Who is the #28 best basketball player of all-time? (1 Viewer)

[Frostillicus]

1. Michael Jordan (71%)
2. Lebron james (85%).
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (34%).
4. Wilt Chamberlain (31%).
5. Magic Johnson (33%).
6. Larry Bird (44%).
7. Bill Russell (67%).
8. Shaquille O'Neal (31%)
9. Tim Duncan (53%).
10. Hakeem Olajuwon (36%).
11. Kobe Bryant (37%).
12. Oscar Robertson (49%).
13. Stephen Curry (74%).
14. Julius Erving (37%).
15. Moses Malone (38%).
16. Kevin Durant (38%).
17. David Robinson (41%).
18. Jerry West (37%)
19. Charles Barkley (42%).
20. Kevin Garnett (27%).
21. Karl Malone (32%).
22. Elgin Baylor (29%).
23. Nikola Jokic (41%).
24. Giannis Antetokounmpo (45%).
25. Dirk Nowitzki (77%).
26. Scottie Pippen (29%).
27. Bob Pettit (34%).
28. ????????????

 

[nirad3]

Wade should be slotted here. I think he's kinda underrated, actually.

 

[TripItUp]

CP3 for reasons previously stated, Wade a respectable vote here too.

 

[Frostillicus]

I went with Stockton barely over Wade. Although Wade's 2005-2006 was the kind of season you want from an all-time great, I think it's time to recognize Stockton's career longevity brilliance: all-time leader in assists and steals with 9 times leading the league in assists. And he did finish top 10 in MVP voting five times.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I went with Stockton barely over Wade. Although Wade's 2005-2006 was the kind of season you want from an all-time great, I think it's time to recognize Stockton's career longevity brilliance: all-time leader in assists and steals with 9 times leading the league in assists. And he did finish top 10 in MVP voting five times.

His assist totals are suspect.

 

[Frostillicus]

I went with Stockton barely over Wade. Although Wade's 2005-2006 was the kind of season you want from an all-time great, I think it's time to recognize Stockton's career longevity brilliance: all-time leader in assists and steals with 9 times leading the league in assists. And he did finish top 10 in MVP voting five times.

His assist totals are suspect.

Perhaps, but still gets my vote.

 

[Frostillicus]

bumpy

 

[the moops]

I think Wade should be 5 or 10 places lower. Only two 1st Team All NBA, only two top 5 MVP votes, just about as inefficient as Kobe, terrible three point shooter, his team success without either Shaq or Lebron is suspect

 

[msudaisy26]

I think Wade should be 5 or 10 places lower. Only two 1st Team All NBA, only two top 5 MVP votes, just about as inefficient as Kobe, terrible three point shooter, his team success without either Shaq or Lebron is suspect

This is kind of where I am at with Wade. He is a very good player that had one magical playoff run, (and other good runs) but it is very close. IMO if he would have stepped up for LeBron in the 2011 finals against Dallas and been the finals MVP and won that extra title as the guy he would be top 25.

 

[Jayrod]

Kawhi Leonard is such an outlier, similar to Bill Russell. He just doesn't fit into the same boxes for easy comparison.

His accolades are a bizarre combination with 2x Finals MVP's & 2x DPOY, but no MVP's and only 2x 1st team all-NBA. His per game advanced stats are great, but his accumulative/counting stats are poor due to all of the time missed. He carried the the Raptors to a championship but has barely played for the Clippers these last two years.

I can't even decide if I like his personality. Is he cool or just weird? Is he a hard worker or lazy & selfish? He played his heart out for the Spurs until he demanded a trade and he is the greatest 2-way player in the last 10 years, but has barely played for the last 4.

He is ranking above everyone here in my mathematical calculations, but I just don't know if I can pick him.

The next man up is CP3 which seems like a much more sound pick, but based on accolades and advanced stats that I look at and value, Kawhi should have been #20.

 

[msudaisy26]

Kawhi Leonard is such an outlier, similar to Bill Russell. He just doesn't fit into the same boxes for easy comparison.

His accolades are a bizarre combination with 2x Finals MVP's & 2x DPOY, but no MVP's and only 2x 1st team all-NBA. His per game advanced stats are great, but his accumulative/counting stats are poor due to all of the time missed. He carried the the Raptors to a championship but has barely played for the Clippers these last two years.

