Joe Biden is their nominee.  He's probably the MOST center of all the 948 people who were running for office this time around and they settled on him.  Perhaps pause for a second and consider that the appearance of Biden being a "shift to the left" might just be the perspective of someone who's running towards the right as Biden stands there and watches?

 

[Mr Anonymous]

So far any Republican not sprinting to the right that would fit the criteria you label here in bold has elected to quit the party (or give up running for reelection) rather than act on the bold.  Republicans aren't coming back to the middle any time soon....not while Donald Trump is their face.  What happens after that?  Who knows, but for now, it's not happening.   There is a significant group of people left behind by this recent movement.  I can't find much evidence at all the GOP cares or is attempting to reach out to those people.

The most bizarre part of your post is this claim that the Dems are moving left.  Joe Biden is their nominee.  He's probably the MOST center of all the 948 people who were running for office this time around and they settled on him.  Perhaps pause for a second and consider that the appearance of Biden being a "shift to the left" might just be the perspective of someone who's running towards the right as Biden stands there and watches?

You really need a course in reading comprehension. (Reminds me of the day you wasted trying to claim I didn't call on Republican governors to reopen safely even as I quoted a dozen posts where I said that very thing.)

I didn't say that Republicans will seize the opportunity to be more centric, I said the door is wide open for them if they are smart enough to run through it. And if you don't see how Progressives are pulling the Democratic Party further left, then you've been residing under a rock.

 

[Manster]

You lost me at universal basic income....

 

[The Commish]

You really need a course in reading comprehension. (Reminds me of the day you wasted trying to claim I didn't call on Republican governors to reopen safely even as I quoted a dozen posts where I said that very thing.)

I didn't say that Republicans will seize the opportunity to be more centric, I said the door is wide open for them if they are smart enough to run through it. And if you don't see how Progressives are pulling the Democratic Party further left, then you've been residing under a rock.

It shouldn't remind you of that as I never said that.  I do, however, continue to note, daily, your silence on states opening outside the government guidelines.  It's crystal clear you only cared if they didn't follow the guidelines in terms of being too slow....you don't seem to give two ####s that they are opening too fast.  It's one of the better examples of hypocrisy ever laid out on these boards.  Congrats?  I'm not sure I need the course in reading here. 

I also didn't say that you said they WOULD seize the opportunity.  I said there is no evidence to suggest they would and there isn't.  They are sprinting right faster than I have seen any party move ever.  I also fully acknowledge that there are factions in the Dem party who want to drag the party left.  Over time, that might very well happen and if it does the same thing you write here about the opportunity for Republicans will hold true for moderate Democrats.  Probably one of the most "water is wet" observations ever, but an observation nonetheless. 

That said, those wanting to drag the Dems left aren't having all that much success if you consider the fact that Biden is their choice.  That's exactly the opposite of what they want.  The reason I feel the GOP is further down that path rests squarely on the shoulders of Trump.  He is clear and irrefutable evidence that the GOP is, indeed, full sprint to the right.  Cherry on top is the self labeling of "RINO" for anyone offering resistance/pushback to that sprint.  

The Dems appear to be on the same track, but they are just starting down the path.  They still have time to fix it..will they?  Who knows.

 

[roadkill1292]

A reminder of something I've said before, if you want more legitimate choices (defined as having a realistic chance of winning seats in Congress) on your ballots, ask your Rep to support the Fair Representation Act. 

If the FRA ever passes -- and it's going to be up to the Democrats to do so, something they've disappointed me on so far -- I could see the Democratic Party formally fracturing in the future. The Republican Party, which is far far more cohesive, might even wind up as the largest party in Congress. But I strongly suspect that it would only be a plurality and not a majority and that distinction matters a lot.

 

[ren hoek]

I've been voting since the 80s.  I've likely posted here longer than some of you have been alive.  My politics have changed over time, partly due to changes in my thinking over time, partly due to changes in the parties, and partly due to changes in the world.  I've given myself a number of political labels over time.  I've called myself a Republican.  I've called myself a libertarian (small L).  I've called myself a left-leaning libertarian (again, small L).  I've called myself an independent.

These days, I think I may identify most closely with progressives.  Maybe I'm still a left-leaning libertarian.  What party am I?

To me you'd be considered a left libertarian.  Maybe a progressive even.  I think the outer bounds of the Green Party would look a lot more alien to you than the outer bounds of the Libertarian Party.  

I'm usually inclined to trash the L party for fielding really cringe candidates that are actually just washed up Republicans, but I like Jo Jorgensen a lot, I think she's very impressive.  I don't like the Green candidate Howie Hawkins.  Thanks for sharing, hope we can all find something that fits.