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What's wrong with Vick.... (1 Viewer)

_4_

Footballguy
Sure, the WR situation is laughable in Atlanta...but the fact that Warrick Dunn only has 98 yards receiving may be the root of the problem when it comes to Vick and the Atlanta O getting into a comfort zone in the passing game. Over his 9 previous years he has averaged 4 catches over 20 yards, and at least 1 over 40 every year. Through 11 games this year his long is a 15 yard catch. He is averaging almost 2 yards fewer per catch than he has averaged for his career. His first 9 years he averaged 44 catches per year - this year he has 14 through 11 games. When he has taken the ball via reception this year he has converted 7 first downs in 14 receptions....

Hey....Mike.....

:hey: <----Warrick Dunn.....open.....

 
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I remember about 4 drops Dunn has had and 1 that went off his fingertips for an INT. But its how the offense is setup, if Dunn isn't there blocking Vick would even get more pressure. The offensive line isnt good enough in pass blocking to allow Dunn to consistently get out the backfield.

 
I remember about 4 drops Dunn has had and 1 that went off his fingertips for an INT. But its how the offense is setup, if Dunn isn't there blocking Vick would even get more pressure. The offensive line isnt good enough in pass blocking to allow Dunn to consistently get out the backfield.
True.But how bout some screen passes?
 
The problem with Vick is his accuracy. His career completion percentage is just over 53%. This year he is around 51%. But until he can get close to 60% or better, he will never reach the next level. He has all the tools, but the ATL coaching staff needs to figure out a way to get him closer to 60%.

Part of that is WR drops, but every QB deals with that problem from time to time. I think a top tier WR like Harrison, Holt, or Owens would improve Vick's accuracy numbers by up to 5%. Just look at what the addition of Owens did for McNabb's completion average in 2004. It jumped from 58% to 64%. But the rest of the problem is on Vick. He needs to improve his mechanics and vision to get it done.

 
I remember about 4 drops Dunn has had and 1 that went off his fingertips for an INT. But its how the offense is setup, if Dunn isn't there blocking Vick would even get more pressure. The offensive line isnt good enough in pass blocking to allow Dunn to consistently get out the backfield.
True.But how bout some screen passes?
Exactly. I don't have anything to back it up but memor, and if memory serves, most of Dunn's big yardage receptions came off of screens....
 
It is SO funny how often I read a thread in the Pool on subjects we discussed a few days ago in the round table.

Check the roundtable tomorrow - Vick's passing game woes are a center of our dicsussion.

 
It is SO funny how often I read a thread in the Pool on subjects we discussed a few days ago in the round table.Check the roundtable tomorrow - Vick's passing game woes are a center of our dicsussion.
Was Dunn's diminished roll in the passing game addressed? Preview of the discussion?
 
......it pretty much is just that his WRs cant catch. He isnt very accurate but he has been putting the ball on them this year and they have not been doing him any favors. He has made tremendous strides in accuracy this year I think, and I have watched every game he has ever played

 
It is SO funny how often I read a thread in the Pool on subjects we discussed a few days ago in the round table.

Check the roundtable tomorrow - Vick's passing game woes are a center of our dicsussion.
haven't read it yet, but my guess it going to go something like this ...........Michael Vick can't catch the ball too.

He is hitting guys right in the hands and right between the numbers. There is a serious case of drops going on in Atlanta - guess they caught something from the '04 Seahawks............

 
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Why aren't completion statistics based off the same logic that baseball uses for ERA. Errors in baseball don't count towards ERA, why do dropped passes count towards completion percentage? Sure some drops would be hard to judge, but so are some errors in baseball. I think anything that touches the wide receivers hands and isn't caught shouldn't be a knock against a qb's completion %. Just a thought.

 
If I am not mistakem in Joey Harringtons last 2 seasons in Detroit the Lions led the league in drops..if not led they were right up there. Yet I never heard a word about how many drops the Lions had. That is part of the game. Harrington completed around 57% of his passes his last two years in Detroit.

Everytime Vick stinks it up it never seems to be his fault..WRs can`t catch, coach puts in bad scheme, the ball was slick. The buc has to stop somewhere.

 
Might want to read this article. Bold parts in particular

National Football League News Wire

ATLANTA -- After watching the Atlanta Falcons lose their

fourth straight game, owner Arthur Blank grabbed a front-row seat

in the interview room to listen in on what Jim Mora and Michael

Vick had to say.

Blank also pored over a stat sheet, whispering some thoughts to

his top lieutenant while trying to figure out how another season

that began with such promise has totally unraveled heading into the

final month.

This owner demands immediate results. If things don't turn

around over the next five weeks, the Falcons are certainly headed

for big changes -- starting with several members of Mora's staff and

maybe extending all the way to the head coach himself.