I can't even decide if I like his personality. Is he cool or just weird? Is he a hard worker or lazy & selfish? He played his heart out for the Spurs until he demanded a trade and he is the greatest 2-way player in the last 10 years, but has barely played for the last 4.

He is ranking above everyone here in my mathematical calculations, but I just don't know if I can pick him.

The next man up is CP3 which seems like a much more sound pick, but based on accolades and advanced stats that I look at and value, Kawhi should have been #20.

If Kawhi had better counting stats he wouldn't even be a choice this late.

He reminds me of the bad boy Pistons. The Pistons were this blip on the radar between the Lakers, Celtics and Bulls dynasties.

Kawhi was the blip between all these all time great multi MVP winning players (LeBron, Curry, Giannis, Jokic).

 

[scoobus]

Tiebreaker

 

[Eephus]

Rick Barry would kick these other guys' asses and proceed to talk about his greatness for the next 40 years.

 

[msudaisy26]

Rick Barry would kick these other guys' asses and proceed to talk about his greatness for the next 40 years.

Talk to who? No like Barry enough to have a conversation with him.

 

[TripItUp]

Kawhi definitely >> Wade

As for this Stockton nonsense, I'm not a stat accumulator type. Great player. Belongs in the top 50, but not in my top 30 for various reasons. He's certainly not ahead of CP3.

 

[Jayrod]

Rick Barry's 1974-75 season is more impressive than Wade's 2005-06.

To start, instead of Shaq, Barry's next best player was a 21 yr old rookie Jamaal "Silk" Wilkes. The rest of the team was guys you've probably never heard of and none were noteworthy players.

That season, Barry averaged 30.6/6.2/5.7 with 2.9 steals. Those are mostly better than Wade's career highs.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Rick Barry would kick these other guys' asses and proceed to talk about his greatness for the next 40 years.

Talk to who? No like Barry enough to have a conversation with him.

That's never stopped him before

 

[Da Guru]

Rick Barry's 1974-75 season is more impressive than Wade's 2005-06.

To start, instead of Shaq, Barry's next best player was a 21 yr old rookie Jamaal "Silk" Wilkes. The rest of the team was guys you've probably never heard of and none were noteworthy players.

That season, Barry averaged 30.6/6.2/5.7 with 2.9 steals. Those are mostly better than Wade's career highs.

I like these threads as I look up stats.

Rick Barry was a 90.0% career free throw shooter using granny style..unreal. Also Barry only played his last season with the 3 point shot. So his PPG average would have been a few higher than after 3 point.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Rick Barry's 1974-75 season is more impressive than Wade's 2005-06.

To start, instead of Shaq, Barry's next best player was a 21 yr old rookie Jamaal "Silk" Wilkes. The rest of the team was guys you've probably never heard of and none were noteworthy players.

That season, Barry averaged 30.6/6.2/5.7 with 2.9 steals. Those are mostly better than Wade's career highs.

I like these threads as I look up stats.

Rick Barry was a 90.0% career free throw shooter using granny style..unreal. Also Barry only played his last season with the 3 point shot. So his PPG average would have been a few higher than after 3 point.

Actually just a hair under 90%, if you count his ABA stats it drops to 89.3%. Also he played 4 more seasons with a 3 point line in the ABA. His career average was 30%, averaging 0.6 makes per game.

Was probably the first player to force his way off a team as he sat out a season rather than play with the Warriors in 67-68, then when on to insult the state of Virginia and the entire south to get traded from the Squires to the Nets.

Then there's the watermelon grin comment that left Russell speechless, looking like he wanted to knock him out.

And Game 7 of the 76 WCF where he takes a cheap shot, has 3 Suns on him while his teammates watch. He sulks for a quarter-and-a-half, refusing to take a shot before getting taken out and the Warriors comeback to retain the lead while he's on the bench, only to lose it when he returned.

Quite possibly the most hated player in NBA history as he was detested by his teammates just as much as by his opponents.

I used to listen to KNBR when he had a show there (only listeened to him when he was on somebody else's show) and apparently he had a tshirt made that said "Hall of Famer" and wore it to the station the day after he was voted in. Guy is just a collosal d-bag

 

[Frostillicus]

Kawhi definitely >> Wade

As for this Stockton nonsense, I'm not a stat accumulator type. Great player. Belongs in the top 50, but not in my top 30 for various reasons. He's certainly not ahead of CP3.

CP3's best season: 22.8/11.0/5.5 with 2.8spg on 50/36/87 for an eFG of .528

Stockton's best season: 17.1/13.6/3.0 with 3.2spg on 54/24/86 for an eFG of .547.

Stockton was better at his peak, did it far longer, and had more team success. I would be interested in your argument for CP3 over him.

 

[Eephus]

I used to listen to KNBR when he had a show there (only listeened to him when he was on somebody else's show) and apparently he had a tshirt made that said "Hall of Famer" and wore it to the station the day after he was voted in. Guy is just a collosal d-bag

He was a terrible sports talk radio host but he's been a weirdly entertaining guest in Bay Area media over the decades. He brings some bizarre takes and goofy ventures to promote all filtered through a prism of narcissism.

Say what you will, Barry (or perhaps more accurately his wives) raised a good family. His kids were solid pros without the annoying traits of their dad.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I used to listen to KNBR when he had a show there (only listeened to him when he was on somebody else's show) and apparently he had a tshirt made that said "Hall of Famer" and wore it to the station the day after he was voted in. Guy is just a collosal d-bag

He was a terrible sports talk radio host but he's been a weirdly entertaining guest in Bay Area media over the decades. He brings some bizarre takes and goofy ventures to promote all filtered through a prism of narcissism.

Say what you will, Barry (or perhaps more accurately his wives) raised a good family. His kids were solid pros without the annoying traits of their dad.

He was the rare third wheel that could come on with The Razor and Mr. T and make Barbieri seem likeable.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Kawhi definitely >> Wade

As for this Stockton nonsense, I'm not a stat accumulator type. Great player. Belongs in the top 50, but not in my top 30 for various reasons. He's certainly not ahead of CP3.

CP3's best season: 22.8/11.0/5.5 with 2.8spg on 50/36/87 for an eFG of .528

Stockton's best season: 17.1/13.6/3.0 with 3.2spg on 54/24/86 for an eFG of .547.

Stockton was better at his peak, did it far longer, and had more team success. I would be interested in your argument for CP3 over him.

CP3 has a left hand

 

[Zow]

I went with Stockton barely over Wade. Although Wade's 2005-2006 was the kind of season you want from an all-time great, I think it's time to recognize Stockton's career longevity brilliance: all-time leader in assists and steals with 9 times leading the league in assists. And he did finish top 10 in MVP voting five times.

Agree completely with all of this.

 

[TripItUp]

Kawhi definitely >> Wade

As for this Stockton nonsense, I'm not a stat accumulator type. Great player. Belongs in the top 50, but not in my top 30 for various reasons. He's certainly not ahead of CP3.

CP3's best season: 22.8/11.0/5.5 with 2.8spg on 50/36/87 for an eFG of .528

Stockton's best season: 17.1/13.6/3.0 with 3.2spg on 54/24/86 for an eFG of .547.

Stockton was better at his peak, did it far longer, and had more team success. I would be interested in your argument for CP3 over him.

Yes, that's what the stat nerds would see...it's the same group that is pro-Lebron over Kobe.

Typically it's people who don't understand basketball so they like to simplify to a stats comparison game because that's easier to understand. This stat nerd group also tend to underestimate other important facets like something called "defense" and actually winning basketball games and chips.

 

[Frostillicus]

Kawhi definitely >> Wade

As for this Stockton nonsense, I'm not a stat accumulator type. Great player. Belongs in the top 50, but not in my top 30 for various reasons. He's certainly not ahead of CP3.

CP3's best season: 22.8/11.0/5.5 with 2.8spg on 50/36/87 for an eFG of .528

Stockton's best season: 17.1/13.6/3.0 with 3.2spg on 54/24/86 for an eFG of .547.

Stockton was better at his peak, did it far longer, and had more team success. I would be interested in your argument for CP3 over him.

Yes, that's what the stat nerds would see...it's the same group that is pro-Lebron over Kobe.

Typically it's people who don't understand basketball so they like to simplify to a stats comparison game because that's easier to understand. This stat nerd group also tend to underestimate other important facets like something called "defense" and actually winning basketball games and chips.

Yep, you got me. I never actually watched the game. Just study box scores all the time.

 

[Frostillicus]

Also, at no point did you make any kind of argument for CP3 over Stockton.

 

[Eephus]

Also, at no point did you make any kind of argument for CP3 over Stockton.

Defense? Number of teams?

 

[Frostillicus]

Also, at no point did you make any kind of argument for CP3 over Stockton.