"Ever since I've been here, we've had high expectations,"

Blank said. "We did not build this team to be .500. We thought

this team was capable of making a playoff run. Anytime you fall

short of that, it's disappointing."

Technically, Atlanta (5-6) still has time to turns things around

in the mediocre NFC, where 6-5 would be good enough for the wild

card if the season ended today.

But after going 0-for-November, the Falcons are below .500 for

the first time in Mora's three-year tenure and giving off few signs

of being a team that can pull out of its slide before it's too

late.

Three of the losses during past month were by double-figure

margins -- the only exception being an inexcusable 17-13 home loss

to woeful Cleveland (3-8). The Falcons were blown out 30-14 at

Detroit, one of only two games the Lions have won this season. Last

Sunday, Atlanta was all but eliminated from the NFC West race by a

31-13 loss to the Saints, who essentially have a three-game lead on

the Falcons when the tiebreaker is factored in.

What makes this all the more troubling is just how familiar it

seems.

A year ago, coming off a giddy run to the NFC championship game

in Mora's rookie season as a head coach, the Falcons started 6-2

and were thinking Super Bowl. They wound up losing six of their

last eight, extending the 40-year-old franchise's inglorious streak

of never having back-to-back winning seasons.

Now, it's happening all over again. In one short month, the

Falcons have gone from being 5-2 and angling for home-field

advantage in the playoffs to showing all the telltale signs of a

team in disarray.

Early last week, Mora's father -- the longtime NFL coach of the

same name -- criticized Vick's passing skills and agreed that he's a

"coach killer." As the quarterback headed toward the locker room

after the loss to the Saints, he was heckled by some fans and

responded with an obscene gesture.

As the face of the franchise, everything starts with Vick. But

the blame for this downfall extends beyond No. 7.

The offense is a mess, an incompatible juxtaposition of

coordinator Greg Knapp's West Coast-style passing schemes and the

zone-blocking tactics used by the guys up front, who answer to de

facto line coach Alex Gibbs.

Vick has never taken to Knapp's philosophy, which relies on

short drops and quick reads that seem ill-suited for a 6-foot

quarterback who has trouble seeing over his linemen and is more

effective when he ad-libs. Vick is the 25th-rated quarterback in

the NFL and, most stunning, has never put up better numbers playing

in Knapp's offense than he did in his one full season working with

former coach Dan Reeves.

Meanwhile, the shadowy Gibbs -- who's technically a

"consultant" -- prefers smaller, quicker linemen who'll carry out

his controversial blocking tactics in the running game but are

leakier than a colander when it comes to pass blocking. Vick may be

the best running quarterback in NFL history, but he's still managed

to get sacked 29 times playing behind a no-name group that has zero

Pro Bowls on its collective resume.

When Vick does get off a pass, tight end Alge Crumpler is about

the only reliable receiver on the team. Former first-round picks

Michael Jenkins and Roddy White have been major disappointments.

Ashley Lelie hasn't had the impact everyone expected when he came

to the Falcons in a trade for T.J. Duckett.

Last week, Vick's receivers dropped five passes, the most

damaging of those coming early in the fourth quarter when a

wide-open White let the ball slip from his hands at the New Orleans

10 after the defender fell down. That snuffed the life out of the

Falcons, who were down 21-13 at the time but totally fell apart the

rest of the way.

Mora insists he's not planning any changes on his staff, but

what else do you expect him to say about guys -- several of them

close friends -- who are still on the payroll? Clearly, Knapp and

receivers coach George Stewart are on shaky ground. And the Falcons

wouldn't be able to hire a competent replacement for Knapp as long

as Gibbs is hanging around.

If the Falcons do look for someone else to run the offense, the

first priority is getting a coach who can take advantage of Vick's

wondrous talents. This team has too much invested in No. 7 to give

up on him (sorry, all you Atlanta fans who want to give backup Matt

Schaub a chance).

A new coordinator would certainly want to upgrade the protectors

up front and the guys who are paid to catch passes, not drop them.

Also, there might be some philosophical changes, such as more deep

passing routes to capitalize on Vick's enormous arm strength

(perhaps the strongest in the league, though his accuracy is

clearly lacking).

Mora got a contract extension before the season, but that means

little in the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately NFL. The Falcons

touted their 45-year-old coach as one of the profession's rising

stars after his first season, but Blank -- who prowls the sidelines

during games a la Jerry Jones and takes an active role in personnel

decisions -- shows all the signs of being an impatient boss.

"I believe we have the right folks in the building," Blank

said in a tepid show of support for his coach. "They have the

talent and enthusiasm to get it done, but obviously we've got to

execute better and be a little more consistent."

In all fairness to Mora and his assistants, the Falcons have

been plagued by injuries. Two starters are out for the year, and

another might be finished. Plus, defensive stalwarts John Abraham

and Ed Hartwell have played only three games apiece.