Defense? Number of teams?

I don't know anything about defense. I don't understand the game.

 

[thecatch]

I was persuaded to change my vote to Stockton.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Stockton was better at his peak, did it far longer, and had more team success. I would be interested in your argument for CP3 over him.

I'll try to make one.

They were similar players, racked up assists and steals, but Paul was better at scoring and creating his own shot. He was the leading scorer on a 56-win Hornets team where the 2nd-best player was David West. Stockton never had to carry that kind of offensive burden since he played his whole career alongside #3 all-time in points.

If the two guys swap places for their careers, I doubt the 90s Jazz miss a beat, but I'm not so sure Stockton would thrive in some of the situations CP3 did.

 

[Frostillicus]

Stockton was better at his peak, did it far longer, and had more team success. I would be interested in your argument for CP3 over him.

I'll try to make one.

They were similar players, racked up assists and steals, but Paul was better at scoring and creating his own shot. He was the leading scorer on a 56-win Hornets team where the 2nd-best player was David West. Stockton never had to carry that kind of offensive burden since he played his whole career alongside #3 all-time in points.

If the two guys swap places for their careers, I doubt the 90s Jazz miss a beat, but I'm not so sure Stockton would thrive in some of the situations CP3 did.

Now this is a good argument. There's not much better basketball-wise than watching Paul when he decides to control that 12-15-footish area and get his own shot.

 

[Jayrod]

CP3 was better at his peak and was/is always better at getting his own shot than Stockton. Stockton was a better passer and better for longer and was better in the playoffs. Defensively they are very similar.

Advanced stats wise, CP3 is better and it isn't really close.

 

[Navin Johnson]

CP3 was better at his peak and was/is always better at getting his own shot than Stockton. Stockton was a better passer and better for longer and was better in the playoffs. Defensively they are very similar.

Advanced stats wise, CP3 is better and it isn't really close.

I don't think Stockton was a better passer

 

[Navin Johnson]

Stockton leading this is laughable. There are at least two better PGs presently on the pole

 

[Jayrod]

CP3 was better at his peak and was/is always better at getting his own shot than Stockton. Stockton was a better passer and better for longer and was better in the playoffs. Defensively they are very similar.

Advanced stats wise, CP3 is better and it isn't really close.

I don't think Stockton was a better passer

I do. Stockton was the gold standard of passing for a decade in the NBA.

How old are you? I'm not just talking about stats (which obviously favors Stockton). Stockton made difficult passes routine and has highlight reals to match anyone.

And I think Paul was a better overall player and rank him over Stockton but passing wise, Stockton has the edge.

 

[Navin Johnson]

CP3 was better at his peak and was/is always better at getting his own shot than Stockton. Stockton was a better passer and better for longer and was better in the playoffs. Defensively they are very similar.

Advanced stats wise, CP3 is better and it isn't really close.

I don't think Stockton was a better passer

I do. Stockton was the gold standard of passing for a decade in the NBA.

How old are you? I'm not just talking about stats (which obviously favors Stockton). Stockton made difficult passes routine and has highlight reals to match anyone.

And I think Paul was a better overall player and rank him over Stockton but passing wise, Stockton has the edge.

Stockton routinely made post entry passes from the left wing to the left block with his right hand. Look up the record breaking assist where he passes the ball across his body, exposing it to the defender. The crappy angle he takes with the pass instead of simply throwing a wrap around with his left forces Malone to release his seal in the post and retrieve the pass before it goes out of bounds. Malone catches the errant pass and shoots a baseline fadeaway, the basket obviously created by the bucket. If anything he was the gold standard of racking up questionable assists and parking himself on the left wing so he had the entire court to work back to his right hand.

As far as my age, I think I may have started playing basketball before you were born, not that it matters

 

[Frostillicus]

Ok, I'm wavering. I appreciate the actual discussion rather than simply claiming your opinion is superior and correct "because".

 

[Frostillicus]

One last bump

 

[Yo Mama]

One last bump

That’s what they all say.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Stockton made difficult passes routine and has highlight reals to match anyone.

If anything he was the gold standard of racking up questionable assists and parking himself on the left wing so he had the entire court to work back to his right hand.

There's probably some truth to both these posts, which is why point guards are tough to compare.

Assists only tell us that a guy made a pass and then the guy he passed to made a shot. They don't differentiate threading the needle through 3 defenders for a layup vs. an awkward entry pass to the post that ends in a contested 15-footer. I'm sure Stockton has plenty of both over the course of 15K assists, but I don't know of any stat that really breaks it down and how he would stack up vs. other high-assist guys.

 

[Jayrod]

Stockton made difficult passes routine and has highlight reals to match anyone.

If anything he was the gold standard of racking up questionable assists and parking himself on the left wing so he had the entire court to work back to his right hand.

There's probably some truth to both these posts, which is why point guards are tough to compare.

Assists only tell us that a guy made a pass and then the guy he passed to made a shot. They don't differentiate threading the needle through 3 defenders for a layup vs. an awkward entry pass to the post that ends in a contested 15-footer. I'm sure Stockton has plenty of both over the course of 15K assists, but I don't know of any stat that really breaks it down and how he would stack up vs. other high-assist guys.

The best thing about the NBA is that the season is long enough to level off most statistical outliers.

If you lead the league in assists for 9 straight seasons, you are a hell of a passer, even if most of those passes are "simple". Nobody can accomplish that feat by counting on guys to hit contested 15-footers.

 

[Jayrod]

CP3 was better at his peak and was/is always better at getting his own shot than Stockton. Stockton was a better passer and better for longer and was better in the playoffs. Defensively they are very similar.

Advanced stats wise, CP3 is better and it isn't really close.

I don't think Stockton was a better passer

I do. Stockton was the gold standard of passing for a decade in the NBA.

How old are you? I'm not just talking about stats (which obviously favors Stockton). Stockton made difficult passes routine and has highlight reals to match anyone.

And I think Paul was a better overall player and rank him over Stockton but passing wise, Stockton has the edge.

Stockton routinely made post entry passes from the left wing to the left block with his right hand. Look up the record breaking assist where he passes the ball across his body, exposing it to the defender. The crappy angle he takes with the pass instead of simply throwing a wrap around with his left forces Malone to release his seal in the post and retrieve the pass before it goes out of bounds. Malone catches the errant pass and shoots a baseline fadeaway, the basket obviously created by the bucket. If anything he was the gold standard of racking up questionable assists and parking himself on the left wing so he had the entire court to work back to his right hand.

As far as my age, I think I may have started playing basketball before you were born, not that it matters

Oh, OK.

You should credit your source next time.

 

[Navin Johnson]

CP3 was better at his peak and was/is always better at getting his own shot than Stockton. Stockton was a better passer and better for longer and was better in the playoffs. Defensively they are very similar.

Advanced stats wise, CP3 is better and it isn't really close.

I don't think Stockton was a better passer

I do. Stockton was the gold standard of passing for a decade in the NBA.

How old are you? I'm not just talking about stats (which obviously favors Stockton). Stockton made difficult passes routine and has highlight reals to match anyone.

And I think Paul was a better overall player and rank him over Stockton but passing wise, Stockton has the edge.

Stockton routinely made post entry passes from the left wing to the left block with his right hand. Look up the record breaking assist where he passes the ball across his body, exposing it to the defender. The crappy angle he takes with the pass instead of simply throwing a wrap around with his left forces Malone to release his seal in the post and retrieve the pass before it goes out of bounds. Malone catches the errant pass and shoots a baseline fadeaway, the basket obviously created by the bucket. If anything he was the gold standard of racking up questionable assists and parking himself on the left wing so he had the entire court to work back to his right hand.

As far as my age, I think I may have started playing basketball before you were born, not that it matters

Oh, OK.

You should credit your source next time.

I've posted that video several times in this Forum, so...

 

[Gally]

I like these threads as I look up stats.

Rick Barry was a 90.0% career free throw shooter using granny style..unreal. Also Barry only played his last season with the 3 point shot. So his PPG average would have been a few higher than after 3 point.

There is a really interesting Gladwell podcast talking about shooting granny style and why Wilt, Shaq, etc should have done that but their ego's couldn't take the teasing they would get for shooting that way. Barry on the other hand didn't care at all what other's thought so he shot granny because it is the superior method and he didn't care what kind of crap he would get for it.

If I can find a link I will try and post it.

The Big Man Can’t Shoot | Revisionist History Podcast | Malcolm Gladwell

Wilt Chamberlain’s brilliant career was marred by one, deeply inexplicable decision: He chose a shooting technique that made him one of the worst foul shoote...

youtu.be