Then again, Atlanta must have known it was taking a chance when

it gave up a first-round pick to sign the injury prone Abraham to a

huge contract.

The three-time Pro Bowl end dominated Carolina in Week 1 before

going down in the closing minutes with a groin injury that he's

still trying to overcome. After abdominal surgery, he returned to

face the Saints last week, but didn't even show up on the stat

sheet.

If someone doesn't show up soon for the Falcons, this team is

headed for a major shakeup.
 
Vick's issues begin with his WRs, who just can't catch on a consistent basis.

It happened last week just like it has all year. Vick is putting the ball in good spots, but the pass catchers are letting him down.

Even Crumpler and Dunn are guilty of this.

Now, I would agree with the OP that Dunn should get more targets, but if Vick had a higher quality receiver his numbers would be vastly improved. Even with the current group, Vick produces like a starting RB half of the time and also has the added production of a mediocre passing attack. When combined, he usually ranks in the Top 5 for QBs.

 
Drops tend to even out. Last year, Seattles receivers dropped more passes than any other team. It didn't stop Hasselback from being successful.

I think it's become an acceptable excuse for Visk-apologists to use drops as the reason he's not been successful. Some drops are also the result of lack-of-touch.

 
I haven't seen every Falcon game this season by a long stretch but I did see the game this past sunday. And this past sunday Vick played an excellent game and it was as simple as his WRs dropping the passes. There were multiple, terrible drops; balls deep downfield on the money that the WRs simple stone handed. The worst was a pass to Roddy White were Vick saw a blitzing LB coming right at him, stood in the pocket and delivered a perfect pass right to White's numbers and then got destroyed by the LB right as he released the ball. Only to have White drop the pass that him right in his hands while he was standing flat footed wide open.

That doesn't mean that they don't need to run more screen passes or that the offense doesn't fit Vick's skills. But last sunday it was as simple as the WR dropping the ball.

 
Drops tend to even out. Last year, Seattles receivers dropped more passes than any other team. It didn't stop Hasselback from being successful.I think it's become an acceptable excuse for Visk-apologists to use drops as the reason he's not been successful. Some drops are also the result of lack-of-touch.
As for the whole season- I can't say...But as for last week - I seriously was starting to feel bad for the guy. It was ALL on the receivers. I didn't see him throw a bad pass last week.
 
Drops tend to even out. Last year, Seattles receivers dropped more passes than any other team. It didn't stop Hasselback from being successful.I think it's become an acceptable excuse for Visk-apologists to use drops as the reason he's not been successful. Some drops are also the result of lack-of-touch.
This is not exactly true. For one thing, Atlanta attempts fewer passes than most teams, and its WRs have more drops and make fewer "makeable" plays than most teams. That combination means the WR play has a greater impact on Vick than it does on most QBs.Read the article Big Score posted above. It summarizes the issues very nicely. Sure, Vick isn't a great passer. But he could be a "good enough" passer to be a great QB with his running ability is factored in. That will probably require an offense that is a better fit for him and better WR play.As for Dunn, while his catches are down this season from last year, IMO it is not valid to compare them to his career numbers, which are below:
Code:
+--------------------------+-------------------------+				 |		  Rushing		 |		Receiving		|+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards	Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1997 tam |  16 |   224	978	4.4	4 |	39	462  11.8	3 || 1998 tam |  16 |   245   1026	4.2	2 |	44	344   7.8	0 || 1999 tam |  15 |   195	616	3.2	0 |	64	589   9.2	2 || 2000 tam |  16 |   248   1133	4.6	8 |	44	422   9.6	1 || 2001 tam |  13 |   158	447	2.8	3 |	68	557   8.2	3 || 2002 atl |  15 |   230	927	4.0	7 |	50	377   7.5	2 || 2003 atl |  11 |   125	672	5.4	3 |	37	336   9.1	2 || 2004 atl |  16 |   265   1106	4.2	9 |	29	294  10.1	0 || 2005 atl |  16 |   280   1416	5.1	3 |	29	220   7.6	1 || 2006 atl |  11 |   208	865	4.2	4 |	14	 98   7.0	0 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   | 145 |  2178   9186	4.2   43 |   418   3699   8.8   14 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
His numbers have been significantly lower since Mora arrived and installed the current offense. It isn't just this year.Career before Mora (1997-2003): 3.4/30.3/0.13 receiving per game (8.9 ypr)First 2 years under Mora (2004-2005): 1.8/16.1/0.03 receiving per game (8.9 ypr)This year (2006): 1.3/8.9/0 receiving per game (7.0 ypr)As others have said, Dunn is required to block more now. But I think it is also true that the Falcons offense under Mora has phased him out of the passing game to a degree. Is the only reason for that the need to have him blocking? Not sure. If they could get the ball to him more in space, it would seem to be a good thing. It is true that his ypr is down a bit this year, but 14 catches is a pretty small sample size.
 

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